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Europe Re-Examines Multiculturalism  
User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2311 times:

In America, most people believe in assimilation. That is, when you come here to live as an American, you must accept American mainstream cultural values in your dealings in the public realm. This is not a request, but an obligation. If you fail to comply, you will have significantly failed your duties to this country as a new American citizen, and the fault in this lies in you alone. While cultural distinctiveness may be optionally preserved where possible, if there is any conflict between American culture and your original culture in the public domain, the process of Americanization necessarily replaces any cultural values you once may have had.

In Europe, multiculturalism has been more the norm. According to a recent news story, it was thought that as long as one obeyed the law, it was acceptable, and even beneficial, to maintain one's own cultural identity, separate and apart from the mainstream.

Now, however, many Europeans are questioning whether multiculturalism is the right approach after all.

For a story in today's New York Times on both the newfound success of right-wing political parties and a rising tide of worry about the consequences of multiculturalism, please see:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/11/wo...?_r=1&pagewanted=print&oref=slogin

[Edited 2006-10-11 10:26:10]

89 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 1, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2300 times:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
In Europe, multiculturalism has been more the norm.

You're doing it yet again.  Yeah sure

"Europe" doesn't have a norm in these approaches. It varies from country to country. The approach in Britain, which has always very much been a multi-cultural one, is entirely different to that in France, which is more one of assimilation. Holland is different again, as is Germany. Britain absolutely is questioning the multi-cultural approach, but Britain ain't Europe.

When are you going to grasp that Europe is comprised of lots of different countries that have entirely different policies and cultures? Sweden and Spain are as alike as Canada and Venezuela.



She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlineLinco22 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 1380 posts, RR: 16
Reply 2, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2300 times:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
If you fail to comply

I think that needs clarification. Well for me anyway.


User currently offlineSingapore_Air From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 13739 posts, RR: 19
Reply 3, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2300 times:

Not a fan of leftists I see. Hmm.

From the UK perspective

Anyway, in the UK, there is a growing problem. Immigration is welcome as a token gesture but up to a point. Polish (migrants) people are looked down upon as they are willing to accept low paid jobs is one example.

I think that there is too much ghetto-isation in parts of the country and this is a failure of the "new" people to integrate, but also of the government.

My parents were refugees in the Vietnam War and came to England. Our (my dad's part) of the family got separated into Hertfordshire and London on the pure basis that the government welcomed the Vietnamese but felt they shouldn't be living too close as a family.

Shocking?

I am afraid that I have to agree with the less-than-pleasant, to put it mildly, CONservative party. The Human Rights Laws and associated seem (I am not well researched in this) to be a hindrance to getting rid of the extremists. Abu Hamza, (the cleric with the hook for a hand), was only gotten rid of because he travelled outside the UK of his own accord and was rightly not let back in. In my view he should have been chucked out in disgrace.

I am all for political correctness, however, as with everything, there is an unspoken line to be crossed and where that is causes inefficient and slow-moving debate.

The failure of multiculturalism lies on both the newcomer and the government it seems.

Irrationality also plays a part, in the sense of the idiginous fearing or sensing somethin bad about the newcomers. The media doesn't help but neither does the image of a Muslim, strong in his belief, in a white dress and long beard interrupting the Home Secretary when he's addressing a Muslim group of people about the realities of multi-culturalism and extremist links with terror..

We'd all be better off as Borg it seems.

Apologies for the obvious lack of structure in this post. I am supposed to be revising.




Quoting Banco (Reply 1):
but Britain ain't Europe.

Well, the average Britain would like to think he isn't in Europe Big grin

[Edited 2006-10-11 10:27:45]


Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2291 times:

Quoting Banco (Reply 1):
The approach in Britain, which has always very much been a multi-cultural one, is entirely different to that in France, which is more one of assimilation.

Why are there ghettoes in Paris where the riots occurred in the last year, then?

Quoting Linco22 (Reply 2):
I think that needs clarification. Well for me anyway.

I'll give you an example.

If, during elections or other public proceedings, you insist that others speak your language, instead of speaking the English language, for example, you will have failed to comply with the expectation that Americans speak, understand, and use only English in matters of public import. Out of an interest in public participation, some accommodation might be made for those citizens who, while otherwise capable of understanding the issues at hand, are too old to learn the English language, but such accommodation would be a limited privilege, not a right, and it would not be proper if it were made the subject of any demand by the new citizen.

