The Turkish government fiercely denies a genocide, saying that hundreds of thousands of Turks and Armenians died in a civil war.
Under Turkish law, it is illegal to accuse the state of genocide. Scores of Turkish writers and intellectuals who have debated the massacres publicly have faced prosecution under article 301 of the penal code, outlawing insults to "Turkishness".
OK, we all know that in Turkey it is illegal to discuss Armenian genocide. French MPs probably though that the best they could do is to drop down to their level adopt equally stupid measure which says that it is criminal act to deny that Armenian genocide indeed happened.
Meanwhile the BS, continues....
In retaliation, the Turkish parliament's justice committee will on Wednesday discuss a draft plan to imprison people who deny that France committed genocide during its colonial rule over Algeria.
AerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 1, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 3359 times:
Quoting L410Turbolet (Thread starter): "French MPs are due to discuss the bill - which would make it a crime to deny that Turkey perpetrated a genocide against Armenians."
Quoting L410Turbolet (Thread starter): In retaliation, the Turkish parliament's justice committee will on Wednesday discuss a draft plan to imprison people who deny that France committed genocide during its colonial rule over Algeria.
It's sure "nice" to know that valuable taxpayer money is going toward the legislative equivalent of an argument over whose d*ck is larger.
Honestly, is this parliamentary debate, or is it close to naptime at preschool? Sometimes, it's very hard to tell the difference.
Pyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 3626 posts, RR: 28 Reply 5, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 3305 times:
Quoting L410Turbolet (Thread starter): French MPs probably though that the best they could do is to drop down to their level adopt equally stupid measure which says that it is criminal act to deny that Armenian genocide indeed happened.
Isn't it a crime to deny the holocaust in Germany?
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
Klaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21346 posts, RR: 54 Reply 6, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 3267 times:
Quoting Solnabo (Reply 2): It´s forbidden to speak kurdish in Turkey....so I´ve heard! True?
It was until relatively recently. The kurdish culture was completely suppressed for a long time, but that only emboldened the more radical kurds.
With the kurds in Iraq being on the verge of official secession, Turkey has intense fears of something similar happening to them as well (which might lead to a post-turkish/iraqi/iranian Kurdistan and a corresponding loss of territory for all three states).
But since repression didn't work (and its total incompatibility with Turkey's EU aspirations), the anti-kurdish policies have been retracted to a certain degree in recent years.
Quoting Pyrex (Reply 5): Isn't it a crime to deny the holocaust in Germany?
Indeed. Although I have my doubts if it makes sense to ban the denial of other countries' genocides...
The turkish denial of the anti-armenian massacres is understandable to a point, but it would be the first infected wound that got better by denying its existence...!
Klaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21346 posts, RR: 54 Reply 8, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 3212 times:
Quoting Pyrex (Reply 7): I am not sure but I believe denying the holocaust is a crime in some other countries as well... can't tell you which ones, though.
I can still sort of see the point as long as one's own country had suffered under the genocide, which covers most of Europe in case of the Holocaust; But I'm not too sure about the size of the armenian minority in France...
AerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 9, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 3191 times:
Quoting Klaus (Reply 8): I can still sort of see the point as long as one's own country had suffered under the genocide, which covers most of Europe in case of the Holocaust; But I'm not too sure about the size of the armenian minority in France...
If politicians can't agree about history, how in blazes can they agree about a common future? The future is, after all, nothing more than history with a bit of patience.
No wonder folks are wondering about whether Turkey should be in the EU.
AerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 11, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 3181 times:
Quoting TurkishWings (Reply 10): Yet another way of bashing Turkey and making it more difficult for us to enter the EU. Frankly, I am not sure if the EU deserves our membership anyway!!!
I think that I'm guilty of doing that in Reply 9, in retrospect.
In thinking about this matter, I find that the actions of the Turkish Parliament in this narrow respect really don't necessarily reflect on the suitability of Turkey to join the EU. Thus, I now withdraw the following comment:
Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 9): No wonder folks are wondering about whether Turkey should be in the EU.
Klaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21346 posts, RR: 54 Reply 12, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 3159 times:
Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 9): If politicians can't agree about history, how in blazes can they agree about a common future? The future is, after all, nothing more than history with a bit of patience.
Only for the audience - for its protagonists it's quite a bit more demanding...!
Quoting TurkishWings (Reply 10): Yet another way of bashing Turkey and making it more difficult for us to enter the EU.
The existing evidence - including official formerly secret documents from the german imperial foreign office and many eyewitness reports - is a bit too diverse and a bit too substantial to just keep denying that it ever happened.
