Sponsor Message:
Non Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Turkey, France And Denial Of Denial  
User currently offlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5684 posts, RR: 19
Posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 3682 times:

Came across this interesting piece of news:

"French MPs are due to discuss the bill - which would make it a crime to deny that Turkey perpetrated a genocide against Armenians."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6033713.stm

The Turkish government fiercely denies a genocide, saying that hundreds of thousands of Turks and Armenians died in a civil war.

Under Turkish law, it is illegal to accuse the state of genocide. Scores of Turkish writers and intellectuals who have debated the massacres publicly have faced prosecution under article 301 of the penal code, outlawing insults to "Turkishness".


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...xml=/news/2006/10/10/wfrance10.xml

OK, we all know that in Turkey it is illegal to discuss Armenian genocide. French MPs probably though that the best they could do is to drop down to their level adopt equally stupid measure which says that it is criminal act to deny that Armenian genocide indeed happened.

Meanwhile the BS, continues....

In retaliation, the Turkish parliament's justice committee will on Wednesday discuss a draft plan to imprison people who deny that France committed genocide during its colonial rule over Algeria.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...xml=/news/2006/10/10/wfrance10.xml

247 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 3680 times:

Quoting L410Turbolet (Thread starter):
"French MPs are due to discuss the bill - which would make it a crime to deny that Turkey perpetrated a genocide against Armenians."


Quoting L410Turbolet (Thread starter):
In retaliation, the Turkish parliament's justice committee will on Wednesday discuss a draft plan to imprison people who deny that France committed genocide during its colonial rule over Algeria.

It's sure "nice" to know that valuable taxpayer money is going toward the legislative equivalent of an argument over whose d*ck is larger.

Honestly, is this parliamentary debate, or is it close to naptime at preschool? Sometimes, it's very hard to tell the difference.

[Edited 2006-10-10 12:46:37]

User currently offlineSolnabo From Sweden, joined Jan 2008, 851 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 3659 times:

It´s forbidden to speak kurdish in Turkey....so I´ve heard! True?

Micke//  Confused



Airbus SAS - Love them both
User currently offlineTedTAce From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3644 times:

Thank Gawd for the USA  Smile Crappy political ads and all.

User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3640 times:

Kinda puts everything in perspective for the people who complain about freedom of speech over here doesn't it?  spin 

User currently offlinePyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 3948 posts, RR: 28
Reply 5, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3626 times:

Quoting L410Turbolet (Thread starter):
French MPs probably though that the best they could do is to drop down to their level adopt equally stupid measure which says that it is criminal act to deny that Armenian genocide indeed happened.

Isn't it a crime to deny the holocaust in Germany?



Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21418 posts, RR: 54
Reply 6, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 3588 times:

Quoting Solnabo (Reply 2):
It´s forbidden to speak kurdish in Turkey....so I´ve heard! True?

It was until relatively recently. The kurdish culture was completely suppressed for a long time, but that only emboldened the more radical kurds.

With the kurds in Iraq being on the verge of official secession, Turkey has intense fears of something similar happening to them as well (which might lead to a post-turkish/iraqi/iranian Kurdistan and a corresponding loss of territory for all three states).

But since repression didn't work (and its total incompatibility with Turkey's EU aspirations), the anti-kurdish policies have been retracted to a certain degree in recent years.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 5):
Isn't it a crime to deny the holocaust in Germany?

Indeed. Although I have my doubts if it makes sense to ban the denial of other countries' genocides...

The turkish denial of the anti-armenian massacres is understandable to a point, but it would be the first infected wound that got better by denying its existence...!  mischievous 


User currently offlinePyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 3948 posts, RR: 28
Reply 7, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 3567 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 6):
Indeed. Although I have my doubts if it makes sense to ban the denial of other countries' genocides...

I am not sure but I believe denying the holocaust is a crime in some other countries as well... can't tell you which ones, though.



Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21418 posts, RR: 54
Reply 8, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3533 times:

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 7):
I am not sure but I believe denying the holocaust is a crime in some other countries as well... can't tell you which ones, though.

I can still sort of see the point as long as one's own country had suffered under the genocide, which covers most of Europe in case of the Holocaust; But I'm not too sure about the size of the armenian minority in France...


User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 3512 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 8):
I can still sort of see the point as long as one's own country had suffered under the genocide, which covers most of Europe in case of the Holocaust; But I'm not too sure about the size of the armenian minority in France...

If politicians can't agree about history, how in blazes can they agree about a common future? The future is, after all, nothing more than history with a bit of patience.

No wonder folks are wondering about whether Turkey should be in the EU.


User currently offlineTurkishWings From United States of America, joined May 2006, 1441 posts, RR: 8
Reply 10, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 3506 times:

Yet another way of bashing Turkey and making it more difficult for us to enter the EU. Frankly, I am not sure if the EU deserves our membership anyway!!!


Coffee - Tea or Me?
User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 3502 times:

Quoting TurkishWings (Reply 10):
Yet another way of bashing Turkey and making it more difficult for us to enter the EU. Frankly, I am not sure if the EU deserves our membership anyway!!!

I think that I'm guilty of doing that in Reply 9, in retrospect.

In thinking about this matter, I find that the actions of the Turkish Parliament in this narrow respect really don't necessarily reflect on the suitability of Turkey to join the EU. Thus, I now withdraw the following comment:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 9):
No wonder folks are wondering about whether Turkey should be in the EU.

(Withdrawn.)


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21418 posts, RR: 54
Reply 12, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3480 times:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 9):
If politicians can't agree about history, how in blazes can they agree about a common future? The future is, after all, nothing more than history with a bit of patience.

