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Journalist Opposed To Russia's Chechen War Killed  
User currently offlineN229NW From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 1972 posts, RR: 31
Posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2251 times:

Politskaya is the "the 13th Russian journalist to be killed in a contract-style killing since President Vladimir Putin came to power in 2000," according to this article. Pretty scary stuff.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/russia/article/0,,1890857,00.html

I'd be interested to hear from more Russian members here, but it is my impression that the Putin government has kept a very tight lid on criticism of the Chechnya war in all widely disseminated media (since 2001 this has been helped by using the American "war on terror" type rhetoric to justify it), and that consequently most Russians don't really question the legitimacy or tactics of the war ...


It's people like you what cause unrest!
20 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently onlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21851 posts, RR: 55
Reply 1, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2246 times:

Pretty scary stuff, indeed.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineTu204 From Russia, joined Mar 2006, 1255 posts, RR: 17
Reply 2, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2242 times:

Doesn't seem that this killing had much to do with Chechnya as she was on good terms with Chechen vice-premier Ramzan Kadyrov and president Vladimir Putin. But there is no war in Chechnya anymore, and most of the forces keeping an eye on the republic are not federal troops but Interior Forces of the Chechen Republic (Chechen police forces - basically former rebels)
For the record, I do not agree in the tactics that were used in the war, especially the first one especially because the war was purely for political reasons between the leaders of Russia and the Chechen Republic.



I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
User currently offlineBravo45 From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 2165 posts, RR: 11
Reply 3, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2235 times:

Quoting Tu204 (Reply 2):
For the record, I do not agree in the tactics that were used in the war, especially the first one especially because the war was purely for political reasons between the leaders of Russia and the Chechen Republic.

Glad to have read this before posting the response. I commend you for this, the Russian I have tried to have a discussion with, maybe out of national pride reason don't acknowledge the truth.

Quoting Tu204 (Reply 2):
Doesn't seem that this killing had much to do with Chechnya as she was on good terms with Chechen vice-premier Ramzan Kadyrov and president Vladimir Putin.

I am no longer very familiar with the Chechen affairs but have always believed they installed a puppet government. I imply the fact you point out that the journalist had good relations with the Chechen govt means he was not so much against official Russian stance. Is that what you meant?

Quoting Tu204 (Reply 2):
But there is no war in Chechnya anymore, and most of the forces keeping an eye on the republic are not federal troops but Interior Forces of the Chechen Republic (Chechen police forces - basically former rebels)

Interesting! Information is hard to find (from reliable sources) because lot of info is in Russian. Can you point me to some English links or forums of Chechens or Russians etc.
Thanks
Best Regards,
Jawad.


User currently offlineBravo45 From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 2165 posts, RR: 11
Reply 4, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2226 times:

Quoting Tu204 (Reply 2):
Doesn't seem that this killing had much to do with Chechnya as she was on good terms with Chechen vice-premier Ramzan Kadyrov and president Vladimir Putin.

I am hearing from a Moscow 'writer' (probably a Journalist, interviewed on NPR) that she (Politskaya) was threatened by Ramzan Kadyrov.
This is sad, she seem to have done a lot of work. Wonder if anyone will even be charged. This interview gave me the impression that people in Russia know how obvious is the involvement of Kremlin in this. I think I need some catching up to do regarding recent events in Chechnya.


User currently offlineJutes85 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 2223 times:

ZA RODINU!!

User currently offlineBravo45 From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 2165 posts, RR: 11
Reply 6, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 2222 times:

Quoting Jutes85 (Reply 5):
ZA RODINU!!

Signed,
Ivan.


User currently offlineTu204 From Russia, joined Mar 2006, 1255 posts, RR: 17
Reply 7, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 2215 times:

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 3):
I am no longer very familiar with the Chechen affairs but have always believed they installed a puppet government. I imply the fact you point out that the journalist had good relations with the Chechen govt means he was not so much against official Russian stance. Is that what you meant?

