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Dealing With School Shootings  
User currently offlineAllstarflyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 2006 times:

Remember this?

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/non_aviation/read.main/1388983/

And then there's this from Richardnhsv from the Amish-shooting thread:

http://today.reuters.co.uk/News/CrisesArticle.aspx?storyId=N29205059

We also have this going on:
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/10/02/lasvegas.schools.ap/index.html

We also had this recently:

http://www.airliners.net/discussions...ion/read.main/1386741/6/#ID1386741

Since school shootings seem to be the crime du jour, does anybody (besides me) care to offer a solution? That link about the CO school shootings, I suggested the principals should be authorized to carry firearms. It may not be the best solution, but it might be, or, at least, a step in the right direction.

-R

30 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineNkops From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2698 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 1999 times:

I don't see a solution, who is to say the principal won't go nuts. The people that do these are usually everyday looking students or adults who unfortunately snap usually without warning.


I have no association with Spirit Airlines
User currently offlineRammstein From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 1998 times:

Quoting Allstarflyer (Thread starter):
I suggested the principals should be authorized to carry firearms.

The question is: would he/she be able to use it in the proper way?


User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 1994 times:

I was about to make a long post about secure controlled access points separate from the school facility to monitor everyone and everything going in or out... then I realized you could just shoot/stab/run over all the kids standing in line to get through.

Short of mandatory mental evaluations and counseling for the whole bunch of us, I can't think of an actual effective solution. But.. I can imagine what some people are going to say.

[Edited 2006-10-02 23:46:54]
My spelling blows today.

[Edited 2006-10-02 23:47:34]

User currently offlineAllstarflyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 1985 times:

Quoting Rammstein (Reply 2):
The question is: would he/she be able to use it in the proper way?



Quoting Nkops (Reply 1):
I don't see a solution, who is to say the principal won't go nuts. The people that do these are usually everyday looking students or adults who unfortunately snap usually without warning.

Vaild points, both. But, at least, I believe the option for them to have one available should not be denied them. And, perhaps, it's better to trust 2 or 3 people with access to firearms, instead of just one (in case the one goes nuts).

I do happen to be looking for other solutions as well, folks. Yes, this is a problem, yes, it does need to be addressed and confronted as such, and, yes, there should be discussion as to what possible solutions may be. Sometimes, I get sick of hearing only how awful things are with few or no solutions offered.

-R


User currently offlineNkops From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2698 posts, RR: 6
Reply 5, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 1985 times:

what about metal detectors and x-ray machines like airports??


I have no association with Spirit Airlines
User currently offlineNWA742 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 1971 times:

Quoting Nkops (Reply 5):
what about metal detectors and x-ray machines like airports??

That might help ease the problem of shootings inside a school, but what's to stop some madman from opening up on kids outside of the school, or any public place for that matter?




-NWA742


User currently offlineNkops From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2698 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 1965 times:

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 6):
That might help ease the problem of shootings inside a school, but what's to stop some madman from opening up on kids outside of the school, or any public place for that matter?

True, but most of these incidents are inside the schools... although I agree they could wait outside.

Hey, where is your British friend from the other post, surely he has a solution.
 Big grin



I have no association with Spirit Airlines
User currently offlineNeilYYZ From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 1951 times:

Quoting Allstarflyer (Thread starter):
I suggested the principals should be authorized to carry firearms. It may not be the best solution, but it might be, or, at least, a step in the right direction.

It's not a bad idea. As long as they were trained properly I don't see a problem with it, it could help, and I doubt that it could hurt all that much, so long as the principal doesn't go on a "I'm packing heat you little brat" power trip.

But when I was in high school about 6 years ago there was a guy who decided that it would be a good idea to light our school bathroom on fire with a gallon of gasoline, which he hoped would ignite the pressurized gas in the adjacent room. The pressurized gasses were kept in a room and fed off to the chemistry classrooms. Thankfully there was a fire proof wall and nothing became of it other than a burnt out bathroom.

However, after that incident we had undercover police in our school all the time. And for a period of about two months we had a permanent police presence, didn't bother me in the least. I know that you can't post police at every school, but maybe as part of the patrol every hour or two they could just take a stroll down the halls of schools. Randomize the times, and perhaps the thought that there might be police in the school at any time could help reduce the threat. Just my .02 cents.


User currently offlineNkops From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2698 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 1943 times:

All our middle schools and high schools in my county have city police stationed in them... rarely any violence!!


NWA742... wecome to my (short) RU list!!

[Edited 2006-10-03 00:45:34]


I have no association with Spirit Airlines
User currently offlineNWA742 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 1936 times:

Quoting Nkops (Reply 7):
surely he has a solution

He says he can't provide one, simpy because he isn't an American.

