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Numbers Of NCOs In US Army In Iraq  
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3440 times:

What is the ratio of Sergeants and other NCOs to officers and other ranks in the US military in Iraq?

http://icasualties.org/oif/Stats.aspx:

shows of 2704 deaths, there were 451 sergeants + 78 sergeant first class, 345 lance corporals, and 228 corporals, 85 captains.

This seems a high proportion of NCOs. I have noticed that most of the honour rolls on the Lehrer Newshour recently show 30 to 50% sergeants and another 30 to 40% corporals/lcs, so that other ranks are usually below 30%.

Does this reflect the force composition, or the risk factors in combat? Are there other factors?

This is not an invitation to re-run the Iraq war, but it is an attempt to try to understand what is going on. We hear much criticism of the war, but little seems to be written so far on the reality of combat there.

In WWI, the lower rank British officers had astonishing casualty rates especially in the first few years due to their having to stand up on the trench walls to lead a charge against machine guns, initially while brandishing a sword.

Is there an explanation for what seem disproportionate losses among NCOs based on tactics?

I know there is a range of possible explanations. What is known in factual terms of what is going on?

25 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3439 times:

Quoting Baroque (Thread starter):
This seems a high proportion of NCOs.

The US military has always been heavy with NCOs. Sergeants run the army.


User currently offlineUH60FtRucker From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3412 times:

Quoting Baroque (Thread starter):
http://icasualties.org/oif/Stats.aspx:

Hey just to let you know, your link doesn't work. You need to remove the " : " at the end of the link.

Quoting Baroque (Thread starter):

Anyway to answer your question, the reason is simple - we are very heavy in E3-E5 ranks. They make up half of the fighting force. The very high number of those ranks, coupled with the fact that they're the ones going out there everyday - is your answer.

Also just look at the number of O-3 (captain) causalities. Just like how in the enlisted world is heavy in E3-E5s, the commissioned side has a ton of captains. And captains are the ones leading the patrols out on the streets. Once you go to Major, Lite Colonel or Full Bird - you job is more centered around the HQ and not out on patrol.

-UH60


User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 3, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3380 times:

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 2):
Hey just to let you know, your link doesn't work. You need to remove the " : " at the end of the link.

Sorry about that, and thanks for the correction. I will just go and belt the daylights out of Mozilla and clipboard!

There, that feels better!!

So what you are saying is that when we see TV film of a group in Iraq of say 10 going off down a road in front of a TV camera, close to 50% of them will be NCOs. It just makes me feel I have no idea at all about how the US army is organized.

I had noticed that being a captain was another unhealthy occupation.

The age distribution of the casualties on the Lehrer honour roll is interesting too. Were it not for the sergeants, there would only be one mode at about 20, with the sergeants, there are two with the upper one about 35.

Does anyone else out there notice the makeup of the lists on Newshour? I find the item very moving. And I have just heard that Phillip Adams, a known leftie on Oz radio also watches with interest, but he has not noticed the high count of sergeants.


User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3373 times:

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 1):
The US military has always been heavy with NCOs. Sergeants run the army.

Damn skippy . . .

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 2):
Once you go to Major, Lite Colonel or Full Bird - you job is more centered around the HQ and not out on patrol.

Chairwarmers . . . . with few exceptions . . . .

A tank platoon will have 4 tanks. Each tank* has at least 1 NCO, usually an E6 Staff Sergeant) as the commander. The gunner is a senior E4 (Corporal) possibly an E5 (Sergeant). The loader and driver are of lesser rank, E1 (Private), E2 (Private) and E3 (Private First Class) or an E4 (Specialist).

*Except as below

Each tank platoon will have generally one Senior NCO, an E7 (Sergeant First Class) that is the Platoon Sergeant. It will also generally have one Lieutenant, an O-2 (Second Lieutenant) or occasionally an O-1 (First Lieutenant).

So the Army is NCO heavy in the mid-grades. E5 and E6. A tad heavy on E-7. And lighter in the senior ranks E-8 (Master Sergeant or First Sergeant) and E9 (Sergeant Major and Command Sergeant Major).

Each type of unit varies . . . Infantry, Artillery, Armor, etc, all have different TO&E . . . Table of Organization and Equipment . . . that outlines personnel and equipment for combat units and TDA . . . Table of Distribution and Allowances . . . for non-combat units. A TO&E and a TDA are essentially the same. Likely a Chairwarming Colonel without a real function in life made the distinction between the two and likely convinced some Chairwarming General that he was correct . . .