Well, the situation in the Chechen Republic is hard for you and me to understand because of the society that we live in. I can give you the basics about theirs: The family is very close, most of the villages' populations consists of just one extended family, where the women would get married with men from another family and go live in their village (and vice versa). There is also the huge issues of family feuds - if some other family offended yours, even if 100 years have passed, you still despise them. If someone killed one of your family members, you must avenge his death, if you don't - you will be disgraced. My chechen friend told me about another family that kidnapped someone from his family in the late 19th century and they still have a feud with them because the other family did not apologize formally.
You also have two divisions of the republic - the people living in the mountain regions and those living in the plains. They don't like each other too much.
Where I am getting at: the current government is not installed, the previous one was but the current government (mainly Ramzan Kadyrov and his close circle) made their way into power. You know, the odd "car accident" or resignation. However the Russian government does support Ramzan Kadyrov because he has more power than anyone else in the republic (his family is the most powerful) As you can see, this would obviously piss some other families off. Kadyrov himself has a pro-russian stance because of his late father, Akhmad (who was the head mufti of the Chechen Republic and declared jihad on the Russian forces during the first war but then changed his stance and became pro-russian during the second war and was later "installed" as the president of the Chechen Republic until he was killed in 2004. Then after general elections Alu Alkhanov was elected and became the president. Ramzan Kadyrov was appointed vice-premier. A year ago the prime minister of the Chechen Republic, Sergey Abramov was injured in a car crash and resigned in favour of Ramzan. So now Ramzan is prime minister but will most likely be appointed president in the next term (he just turned 30 on the 4th of October, and according to the constitution you must be at least 30 to become president of the republic). Also keep in mind that Alu Alkhanov (president) is of a different family and has some strained relations with Ramzan (almost to the point of a firefight when Alkhanov did not invite Ramzan to a meeting with an official from the Federal Security Service (FSB) although both of them denied this even happened.
Since the Chechen Republic is a presidential republic, the head is the president (who is nominated by the president of the Russian Federation and then must be approved by the Chechen Republic's Government), however, the interior ministry answers to the prime minister (head of government, who is appointed by the government which itself is elected by a general election of all citizens of the republic). So it is unclear which one of them is actually more powerful. The president, Alu Alkhanov was elected by a general election (this was before the rules changed and the president is nominated, as I said above) but he was the pro-russian candidate. Akhmad Kadyrov is also pro-russian but more extreme, to the point of banning rambling, alchahol and is now trying to pass a bill to include study of the Koran in all schools of the republic, banning all dutch nationals from the republic after the cartoon scandal (even though he had no right - the migration policy is determined by the federal government, not the republican so this was quickly overturned), he also tried to make polygamy legal in republic under the pretense that it is permitted by the Koran (however this did not work out either because under the Russian law, marriage is limited to one man and one woman, and Russian law cannot be contradicted by republican law), he also tried to make a law forcing women to wear headscarves (again, that failed because it contradicts the Russian federal law about feedoms), he is also intent on building Europe's largest mosque in downtown Grozny, he is hiring the worlds best wrestling coaches with the intent on making the Russian Olympic Westling Team "consist almost entirely of Chechens", he was filmed on a phone camera, although the film is unclear, naked with a couple nice naked women in a sauna in Moscow and he tried to take credit for the opening of one of the most advanced airports in Europe in the republic's capital, Grozny (last week, although it was paid for by Aeroflot-Russian Airlines and the federal government). So you can see that he is a strange individual who likes to make alot of extreme decisions, but then again, this gives a nice popularity boost. He is also constantly complaining that the Federal Government does not give the Chechen Republic enough money for reconstruction. There is no talk of any independence, quite the opposite, although being critical of the Federal government at times. He also wants the remaining federal forces (except for the Federal Border Guardsto leave the republic as the Chechen interior forces are more than capable to control the situation in the republic. The only forces remaining are several anti-terrorist units (less than 600 in total). There is also a federal army base located near Borzoi but that is permanently there unlike the other federal troops that were there for the war and then the anti-terrorism operation, but the federal forces have not seen action for a while because Ramzan uses his forces (Chechen Interior Forces) for any operations because he personally blames the extremist fighters for the death of his father to the point that he personally wanted to kill Shamil Basayev. Ramzan is disliked by many Chechens for his violent, impulsive and somewhat primitive nature unlike his father who was respected by the majority of chechens regardless of clan.