Only for the audience - for its protagonists it's quite a bit more demanding...!

Quoting TurkishWings (Reply 10):
Yet another way of bashing Turkey and making it more difficult for us to enter the EU.

The existing evidence - including official formerly secret documents from the german imperial foreign office and many eyewitness reports - is a bit too diverse and a bit too substantial to just keep denying that it ever happened.

The problem is not so much the long bygone massacres themselves, the problem is the inability to openly deal with it on the part of a presumably modern democratic nation.


User currently offlineDL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11446 posts, RR: 76
Reply 13, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 3462 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

THe French are making noise because they don't want the Turks in the EU.

The Turks are grumbling because they'd rather forget the massacres of Christian Armenians.

The Kurds simply want to run the territory they live in without Turkish influence and the Turks can't allow it because of water.

So....there we are. Geo/EconPolitik rules.



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently onlineAsturias From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 2138 posts, RR: 16
Reply 14, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 3455 times:

Quoting TurkishWings (Reply 10):
Yet another way of bashing Turkey and making it more difficult for us to enter the EU. Frankly, I am not sure if the EU deserves our membership anyway!!!

Bah, this is just a drop in the water compared to the vast ocean of reasons to keep Turkey forever out of the EU.

cheers

Asturias



Tonight we fly
User currently offlineTNNH From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 219 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 3450 times:

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 5):
Isn't it a crime to deny the holocaust in Germany?

Ironic that the USA, the country that has proteced and advanced world Jewry far more than any other nation does not have similar legislation.

TNNH


User currently offlineAirxLiban From Lebanon, joined Oct 2003, 4507 posts, RR: 53
Reply 16, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 3443 times:

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 7):
Quoting Klaus (Reply 6):
Indeed. Although I have my doubts if it makes sense to ban the denial of other countries' genocides...

I am not sure but I believe denying the holocaust is a crime in some other countries as well... can't tell you which ones, though.

Iran, possibly?

Quoting TurkishWings (Reply 10):
Yet another way of bashing Turkey and making it more difficult for us to enter the EU. Frankly, I am not sure if the EU deserves our membership anyway!!!

Do you deny the Armenian genocide as well?



PARIS, FRANCE...THE BEIRUT OF EUROPE.
User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 3425 times:

Quoting TNNH (Reply 15):
Ironic that the USA, the country that has proteced and advanced world Jewry far more than any other nation does not have similar legislation.

TNNH

Yeah, that darned pesky constimatution thangie.


User currently offlineDL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11446 posts, RR: 76
Reply 18, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3410 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting TNNH (Reply 15):
Ironic that the USA, the country that has proteced and advanced world Jewry far more than any other nation does not have similar legislation.

yeah...well there is still the concept of freedom of speech here, no matter what the thought police would like.



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21418 posts, RR: 54
Reply 19, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3383 times:

Quoting TNNH (Reply 15):
Ironic that the USA, the country that has proteced and advanced world Jewry far more than any other nation does not have similar legislation.

They haven't had a genocide based in large part on the extreme abuse of the freedom of speech... Both positions are understandable, even though I'm deeply suspicious of hateful propaganda and its "harmlessness"...

Quoting AirxLiban (Reply 16):
Iran, possibly?

Yeah, and Ahmadinejad is secretly a jew...!  crazy 

Quoting DL021 (Reply 18):
yeah...well there is still the concept of freedom of speech here, no matter what the thought police would like.

You can think and even say whatever you want in Germany - you just can't spread public propaganda of every imaginable kind.


User currently offlineTurkishWings From United States of America, joined May 2006, 1441 posts, RR: 8
Reply 20, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 3367 times:

Quoting AirxLiban (Reply 16):
Do you deny the Armenian genocide as well?

Obviously.... Lots of Armenians as well as Turks were killed during small battles while the Armenians were being relocated as they kept betraying us and causing zillions of problems mainly in the Eastern/South Eastern regions of Turkey.

At the time of the so called "genocide", many countries were declaring their independence from the Ottoman Empire (esp. in the Balkans). Armenians, hoping they would also have independence, played dirty tricks on Turks and changed sides during wars especially against the Russians hoping they would help them. So they provoked each other and started causing problems and killing Turks. When the government decided, the problems would get out of control, they decided to relocate the Armenians. Many died fighting along the way (both sides). There were no mass murders or such by the government at the time.

Of course, there are many different versions of the stories but this is briefly what I learnt from the research I made.

What makes me angry, in particular, is France's behaviour in this case. What is it to THEM if two countries are having problems with each other. You might try to help or support one side but trying to pass a vote in the parliament is crossing the line.

But as usual, if it is X vs. Turkey or Y vs. Turkey, its always X and Y who is right and Turkey who is wrong.

Anyway, I am still celebrating our victory against Moldova (football). We just beat them 5-0  Smile Allright, not a very important game but its always nice to see such results  Big grin



Coffee - Tea or Me?
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21418 posts, RR: 54
Reply 21, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 3363 times:

Quoting TurkishWings (Reply 20):
There were no mass murders or such by the government at the time.

Yeah, well, that is where the evidence says something entirely different.

Unfortunately for the deniers, the german Kaiserreich at that time had very intimate knowledge about the systematic anti-armenian policies, including massacres and forcible islamization.

Germany even collaborated with the perpetrators in order to stabilize their turkish allies.

And many official records of the german government of the era still exist. They corroborate the eyewitness accounts to a disturbing degree, including their own complicity and inaction in the face of the ongoing atrocities.