[Edited 2006-10-11 10:36:56]

User currently offlineLinco22 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 1380 posts, RR: 16
Reply 5, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2285 times:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 4):
Why are there ghettoes in Paris where the riots occurred last year, then?

That doesn't mean all the nations are the same.

Thank you for your example.

In terms of a language problem we have that here in the North of Ireland. Well it isn't so much a problem.


User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 6, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2283 times:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 4):
Quoting Banco (Reply 1):
The approach in Britain, which has always very much been a multi-cultural one, is entirely different to that in France, which is more one of assimilation.

Why are there ghettoes in Paris where the riots occurred last year, then?

There are ghettoes in the US where riots occur. Does that mean France is identical to the US?

Look, that very post shows that you haven't the faintest idea about Europe. It's not like comparing Nebraska and Montana, these are different countries with completely, totally, irreducibly different cultures and policies. You CANNOT say "Europe" the way you do, any more than you can say "America", "Asia" or "Africa". You might as well lump Mexico and the US together and say they're the same. Culturally, Britain has far more in common with the US that it does France. Until and unless you grasp this, you will not have the faintest idea what any of this is about. It is a pre-requisite for understanding, and if you can't do it, then any conversation is completely pointless.



She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12462 posts, RR: 46
Reply 7, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2272 times:
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Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
That is, when you come here to live as an American, you must accept American mainstream cultural values in your dealings in the public realm. This is not a request, but an obligation.

That must explain why Spanish is so popular and why most major US cities have a Chinatown. sarcastic 



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2259 times:

Quoting Banco (Reply 6):
There are ghettoes in the US where riots occur. Does that mean France is identical to the US?

It depends on why ghettoes form. Do they form for political or economic reasons?

Quoting Banco (Reply 6):
Look, that very post shows that you haven't the faintest idea about Europe.

Would you please read the article? I'm deriving my terminology from what the article says.

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 7):
That must explain why Spanish is so popular and why most major US cities have a Chinatown.  sarcastic 

Actually, many Hispanics say that Spanish is less and less popular with each succeeding generation.


User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 9, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2258 times:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 8):
Would you please read the article?

Would do if it didn't require membership to do so. P'raps I should have mentioned that earlier?  Wink



She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2253 times:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 8):
It depends on why ghettoes form. Do they form for political or economic reasons?

Do you know why French ghettos form? Or are you just going to go for the simplistic view that 'Europe embraces multiculturalism, therefore any race problems are as a direct result of that'?

The fact is that the French policy is for assimilation, not multiculturalism. In fact, it tends more towards assimilation than America. Britain on the other hand is the polar opposite and wholehearted embraced multiculturalism from the early 60s onwards.


User currently offlineToulouse From Switzerland, joined Apr 2005, 2758 posts, RR: 58
Reply 11, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2235 times:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 4):
Why are there ghettoes in Paris where the riots occurred in the last year, then?



Quoting Banco (Reply 6):
There are ghettoes in the US where riots occur. Does that mean France is identical to the US?

Hi AerospaceFan. I do tend to agree with many of the posters that you do not seem to have a solid grasp of European culture, and I suppose that's why you're asking!

The whole thing with the gettoes in large French cities (in general) is getting a bit old now. These types of ghettoes exist in many places around the world, and are clearly not a good idea, as it usually consists in literally having hundreds if not thousands of families, generally with low or no income and usually immigrants (but not always) in a single building, surrounded by other such buildings. It's a bad idea. France openned it's arms to immigrants some 40 years ago, and started building these "ghettoes", which they probably thought was a great idea. Big new appartment blocks, services, green areas for all these immigrants, probably much better than what they had at home, and which to an extent must be true or they wouldn't have come and stayed. Slowly people, both the residents, engineers, urban designers and politicians started to realise "whoops, this wa not such a great idea". In my four years so far living in France, I frequently hear this and hear of the attempts by French authorities to improve these ghettoes (often referred to as "cités") and preferibly knock them down and rebuild something much better. This will all take time, and I think a vast part of the problems in last years riots in France were more due to young "yobbos" with nothing better to do than cause trouble in reaction to the rather harsh stanced taken by M. Sarkozy.

I would also say that France aims for a high level of assimilation. I know many immigrants here in France (referring to immigrants who left poor countries in search of a better life) and many of them have achieved that, they have jobs, fixed salaries, a home, a car, a family and usually tell me how happy they are living in France. All you have to do is walk around any French city and you will see the huge number of immigrants, and to be honest, they have "mainly" just become part of the landscape and seem to quite well accepted, certainly as accepted as in the US. And let's face it, there are also plenty of problems towards immigrants in the US.