Well, this is a subject that I could write a book about, so that was the "very brief" Big grin (don't laugh) description of the situation and of the politics. I am kind of tired and apoligize for any stupid grammar mistakes that I have made there. If you have any more questions, please ask.



I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
User currently offlineTu204 From Russia, joined Mar 2006, 1255 posts, RR: 17
Reply 8, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2212 times:

Forgot to answer the main question, no, I mean that she had good relations with both the Chechens and the Russian government. I think you are thinking of Paul Khlebnikov that was killed for writting very bad things about a certain Chechen warlord who he interviewed, who was later killed himself.


I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
User currently offlineBravo45 From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 2165 posts, RR: 11
Reply 9, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2205 times:

Quoting Tu204 (Reply 7):
banning all dutch nationals from the republic after the cartoon scandal

I assume you meant Danish. Either way its a disgrace. I am myself a Muslim and was totally disgusted by that scandal (though I believe the Pope incident was blown out of proportions) but still I couldn't believe how many Danish themselves condemned the newspaper. This action is in no way justified by Islam. A popularity seeking move, maybe, but nothing more.

Quoting Tu204 (Reply 7):
also tried to make polygamy legal in republic under the pretense that it is permitted by the Koran

Well you have to look at the local traditions for things like these. I am not all that familiar with Chechen culture but I can comment on Pakistan (my native country), where its allowed (I think still) but from the beginning there is a requirement of written permission by both wives etc and I heard they are changing that too. BTW I wouldn't call this even a popularity seeking move, I am in fact confused at this. Probably the traditions in Chechnya will answer why he made this an issue.

Quoting Tu204 (Reply 7):
he tried to take credit for the opening of one of the most advanced airports in Europe in the republic's capital, Grozny (last week, although it was paid for by Aeroflot-Russian Airlines and the federal government).

Wow!! Didn't know that. Good luck to Grozny. Looks like things are getting better faster than I thought. Chechnya BTW is one of my top 'to see' places.

Quoting Tu204 (Reply 7):
The only forces remaining are several anti-terrorist units (less than 600 in total)

That's news to me.

What you describe about the Chechen people and their family feuds and them living together is, believe me totally understandable to me. I have been living with and am interested in the Afghans and the Pushtu's that live in Pakistan and would have described them the same way to you adding, 'Its not easy to understand these people'. I say this often when discussion Afghanistan.
I am truly amazed at the image you gave of Ramzan Kadyrov. He appears to be a man full of conflictions. It'll be interesting to read more about him.
Thanks a lot for the post, really enjoyed reading it all. Are you from Chechnya? I haven't found ordinary Russians so familiar with Chechen people and their culture. About myself I was born and raised in Pakistan, been in the US for about 4 years now. I remember I first heard of problems in Chechnya when I was in 6th grade, that was the time of the earlier invasion but it was the second invasion and the brutality I came to hear about that really sparked an interest in me to learn more about the people and the conflict. I feel bad to say but so far I haven't been able to do anything even nominal to help so I just wanted to be aware. But obviously it was from reading stuff online, a few books etc. So far (and I am a little surprised) I haven't met a Chechen in the US.
I guess that might give you an idea of what I may know. Recommendation or any good sources to learn more from will be great and I think I will end my this little post here and wait for your next.
Thanks again! Peace!


User currently offlineTu204 From Russia, joined Mar 2006, 1255 posts, RR: 17
Reply 10, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 2200 times:

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 9):
I assume you meant Danish. Either way its a disgrace. I am myself a Muslim and was totally disgusted by that scandal (though I believe the Pope incident was blown out of proportions) but still I couldn't believe how many Danish themselves condemned the newspaper. This action is in no way justified by Islam. A popularity seeking move, maybe, but nothing more.