Those documents had not been intended for publication back then and they did not serve any secondary purpose other than internal information so there is hardly any reason to believe that the german officials had simply made it all up.

Turkey has a lot more to lose by trying to keep a lid on this (while everybody knows it anyway) rather than demonstrating a mature approach to the darker corners of their history.

[Edited 2006-10-11 23:22:47]

User currently offlineOzGlobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2711 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3338 times:

Quoting DL021 (Reply 13):
THe French are making noise because they don't want the Turks in the EU.

Wrong.....! Chirac has controversally supported their entry. Check your facts.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 8):
I'm not too sure about the size of the armenian minority in France...

It's substantial (largestest diaspora?). Also, there's been a series of voices denying the Armenian genocide of late, including in France. Many of the ethnic Armenians in France lost relatives in the event.

Do you condemn Germany's law re: holocaust? Be consistent at least.

Try denying the holocaut in the US and see how far you get before you're deported or run out of town. What's the difference? Not the Jews this time?



When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
User currently offlineAirxLiban From Lebanon, joined Oct 2003, 4507 posts, RR: 53
Reply 23, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3327 times:

Quoting TurkishWings (Reply 20):

People who have done more research than you have come to the exact opposite conclusion and this is widely accepted amongst historians. Why continue to deny it? It's not as though the Young Turks who were in political control of the Ottoman Empire during those years have anything to do with the modern Turkey.



PARIS, FRANCE...THE BEIRUT OF EUROPE.
User currently offlineOzGlobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2711 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 3281 times:

France has the largest Armenian expat community. The genocide happened. Anyone with any interest and an ounce of intellectual integrity knows it. Whilst a law with a jail term is over the top, it is not more outrageous than the tacit appeasement of Turkey currently shown by the indifferent.

You may not be aware a US senator tried to pass a motion recognizing the genocide several years ago, but was blocked by, of all people, Israel aligned interests who felt it would detract from the unique status of the holocaust. For heaven's sake, the mass graves are there, you can see the tens of thousands of skelotons. Time to call a spade a spade and so we can move on.

(Btw, Japan needs to acknowledge all its war crimes if it is ever to move forward in integrity too. Didn't do Germany any harm. On the contrary, they are stronger for it).