Personnally I prefer a multicultural approach, while the immgrants abide by local laws and customs also, as well there own customs. If they want to speak their own language, let them! Obviously they should make every effort to learn their new local vernacular, but that's not so easy for all. Just imagine if you had to immigrate to Venezuela or Saudi Arabia for example, and you were told you "had to become" a local citizen, act like a local citizen and speak the local language. Hard? Wouldn't you feel bad if the locals looked down on you because you couldn't speak their language well, or if you were speaking in English with a friend while sitting on a bus. I do not agree for one second with the US process of "Amercanization" in which the immigrant must, according to you "replace any cultural values you once may have had" in the event of "if there is any conflict between American culture and your original culture in the public domain". I think it's idealistic and sound nice. But again I ask you, if you "had to" immigrate and the country you lived in went to war for example with the US, how would you feel about being obliged to "oppose" your homeland?

Ok, I'm starting to rant a bit here so I'll stop for a while!



Long live Aer Lingus!
User currently offlineKay From France, joined Mar 2002, 1884 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2224 times:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
whether multiculturalism is the right approach after all

Personally, after having travelled and seen the world, I understand rightists. I really do. If the way you live your life isn't important, then what is?

Have you ever had your dinners boycotted by some because Alcohol was being served? I have.

Did you ever have a neighbour lock up his wife at home, and only let her out when he was there? I did.

Are the above too cases extreme? NO. Maybe it's a power game, maybe there are more roots to the problem, but God I am sticking to my relaxed non-extremist way of life, and sticking to people who do the same!

Kay


User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2195 times:

Hello, everyone. Thank you for your interesting comments.

Because Banco has advised that he cannot access the article, please allow me to quote a fair-use excerpt from the same for your convenience of reference:

(Excerpt)

Quote:
October 11, 2006
Across Europe, Worries on Islam Spread to Center
By DAN BILEFSKY and IAN FISHER
BRUSSELS, Oct. 10 — Europe appears to be crossing an invisible line regarding its Muslim minorities: more people in the political mainstream are arguing that Islam cannot be reconciled with European values.

“You saw what happened with the pope,” said Patrick Gonman, 43, the owner of Raga, a funky wine bar in downtown Antwerp, 25 miles from here. “He said Islam is an aggressive religion. And the next day they kill a nun somewhere and make his point.

“Rationality is gone.”

Mr. Gonman is hardly an extremist. In fact, he organized a protest last week in which 20 bars and restaurants closed on the night when a far-right party with an anti-Muslim message held a rally nearby.

His worry is shared by centrists across Europe angry at terror attacks in the name of religion on a continent that has largely abandoned it, and disturbed that any criticism of Islam or Muslim immigration provokes threats of violence.

For years those who raised their voices were mostly on the far right. Now those normally seen as moderates — ordinary people as well as politicians — are asking whether once unquestioned values of tolerance and multiculturalism should have limits.

[ * * * ]

Now Europeans are discussing the limits of tolerance, the right with increasing stridency and the left with trepidation.

Austrians in their recent election complained about public schools in Vienna being nearly full with Muslim students and blamed the successive governments that allowed it to happen.

[ * * * ]

The backlash is revealing itself in other ways. Last month the British home secretary, John Reid, called on Muslim parents to keep a close watch on their children. “There’s no nice way of saying this,” he told a Muslim group in East London. “These fanatics are looking to groom and brainwash children, including your children, for suicide bombing, grooming them to kill themselves to murder others.”



It is a sad story, it seems, and one should view any potentially excessive crackdown against diversity with a jaundiced eye.


User currently offlineThePRGuy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2193 times:

Europe is not a country.
IT cannot be taken on such a wide scale.
The cultural acceptance values would be different in France than in the UK, Italy, Greece, Spain etc.
It cannot be generalised, however I do believe in the ethnic minorities 'obeying' the 'culture' if you can call it that in some countries as a gesture of good will.
Thanks
PR


User currently onlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5694 posts, RR: 18
Reply 15, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2167 times:

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 11):
Just imagine if you had to immigrate to Venezuela or Saudi Arabia for example, and you were told you "had to become" a local citizen, act like a local citizen and speak the local language. Hard?