I also think that that was absolutely disgusting and that the Danish apology was far from honest. The pope's comments were just as bad. You don't see such comments about other religions, I am sure if it would have been a cartoon about jews or christians it would not have made the press. Freedom of speech should have limits when it clearly offends others.

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 9):
Well you have to look at the local traditions for things like these. I am not all that familiar with Chechen culture but I can comment on Pakistan (my native country), where its allowed (I think still) but from the beginning there is a requirement of written permission by both wives etc and I heard they are changing that too. BTW I wouldn't call this even a popularity seeking move, I am in fact confused at this. Probably the traditions in Chechnya will answer why he made this an issue.

It would not go against Chechen traditions and it is permitted by the Koran to have up to 4 wives, but according to Russian Federal law that is not permitted, and the republican law cannot contradict federal law. But polygamy was not widely practiced in Chechnya at any time. Ramzan said that it would solve the problem of declining population and the women that are left unwed (there are more women and men in Chechnya) .

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 9):
Thanks a lot for the post, really enjoyed reading it all. Are you from Chechnya? I haven't found ordinary Russians so familiar with Chechen people and their culture. About myself I was born and raised in Pakistan, been in the US for about 4 years now.

You are welcome. I am not from Chechnya but my best friend is Chechen from Grozny and I have been there more than once now and I speak a bit of Chechen. The people are very welcoming and kind and make great food. It is a real pity what happened to them and I feel ashamed that this happened. Alot of lives were destroyed in a conflict that neither the Russian nor the Chechen people wanted. It is getting safer there with every month and you would be welcomed there if you visited, especially since you are muslim.
peace

By the way, here is a photo of Ramzan.

President Alkhanov (left) and Prime minister Kadyrov (right):



I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
User currently offlineBravo45 From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 2165 posts, RR: 11
Reply 11, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2184 times:

Quoting Tu204 (Reply 10):
Freedom of speech should have limits when it clearly offends others.

Exactly. And Europe does have them. On things like the Holocaust denial. I bet it was embarrassing for them when the David Irving thing came up just when they were trying to justify the cartoons by proclaiming freedom of speech. But of course none of that justifies any of the rioting and the attack on the embassy. Nor this above mentioned move by Ramzan. The Pope saga on the other hand, through very naive of the Pope, was for the most part a typical media game to get business via spreading misunderstanding.

Quoting Tu204 (Reply 10):
It would not go against Chechen traditions and it is permitted by the Koran to have up to 4 wives, but according to Russian Federal law that is not permitted, and the republican law cannot contradict federal law. But polygamy was not widely practiced in Chechnya at any time.

Well then I have no idea why would he do such a thing.

Quoting Tu204 (Reply 10):
Ramzan said that it would solve the problem of declining population and the women that are left unwed (there are more women and men in Chechnya) .

Well with the kind of war that happened its not unusual, but Ramzan's collaboration with the Russians and acting like a 'to the letter Muslim' is beyond me. I don't think his forces are popular among people. From what little I have learned of his and the security forces, he seems to be suppressing his own people and thus his attitude appear fake. I know that's just a first impression.
Please don't be offended, but I have held the view favoring giving Chechens a referendum to choose freedom from Russia. I tell you this because you are the most reasonable Russian I have spoken with on this topic. Others give me the impression that Russians think of Chechens as slaves and are only interested in the natural resources of the land with no reasonable claim, looking back all the way to the Comunists, Stalin, The Czars and what the people of Chechnya have gone through. If you disagree (both with my assessment and the freedom option for Chechnya) which I admit might be the case for huge number of Russians who are like you, can you please give me a proper Russian case against Chechnya's complete freedom. And also how does Ingushtia fits into the whole picture, don't the Chechens want to reunite?

Quoting Tu204 (Reply 10):
I am not from Chechnya but my best friend is Chechen from Grozny and I have been there more than once now and I speak a bit of Chechen.