User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 5, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 3365 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 4):
Likely a Chairwarming Colonel without a real function in life made the distinction between the two and likely convinced some Chairwarming General that he was correct . .

Leaving aside the chairwarming bits (which may well be true), all this seems very different from what was. Is this balance representative of other "modern" armies?

At least up to the Falklands war, UK colonels were in the thick of it. And Hollywood has always portrayed them as active, certainly Doolittle when at that sort of rank did his best not to emulate his name.

Why the changes? What are the reasons and the results?


User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 6, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 3363 times:

Quoting Baroque (Reply 5):
At least up to the Falklands war, UK colonels were in the thick of it.

If you're talking about Lieutenant-Colonel H Jones, who was killed at Goose Green and picked up a posthumous VC, whilst he (and those of similar rank) would obviously be in the battle, there was considerable debate as to whether a command officer should have been quite so in the thick of it (i.e. leading the charge) as he was.



She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 3360 times:

Quoting Baroque (Reply 5):
Leaving aside the chairwarming bits (which may well be true), all this seems very different from what was. Is this balance representative of other "modern" armies?

At least representative of the Modern US Army . . .

Quoting Baroque (Reply 5):
At least up to the Falklands war, UK colonels were in the thick of it. And Hollywood has always portrayed them as active, certainly Doolittle when at that sort of rank did his best not to emulate his name.

. . . Colonels and such do get up on the lines . . . in the Field Command Posts - but are generally behind the actually fighting lines from one to several kilometers. I'm afraid the days of seeing your Brigade or Battalion Commander sharing a trench line or a revetment next to you are over in the Regular Army. I can't speak for Special Ops, etc . . .

I think what Hollywood represents with such unique commanders like Dolittle, Patton, and the like are accurate representations of what it was like in a past time. It is currently, not that way.

Soldiers are paid to fight and commanders are paid to command. They can command from the rear - with todays high tech communications systems and near instant battlefield reporting they can get a pretty accurate 'look' at the battlefield electronically . . . perhaps there's no longer a need to get 'eyes on'. Personally, I prefer the Dolittle or Patton method. I always thought, and think so today, that leader should lead from the front. First in, last off.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 5):
Why the changes? What are the reasons and the results?

I certainly don't pretend to know the answer. I joined the US Army in 1977, and it seems to always have been this way - with very rare exceptions*. The command posts were always a bit behind the lines. The exception to what I just posted was my experience in Desert Storm where the battle moved so quickly the Command Post didn't have time to set up and dig in - in fact had a hell of a time keeping up with the fight. We moved so far, so fast in those tanks there wasn't time for the Command Post to settle in anywhere. Plus the Cavalry Troop I was in was a hard charging bunch anyway . . . it was not unusual to see the Colonel right up in the middle of it. Leadership . . . that's called leadership.

*LTG (Retired) George H. Harmeyer, always at the front of the fight.
*Colonel (Retired) Richard Ardisson, always out in front.
*CSM Csaba Kofalvi, first in, last off.

Those guys - still friends of mine - are a soldier's soldier. There are others.

IMO, it's a rarity these days.


User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 3351 times:

Baroque . . . here's a few places to look for insight on US Army Force Structure.

http://www.militarydial.com/army-force-structure.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structu..._of_the_United_States_Armed_Forces

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platoon


User currently offline11Bravo From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1718 posts, RR: 10
Reply 9, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 3341 times:

Another factor that affects the high casualty rate for NCOs is the large number of National Guard and Reserve units deployed to Iraq. Those units tend to be "rank-heavy" more so than their Regular Army counter parts.

A typical light infantry squad should have two or maybe three NCOs, and Regular Army units will generally follow that composition. The same squad from a NG or Reserve unit may have as many as five or even six NCOs.



WhaleJets Rule!
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 10, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 3322 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 8):
Baroque . . . here's a few places to look for insight on US Army Force Structure.

Thanks for those links. I had a quick look and will have a longer "brood" over them.

I still find the breakdown by rank a little odd, perhaps just not as odd as I first thought.

Not seeing US TV, is there any other reference to casualties similar to the Newshour treatment?


User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 3300 times:

Quoting Baroque (Reply 10):

There are changes afoot in the Force Structure within the US Army - at just about all levels - that have been developing for about 5 years now.

