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US Preparing For War With Iran?  
User currently offlineRammstein From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 11 months 4 hours ago) and read 2248 times:

I don't know how much is Dennis Kucinich trustworthy (I'm not an expert of US politics), but this article is a bit scary.

www.afterdowningstreet.org


he Bush Administration is preparing for war against Iran, using an almost identical drumbeat of weapons of mass destruction, imminent threat, alleged links to Al Queda, and even linking Iran with a future 911.

In the past few months reports have been published in Newsweek, ABC News and GQ Magazine that indicate the US is recruiting members of paramilitary groups to destabilize Iran through violence. The New Yorker magazine and the Guardian have written that US has already deployed military inside Iran. The latest issue of Time writes of plans for a naval blockade of Iran at the Port of Hormuz, through which 40% of the world's oil supply passes. Other news reports have claimed that an air strike, using a variety of bombs including bunker busters to be dropped on over 1,000 targets, including nuclear facilities. This could obviously result in a great long term humanitarian and environmental disaster.
...
Just this past week, the International Atomic Energy Agency called "erroneous, misleading and unsubstantiated" statements relating to Iran's nuclear program which came from a staff report of the House Intelligence committee. Other intelligence officials have claimed over a dozen distortions in the report which, among other things, said Iran is producing weapons grade uranium.


Any opinion?

36 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (7 years 11 months 3 hours ago) and read 2236 times:

Quoting Rammstein (Thread starter):
Any opinion?

Yup . . . it's mostly  redflag 

1) Direct negotiations with Iran.

Already being done.

(2) The US must guarantee Iran and the world community that it will not attack Iran.

 rotfl 

(3) Iran must open once again to international inspections of its nuclear program.

 rotfl 

(4) Iran must agree not to build nuclear weapons.

 rotfl 

Many of you joined me three years ago as I ran for President . . . .

Yeah, about 12 people I think.


. . . . to challenge the deliberate lies about WMDs, Iraq and 911, Iraq and Al Queda and the Niger "yellowcake" claims which put us onto the path of an unnecessary, illegal, costly war in Iraq.

Most of which weren't even brought to light three years ago, but I guess that's beside the point. With the short memory of most Americans good ole Dennis will bag 'em and tag 'em with this bull.


The Iraq war has caused greater instability and violence in the world community. In the meantime, our government has used the oxymoronic war on terror to trample our Constitution, rip up the Bill of Rights and rule by fear.

He sounds like a Democrat . . .


User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 11 months 3 hours ago) and read 2228 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 1):
He sounds like a Democrat . . .

No, he sounds like he's read the National Intelligence Estimate report.


User currently offlinePadraighaz From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (7 years 11 months 3 hours ago) and read 2222 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 1):
. . . . to challenge the deliberate lies about WMDs, Iraq and 911, Iraq and Al Queda and the Niger "yellowcake" claims which put us onto the path of an unnecessary, illegal, costly war in Iraq.

Most of which weren't even brought to light three years ago, but I guess that's beside the point.

The ya-didn't-know-we-were-liars-then defense!

Almost spilled my coffee laughing at this one.


User currently offlineUH60FtRucker From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (7 years 11 months 3 hours ago) and read 2218 times:

Hey as far as I am concerned, I am already at war with Iran.

Because when I was engaged by that IRANIAN made surface to air missile... that was financed, produced and supplied by the nation of Iran... yeah I took that as a message they wanted me dead.

-UH60


User currently offlineAndesSMF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (7 years 11 months 3 hours ago) and read 2218 times:

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 2):
National Intelligence Estimate

Interesting to note that after the report was partly declassified, no new stories have been published to confirm the original stories. Wonder why?


User currently offlinePadraighaz From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (7 years 11 months 2 hours ago) and read 2204 times:

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 4):
Hey as far as I am concerned, I am already at war with Iran.

Because when I was engaged by that IRANIAN made surface to air missile... that was financed, produced and supplied by the nation of Iran... yeah I took that as a message they wanted me dead.

I assume you are referring to a weapon built by Iran, but not fired by Iran since I never heard of a direct attack by Iran on US forces.

If this is correct, your posting is nonsense since we might as well accuse Boeing for 9-11 since (using YOUR criteria) the planes involved were financed, produced, and supplied by Boeing. Were we in a state of war with the Soviet Union when we supplied shoulder mount missiles to the taliban to help them in their fight against the USSR?