Aahaan! That explain's it. I bet you are no different than average Russians. It's lack of understanding that creates the sterotypes. Funny how knowing one Chechen friend makes such a difference. If only and merely such understanding was widespread, I bet this conflict would have been long over.

Quoting Tu204 (Reply 10):
The people are very welcoming and kind and make great food. It is a real pity what happened to them and I feel ashamed that this happened. Alot of lives were destroyed in a conflict that neither the Russian nor the Chechen people wanted. It is getting safer there with every month and you would be welcomed there if you visited, especially since you are muslim.
peace

I feel I have become aware of the friendly nature of the people already. I hope this conflict ends soon so both Russians and Chechens can live without fear or pain. Amen!


User currently offlineN229NW From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 1972 posts, RR: 31
Reply 12, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2169 times:

Thanks Tu204. This is a very interesting and informative thread. I have some opinions, but I'm also learning more about this subject, so please keep the information coming.

PS: I left a syllable of out Politkovskaya's name in the opening post, but it was too late to edit. Sorry.

PPS:
"Police were last night hunting a man in a white baseball cap who was filmed by a CCTV camera entering the building a few moments before she was shot three times in the chest and once in the head."

Quoting Tu204 (Reply 10):
By the way, here is a photo of Ramzan.


 scratchchin  Hmmm, white baseball cap..

Just kidding...



It's people like you what cause unrest!
User currently offlineBravo45 From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 2165 posts, RR: 11
Reply 13, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2167 times:

Quoting N229NW (Reply 12):
Hmmm, white baseball cap..

      
No wonder I suspect he is just 'being' a Muslim. Good observation.   

Edited: Now that look closely at that pic, is that Mike Tyson with him???

Edited again: It is Mike Tyson, so he was attending a boxing tournament! Must have been big news. Is boxing big there or what the story behind it?
[Edited 2006-10-09 16:39:36]

[Edited 2006-10-09 16:42:37]

User currently offlineTu204 From Russia, joined Mar 2006, 1255 posts, RR: 17
Reply 14, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 2118 times:

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 13):
Edited: Now that look closely at that pic, is that Mike Tyson with him???

Edited again: It is Mike Tyson, so he was attending a boxing tournament! Must have been big news. Is boxing big there or what the story behind it?

Oh, the two of them are good friends. He came to Gurdermes (second largest city in the Chechen Republic) for the Russian boxing championship.

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 11):
Well with the kind of war that happened its not unusual, but Ramzan's collaboration with the Russians and acting like a 'to the letter Muslim' is beyond me. I don't think his forces are popular among people. From what little I have learned of his and the security forces, he seems to be suppressing his own people and thus his attitude appear fake. I know that's just a first impression.
Please don't be offended, but I have held the view favoring giving Chechens a referendum to choose freedom from Russia. I tell you this because you are the most reasonable Russian I have spoken with on this topic. Others give me the impression that Russians think of Chechens as slaves and are only interested in the natural resources of the land with no reasonable claim, looking back all the way to the Comunists, Stalin, The Czars and what the people of Chechnya have gone through. If you disagree (both with my assessment and the freedom option for Chechnya) which I admit might be the case for huge number of Russians who are like you, can you please give me a proper Russian case against Chechnya's complete freedom. And also how does Ingushtia fits into the whole picture, don't the Chechens want to reunite?

Reuniting with Ingushetia is out of the question because they were forcefully "united" by Stalin into the Chechen-Ingush ASSR. The only thing that they have in common is that they are muslim, other than that they are pretty different people.
Well the general idea I got from the Chechens is that they don't want to be independent from Russia but would like to be left in peace. Actually, the constitution of Russia entitles them to just that, as after all they are a "Republic", not an "oblast'". The other reason that they would not like for any independence movements is because they do not want any more conflicts - they had enough of that and everyone knows, where there is talk of independence, conflicts are not far behind. And in these conflicts it usually ended up being the civilians that suffered.
For the record, I think they are the kindest, most welcoming and most honorable nationality...all you have to do is get to know them a little.