The US Army is moving away from the "heavy Division" Force Structure into a more mobile, and readily deployable, structure deemed Brigade Combat Teams. Not unique in many respects, but a complete departure from the Cold War type force structure that has been prevelent in the US Army for a century or more.

I believe it's right direction to go. It makes the Army more effective and more suited to the combat environment in today's world.

A decent model from which to gleen information on how these Brigade Combat Teams are structured and work are the Cavalry Squadrons from the 70s, 80s, and 90s. The 11th Armored Cav (Blackhorse), the 3rd Armored and 2nd Armored Cavalry units are all representative of a mobile, fast, effective fighting force.

While there will still be Division Headquarters, it will be rare that a Division will be stationed all in one place. Rather than moving a Division at a time, deployments will be by Brigade size elements with a Force Structure tuned to the mission.

If you want more info on that, you can check this out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transformation_of_the_United_States_Army

Or just drop me a PM.


User currently offlineQFA380 From Australia, joined Jul 2005, 2062 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 3293 times:

How long would it take an excellent E2 to make his way up to E5 if it's all Sergeants and Corporals. Then how long would it take them to get up to E8 or E9. Also, can an NCO get promoted to a Warrant Officer? I would guess maybe 5-10 years to E5 and then maybe another 15-20 years to E8 or E9.

I'm not sure about all this stuff, over here though I understand our Defence Force rather well for a 14 year old. We have quite a few Officers over here, you go from Sergeant to Staff Sergeant and then go to Warrant Officer.


User currently offlineDL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11447 posts, RR: 75
Reply 13, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 3287 times:
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Quoting Baroque (Thread starter):
Does this reflect the force composition, or the risk factors in combat? Are there other factors?

the main reason is that NCO's are the main combat leaders in small units, and face proportionately higher levels of danger due to the fact that they lead from the front and by example, which often means they lead the way into combat and have to expose themselves to show their men the way forward. I

Quoting Baroque (Thread starter):

Is there an explanation for what seem disproportionate losses among NCOs based on tactics?

No, it's based on job description. You want the green tabs, you assume the extra risks. Command/leadership in the Army is a privilege that incurs great risk.

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 12):
How long would it take an excellent E2 to make his way up to E5 if it's all Sergeants and Corporals. Then how long would it take them to get up to E8 or E9. Also, can an NCO get promoted to a Warrant Officer? I would guess maybe 5-10 years to E5 and then maybe another 15-20 years to E8 or E9.

An excellent E-2 could be an NCO in as little as 12 months depending on the MOS and performance (as in where and how well). Average time is 18 to 30 months for a good performing enlisted man to reach NCO level starting with corporal. In combat zones it happens faster as the best performers are promoted more quickly.



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 3287 times:

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 12):
How long would it take an excellent E2 to make his way up to E5 if it's all Sergeants and Corporals.

A fast track, high speed, low drag, hard charging soldier can go from E1 to E5 in 24 months. That is the minimum time in service requirement for promotion to the pay grade E5 - rank=Sergeant. Average is really about 36-48 months.

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 12):
Then how long would it take them to get up to E8 or E9.

That varies - E8 is in average range of 15 years (Self Gloss: I did it in 12). And E9 the average is 18-20 years (Another Self Gloss: I did it in 16).

Promotions at the rank of E6 and below are generally managed at the "local" or Divisional level. Promotions E7 and above are handled at the DoD level and are a far more complicated process.

All promotions are dependent upon many variables: vacancies, appropriate training, appropriate level NCO schooling, demonstrated potential, demonstrated ability, etc . . . not too different I think than most military services.

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 12):
Also, can an NCO get promoted to a Warrant Officer?

No. There is no natural progression from the NCO ranks into the Warrant Officer (or the Commissioned Officer) ranks.

What must occur is an NCO must apply for, be accepted to, and graduate from Warrant Officer Candidate School. Perhaps our fellow A-Nutter UH60FtRucker will chime in with a more detailed description of that since he is a product thereof.

Once the NCO successfully completes WOC School, he/she will be 'promoted' to the rank of Warrant Officer 1, pay grade WO1.

It is very rare that a senior NCO - pay grade E7 or above - will ever go to Warrant Officer School. Not that they couldn't compete and graduate honorably, just that no Senior NCO will want to give up Senior NCO status to become a WO1 . . .  biggrin  That's worse than being a Second Lieutenant.  laughing 

There is a similar process for NCOs that want to pursue their careers in the Commissioned Officer ranks. Apply for, be accepted to, and graduate from Officer Candidate School with the rank of Second Lieutenant.