This kind of reasoning is no better than a fundamentalist's since it is blind to shades of gray and therefore escalates all issues, no matter how minor, to levels demanding heavy handed responses.


User currently offlinePadraighaz From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (7 years 11 months 2 hours ago) and read 2196 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 1):
The Iraq war has caused greater instability and violence in the world community. In the meantime, our government has used the oxymoronic war on terror to trample our Constitution, rip up the Bill of Rights and rule by fear.

He sounds like a Democrat . . .

Agreed. Sadly, Kucinich tends to cast too many pearls before the swine.


User currently offlineUH60FtRucker From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (7 years 11 months 2 hours ago) and read 2181 times:

Quoting Padraighaz (Reply 6):

Padraig, when I said I was no longer going to engage you in any level of debate, I wasn't kidding around.   

And I'm only saying thing now, because since that day, this is like the 10th post you've directed towards me... and not one received a response from me. Obviously there's a reason, no?

You personally insulted me on that past thread, you refused to acknowledge your mistake, let alone apologize for it. And then you wrote me a convoluted email, where you not only continued to avoid taking responsibility for your rude remarks and apologize... you managed to insult me AGAIN by blaming the incident on my youth and inexperience.

Like I said the first time, you don't have my respect, let alone any responses from me. So please stop wasting your time.

-UH60

[Edited 2006-09-28 19:15:22]

User currently offlineAndesSMF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (7 years 11 months 2 hours ago) and read 2179 times:

Quoting Padraighaz (Reply 6):
Because when I was engaged by that IRANIAN made surface to air missile... that was financed, produced and supplied by the nation of Iran... yeah I took that as a message they wanted me dead.

I assume you are referring to a weapon built by Iran, but not fired by Iran since I never heard of a direct attack by Iran on US forces.

Let me see if I can explain it better:

Iran supplied the missiles to the 'insurgents' for the express purpose of fighting the US. Iran has supplied money and weapons for these 'insurgents' for the express purpose of fighting against the US. Boeing DID NOT provide airplanes to the 9/11 terrorists for the purpose of crashing them into buildings.

Get it?


User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12090 posts, RR: 49
Reply 10, posted (7 years 11 months 2 hours ago) and read 2174 times:

Quoting Rammstein (Thread starter):
I don't know how much is Dennis Kucinich trustworthy

Being from Ohio I can say he is an idiot! Do nothing attention whore, get his name out in the press. He was once the Mayor of Cleveland, though that was before I moved here.



You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlinePadraighaz From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (7 years 11 months 1 hour ago) and read 2162 times:

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 9):
Let me see if I can explain it better:

Iran supplied the missiles to the 'insurgents' for the express purpose of fighting the US. Iran has supplied money and weapons for these 'insurgents' for the express purpose of fighting against the US. Boeing DID NOT provide airplanes to the 9/11 terrorists for the purpose of crashing them into buildings.

This is why I also included the example (which you ignored) of the US supporting the Taliban when it suited them to cover the scenario where there was also a political intent in addition to making weapons available.


User currently offlineSearpqx From Netherlands, joined Jun 2000, 4344 posts, RR: 10
Reply 12, posted (7 years 11 months ago) and read 2113 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 1):
The Iraq war has caused greater instability and violence in the world community. In the meantime, our government has used the oxymoronic war on terror to trample our Constitution, rip up the Bill of Rights and rule by fear.

He sounds like a Democrat . . .

Sorry ANC, using lines like that basically reduces your argument to the level of his. I don't agree with his hyperbole, but you know from my posts I'm concerned with the direction the administration is taking us, the (thankfully dead as it stands) monitoring bill is a prime example of that. And it didn't even give the President everything he wanted! You're using Democrat as a pejorative term, you know damn well there are plenty of us who question/disagree with Bush & Co who are as loyal and patriotic as you.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 5):
Interesting to note that after the report was partly declassified, no new stories have been published to confirm the original stories. Wonder why?

What have you been reading? Everything I've seen says exactly what I read when the story broke over the weekend, including articles in today's papers. Al-Quaida is bloodied and dispersed, Iraq is a breeding ground for a new generation, fanaticism is more widespread and growing, and not as reliant on a central structure (Al-Qaida) as in the past.