I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
User currently offlineBravo45 From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 2165 posts, RR: 11
Reply 15, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 2101 times:

Quoting Tu204 (Reply 14):
Oh, the two of them are good friends. He came to Gurdermes (second largest city in the Chechen Republic) for the Russian boxing championship.

Nice!

Quoting Tu204 (Reply 14):
Actually, the constitution of Russia entitles them to just that, as after all they are a "Republic"

Well that's the thing I am confused about. I think the rebels want total independence, is that a fair understanding? I know I need to learn more but I think along the lines: What was different in Chechnya's case compared to the rest of the breakaway republics, they made it while Chechnya didn't seem to even get close? I don't wanna flood you with questions so you don't feel obliged to give a lengthy response, I've been trying to find some good books on the subject, feel free to recommend. My fear is that the conflict which is very old has gone to extremes of radical limits on top of the changes in the world recently. The regard for civilians seem non existent at times (by both sides). I wonder how what effect that leaves on the senses of compromise on both sides.

Quoting Tu204 (Reply 14):
The other reason that they would not like for any independence movements is because they do not want any more conflicts - they had enough of that and everyone knows, where there is talk of independence, conflicts are not far behind. And in these conflicts it usually ended up being the civilians that suffered.

Totally understand and not only that, its one of the things I often wonder about. Like Chechens being contend to be left along in peace if they can come to good terms with Russia. And please also don't get me wrong, I am not anti-Russian nor do I hate Russian, wanting Chechnya to break away, be it by blood. Its just that this part of the world, the Caucasus, fascinates me and breaks my heart to see the bloodshed (Chechnya, Armenia etc).

Quoting Tu204 (Reply 14):
For the record, I think they are the kindest, most welcoming and most honorable nationality...all you have to do is get to know them a little.

This is EXACTLY the impression I have (along with the Afghan and Pushtun people, see the other thread I started Video From Pakistan's Nwfp (by Bravo45 Oct 8 2006 in Non Aviation)) and these are the exact words I wanted to say above.


User currently offlineSoyuzavia From Australia, joined Jun 2005, 606 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 2090 times:
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I don't believe for a second Politkovskaya's claims that she was poisoned by the government, for this would have required the complicity of a host of S7 staff - it wouldn't happen. Whilst there is some truth in what she has written about Chechnya, she is part of this whole Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty Group - take anything written by them with a kilo of salt.

Doesn't excuse her murder of course.

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 15):
I think the rebels want total independence, is that a fair understanding?

No, the terrorists not only want independence from the Russian Federation, but they want to turn the Caucasus into a Taliban-like Islamic caliphate which would take in not only Chechnya, but Ingushetia and Dagestan, which could then extend to take in Ossetia (North & South) and other surrounding regions (Georgia, Stavropol, etc). The likeness to the Taliban is such that the Taliban was the only 'government' to recognise the so-called Chechen Republic of Ichkeria; bar it was recognised by the nationalist Georgian government led by Gamsakhurdia in the early 1990s.

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 15):
What was different in Chechnya's case compared to the rest of the breakaway republics, they made it while Chechnya didn't seem to even get close?

The other Republics were constituent Union Republics of the USSR, and had the right to secede under Article 72 of the 1977 Constitution of the USSR.

Chechnya on the other hand was not a Union Republic of the USSR, but rather an Autonomous Republic and constituent in the RSFSR, and as such had no rights to secede from the USSR.


User currently offlineTu204 From Russia, joined Mar 2006, 1255 posts, RR: 17
Reply 17, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2056 times:

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 15):
Well that's the thing I am confused about. I think the rebels want total independence, is that a fair understanding? I know I need to learn more but I think along the lines: What was different in Chechnya's case compared to the rest of the breakaway republics, they made it while Chechnya didn't seem to even get close? I don't wanna flood you with questions so you don't feel obliged to give a lengthy response, I've been trying to find some good books on the subject, feel free to recommend. My fear is that the conflict which is very old has gone to extremes of radical limits on top of the changes in the world recently. The regard for civilians seem non existent at times (by both sides). I wonder how what effect that leaves on the senses of compromise on both sides.