Hard, but perfectly understandable. What's wrong with that?


User currently offlineHalls120 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2162 times:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
That is, when you come here to live as an American, you must accept American mainstream cultural values in your dealings in the public realm. This is not a request, but an obligation. If you fail to comply, you will have significantly failed your duties to this country as a new American citizen, and the fault in this lies in you alone. While cultural distinctiveness may be optionally preserved where possible, if there is any conflict between American culture and your original culture in the public domain, the process of Americanization necessarily replaces any cultural values you once may have had.

Really? Where in the Constitution or other public document is this obligation recorded?

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 7):
Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
That is, when you come here to live as an American, you must accept American mainstream cultural values in your dealings in the public realm. This is not a request, but an obligation.

That must explain why Spanish is so popular and why most major US cities have a Chinatown.

Don't forget the explosion of spanish-language radio and television stations in the US. I wonder how they do that when Spanish is supposedly less popular with succeeding generations.


User currently offlineJJJ From Spain, joined May 2006, 1817 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2155 times:

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 16):
Don't forget the explosion of spanish-language radio and television stations in the US. I wonder how they do that when Spanish is supposedly less popular with succeeding generations.

It used to happen, but not any more.

The times when 2nd or 3rd generation inmigrants prided themselves in not knowing Spanish are gone.

Spanish is mainstream now, with all the consequences.


User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2145 times:

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 16):
Really? Where in the Constitution or other public document is this obligation recorded?

Twenty-seven states of our Union -- the majority of them, plus one -- have passed laws declaring English to be the official language of that state, excluding twenty-eighth state whose legislation to that effect was declared invalid.

Pending has been a Congressional bill that nationalizes the status of English to this effect.

Please see, e.g.:

http://www.us-english.org/inc/official/states.asp

[Edited 2006-10-11 17:58:56]

User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 19, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2132 times:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 18):
have passed laws declaring English to be the official language of that state,

Have they really?

More than we've ever done in the UK; we don't have a constitutionally created official language - unless you count Norman French, which must still be used for certain elements of legislation.



She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2125 times:

Quoting Banco (Reply 19):
More than we've ever done in the UK; we don't have a constitutionally created official language - unless you count Norman French, which must still be used for certain elements of legislation.

Yes, but consider that in Britain, even the "constitution" part of the "constitutional monarchy" under which your system of goverment operates appears to be, in the main, unwritten, or a matter of custom.


User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 21, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2123 times:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 20):
Yes, but consider that in Britain, even the "constitution" part of the "constitutional monarchy" under which your system of goverment operates appears to be, in the main, unwritten, or a matter of custom.

It appears you've been studying. Well done.  Wink



She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2113 times:

Quoting Banco (Reply 19):
More than we've ever done in the UK; we don't have a constitutionally created official language - unless you count Norman French, which must still be used for certain elements of legislation.

True, but presumably laws and regulations regarding the publication of official documents (passports, drivers licences, Government Gazette (or whatever the equivalent is), must state something about what language they are produced in ? I believe Welsh drivers licenses are produced in Welsh and English, and there are some safeguards regarding the Welsh language in Wales, for example.

Re Norman French, I would think it possible that at least some of the very early laws documented by the very early Kings and Parliaments may have been written in Latin - Parliament consisting at that time of churchmen as well as barons.


User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2113 times:

Quoting Banco (Reply 21):
It appears you've been studying. Well done.  Wink

Either that, or a couple of memory cells have reactivated. Quite inexplicably, I might add.

 Wink


User currently offlineCornish From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 8187 posts, RR: 54
Reply 24, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 2104 times:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
For a story in today's New York Times on both the newfound success of right-wing political parties and a rising tide of worry about the consequences of multiculturalism,

hmm well as mentioned by numerous people above, there is no standard way that all European countries and their populations behave. We all are different.

However this whole issue of right-wing political parties is being overstressed. More often than not the Right becomes popular because the Left, in power, is unpopular - and vice versa. To assume that this is happening because of multiculturalism is very simplistic reasoning. There may be the odd bit of protest voting temporarily here and there, but it is not the b-all and end-all.

More commonly European voters vote differently becuse of dissatisfaction with the economy and issues like that. (Germany being a prime example). Ignore the sensational stories that the press like to put out, the reality is that the War on Terror and national security are not the key issues when it comes to General elections.