When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
25 TWFirst : I've never understood why Turkey would be against this... especially now. Turkey has tried to repress Kurdish culture for so long... so why not just
26 Post contains links and images Wing : Its not a victory its a massacre! And don't be surprised to see if French parliement will vote this to be as Turkish genocide against Moldova If it h
27 Post contains images L410Turbolet : Then why does Turkish government always gets so hysterical when this topic comes into discussion. What is "Turkishness"? Some sacred cows, unchalleng
28 Post contains images 7474ever : Totally agreed.
29 7474ever : Well, 1.500.000 million is surely "a lot"...
30 Wing : It pretty much explains itself,ofcourse nobody likes to be accused for something they never did. Nobody likes to be insulted in own country,I am sure
31 Post contains images Wing : Interestingly this number increases in every election term in France.I wonder if you have any clue that total number of Armenians living at that time
32 TurkishWings : Aa Armenian friend of mine said the toll was "3.000.000" Turkey's population in 1915 was roughly 10.000.000. You suggest that more than 1/6 of the po
33 7474ever : I'm not an expert on this issue, but I understand this number is pretty much correct. On the other hand, where would you know from ? You obviously do
34 TurkishWings : There is a BIG chance that I know the issue better than you do!! Yes, we study population issues at school... Plus, its common sense. Show me one cou
35 7474ever : You have to explain this one...
36 TurkishWings : Lets say Israel has a population of 10.000.000 and 2.500.000 of this is ONLY Swiss. This is what I mean by a "single nation".
37 7474ever : Ah, I see... Israel has a popaltion of 7 million, a million out of it is arab. How about that ?
38 OzGlobal : French people are opposed; Chirac, as I said, controversially, has supported it. Probably true, but I'm not speaking as a Frenchman and the topic is
39 AirxLiban : Because the Ottoman Empire is the predecessor of modern day Turkey and it is part of your history. And you should recognise it because it is true. At
40 7474ever : So share us what we don't know. What do you study about that ?
41 BHXFAOTIPYYC : The conclusion that I have come to is that history is in the eye of the beholder. That and "denial" isn't just a river in Egypt.
42 TurkishWings : I do not wanna go there. It's a whole discussion in itself.
43 L410Turbolet : Who if not Turks themselves should be morally entitled to be critical and to challenge their own country's history? Why is it automatically "insult"?
44 TurkishWings : What does France have to do with a problem between Armenia and Turkey? Oh sorry. I forgot... They need the votes.. Sorry, my bad... Listen, Turkey is
45 7474ever : You don't get it. I'm explaining, that unlike you said, a single minority can make up a single minority, nothing more. Im still waiting for this one.
46 TurkishWings : I do agree with you that its a part of our history yet the "Republic of Turkey" was founded on October 29, 1923. This is today's Turkey. Not 1915.
47 AirxLiban : Stop playing the fool and read what I wrote. I asked you what guaranteeing that Armenian doesn't ask for land from Turkey has to do with accepting th
48 TurkishWings : No, I do understand very well what you mean. The case of Israel and Arabs is quite an exception as the country was put there fairly recently. Remembe
49 L410Turbolet : Post-WW1 Czechoslovakia... "In 1921, the population of Czechoslovakia comprised 6.6 million Czechs, 3.2 million Germans*, 2 million Slovaks*, 0.7 mil
50 Post contains images 7474ever : They were czechs, slovaks, germans, hungarians, ruthenians or ukranians ?
51 BHXFAOTIPYYC : That's a good point. How come "Jews" are counted as a nationality?
52 7474ever : Some of my family came from slovakia. They were hungarian speakers, as I am
53 Post contains links and images L410Turbolet : Good question, ask wikipedia. Maybe you'll find some answers here: http://www.porges.net/JewishHistoryOfCzechRepub.html "The 354,342 Jews by religion
54 7474ever : This remindes me of a joke my father loves. "During WWII, the germans inspecting some prisonners in the occupied Belgium. During the ispection they s
55 Semsem : Please leave Israel out of this and what the USA decided has nothing to do with Israel. We still remember that it was the Turks who invited the Jews f
56 7474ever : True. But now the turkish president say "it was the biggest mistake we ever did." - taken fromthe turkish TV. I just spent the whole summer in Turkey
57 TurkishWings : You have some nerves man.. Turks have always been one of the best friends of Jews. Jewish people were always and are still welcome in our country. Wh
58 ME AVN FAN : - TWO points have to be seen : A) it happened in 1915/16, while the Turkish Republic got est'd in 1922 B) the Turkish Republic is NOT a successor of
59 7474ever : No there isn't. As I told you, I just spent a few months in Turkey, including Istanbul, Antalya, Dalaman, talked to a lot of people. Turkey has been
60 Sebolino : Actually, there's a big chance that you aren't objective at all, and probably manipulated. History is what it is: history. And you can do what you wa
61 Post contains images 7474ever :
62 TurkishWings : I really really don't know what's changing. Please enlighten me.
63 ME AVN FAN : Isn't there still a kind of military alliance between Turkey and Israel ? - - in the "official" version of history, no problem with Armenians ever ex
64 7474ever : The jewish community in Turkey counts about 20.000 people. In the past few years, more and more of them leaving Turkey because of the increasing hate
65 TurkishWings : Yes, it never existed and there is proof showing so. Listen, history can be written in many ways. There is proof that says it happened, there is proo
66 7474ever : Turkey is a country with TREMENDOUS potencial.
67 L410Turbolet : What you state seems to me like even further reasons why this issue should not be such a hot potatoe or taboo for the present Turkish government, peo
68 Sebolino : This is wrong. The Turkish governement has admitted "massacres", but refuses to talk about genocide. It's just a matter of words. The "problem" is to
69 ME AVN FAN : This is what I urge every Turk I meet to do. But the echo is rather frustrating. Some even react rough to that suggestion. The national pride of the
70 Wing : Himself is the biggest mistake that this country has ever made unfortunately.I recomend you that not be take all Turkey to be thinking the same way a
71 Post contains images Emrecan : 7474ever: There is a big reality in the world. Noone likes the jews and the jews don't like others. So nothing to say more