Quoting Soyuzavia (Reply 16):
The other Republics were constituent Union Republics of the USSR, and had the right to secede under Article 72 of the 1977 Constitution of the USSR.

Chechnya on the other hand was not a Union Republic of the USSR, but rather an Autonomous Republic and constituent in the RSFSR, and as such had no rights to secede from the USSR.

Exactly. Although the subjects of the Russian Federation did have to sign the Federation Charter, effectively making them a part of the Russian Federation. Most subjects did this in 1991-1992 with one exception, the Republic of Tatarstan, which was independent untill december 2000 when it signed the charter. The Chechen Republic signed the charter along with the other republics in 1991. The only reason that Tatarstan did not was because they had a referendum on whether or not to join the Russian Federation and the population voted for independence which lasted for 9 years untill another referendum voted in favour of joining the Russian Federation. There was no conflict there.
You must also keep in mind that the rebels do not represent the Chechen people any more than the Boris Yeltsin did or Berezovsky (who made alot of money on the conflict, and is now sitting in London making himself look like a "demorcrat in exile" he should be tried for war crimes more than anyone else in this whole conflict. The Chechen people are hurt more than anyone from terrorist acts carried out by the people that claim to represent them because it makes the news and portrays them in a very negative light. I shouldn't even have to mention that taking pregnant women hostage in a hospital is gisrgraceful, cowardly to say the least, as is taking hostage a school full of small children. As my friend said: That is not representing the interests of the Chechen people, it only makes people from around the world hate and despise us saying that we are animals for killing innocent and helpless people especially because in Chechnya children and the elderly are treated with great respect, regardless of nationality.
The other point is that Ramzan doesn't represent the entire republic either, but rather his clan (family) and the allying families while punishing the entire families of Maskhadov, Basayev, Dudayev and the others. (Keep in mind that when I say "family" I don't mean 3-4 people but something along the lines of 80-100. So I guess you have something like two extremes.

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 15):
Totally understand and not only that, its one of the things I often wonder about. Like Chechens being contend to be left along in peace if they can come to good terms with Russia. And please also don't get me wrong, I am not anti-Russian nor do I hate Russian, wanting Chechnya to break away, be it by blood. Its just that this part of the world, the Caucasus, fascinates me and breaks my heart to see the bloodshed (Chechnya, Armenia etc).

I understand that. I haven't heard much about the conflict in Armenia mainly because I have no Armenian friends and have never been there. But you should read into the conflict of Abkhazia and Transnistria. You can really see the double standards here. They want the independence and have had referendums but the OSCE says that they are invalid before the referendums even take place.



I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
User currently offlineBravo45 From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 2165 posts, RR: 11
Reply 18, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2031 times:

Quoting Soyuzavia (Reply 16):
No, the terrorists not only want independence from the Russian Federation, but they want to turn the Caucasus into a Taliban-like Islamic caliphate which would take in not only Chechnya, but Ingushetia and Dagestan, which could then extend to take in Ossetia (North & South) and other surrounding regions (Georgia, Stavropol, etc). quote]
Hmm... Never heard of that. Fool's paradise, I don't think its possible under any circumstances. That may be the aim of Al Qaeda, but I doubt any locals would take any of it seriously.

[quote=Soyuzavia,reply=16]The other Republics were constituent Union Republics of the USSR, and had the right to secede under Article 72 of the 1977 Constitution of the USSR.

Chechnya on the other hand was not a Union Republic of the USSR, but rather an Autonomous Republic and constituent in the RSFSR, and as such had no rights to secede from the USSR.

Yeah that's the part of history I need to read more into. How and why did it happen then and now (at least some) people are unhappy.