Quoting Padraighaz (Reply 6):
If this is correct, your posting is nonsense since we might as well accuse Boeing for 9-11 since (using YOUR criteria) the planes involved were financed, produced, and supplied by Boeing. Were we in a state of war with the Soviet Union when we supplied shoulder mount missiles to the Taliban to help them in their fight against the USSR?

As Andes already pointed out, you're comparison of Iran and Boeing makes your accusation of nonsensical posts sorta ironic. And to answer your question about Taliban/Russia, yes, we were fighting a proxy war with the Soviet Union, almost identical to what Iran is doing with the insurgents. I can only hope that it comes back to bite them in the ass the way it has us.

As far as the original question, no I can't believe we're preparing for war. I don't doubt that there are contingency studies and scenarios laid out, but that is SOP for any nation. In the current state of affairs, I can't think of a single act that would come closer to toppling the current administration than taking us to war against Iran. And as much as I distrust this admin, I can't help but believe they have the intelligence to realize we're already stretched to the breaking point and couldn't pursue another action without resolution of our current engagements.



"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8549 posts, RR: 13
Reply 13, posted (7 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2081 times:
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having just spent two weeks travelling in Iran where I met nothing but warm , delightful , hospitable , courteous people my blood runs cold at the casual way people are talking about war - I certainly don't agree with a lot of things the Iranian government does in terms of human rights violations - but in my experience neither do a large number of ordinary Iranian people .

If the USA decides to attack Iran who is going to suffer ? the crackpot Iranian government who no doubt have access to the best shelters ? or the ordinary people of Iran ?

At the moment , while the government is spouting its usual rhetoric the general population seem to be getting more and more liberal and western-oriented - I am sure that in the next few years the younger generation in Iran will push through enormous changes ( one of the great ironies in Iran is that the theocracy sowed the seeds of its own destruction after the 1979 revolution by bullying people into having at least 6 children per family - there is now a huge population bulge of young people hungry for change and who , inspite of , or maybe even because of , their governments anti-western rhetoric seem to be getting more and more pro-western ) all of this burgeoning goodwill will be destroyed if the current halfwitted hamfisted occupant of the White House decides that a war will make him look like a real man .

If he launches an attack which is going to hurt the civilian population of Iran far more than it will hurt any of the Iranian government he will turn the clock back nearly thirty years to a time when it wasn't just the government in Iran , but also the people who were virulently anti-west .



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlinePadraighaz From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (7 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2068 times:

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 13):
And to answer your question about Taliban/Russia, yes, we were fighting a proxy war with the Soviet Union, almost identical to what Iran is doing with the insurgents. I can only hope that it comes back to bite them in the ass the way it has us.

Agreed, but point is there are different degrees of escalation and major differences between proxy wars and all out wars. Going off half-cocked and equating the former with the latter is sabre-rattling needlessly. Righteous sabre-rattling already helped get us into the mess we're in; it's absurd to repeat the same mistakes and set us up for the same pitfalls.


User currently offlineAllstarflyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (7 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2050 times:

Quoting Padraighaz (Reply 6):
If this is correct, your posting is nonsense since we might as well accuse Boeing for 9-11 since (using YOUR criteria) the planes involved were financed, produced, and supplied by Boeing.

Talk about a backwards argument.

Quoting Padraighaz (Reply 6):
Were we in a state of war with the Soviet Union when we supplied shoulder mount missiles to the taliban to help them in their fight against the USSR?

The Cold War was the closest-to-official-as-can-be-kind-of-war.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 9):
Iran supplied the missiles to the 'insurgents' for the express purpose of fighting the US. Iran has supplied money and weapons for these 'insurgents' for the express purpose of fighting against the US. Boeing DID NOT provide airplanes to the 9/11 terrorists for the purpose of crashing them into buildings.



Quoting Padraighaz (Reply 11):
This is why I also included the example (which you ignored) of the US supporting the Taliban when it suited them to cover the scenario where there was also a political intent in addition to making weapons available.

The US supported the Taliban, and the Iranians have supported the insurgents. But there is no correlation in your post with 9-11. The weapons (aircraft) used in 9-11 were not supplied to the terrorists. Making sense 1 out of 2 times in your comparisons is a poor average.

Edited for content

-R

[Edited 2006-09-28 23:05:51]

User currently offlineYVRtoYYZ From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 658 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (7 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2050 times:

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 13):
In the current state of affairs, I can't think of a single act that would come closer to toppling the current administration than taking us to war against Iran.