72 ME AVN FAN : why not. But that defacto-alliance of Turkey with Israel somewhat exceeds the "to get along well" thing quite heavily. Has Israel officially recogniz
73 Wing : I strongly think that it will not be over if Turkey says "We accept your genocide and we are sorry about it" The Armenian state has official policies
74 ME AVN FAN : + - These TWO points are NOT made public sufficiently in the West. well, that you talk about Kurdish Terror is encouraging. The father of my schoolfr
75 Semsem : 747ever Erdogan is certainly no friend. He said that we treat the Palestinians exactly like the Spanish treated us in the Spanish Inquisition. That wa
76 Pilotaydin : why are the turks on here trying to defend turkey, we all know the EU comes up with excuses whenever they can to make us go away... i dont need to Arm
77 AirxLiban : Instead of playing the victim why don't you offer your opinion on what happened to the Armenians in the period we are talking about and what the resu
78 Post contains images TurkishWings : I agree with you now... I have been in favour of joining the EU until recently but you know what we do not belong to a place we are not truly wanted.
79 Post contains images Emrecan : AirxLiban: You can come and speak with the Armenians living in Turkey at the moment. It is very clear that stupid French Politicians are the toys of A
80 AirxLiban : Emrecan, I don't understand what you are trying to say. What do you want me to talk to the Armenians living in Turkey about? Sorry - what are you smo
81 Emrecan : AirxLiban: If there has been Armenian genocide in Turkey, at the moment there wouldn`t be any Armenian living in Turkey. How you didn`t understand wha
82 Asturias : There was freedom of speech during the Third Reich? Intreresting historical revisionism. That was an unfortunate political decision, but Spain and Po
83 Wing : I am not patronising you,sorry if you feel that way,I was referring to your question if he was denying the genoside-which is now illegal in France-So
84 ME AVN FAN : My suggestion to Turkey would be to ask the Swiss government (Mr Blocher happens to be Minister of Justice) for documents about the Bilateral Treatie
85 7474ever : Extremly stupid comment. Inspite of the Haolocaust there are more than 50.000 jews live Germany in prosperity.
86 Post contains images Wing : 7474ever, You are making a huge mistake of comparing jewish holacaust with Armenian issues.If you don't have compleate imformation about this subject(
87 ME AVN FAN : But there were practically NO, almost ZERO, Jews living in Germany in 1945 . Policy of the government of the "German Empire" nr 3 has been to eradica
88 7474ever : I don't think you get my point. Jews still live in Germany, indians still live in north- and south-america, armenians still live in turkey, hutu stil
89 7474ever : My knowledge about this issue is quiet limited, but to be honest with you I really don't think that your's is better. Do you study about this issue i
90 ME AVN FAN : Possibly NOT. But MY point was and IS that you canNOT compare the program of Nazi-Germany which was to eradicate Jews with some government acknowledg
91 7474ever : Show me sentence I said that. It's completely different. Bue it's STILL a genocide.
92 ME AVN FAN : OK, but WHAT is a GENOCIDE ? 100 people, 10'000 people, 1 mio people, some millions, all people of a particular group ?
93 7474ever : For those of you that think I compared to the Holocaust to the armenian issue, show me the sentence I said that. I say again, they're different. If k
94 Post contains links and images Wing : You actually are answering the question,yes they are still living in Turkey since they have not been to a systematic murder,none were taken to camps
95 7474ever : No, we're not. Read all my posts before you write something. I DIDN'T COMPARE THE HOLOCAUST TO THE ARMENINAS. ALL I SAID WAS THAT BOTH ARE GENOCIDES.
96 7474ever : Sorry, I have no idea what the macedonian airlines thing is...
97 Wing : So in your point of view ,it will not be wrong to say that Armenians made genocide to Turks in 1915 since they have killed same amount of Turkish vill
98 7474ever : Right. If they killed 1.5 million turks as well, then it's a genocide as well. What do you learn in Turkey ? How many turks and armenians were killed
99 Post contains images Pilotaydin : I am not an Ottoman, I am a Turkish citizen, it's unfortunate that war and death were upon these lands that i now live in...the truth is, Ataturk and
100 AirxLiban : I realise that completely. Modern Turkey has no political or economic connection with the Ottomans, however the Ottoman Empire was nonetheless the pr
101 Asturias : Because Turkey is illegally occupying the land that belongs to Cyprus. Of course. Russia will never join the EU. Nobody is talking about a Russian EU
102 Pilotaydin : Actually, that land was OURS, open up the text books, the British are the ones that screwed us out of it, we came back to get what we owned in the fi
103 Semsem : Asturias it is astonishing how Spain distorts what happened during the Inquisition. One third of the Jews were murdered, one third were forced to conv
104 Emrecan : Astruias: You don't know anything about Turkey. It is very clear. So keep your stupid ideas with yourself.
105 Semsem : France killed 1 million Algerians. Conveniently not discussed.
106 7474ever : In no particular order, here are the rules: Please respect each other and choose your words wisely. Each user has their own point of view, and these
107 Emrecan : 7474ever: What is your answer to Semsem? (Reply 105)
108 7474ever : What question do you mean ?
109 Post contains links Sebolino : They were taken to camps. Don't hide behind your finger. It was a geniocide. There are jews in Germany, France, Austria ... A will to eradicate a pop
110 Sebolino : Conveniently ? I don't see what it would mean while speaking about the Armenian genocide. But if you want to start a discussion about the Algerian wa
111 Rolfen : Why dont your recognise this damn genocide and apologise for it and get over with it. Everyone know what happened it's not like millions of armenians
112 Post contains images Emrecan : Sebolino: "When you kill it is war, when we kill it is genocide" Very good point of view
113 Sebolino : First, I didn't kill anybody. Second, if you don't understand the difference between a war and a genocide, it's up to you, I don't care. I said earli
114 ME AVN FAN : A) the flag was introduced in 1960, with a Greek-Cypriot president and a Turkish-Cypriot vice-president B) Northern Cyprus was secured by Turkish tro
115 AndesSMF : Loosely defined, genocide is a systemic attempt to eliminate a group. Which means that the deaths of Jews in WWII was genocide, as the intention was