User currently offlineQFA380 From Australia, joined Jul 2005, 2062 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 3286 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 14):

Thanks for that. Did you climb so quickly because the conditions were right, you were an excellent soldier or both? Also, I know UH60FtRucker is a Warrant Officer and he's a helicopter pilot, can the Lietenants and higher also be pilots or only WOFFs?


User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 3282 times:

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 15):
can the Lietenants and higher also be pilots or only WOFFs?

Yes sir. UH60 often flies with a commissioned officer in the other seat. Not unusual at all. Once again, he's the smarter man on that topic - perhaps he'll see this and chime in here.

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 15):
Did you climb so quickly because the conditions were right, you were an excellent soldier or both?

Both . . . .  snooty 

 wink 


User currently offlineUH60FtRucker From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 3276 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 4):
So the Army is NCO heavy in the mid-grades.

Interestingly, Army Aviation suffers from a LACK of highly qualified NCOs. Often enlisted personnel who are so closely involved in the aviation branch, are the first ones to jump ship and apply for flight school.

Hell, I did it. I was in the N.Guard while I went through college. I was a 15T - UH-60 crew chief/mechanic/door gunner. I reached E4 and just stayed there. I had at least 3 opportunities, that I can remember, to be promoted to E5. But I simply did not want it. I was in college, I knew as soon as my 4yr commitment was up I was going to go active and become a WO1... so I just didn't want the hassle of E5. Annoyingly, unit kept trying to get me to go to PLDC, and I kept finding everyway to get out of it. Seriously - give me slot to an E4 who actually NEEDs it, right? So I kept refusing, because I knew I was going Warrant.

And sure enough I was accepted into WOCS and also switched to active. Yet the 5mth prior to going to WOCS, my unit STILL tried to get me to go to PLDC!

Quoting Baroque (Reply 5):
At least up to the Falklands war, UK colonels were in the thick of it.

Well some of that happens over here. I've flown Colonels and Brig Generals around during times where it probably wasn't the safest thing for them to be doing. But that's their "style" - they need to be near the fight and getting dirty with their men.

But the military really doesn't like that. By the time you reach Lt. Col., the military has invested a lot of money in you. You have attended the best schools, graduated from some of the best leadership courses... and you've become a high value asset for the fighting force. We really don't want to lose that.

So that's why when you usually see generals walking around on the battlefield... it's well after we've gone in there and killed every living thing!  

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 11):
While there will still be Division Headquarters, it will be rare that a Division will be stationed all in one place.

Yeah, I think the only divisions to be located at a single location are the 82nd Airborne, 10th Mountain and 101st (AIR ASSAULT HOOAH!). All of the others are spread out at multiple locations.

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 12):
How long would it take an excellent E2 to make his way up to E5 if it's all Sergeants and Corporals.

Again... I could have done it 3yrs - 2 if I worked for it. But I simply did not want it. I enjoyed crewing. I didn't want to be a platoon sergeant or go off and become a CI (crewchief instructor). Had I gone in there with the intention of staying guard, and staying in the enlisted ranks... I would definitely be an E6 by now.

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 12):
can an NCO get promoted to a Warrant Officer?

Not on a natural progression. He/she would need to apply to WOCS.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 13):
An excellent E-2 could be an NCO in as little as 12 months depending on the MOS and performance

Over here in Iraq, promotions are a put on the fast track. Truth is, the more qualified people to lead a patrol out on the streets... the better. So, at least the Army, is really pushing E4s into E5 slots rather quickly.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 14):
What must occur is an NCO must apply for, be accepted to, and graduate from Warrant Officer Candidate School. Perhaps our fellow A-Nutter UH60FtRucker will chime in with a more detailed description of that since he is a product thereof.

Once the NCO successfully completes WOC School, he/she will be 'promoted' to the rank of Warrant Officer 1, pay grade WO1.

It is very rare that a senior NCO - pay grade E7 or above - will ever go to Warrant Officer School. Not that they couldn't compete and graduate honorably, just that no Senior NCO will want to give up Senior NCO status to become a WO1 .

Exactly. The process of applying to WOCS can be VERY tedious and time consuming. The vast majority of warrant officer candidates have prior service, and they've attended PLDC, BNCOC, and a rare few have even attended ANCOC. However there is a small core of individuals who had NO prior military service and came straight from the civilian world. (They attended basic, and then went straight to WOCS).