The rise of the Right could just as easily be put down to protest voting against a current government over things that deep down have nothing to do with muticulturalism or issues like that. It often happens in Europe from time to time and then they disappear again only to pop up sometime in the future for a short while.



Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
25 Banco : In a sort of backhand way. English is clearly the de facto official language and legislation with regard to Welsh or Gaelic or (God help us all) Corn
26 JGPH1A : There should definitely be a law against Cornish, as he is an offense against man and beast.
27 Banco : Although as I understand it, he was only charged on the latter count....
28 JGPH1A : Investigations are still under way on the former count by Consumer Protection officers, under the Trades Descriptions Act. The ad said "For a Good Ti
29 Post contains images Asturias : I'm not complaining I like this development in the US. Spanish is a beutiful language and very similar to English in many ways. At least in vocabular
30 Halls120 : Sorry, but that's not what you said. You said "That is, when you come here to live as an American, you must accept American mainstream cultural value
31 Post contains links AerospaceFan : That part, which isn't the part you originally cited, is not in fact set forth in law. However, it is an expectation, because assimilation is an expe
32 Post contains links Searpqx : About the same time that he realizes that his definition of left & right don't equate to wrong & right, in other words never. If the US is the model
33 Toulouse : Thanks for posting the article, an interesting read, but to be honest, I'm not overly concerned about. As a European living in another European count
34 AerospaceFan : Searpqx, you may be surprised to know that in the past, my views were considered quite liberal. I don't think that we've had riots in Los Angeles for
35 Searpqx : I can only address what I've seen you post. Since your first post on this board you've consistently posited a view that the Right is right and the Le
36 AerospaceFan : For a number of reasons, including a legacy of past failures and the inability of some to find jobs. There are also issues of personal responsibility
37 Post contains images Halls120 : Who says it is an "expectation?" You? A single conservative writer with the Heritage Foundation? The simple fact is that you made a grand pronounceme
38 AerospaceFan : My comment that it wasn't statutory was about the need to assimilate. However, there are in fact laws that mandate the learning of the English langua
39 AerospaceFan : By the way, here is the relevant language from the Guadalupe Organization case mentioned in the excerpt from Yniguez: (Excerpt) Guadalupe Organization
40 Halls120 : According to the website you provided a link to, most laws that set out English as an official language state do so in the following manner: "Declari
41 AndesSMF : When the Europeans realize that the same applies to the US. And when was the last time the US had large scale race based riots? BS! There are many fa
42 L410Turbolet : It does? Oregonians totally different nation with distinct culture/history/language from let's say Washingtonians?
43 ME AVN FAN : it is NOT a new matter at all. In Switzerland for example was a public vote around 1970 which, had people approved, would have resulted in the evicti
44 Toulouse : LePen is an idiot. I do not think he has had considerable success, he has simply been used by disgruntled French voters on the first round of which 9
45 ME AVN FAN : well, but his FN is in many local governments (maires, etc) and in a variety of parliaments with more than 10% true, there is some xenophobia around.
46 Cedars747 : Well said Banco! Alex!!!
47 767Lover : Of course it's not a totally different nation. But there ARE distinct differences in the attitudes/values/opinions/culture of various regions of the
48 BHXFAOTIPYYC : ... at the expense of British culture perhaps? I don't think that many "native" Brits are all that pleased with multiculturalism at all. Magna Carta
49 FDXMECH : Actually the word "ghetto" is not used anymore in the US, but rather "inner city". I'm not sure if the connotation is the same either. In the US it u
50 Banco : Yes, but they aren't the full constitution. What AerospaceFan is referring to is Britain's system of a partly written, partly unwritten, but uncodifi
51 Post contains images BHXFAOTIPYYC : Ah, OK. Still don't worry, the EU is working on a nice constitution for us all, so we like it or not.
52 AerospaceFan : Whatever the EU says and does in its proposed constitution will be subject to the legal interpretation of those in Brussels who may have their own age
53 ME AVN FAN : Let's take the French example you apparently have in mind. Nobody was "funneled" into areas, but "satellite-cities" with modern high-rise apartment b
54 AerospaceFan : But given that Brussels is so culturally different from, say, Dublin, how could there be other than a sense of alienation?
55 MCIGuy : English is quickly being adopted as our official language and I applaud that. The problem is that here currently, folks from other nations are demadin