116 ME AVN FAN : - Here a short compilation of the History of independent Cyprus : - In 1960 the Treaty of Zurich was signed to give independence to Cyprus whilst pro
117 ME AVN FAN : As it increasingly looks necessary to provide the full text of the foundation-treaty of the Republic of Cyprus, here it is : -------------------------
118 Post contains links L410Turbolet : URL Hyperlinking You do not need to use any code at all to post a link. Any links included in a post (text starting with http:// or www.) will automa
119 ME AVN FAN : any source for that ? I think that Russia, in a far longer term of course, WILL join the EU. Russia already is member of the European Council and of
120 Wing : Yes Mr Sebolino killed everybody in Algeria!Very well and what else can be said to an understanding like this. I don't think it your understanding is
121 Post contains images Sebolino : I'm tired of repeating my posts over and over agin. Make a search in the thread. You're welcome.
122 Post contains links and images Emrecan : These are the pics of Turks killed by Armenians (for you Sebolino)
123 Sebolino : OK, what is your message ? Is it: There was no Armenian genocide because Turks can die too ? Or is it: Armenians and Turks were obviously enemies, wi
124 Post contains links Emrecan : http://bilgiteknoloji.net/mezalim/ The link that is showing how many Turks were killed by Armenians between 1910 - 1922 . (Around 523,000 people) Wait
125 Emrecan : Sebolino: If you still didn't get the message, nothing to say to you. You are blind.
126 JJJ : To answer your question: yes, they do. They're conveniently put next to other systematic attacks on jews in the rest of Europe at that time, but they
127 Sebolino : You won't wait long. You're so defensive, that you still don't get the point of the thread. Yes, people have died in every country in the world, in w
128 Emrecan : Sebolino: What are you talking about? They killed 550,000 of Turks and you are telling that Turks made genocide. Unfortunately Turks didn't make genoc
129 Sebolino : Great, we're progressing.
130 Emrecan : Sebolino: I am still waiting for your answer about 550,000 of death Turks killed by Armenians. Explain me, how they could have killed this much of peo
131 TurkishWings : Of course you understand the sentence as you want to. He says that Armenians deserved to be relocated due to what they had been doing. Ottomans, at t
132 JJJ : Forced displacement of people is a method of ethnic cleansing. Milosevic used a very similar rethoric in the 90s.
133 Asturias : Yes, we've gone through this before ME AVN FAN. Do you want another turn? There is no country in the world except the invaders (Turkey) that acknowle
134 ME AVN FAN : As I stated I do NOT have a source for the contrary either. What I want(ed) to say is that long term predictions are incredibly risky, but to say it
135 Post contains links ME AVN FAN : the following BBC report does NOT contradict your statement really, but sounds very very different from what you wanted to show : -- -- What is the U
136 JJJ : That's a LONG term you're talking about now. Anything can happen in a 50+ years timespan, it may well be that the EU is long gone.
137 Emrecan : Asturias: Which truth r u talking about? Visit the site I mentioned before. I am still waiting your comments. How about the bombers of Madrid? They we
138 ME AVN FAN : of course. BUT you have to see that developments of that kind are a matter of decades and not of months. The U.K. wanted to join the EEC very early b
139 JJJ : That was a terrorist cell with a clearly stated aim (just like they bombed the hell out of Casablanca earlier). Comparing a terrorist attack on civil
140 Post contains links and images Asturias : Well well well, seems I struck a nerve by posting some truth. Not surprised. Turkey never owned Cyprus in 'the first place' and no country - NO COUNTR
141 AirxLiban : I have changed your '-'s to numbers so that I can refer to them more easily: 1. According to you, 500 some odd thousand. 2. No, that large numbers of
142 Asturias : I have serious doubts about Russia ever splitting up their profitable federation to join an unwilling EU.. at least in our lifetimes. Other than that
143 ME AVN FAN : - let's see : > the most important metropolis of Turkey and some 20% of its population are even geographically on the European side > size is no prob
144 JJJ : That's exactly what I'm saying. Trying to predict history over a, say, 25 year period is futile. Saying "Russia will eventually join the EU" is prett
145 ME AVN FAN : While the first one makes sense, the colonisation of the moon is a doubtful endeavour. And only the entry of Russia will make the E.U. "complete" . A
146 Asturias : That is YOUR opinion and many many DO see cultural incompatibilities because they have FIRST HAND experience with Turks as IMMIGRANTS in Europe. You
147 ME AVN FAN : I know many Turkish immigrants in Switzerland, and had them both as colleagues and as "subordinates" but also simply as friends. No, not at all. I me
148 Asturias : I know many Turkish immigrants as well. I have lived in many countries in Europe and know people from all over the world who have made their home in
149 ME AVN FAN : Sorry, apparently a misunderstanding on my side. But then, why should the Russian Federation break up in order to join the E.U. ? Imagine Khabarovsk
150 AerospaceFan : I think that the entry of Russia would make a big difference to the EU's bureaucratic culture. I doubt that Russia would stand for a great deal of guf
151 ME AVN FAN : Not really. Russia has 150 mio people, Germany 83 mio and France 60 mio. So that France and Germany together have almost as many people. And the Fren
152 Emrecan : I am still asking... How Armenians have killed 550,000 Turkish people , if there has been a genocide? Where are your answers? !!!
153 Travelin man : Errr.... I've read through (most) of the responses on this thread, but I still don't understand what France has to do with the Turkey-Armenia genocide
154 Emrecan : Travelin man: There will be elections in France, and the politicians are trying to get the Armenian votes. They don't really care about Armenians, thi
155 JJJ : Just like Canada is an important part of America but you won't see them joining the United States of America. Europe in a geographical sense and the
156 ME AVN FAN : The E.U. is NOT a country, but the USA is a country. Canada however is member of NAFTA, which is the North American equivalent of the EU.
157 Emrecan : JJJ: Answer me, I am asking ver simple question ! If there was something done to Armenians as you mentioned, how they could have killed 550,000 Turkis
158 JJJ : That half a million Turks comprises the whole Turk civilian casualties during WWI. Are you sure all of them were 'killed by Armenians'? Admit it and
159 JJJ : It was just a not very fortunate example. It was better explained on the paragraph you snipped.