Speaks volumes about his true colors.




-NWA742


User currently offlineQueso From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks ago) and read 1905 times:

Quoting Allstarflyer (Thread starter):
Since school shootings seem to be the crime du jour, does anybody (besides me) care to offer a solution?



Quoting Allstarflyer (Thread starter):
I suggested the principals should be authorized to carry firearms. It may not be the best solution, but it might be, or, at least, a step in the right direction.

Since a couple of others have discussed this aspect of the discussion, I'll jump in here.

Arming educators in the schools works in Israel, in the Phillippines, and in Peru, and it should work here in the US.

Don't limit it to teachers, allow administrators, secretarial, and janitorial staff to carry with adequate background checks and training, on a volunteer basis. Your next airline flight might be piloted by someone who has been properly trained and is armed. If it's good enough to protect a planeful of people, why can't it be good enough to protect our kids? ( http://www.secure-skies.org/Pilots_In_Cockpit.php ) As has been proven, the police just can't make it there fast enough to help out when one of these situations occurs.

From what I understand, arming educators in Israel began after the Ma'alot school massacre, and has been very successful since, both in its rare actual employment and its daily deterrent effect. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maalot_massacre )

Had the staff in any of the recent school shootings been trained and armed, several young people would still be alive tonight. Think of the deterrent effect that it might have. Even if it prevented one occurrence of this happening it would be well worth it.


User currently offlineNeilYYZ From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks ago) and read 1895 times:

Quoting Queso (Reply 11):
Had the staff in any of the recent school shootings been trained and armed, several young people would still be alive tonight. Think of the deterrent effect that it might have. Even if it prevented one occurrence of this happening it would be well worth it.

Provided that they are all provided the proper training and given the right equiptment, which would be a given, I think you've got it bang on.


User currently offlineCptkrell From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3220 posts, RR: 12
Reply 13, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks ago) and read 1892 times:

Gee...I kinda THINK that maybe we should form an investigational panel to THINK about the problem so then they can form another investigational panel to THINK about what steps can be taken to THINK about how the problem might be minimised, and then have another investigational panel THINK about about what penalties what should be imposed on those who we THINK may be a problem to society because we THINK they may be just non-productive, screwed up shit-balls, or maybe we THINK they just have a different perspective on decency because we THINK they might have had an abusive childhood. Or maybe we THINK they might have just eaten too many BigMacs. Regards...jack


all best; jack
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 14, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 1859 times:

Nobody seems to have wondered why there are no non-US posters. Could it be because there is an obvious answer, and I am the only one stupid enough to suppose it can be proposed?

Sorry, missed the Canada flag, apologies.

[Edited 2006-10-03 04:38:34]

[Edited 2006-10-03 04:39:13]

User currently offlinePbottenb From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 431 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 1848 times:

Quoting Baroque (Reply 14):
Nobody seems to have wondered why there are no non-US posters. Could it be because there is an obvious answer, and I am the only one stupid enough to suppose it can be proposed?

Sorry, missed the Canada flag, apologies.

Now that you have solved this problem for us Yanks, perhaps you can put your considerable intellect to use and figure out how to stop the islamofacisit suicide bombers that have killed hundreds of times the number of people over the last 5 years...we await your genius to provide the answer....


User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 16, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 1840 times:

Quoting Pbottenb (Reply 15):
Now that you have solved this problem for us Yanks, perhaps you can put your considerable intellect to use and figure out how to stop the islamofacisit suicide bombers that have killed hundreds of times the number of people over the last 5 years...we await your genius to provide the answer....

Rather touchy this evening are we not?

Assuming you mean Islamo-fascist suicide bombers, it is news to me that they have been doing school shootings. I must remonstrate with the ABC about their lack of this information.

I would have a different solution for suicide attacks and the school attacks.

First you should read what I have already posted on another thread about the term Islamo-fascist and how its misuse hides rather than illuminates the problem. Then, once we get over that hurdle, you could read numerous posts from me, or better yet Klaus and Schoenerama on how to discourage terrorist attacks.

I suspect your evening bout of dyspepsia, may make you less that immediately susceptible to persuasion on these matters so I will stop there.


User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 1801 times:

Quoting Baroque (Reply 14):
Nobody seems to have wondered why there are no non-US posters. Could it be because there is an obvious answer, and I am the only one stupid enough to suppose it can be proposed?

Do you want to stop school shootings or do you want to stop school violence?

There's an interesting phenomenon I've noticed lately.