But ANC is definitely right - you're just not going to see E7s and above leave to become a warrant. First they're not going to want to commit to the minimum 7yr flight commitment. Second, by that point in their career, they're subject matter experts who rule their domain. Ain't no way in hell they're going to the bottom of the food chain again!!

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 14):
That's worse than being a Second Lieutenant.

Well wait a minute!! I have known some really squared away WO1s **cough cough cough***, but I rarely meet squared away butter bars. The only reason being WO1 sucks more than a 2nd LT... because when capt'n wants something done right, he's not gonna go to the ass monkey LT... nah, he's gonna go to the WO1.

Why? Because warrants fuckin' rock.

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 15):
Also, I know UH60FtRucker is a Warrant Officer and he's a helicopter pilot, can the Lietenants and higher also be pilots or only WOFFs?

Absolutely. I've flown with 2nd LTs all the way up to a one star. Of course, the higher the commissioned officers go in rank, the less and less they fly. Compared to the warrants, who basically fly their entire careers.

Warrants = subject matter experts and the best possible pilot one can be
Commissioned = command and control orientated with a focus not so much on the aircraft, but the fight force.

Also - a lot of commissioned officers are not PICs. (if they are, they reach it 10x slower than warrants). So when I'm flying, and I am PIC, that is MY aircraft and I am in command. And I've told a O-4 sitting next to me, "Do action X NOW... sir." He still outranks me - but that is MY aircraft.

-UH60

[Edited 2006-09-28 07:26:22]

User currently offlineUH60FtRucker From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 3272 times:

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 17):
Yeah, I think the only divisions to be located at a single location are the 82nd Airborne, 10th Mountain and 101st (AIR ASSAULT HOOAH!). All of the others are spread out at multiple locations.

Damn, how could I forget that the 10th has a brigade stationed down at Fort Polk.

So yeah - the only two are the 82nd and the 101st (AIR ASSAULT HOOAH!)

-UH60


User currently offlineQFA380 From Australia, joined Jul 2005, 2062 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 3267 times:

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 17):

Thanks, very interesting to read about the workings of the US Army, now the Air Force lol.


User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 3266 times:

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 19):
now the Air Force lol.

Just go downtown to any corporate office in your area . . . .

That'll give you the answer to that . . . .

Seriously, you'll have to talk to a Flyboy for that. The less I know about the inner workings of the USAF the better . . . I was married to an Air Force officer once - I didn't get it then and I don't want to get it now.  crazy 


User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 21, posted (7 years 11 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 3260 times:

Thanks for that information folk. I even understood some of it! It looks to be acronym city.

User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (7 years 11 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 3257 times:

Quoting Baroque (Reply 21):
It looks to be acronym city.

 yes   hypnotized   faint 

About 15500 of them . . .

http://www.dtic.mil/doctrine/jel/doddict/acronym_index.html

http://www.globemaster.de/cgi-bin/ab...iew_records=1&Abbreviation=*&nh=20


User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 23, posted (7 years 11 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 3256 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 22):
About 15500 of them . . .

http://www.dtic.mil/doctrine/jel/doddict/acronym_index.html

http://www.globemaster.de/cgi-bin/ab...nh=20

Good grief CB to coin a phrase!


User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (7 years 11 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 3253 times:

Quoting Baroque (Reply 23):

Good grief CB to coin a phrase!

Oh, wait, it gets better. Most have multiple meanings, so one must know the context of the conversation!

Example:

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 17):
Also - a lot of commissioned officers are not PICs.

According to Joint Publication 1-02, the following:

PIC
parent indicator code; payment in cash; person identification code; pilot in command; press information center (NATO)


Since we're talking about a comment from UH60FtRucker, and he's a helicopter pilot we know he means "Pilot in Command". If we were talking to a Finance Center weinie we'd like be talking about a "Payment in Cash".

 crazy 


User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 25, posted (7 years 11 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3245 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 24):
Since we're talking about a comment from UH60FtRucker, and he's a helicopter pilot we know he means "Pilot in Command". If we were talking to a Finance Center weinie we'd like be talking about a "Payment in Cash".

Ah, that PIC, gets me to one I know about, one Black Hawk* equals USD500 million. Not exactly an acronym, but 1BH would be.

I did pick CB for Charlie Brown with the intention of Cit Band being an alternative.

*It appears that this is the amount of cash in shrink wrapped new US 100 dollar notes that can be packed in a Black Hawk.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article10659.htm

but I cannot find the correct link.


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