Quoting Tu204 (Reply 17):
You must also keep in mind that the rebels do not represent the Chechen people any more than the Boris Yeltsin did or Berezovsky (who made alot of money on the conflict, and is now sitting in London making himself look like a "demorcrat in exile" he should be tried for war crimes more than anyone else in this whole conflict. The Chechen people are hurt more than anyone from terrorist acts carried out by the people that claim to represent them because it makes the news and portrays them in a very negative light. I shouldn't even have to mention that taking pregnant women hostage in a hospital is gisrgraceful, cowardly to say the least, as is taking hostage a school full of small children. As my friend said: That is not representing the interests of the Chechen people, it only makes people from around the world hate and despise us saying that we are animals for killing innocent and helpless people especially because in Chechnya children and the elderly are treated with great respect, regardless of nationality.

I agree, and in perfect world hope for justice to be served to ordinary people, both Russian and Chechen. Its always the people who pay the price.

Quoting Tu204 (Reply 17):
The other point is that Ramzan doesn't represent the entire republic either, but rather his clan (family) and the allying families while punishing the entire families of Maskhadov, Basayev, Dudayev and the others. (Keep in mind that when I say "family" I don't mean 3-4 people but something along the lines of 80-100. So I guess you have something like two extremes.

I agree there too. And as rare as news from that part of the world is, I try not to focus on individuals including Basayev and Maskhadov, but I felt the Russia could have alienated the radicals by only dealing with Maskhadov who was better than the rest and he was willing to negotiate. With his death, there was no clear representation of the other side and that gap was then apparently filled by Basayev.

Quoting Tu204 (Reply 17):
But you should read into the conflict of Abkhazia and Transnistria.

Sure will, and as it's turning out, I can look at many things I can learn a lot about.


User currently offlineSoyuzavia From Australia, joined Jun 2005, 606 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 2017 times:
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Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 18):
Hmm... Never heard of that. Fool's paradise, I don't think its possible under any circumstances. That may be the aim of Al Qaeda, but I doubt any locals would take any of it seriously.

Yep, the Chechen terrorists are fools if they believe that they will ever succeed in their aim of having an Islamic caliphate which covers the entire Caucasus region. It is this aim which warmed OBL to the Chechens.

Movladi Udugov, the Chechen terrorist Press and Information Minister has gone on the record several times this year as saying that it is no longer the aim to simply gain Chechen independence, but to expel Russia from the entire northern Caucasus region and to introduce an Islamic caliphate.

Udugov is, by Chechen Islamic standards, an extremist, so those Chechens who support 'legitimate' Chechen independence would be best stopping people such as Udugov from talking on their behalf, as it isn't doing their cause any good.

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 18):
Yeah that's the part of history I need to read more into. How and why did it happen then and now (at least some) people are unhappy.

Basically, when Gorbachev told the Republics to seek their sovereignty, he only had the authority to do so under the USSR Constitution to advise the Union Republics to do so, as the autonomous republics came under the RSFSR (in the case of Chechnya) Constitution, and Yeltsin, as Chairman of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic issued no such decree under the RSFSR Constitution.


User currently offlineBravo45 From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 2165 posts, RR: 11
Reply 20, posted (8 years 2 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 1998 times:

Quoting Soyuzavia (Reply 19):
It is this aim which warmed OBL to the Chechens.

I would think it must be the OBL aid and Al Qaeda infiltration that started this idea. I know Chechens were getting a lot of help from Taliban when they recognised Chechnya as an independent country.

Quoting Soyuzavia (Reply 19):
so those Chechens who support 'legitimate' Chechen independence would be best stopping people such as Udugov from talking on their behalf, as it isn't doing their cause any good.

Agreed and I can't think of any other reason to have people like Maskhadov killed other than the Russian leadership's desire to make the entire Chechen legitimate demand look like what you claim the movement (now leaderless BTW) is heading towards. And not to mention, I have never heard such a thing before, I hope these notions die out soon. Now I may be blatantly wrong in saying the above, but the Russians will have be blatantly incompetant not see the results of their actions for this to be wrong. It was a common understanding that the conflict can be resolved until the ousted government was some what intact.

Quoting Soyuzavia (Reply 19):
...and Yeltsin, as Chairman of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic issued no such decree under the RSFSR Constitution.

I see, makes a lot more sense now.


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