If you would allow me to, as a professor of mine used to say, "chase a rabbit."
In January 1989, a gunman wielding what is commonly described as an AK-47 committed the Stockton Massacre. The state of California responded with the Roberti-Roos Assault Weapons Act, and of course the Federal Government followed several years later with the Federal assault weapons ban. Pivotal moments in both the anti-gun and pro-gun lobby. As is usual with knee jerk regulating, the model 56s rifle used in the massacre wasn't made illegal by either law. What were made illegal by the two bans however were three of the rifles used during the 1997 North Hollywood shootout. An AKM, an M-16, a Type 56 rifle. All three were also in violation of the National Firearms Act of 1934. Obviously, prior legislation did nothing to prevent this crime. In the worst irony of the North Hollywood shootout and it's legal repercussions, the gun store which provided the police with the needed weapons to combat the shooters, B&B Guns, was forced to shut down due to a lawsuit because they did not abide by the ten day waiting period while providing the police with rifles.


So, to get back on track... Will enacting an all encompassing ban on firearms in the United States stop school shootings? Maybe, maybe not. Previous bans certainly haven't stopped other crimes. Will it stop school violence? Most certainly not. As long as you put two people together in one area there is potential for violence, be it guns, knives, sticks, fists, or as Mr. Kubrick teaches us, shin bones. What will it do for certain? Eliminate 80,000 lawful uses of a firearm in self defense annually.

So, is outlawing guns such an obvious answer? Is Washington DC the safest place in the US?


User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13198 posts, RR: 15
Reply 18, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 1789 times:

While attacks involving schools and other public places have happened all over the world, there seems to be more frequent and deadly when they happen. To me, industrialized societies far too often glorify violence with video games, movies, tv shows are often sources. They also glorify unsustainable and unobtainable lifestyles that many come to think they need. Bad parenting is epidemic. Schools have so much more to teach, with often decreasing incomes and resources,that used to be the responsibility of the parents who no longer have the time or interest in doing so. Many of those parents are under huge financial squeezes and cannot afford higher taxes to pay for the schools needs. Governments don't offer much hope or support for young people.
Schools must continue to be a major place to try to make our children part of society. We must properly fund schools. We must make parents more involved in their childrens life and education. We must use schools as a place to screen people with developing mental health problems. We must make sure they get proper health care in general. We must deal with the social competition, peer pressure, sports/athletic compeition common at schools that often leave many students with poor social skills and not feeling part of the school community. We must teach students better in how to deal with peer pressure as to sex, drugs, violence, social pressures.
Many schools have gone to uniforms or tight appearance codes to discourage gang activity, social competition and to de-sexify appearances. We need to look at ending proms and similar programs as they tend to discriminate against poorer students and those who's personal and religious beliefs discourage such activites. Perhaps we should have students instead do group activites to help their communities, encouraging teamwork and to break down the barriers of class, race, background, economic background. We need to make student more friendly to each other and help each other. We need to fire teachers who are not compentent or favor the easy students to teach.
I don't offer any real single answer, but rather with cooperation of many, perhaps we can make some school violence a lot less.


User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 19, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 1789 times:

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 17):
So, to get back on track... Will enacting an all encompassing ban on firearms in the United States stop school shootings? Maybe, maybe not. Previous bans certainly haven't stopped other crimes. Will it stop school violence? Most certainly not. As long as you put two people together in one area there is potential for violence, be it guns, knives, sticks, fists, or as Mr. Kubrick teaches us, shin bones.

I can agree with many of the thoughts you post MDB, but in relation to the types of crimes we are talking about, guns have a singular utility. They are easy to use, directional so relatively precise, and suitable ones can kill relatively large numbers.

Yes, there would be other ways to achieve these horrible ends, but they are much more difficult, and in some cases more dangerous to the perpetrator.

It is a combination of ease of access, ease of use, and the relative remoteness from the actual killing blow that make guns so "attractive" and so deadly.


User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 1771 times:

Quoting Baroque (Reply 19):
I can agree with many of the thoughts you post MDB, but in relation to the types of crimes we are talking about, guns have a singular utility. They are easy to use, directional so relatively precise, and suitable ones can kill relatively large numbers.

Yes, there would be other ways to achieve these horrible ends, but they are much more difficult, and in some cases more dangerous to the perpetrator.

It is a combination of ease of access, ease of use, and the relative remoteness from the actual killing blow that make guns so "attractive" and so deadly.

That's special, really it is... but it says nothing to what I wrote.