The problem is not so much the long bygone massacres themselves, the problem is the inability to openly deal with it on the part of a presumably modern democratic nation.
Klaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21346 posts, RR: 54 Reply 19, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 3062 times:
Quoting TNNH (Reply 15): Ironic that the USA, the country that has proteced and advanced world Jewry far more than any other nation does not have similar legislation.
They haven't had a genocide based in large part on the extreme abuse of the freedom of speech... Both positions are understandable, even though I'm deeply suspicious of hateful propaganda and its "harmlessness"...
Obviously.... Lots of Armenians as well as Turks were killed during small battles while the Armenians were being relocated as they kept betraying us and causing zillions of problems mainly in the Eastern/South Eastern regions of Turkey.
At the time of the so called "genocide", many countries were declaring their independence from the Ottoman Empire (esp. in the Balkans). Armenians, hoping they would also have independence, played dirty tricks on Turks and changed sides during wars especially against the Russians hoping they would help them. So they provoked each other and started causing problems and killing Turks. When the government decided, the problems would get out of control, they decided to relocate the Armenians. Many died fighting along the way (both sides). There were no mass murders or such by the government at the time.
Of course, there are many different versions of the stories but this is briefly what I learnt from the research I made.
What makes me angry, in particular, is France's behaviour in this case. What is it to THEM if two countries are having problems with each other. You might try to help or support one side but trying to pass a vote in the parliament is crossing the line.
But as usual, if it is X vs. Turkey or Y vs. Turkey, its always X and Y who is right and Turkey who is wrong.
Anyway, I am still celebrating our victory against Moldova (football). We just beat them 5-0 Allright, not a very important game but its always nice to see such results
Yeah, well, that is where the evidence says something entirely different.
Unfortunately for the deniers, the german Kaiserreich at that time had very intimate knowledge about the systematic anti-armenian policies, including massacres and forcible islamization.
Germany even collaborated with the perpetrators in order to stabilize their turkish allies.
And many official records of the german government of the era still exist. They corroborate the eyewitness accounts to a disturbing degree, including their own complicity and inaction in the face of the ongoing atrocities.
Those documents had not been intended for publication back then and they did not serve any secondary purpose other than internal information so there is hardly any reason to believe that the german officials had simply made it all up.
Turkey has a lot more to lose by trying to keep a lid on this (while everybody knows it anyway) rather than demonstrating a mature approach to the darker corners of their history.
OzGlobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2683 posts, RR: 4 Reply 22, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3017 times:
Quoting DL021 (Reply 13): THe French are making noise because they don't want the Turks in the EU.
Wrong.....! Chirac has controversally supported their entry. Check your facts.
Quoting Klaus (Reply 8): I'm not too sure about the size of the armenian minority in France...
It's substantial (largestest diaspora?). Also, there's been a series of voices denying the Armenian genocide of late, including in France. Many of the ethnic Armenians in France lost relatives in the event.
Do you condemn Germany's law re: holocaust? Be consistent at least.
Try denying the holocaut in the US and see how far you get before you're deported or run out of town. What's the difference? Not the Jews this time?
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
People who have done more research than you have come to the exact opposite conclusion and this is widely accepted amongst historians. Why continue to deny it? It's not as though the Young Turks who were in political control of the Ottoman Empire during those years have anything to do with the modern Turkey.
OzGlobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2683 posts, RR: 4 Reply 24, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 2960 times:
France has the largest Armenian expat community. The genocide happened. Anyone with any interest and an ounce of intellectual integrity knows it. Whilst a law with a jail term is over the top, it is not more outrageous than the tacit appeasement of Turkey currently shown by the indifferent.
You may not be aware a US senator tried to pass a motion recognizing the genocide several years ago, but was blocked by, of all people, Israel aligned interests who felt it would detract from the unique status of the holocaust. For heaven's sake, the mass graves are there, you can see the tens of thousands of skelotons. Time to call a spade a spade and so we can move on.
(Btw, Japan needs to acknowledge all its war crimes if it is ever to move forward in integrity too. Didn't do Germany any harm. On the contrary, they are stronger for it).
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
25 TWFirst: I've never understood why Turkey would be against this... especially now. Turkey has tried to repress Kurdish culture for so long... so why not just
26 Wing: Its not a victory its a massacre! And don't be surprised to see if French parliement will vote this to be as Turkish genocide against Moldova If it h
27 L410Turbolet: Then why does Turkish government always gets so hysterical when this topic comes into discussion. What is "Turkishness"? Some sacred cows, unchalleng