What do they have to lose by launching another "preemptive" attack? The current Bush Administration's mandate ceases to exist effective January, 2009.

Given the track record of this administration, is it too far-fetched to think that they may go in, create a mess and say: "Fu*k it", let the upcoming administration deal with the consequences."?

In my opinion,unfortunately, they have nothing to lose by doing this.

Yet, with the lessons hopefully learned it Iraq, will Congress allow the President to do such a thing and will Congress provide a rubber-stamp to fund such an undertaking? That remains to be seen until after mid-term elections are held and how the balance of power unfolds.

-YVRtoYYZ


User currently offlineAndesSMF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (7 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2041 times:

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 14):
( one of the great ironies in Iran is that the theocracy sowed the seeds of its own destruction after the 1979 revolution by bullying people into having at least 6 children per family - there is now a huge population bulge of young people hungry for change and who , inspite of , or maybe even because of , their governments anti-western rhetoric seem to be getting more and more pro-western )

Had the same speech with an Iranian exile a few days ago, and he confirmed the same to me. Iranian youths seem to be one of the most pro-western Muslims in the world.

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 14):
but also the people who were virulently anti-west .

I have been doing some reading on the Iranian revolution, and was surprised at what actually occurred. But no, there were not many anti-Western types in Iran at the time.

Quoting Padraighaz (Reply 15):
it's absurd to repeat the same mistakes and set us up for the same pitfalls.

To be fair, there is no evidence of any imminent attack on Iran. All these discussions are mere assumptions with no real evidence.


User currently offlinePadraighaz From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (7 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2036 times:

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 18):
Quoting Padraighaz (Reply 15):
it's absurd to repeat the same mistakes and set us up for the same pitfalls.


To be fair, there is no evidence of any imminent attack on Iran. All these discussions are mere assumptions with no real evidence.

I agree, but Bush did say "all options are on the table" in this context, and there has already been some sabre-rattling.


User currently offlineSearpqx From Netherlands, joined Jun 2000, 4344 posts, RR: 10
Reply 19, posted (7 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2018 times:

Quoting Padraighaz (Reply 15):
Going off half-cocked and equating the former with the latter is sabre-rattling needlessly. Righteous sabre-rattling already helped get us into the mess we're in; it's absurd to repeat the same mistakes and set us up for the same pitfalls.

Perhaps, but as I read UH60's post, it wasn't an excuse to go to war, so much as a statement that from his position, he's already fighting that war, albeit by proxy. I can't argue with his reasoning.

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 14):
there is now a huge population bulge of young people hungry for change and who , inspite of , or maybe even because of , their governments anti-western rhetoric seem to be getting more and more pro-western

This matches everything I've heard, and is probably our greatest hope in reaching some sort of reconcilliation with Iran in the future. It's my sincere hope that that chance doesn't get fucked up by hard liners, on either side.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 18):
To be fair, there is no evidence of any imminent attack on Iran. All these discussions are mere assumptions with no real evidence.

 checkmark 



"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (7 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2018 times:

Quoting Rammstein (Thread starter):
I don't know how much is Dennis Kucinich trustworthy (I'm not an expert of US politics), but this article is a bit scary.

Dennis is about as left as you can go in Congress, but he serves his constituents well, no matter what their political stripe. He's pretty popular in Cleveland.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 1):
Many of you joined me three years ago as I ran for President . . . .

Yeah, about 12 people I think.

 rotfl 

Actually, it was a baker's dozen, ANC-I think it was 13. Superfly was an honorary member.  Big grin

Quoting Padraighaz (Reply 6):
Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 4):
Hey as far as I am concerned, I am already at war with Iran.

Because when I was engaged by that IRANIAN made surface to air missile... that was financed, produced and supplied by the nation of Iran... yeah I took that as a message they wanted me dead.

I assume you are referring to a weapon built by Iran, but not fired by Iran since I never heard of a direct attack by Iran on US forces.

If this is correct, your posting is nonsense since we might as well accuse Boeing for 9-11 since (using YOUR criteria) the planes involved were financed, produced, and supplied by Boeing.

Pad, what you say is nonsense. Boeing didn't give the aircraft to the terrorists-Iran DID hand over the weapons to those thugs UH60 has had to face. In his shoes, he is dead on-Iran, in a sense, has declared war on the U.S. via proxy in Iraq-just as they declared war on Israel via proxy in Lebanon.

Your posting is nonsense. I'll stand by UH60 on this one.