Let me sum up what you wrote for other readers: "Guns are bad, M'kay"

I notice how you said nothing about the fact that despite very strict gun laws in DC and the combination of multiple Federal and state laws in the North Hollywood incident, firearms were/are still used to commit these crimes. AND THEY ARE BANNED. So please, tell us how further bans will help the problem. Do you think the criminals are going to suddenly give in and hand over their weapons when a fifth ban is enacted? I know your first answer, so I'll refute it for you. I predict a, "But it will be harder for the criminals to get guns." Oh really, and just how easy was it for them to get multiple automatic weapons? Very very hard. Near impossible. And yet, they get them. The people who supply automatic weapons aren't going to care about a new law either. It's been illegal since the '30s.

If you only read one portion of this post, or answer one question make it this one. Once you outlaw firearms in the US, how are you going to get them from criminals and keep them from getting new ones? A practical answer now. Since your solution is so "obvious" it shouldn't be a hard question to answer.

Perhaps once you come up with that solution we can start talking about solving violence that occurs without firearms.


User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 21, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 1762 times:

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 20):
That's special, really it is... but it says nothing to what I wrote.

Let me sum up what you wrote for other readers: "Guns are bad, M'kay"

I am not sure who M'kay might be but that is not an accurate summary, so don't traduce me please.

What I said is that guns are really easy to use for bad purposes. It is indeed the people who are bad, the guns are guns. The leap in logic is that making it more difficult for bad folk to get guns, also makes it more difficult for them to use them for bad purposes.

Now when it comes to law enforcement, you are on your own. However, it is rather pointless to deny that some countries have successfully reduced gun crime and have restricted gun ownership. It is a simple fact, they have.

Illegal guns make the matter more complex. A main aim of our police is to reduce the number of illegal guns. They are not always successful, but they generally seem to think that stricter laws help with the illegals too.


User currently offlineTexdravid From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1365 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 1759 times:

How about starting with strict new gun legislation. I know, I know, the "right to bear arms" b.s.

Well, weapons are hundreds of times more powerful in magnitude and 1 idiot+1uzi+several magazines/clips can wipe out 100 people!

This lunacy is intolerable.

We need real, sustained and strict gun enforcement now. This whole hunting culture in rural areas needs to go, as it is a medieval practice. Urban violence would be greatly curtailed if guns were taken out of the equation.

I'm so sick of gun-lovers, their apologists, etc. I wish they would all go to hell and we can stop mourning these innocent kids shot almost daily.

Arming school administrators, principals, and having x-ray machines is also good, don't get me wrong, but decreasing the amount of firepower out there to the average joe is tantamount.



Tort reform now. Throw lawyers in jail later.
User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 1756 times:

Quoting Baroque (Reply 21):
. However, it is rather pointless to deny that some countries have successfully reduced gun crime and have restricted gun ownership. It is a simple fact, they have.

Some countries have reduced gun crime, but have they reduced crime by eliminating guns?

You seem unable to make a distinction between gun crime and crime.

Eliminating a specific subset of crime is a pointless exercise in semantics.

I asked in the other thread if you were anti-firearm or anti-crime. I think it very significant that you didn't bother to answer. Will the world be a better place when people are stabbed, bludgeoned and beaten to death instead of being shot? The criminal dictates the crime, not the tool he uses.

Quoting Texdravid (Reply 22):
We need real, sustained and strict gun enforcement now. This whole hunting culture in rural areas needs to go, as it is a medieval practice. Urban violence would be greatly curtailed if guns were taken out of the equation.

I'm so sick of gun-lovers, their apologists, etc. I wish they would all go to hell and we can stop mourning these innocent kids shot almost daily.

Do you really think that keeping me from hunting would have saved those kids?

Do you?

If you do, I'm sorry for you.


User currently offlineLehpron From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 7028 posts, RR: 21
Reply 24, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 1703 times:

Quoting Allstarflyer (Thread starter):
Since school shootings seem to be the crime du jour, does anybody (besides me) care to offer a solution?

How about stop bullying people and making them feel out of place? Could that start the ball rolling? If you think it is okay and normal I will not put a rose on your grave. That moron fatass Moore scapegoated the issue and dragged in guns and now everyone thinks school shootings are about the easily attainable firearms.



The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
25 AAden : that wont stop anything, the kids will just use an open window or shoot the security guards and then go into the school. most of the school shootings
26 Post contains images Queso :
27 Post contains links and images Allstarflyer : I disagree. Here's proof - check out this thread, reply 109: http://www.airliners.net/discussions/non_aviation/read.main/1388983/ Glad your heart is
28 Fumanchewd : These school shootings aren't because of guns but are a symptom of our society. Modern day Americans (and gradually the rest of the world) have a mixt
29 Queso : Well, I've got to admit that when I saw you had replied in this thread, I thought "oh shit, another one of those......", but your post was very insig
30 Fumanchewd : Thank you for the compliment, but I have to admit that it was due to no character trait of mine. It just so happens I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express
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