160 ME AVN FAN : As far as I understand it, the Turkish claim is that 500'000 Turks were killed BY ARMENIAN militants. The total death-toll of the Turks in WW-I presu
161 TurkishWings : He can not and will not answer the question Emre. He, as well as most of other people on this forum, are only informed about the Armenian side of the
162 Post contains links Emrecan : JJJ: Go to the link I gave before.. Or I write here again http://bilgiteknoloji.net/mezalim/ click on it and see the numbers, dates and places where t
163 ME AVN FAN : here the Wikipedia statistics about WW-I - Central Powers/MilitaryDeaths/CivilianDeaths/Total Deaths/Wounded Austria-Hungary-/--1,200,000/--300,000-/-
164 TurkishWings : You really talk as if you have very strong sources about the issue. And you are so sure with your claims. So the Turks died during the war and Armeni
165 Post contains links ME AVN FAN : Here some quite detailed information about the matter : - ............................................................................................
166 JJJ : That's a total for the Ottoman empire (that is, Armenians are included there) so 1,5 mio armenians + half a mio Turks give you the magic numbers. To
167 Emrecan : JJJ: Don't try to escape from my question... Answer me ! If there was an Armenian genocide by Turks, how the Armenians could have killed 550,000 Turki
168 JJJ : Too bad the site is only in Turkish. I'd expect an Armenian site inflating numbers, too. Anyway, it's not like the Armenian massacres started on 1915
169 Emrecan : JJJ: Numbers doesn't have a language... You still didn't give me the answer of my question. I am waiting. Be a man and explain how they could have kil
170 TurkishWings : Wow. You are just unbelievable. When I read this sentence, I literally laughed. There was a HUGE war for 4 years and only 500.000 Turks died but we m
171 JJJ : But numbers are meaningless if one doesn't know how they've been collected. That's the reason every decent history book says things like 'historian e
172 Emrecan : JJJ: How do you know Armenians collected the numbers? what is their method? You are a really funny man. You cannot answer me. I prooved all of you abo
173 JJJ : If you want to play down a 1,5 mio massacre I can understand why half a million civilian deaths seem you so few. And the answer is simple, when you p
174 JJJ : Armenian numbers come from FOREIGN observers on the field at the time: French, German and American mostly. ...and try to keep this discussion civil,
175 ME AVN FAN : there were Germans inside the Ottoman Empire as allies, but British and French only got into the relevant areas AFTER 1917. And no US-troops were inv
176 Post contains images Emrecan : JJJ: Still you cannot answer me.. I am tired of asking you the same question. If you don't believe the numbers, then don't make any comment. Everythin
177 JJJ : The US consulate in Istanbul as well as different protestant missions in the area started sending reports from the very beginning in 1915, it was the
178 JJJ : I'm talking mostly about Germans. Your ALLIES at that time, in case you conveniently choose to forget.
179 Emrecan : JJJ: Give the answer!!! How Armenians could have killed 550,000 people? Give the answer of this. Don't say anything else. Explain this. If you can't e
180 Asturias : Exactly! I find it quite amazing that this simple concept doesn't filter through the minds of some people! No further explaination is necessary on wh
181 Post contains images Asturias : What the heck are you talking about? You Turks committed a genocide on Armenians which is inexcusable by itself, but truly pathetic when you refuse t
182 Emrecan : Austrias: It is clear that you are not reading all the threads and writing here. First of all go to the link I mentioned before. Then I am waiting for
183 Asturias : Turks committed genocide on the Armenian people. It is utterly unjustifiable and even attempting to justify it discludes you from any serious discuss
184 Post contains images Emrecan : Asturias: You are very funny.. You cannot answer my question. Nothing to say to you more. Go to "Plaza de Toros", fight with the bulls
185 ME AVN FAN : And while staying in Istanbul of course had the full picture of local events 100s of kms east and southeast ? Hardly. They simply took over reports f
186 TurkishWings : Please watch your language. You are humiliating an entire nation based on the very limited knowledge you have on the issue.
187 Post contains images 7474ever : Your friend's comment doesn't sound good neither.
188 Emrecan : 7474ever: What I've said is true.. I am also sure you know this..
189 Post contains images 7474ever : True like the never-exsisted armenian genocide ?
190 Emrecan : 7474ever: Again my same question.. How the Armenians could have killed 550,000 Turkish people? Waiting the answer of this question for hours. Explain
191 Sebolino : OK, so it seems we are begining to agree on the deportation.
192 Emrecan : Sebolino: Answer my question..
193 7474ever : No my dear friend, I do not. What I do know is that you're not really "liked" by your neighbors neither (Greece, Armenia, the kurds...)
194 Post contains images Emrecan : 7474ever: Jews are not liked by Christians, Muslims.. Or we can say only Jews like Jews
195 7474ever : It seems like you don't like to answer questions neither... I've asked this in three different occasions.
196 Emrecan : Did you visit the site I wrote before? I think NO. You will find your answers. OK?
197 Sebolino : If I understand well, your question is : how could a genocide occur while Armenians killed 500000 turks ? I don't know if your numbers are accurate,
198 Asturias : I said *if anything*. The US is a republic of independant states. Sounds like you need a bit of humility. Asturias
199 7474ever : You think wrong. It's in turkish. And muslims are not liked by jews and christians, chrsitians are not liked by jews and muslims, jews are not liked
200 Sebolino : Statement of Hitler: "Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?"
201 7474ever : That's nothing to do with humilation but with the freedom of speech.
202 Post contains images Asturias : Good point! To answer Adolf's rhetorical question: Certainly not the Turks. Very good posts 7474ever! Thank you for your contribution to this thread.
203 7474ever : Thanks a lot, but yours are better. They're simply sharp !
204 TurkishWings : I think its time to lock this thread. Its no more discussing the Armenian issue. Its about Turkey bashing and who hates Turkey most.
205 7474ever : Do you know any ? Or you've just been "told" to unlike (hate?) them ?
206 Post contains images 7474ever : Where did you get silly idea from ? I really don't hate Turkey but rather like it. The point of this thread was completely different. It seems to me