56 ME AVN FAN : People in Brussels, both such from the Flemish Nord and such from the French/Walloon South complain that those EU people are soooo different from the
57 GSM763 : Printing instructions/road signs or whatever.in other languages is not a big problem people in Wales/Catalonia/Eskudi/Switzerland I could go on and o
58 MCIGuy : The thing is, the US is a huge nation with a large developed population. To provide all public services in several languages here would prove to be a
59 AerospaceFan : Another thing about multilingualism is that we don't want to copy the European style for some very good reasons: There are drawbacks to European multi
60 JGPH1A : Multilingualism and multiculturalism are a historical fact and a current reality in Europe - how else can it ever be ? There won't ever be a single E
61 777236ER : What 'British culture' is being eroded because of multiculturalism?
62 Post contains images JGPH1A : Cuisine for one - the traditional British "yellow lamb, raisins 'n chunks of swede" curry, served since time immemorial at boarding schools the lengt
63 777236ER : Save Sunday roasts, Yorkshire puddings, pork pies and fish and chips, British cuisine is really pretty dire. Food alone should be the reason all Brits
64 AerospaceFan : Food is one of those things that has really improved over the last century. I remember reading what was on a first-class dinner menu for an ocean voya
65 Halls120 : Great, food is better because of multiculturalism. While I dine on some excellent leftover chinese food from last night, I'm wondering what happened
66 AerospaceFan : Halls, I answered that question. And I'm not in a habit of responding to demands. With all due respect, where are your manners, Halls? It seems that
67 JGPH1A : It's not THAT bad - there is a lot of creative and enjoyable Brit-food, which when well prepared and presented is as good as anything in France or an
68 Post contains images AerospaceFan : London Broil is awesome food, too. And fish and chips. Woohoo! [Edited 2006-10-15 18:26:31]
69 Post contains images 777236ER : It really really can be.
70 ThePRGuy : Do you have some kind of serious problem with anything British? You are happy to abandon the [non existant] culture as you put it and shun all the 'c
71 Post contains images JGPH1A : I know ! I was at boarding school in England for 4 years, I remember school dinners ! *shudder*
72 Post contains links Lehpron : Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter): In America, most people believe in assimilation. That is, when you come here to live as an American, you must a
73 777236ER : I love Britain, and I love the culture of Britain (which does exist, but isn't being erroded by foreigners!). But seriously, some of the food has tak
74 Halls120 : Where did you answer my question? If I missed your answer, please point it out, and I'll apologize. And how have I "demanded" that you answer my ques
75 AerospaceFan : Indeed. Nor would I want you to. Except in the public realm, as I noted. I thought that fish was good for you?
76 Santosdumont : The idea that Americans must "assimilate" into "mainstream" cultural values is nebulous at best and a slippery jingoistic slope at worst. Who is goin
77 AerospaceFan : Hello, Santosdumont! It is a pleasure to be able to correspond with you here. May I direct your attention to some of the reasons set forth in my quota
78 Post contains images Lehpron : Just wanted to note, I wasn't aiming my rant at you, just those yahoo's who complain about people being different, as if it is bad. Its all about how
79 Klaus : Good point - I think the best measure of "successful" integration is whether someone is willing to make a positive contribution to the shared communi
80 MCIGuy : I couldn't agree with you more! That's the problem here though, a large percentage of folks want to come here and be a drain on our system rather tha
81 Klaus : I don't think it's actually quite that simple - it seems by far most of the unwelcome immigrants to the western countries actually do want to work, m
82 MCIGuy : Not all of them and even when they do, they come from a culture that believes in large families with many children and does not believe in birth cont
83 Klaus : As I said: there are hardly any really unskilled jobs to be had any more. And generalizations in either direction need to be made with great care, if
84 Halls120 : You are correct - most all of the immigrants do want to work. That isn't the problem. The problem is the strain they put on social services. They arr
85 Post contains images Klaus : Great... just look where pretty much exactly that has gotten us by now! The fiction that the turkish "guest workers" were supposed to go back one day
86 Halls120 : In my guest worker program, only the worker comes - not his or her family. Harsh, but that's the way it is. And when the visa is granted, it is grant
87 Klaus : That's simply unrealistic and harsh - except for maybe giving you a warm and fuzzy feeling of being "real tough" it has hardly any real benefits. You
88 Post contains images Halls120 : LOL, if only we had the capability of keeping the borders closed! The real problem we have with our immigration policy is that the policy we currentl
89 Post contains images Klaus : Yeah, sounds like pretty much any other policy around...!
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