User currently offlineDrDeke From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 830 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (7 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2014 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 1):

The Iraq war has caused greater instability and violence in the world community. In the meantime, our government has used the oxymoronic war on terror to trample our Constitution, rip up the Bill of Rights and rule by fear.

He sounds like a Democrat . . .

Why, because he points out what's actually happening?

*plonk*

-DrDeke



If you don't want it known, don't say it on a phone.
User currently offlineBushpilot From South Africa, joined Jul 2007, 0 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (7 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2000 times:

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 4):
Hey as far as I am concerned, I am already at war with Iran.

Came across this a few minutes ago. I think everyone already knew Iran and Syria were known entry points into Iraq for foreign fighters. In the meantime, and I dont have the link, but the KSA is building a fence along its borders with Iraq to keep "terrorists" out of the Kingdom.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/09/28/iraq.iran/index.html

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 12):
As far as the original question, no I can't believe we're preparing for war. I don't doubt that there are contingency studies and scenarios laid out, but that is SOP for any nation. In the current state of affairs, I can't think of a single act that would come closer to toppling the current administration than taking us to war against Iran. And as much as I distrust this admin, I can't help but believe they have the intelligence to realize we're already stretched to the breaking point and couldn't pursue another action without resolution of our current engagements.

This is not something new, there are probably contingency plans for any large country on what would be the best plan regarding the use of military forces in another country. THe US has them, everyone does. I am sure there are plenty of plans around the Pentagon concerning Iran and many other countries.

Quoting YVRtoYYZ (Reply 16):
Yet, with the lessons hopefully learned it Iraq, will Congress allow the President to do such a thing and will Congress provide a rubber-stamp to fund such an undertaking? That remains to be seen until after mid-term elections are held and how the balance of power unfolds.

You will not see a Iraq style US invasion of Iran unless they nuked Israel or another close ally, the Bush administration, despite not really publicly admitting it, knows that A. we dont have enough soldiers and equipment to fight another war, and a ground battle with Iran would not go as well as the 3 weeks it took to take Baghdad. I doubt we will even see airstrikes in Iran. But Iran could throw a serious wrench in the process if they mounted a military invasion into Iraq, doubt it would happen. But that would take a bad situation and make it unthinkable.


User currently offlineRichardPrice From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (7 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1975 times:

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 4):
Because when I was engaged by that IRANIAN made surface to air missile... that was financed, produced and supplied by the nation of Iran... yeah I took that as a message they wanted me dead.

The UK faced British, French and US sourced and funded arms during the Falklands conflict, were we really at war with those countries?


User currently offlineMham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3605 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (7 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1960 times:

Were those weapons donated to Argentina with the express purpose of killing the British? There is the difference.

25 Falcon84 : Weapons sold to them when they were peaceful friends. This is an entirely different situation: a belligerant nation, handing weapons over to belliger
26 AndesSMF : And if GWB hadn't said "all options are on the table", you would be accussing him of being unprepared for what may happen. And I assume you are talki
27 Falcon84 : My dislike for Mr. Bush aside, in such a situation, diplomacy HAS to be backed up with threat of sanctions or military action. If it isn't, then the
28 Gilligan : I shook Dennis K's hand and had a chat with him long ago outside of a coffee shop on Detroit in Lakewood. I can vouch that he is a human and not an al
29 LTBEWR : Any attempt to military invade Iran would be a horrible disaster. It would probably lead to horrible affects, including massive attacks on Israel terr
30 CFCUQ : Thank you. Someone with first hand knowledge of the additudes and inclinations of the "people", who are always the last consideration in any military
31 Post contains images Searpqx : See, we can agree on occasion!
32 Padraighaz : Sabre-rattling from Iran - nah. It might be a cultural thing in the region to talk tough. I think the US took Saddam too seriously - and perhaps deli
33 Searpqx : How do you define 'screw with Iran'. Seems to me, that while GWB probably wouldn't be sending love notes, if there wasn't a credible concern of Iran'
34 Kiwiandrew : on reflection that doesn't really surprise me , even older people we met still seemed a lot more pro-Western than I expected - I guess I was just bas
35 RichardPrice : Get out of my face Falcon, thats not what I was doing - but you do like to make this personal dont you. In war it doesnt much matter what weapons you
36 Baroque : At last something I can really believe, although why you are worried about the Iranian's donkey getting bitten is beyond me.
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