207 ME AVN FAN : And such a statement from a self-convinced Spanish "Grande" ?!
208 Post contains images Asturias : What is a Spanish "Grande"? and what is self-convinced? cheers Asturias
209 Emrecan : I am back.. As I told before Jews are not liked by other nations or other religions. Again I saw that noone could have answered the question. How the
210 7474ever : Thanks for remindig us from time to time ! what would we do without you ? That's about the fourth...maybe even the fifth time you mention that in thi
211 Emrecan : 7474ever: I wrote about Jews because of your reply 59. I think you forgot what you`ve said. Also please be a man, dont tell me that I am hopeless or e
212 AirxLiban : Thanks for that silly comment. Israel is in an interesting and rather unique sociopolitical position in this world, but anyone who doesn't like Jews
213 JJJ : The simple answer is this: they did not. The Ottoman gov't of the time tried to pass every civilian casualty during WW1 as 'killed by Armenians' to h
214 7474ever : Let me correct myself. You're not just hopeless, but childish too. no comment
215 7474ever : Emrecan, pay attention, that's how a smart, open minded guy responses.
216 Emrecan : Again no answer.. men you are really funny.... Airxliban.. the answer is there.. very clear . It is not possible to kill 550,000 people when they are
217 ThereAndBack : Turkey and the Ottoman Empire are not the same thing. Turkey should not be responsible for something the Ottoman Empire did.
218 7474ever : You're right, I see your point, however... ...in general terms, Turkey has to face not only with it's "own" history (the past 80 or so years) but wit
219 AirxLiban : So your proof that the Armenian genocide did not exist is that the Armenians killed 550,000 Turks?
220 OzGlobal : Uhmmmm.... 500,000 was > than 400,000 last time I checked.
221 Asturias : Exactly. A change of government does not wipe out history and a nation has to face up to its history and make amends. That is the responsibility of a
222 L410Turbolet : Hmmm.... an effectively ungovernable monster collapsing under its own weight? Roman Empire and Babylon of modern times (taking the worst aspects from
223 Asturias : Not really, just a very fundamental misunderstanding on ME AVN FAN's part on what the EU actually is. cheers Asturias
224 Semsem : Spain committed "genocide" against the Jews and they don't admit it either. They deform history by whitewashing it as follows: No Jews were killed; th
225 Semsem : Emrican says: >>As I told before Jews are not liked by other nations or other religions. >> Emrican who cares if we are not liked by "other religions.
226 Asturias : Do you not accept that anyone not accepting Catholicism was expelled or killed? Are you also revising history like some of the Turkish members of thi
227 JJJ : I learnt about expulsion and massacres at school. Better check your sources on that. So? I am sure you know the story behind that picture. Oh well, m
228 Post contains images L410Turbolet : Could it possibly be because that other part is illegally occupied? You have some Attaturk personality cult running over there? Not exactly a healthy
229 7474ever : Iceland and Greenland are not part of the EU. Actually Greeland went even further. They declared that they have no interest to be a part of Europe bu
230 JJJ : I pasted the list directly from wiki, it's not exactly organized by size.
231 Asturias : As did I, but it would be unfair to all the other religions our forefathers persecuted and all the other non-Jewish people to focus only on the also-
232 Semsem : Asturias we were not persecuted because we were Jews? We were accused of killing Jesus. Of course I focus on persecutions of Jews. If I were Armenian,
233 Semsem : JJJ the story about the Palestinian scalf? There is no story. Zapatero is an antisemite and so is Monteneros the Foreign Minister. It's a known fact.
234 ME AVN FAN : I suppose you are just angry because Zapatero is not so pro-Israeli and pro-US-American and anti-Arab as Mr Aznar but more balanced and even-handed i
235 JJJ : Jews were accused of not being 'true Christians' (i.e. Catholics), so both you and Asturias are saying the same. Peace here. LOL. Yes, there is a sto
236 7474ever : Semsem, I think you're pretty off-topic here.
237 Post contains links Semsem : I think this article speaks for itself. http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/1,7340,L-3278919,00.html
238 JJJ : Frankly if you, as it seems, really believe what's written in that article, I feel deeply sorry for you. It really brings distortion and misinformatio
239 ME AVN FAN : "this article" among other aspects concentrates on his wearing a Keffiyeh, apparently to show his understanding for the struggle of the Palestinian p
240 Post contains images Asturias : Exactly, that is my point. I will not pursue it farther. Thank you for your input JJJ. Again, agreed. I for one have nothing but the deepest respect
241 Semsem : The web site is run by Yedioth Ahronoth, a leading newspaper. The picture of Zapatero grinning speaks for itself.
242 Asturias : It is an opinion piece. Don't mind Zapatero, he always smiles like that. Asturias
243 Post contains images L410Turbolet : Of course, this and a Che-Guevara t-shirt - two mandatory pieces of garderobe for every true Euro-Leftist. What a clown...
244 7474ever : Leading one - yes. Reliable - no.
245 Post contains images Allstarflyer : Quite the numbers you give there - does the same source have a more detailed breakdown of the over 2 million and how their deaths were classified (li
246 ME AVN FAN : I did NOT find a more detailed breakdown but I understand it to be deaths directly related to war activities and NOT to sickness.
247 Beaucaire : Turkish Wing- if I were a Turkish PM,I'd cancel my request to join EEC! It does not bring major advantages for Turkey-drive for a free-trade-zone /Se
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Photos Of My Trip To Spain, France And England posted Wed Jan 9 2002 21:50:57 by SunAir
MAC Vs PC - Pros And Cons Of Both posted Sun Aug 6 2006 18:28:47 by Boeing Nut
Renting Phones In France And Greece posted Wed Jul 19 2006 17:37:24 by RamerinianAir
France And Russia Have Condemned Israel's Attacks posted Thu Jul 13 2006 19:46:36 by Jacobin777
Tour De France And Google Earth posted Tue Jul 4 2006 11:45:37 by PerthGloryFan
Embassies And Consulates Of Iraq posted Wed Feb 8 2006 02:39:24 by AMS
The History And Future Of Scotland (for QFF Etc) posted Tue Jan 24 2006 13:24:39 by Gkirk
The Bias And Failures Of Islam posted Tue Jan 10 2006 23:14:08 by Ibhayi
Sick And Tired Of The Upsell posted Tue Nov 29 2005 19:33:00 by LHMARK
The Life And Death Of Belfast's 'Doris Day'. posted Wed Oct 12 2005 21:53:51 by GDB