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Army Chief Of Staff: U.S. Troops In Iraq Till '10  
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2591 times:

Yes, George W. Bush was right for once-this will be the problem of another president. He's going to apparently have to watch someone else try to clean up his disaster.

http://articles.news.aol.com/news/_a...75509990018?ncid=NWS00010000000001

Thanks, George. You wanted this to be your legacy. And you were right-it will be.

61 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineJetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7437 posts, RR: 50
Reply 1, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2578 times:
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Let the hand-wringing begin.


Made from jets!
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21521 posts, RR: 53
Reply 2, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2571 times:

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 1):
Let the hand-wringing begin.

Basic standard accountability would be entirely sufficient for most of us.


User currently offlineJetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7437 posts, RR: 50
Reply 3, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2570 times:
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The Army chief of staff, Gen. Peter J. Schoomaker, cautioned against reading too much into the planning, saying it is easier to pull back forces than to prepare and deploy units at the last minute.
"This is not a prediction that things are going poorly or better," Schoomaker told reporters. "It's just that I have to have enough ammo in the magazine that I can continue to shoot as long as they want us to shoot."

Sounds like an Army General exuding a little confidense.



Made from jets!
User currently offlineDrDeke From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 830 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2568 times:

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 1):
Let the hand-wringing begin.

Hand-wringing? Like we should all be running around carefree because things are going so well and there are no problems? Whiskey...

-DrDeke



If you don't want it known, don't say it on a phone.
User currently offlineJetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7437 posts, RR: 50
Reply 5, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2556 times:
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Quoting DrDeke (Reply 4):
Hand-wringing? Like we should all be running around carefree because things are going so well and there are no problems?

So we should be getting all angry and bent out of shape over this? Regardless of what your opinions are over the war, we have to win this, and we have to finish it. Even Falcon knows that, because i've seen him say it. But living in rage over something that's out your control is pointless.

Quoting DrDeke (Reply 4):
Whiskey...

Scotch please, single malt.



Made from jets!
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2556 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 2):
Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 1):
Let the hand-wringing begin.

Basic standard accountability would be entirely sufficient for most of us

Woodward certianly got that book right: State of Denial.

Way to tow the party line, Jack.  Yeah sure


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21521 posts, RR: 53
Reply 7, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2547 times:

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 5):
So we should be getting all angry and bent out of shape over this?

You should demand that the individuals holding elected office in your name should rise to the inherent demand for accountability which comes with every delegated responsibility.

As things stand, those clowns have ruined your country's reputation, caused massive damage on all levels and yet they act as if they themselves had absolutely nothing to do with it all, and none of the consequences could ever touch them as the ones in charge.

The buck has been gutted and thrown to the dogs, I'm afraid, it stops nowhere at all with this administration, apparently!


User currently offlineJetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7437 posts, RR: 50
Reply 8, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2542 times:
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Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 6):
Way to tow the party line, Jack

1stly, nope, we don't have party affiliation here in WA. 2ndly, what is the real underlying message for posting this?



Made from jets!
User currently offlineUH60FtRucker From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2542 times:

Hmmmm.... it's 2006, correct? We'll be there until 2010, you say? Average deployment of 12 months, with six months in between? Hmmm.... that means I have at least two more deployments.  bored 

But hey... at least that means two more deployments of tax free income!! WOO-HOO!!!  hyper 

----------------------------

But in all seriousness... I could have told you this news 8mnths ago. We're digging in for the long haul. We're building long term structures, we're laying the foundation for a complex base infrastructure and... in many ways... anything I would typically find on a base in the US, I can find here in Iraq.

This is honestly no surprise to me. (However, I know my wife is gonna flip out.  worried  )

-UH60


User currently offlineJetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7437 posts, RR: 50
Reply 10, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2537 times:
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Quoting Klaus (Reply 7):
You should demand that the individuals holding elected office in your name should rise to the inherent demand for accountability which comes with every delegated responsibility.

And Klaus, you are so right. But if we're going to hang Bush out to dry, calling it "his war", then we all need a reality check. Because the Democrats are just as culpable. They voted for it too. John Kerry, Hillary Clinton and host of others in the US House and Senate, are also to held to account. Bill Clinton called Saddam a threat to US national Security in 1999 and 2000. So if we're going lay blame, let's include all the parties involved. But accountability will be told when election time comes around. We will see what happens. But until then, just enjoy life instead of going stark-raving mad.



Made from jets!
User currently offlineTu204 From Russia, joined Mar 2006, 1255 posts, RR: 17
Reply 11, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2533 times:

Maybe you guys should learn from us how we solved the problem in Afghanistan and pull out? That is the only thing you can do now - minimise your losses.


I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
User currently offlineUH60FtRucker From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2529 times:

Quoting Tu204 (Reply 11):
Maybe you guys should learn from us how we solved the problem in Afghanistan and pull out? That is the only thing you can do now - minimise your losses.

Well in all fairness - just like America in Vietnam - the Soviet Union got it's ass kicked in Afghanistan.

It's a little different here in Iraq. The Americans aren't getting the brunt of the insurgent led violence... Iraqi civilians are.

-UH60


User currently offlineAA61Hvy From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 13977 posts, RR: 57
Reply 13, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2527 times:

Just being devil's advocate, it is easier to pull troops out then put troops back in Iraq. Maybe its the better safe than sorry attitude. But who knows? I'm not a political analyst.


Go big or go home
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21521 posts, RR: 53
Reply 14, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2527 times:

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 10):
And Klaus, you are so right.

Why, thank you...! Big grin

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 10):
But if we're going to hang Bush out to dry, calling it "his war", then we all need a reality check. Because the Democrats are just as culpable. They voted for it too.

Yeah, the fool and the one who's following him... True to an extent, but still the assignment of responsibility can't overlook the differences in origin and access to supposedly high-quality intelligence information.

The democrats fucked themselves to the hilt, no doubt about that. Still, they followed like cattle to the slaughter, they didn't invent the whole affair and push it on their population and everybody else...

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 10):
But until then, just enjoy life instead of going stark-raving mad.

Just read my posts again - I demand accountability - in any decent democracy that is a simple matter of course, a basic essential of democracy itself.

That you've stopped demanding responsibility and accountability from your very own elected officials may be for your own entertainment, but it very obviously hasn't resulted in anything positive, to put it mildly...


User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2522 times:

Jack, you ask why should we get angry about this?

I recall June 1st, 2003, and the "Mission Accomplished" bull crap. You remember that, or, like the WMD's, are you gonna have selective amensia on that?

Every American should be angry. We went from what, the administration had thought, would be a fairly quick war, to a conflict that may drag out 7 YEARS. That's longer than our involvement in World War II, for Chrissake!

And, in that whole time, the only people this president has asked to sacrifice ANYTHING, is the soldiers, and their families-sacrifice lives, income, happiness-you name it. We're in a long conflict, and this dolt is giving TAX BREAKS to the wealthies Americans; he's not asking the American people to help out-he wants us to act like it's the Roaring 20's again, and have a good time, while only the soldiers and their families bear the brunt.

And you tell me not to be angry? You know where you can put that one, good buddy.


User currently offlineJetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7437 posts, RR: 50
Reply 16, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2513 times:
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Quoting Klaus (Reply 14):
Just read my posts again - I demand accountability - in any decent democracy that is a simple matter of course, a basic essential of democracy itself.

That you've stopped demanding responsibility and accountability from your very own elected officials may be for your own entertainment, but it very obviously hasn't resulted in anything positive, to put it mildly...

In the last year or so, i've began to doubt whether we should've gone to war, I was a staunch supporter. I still haven't come to a conclusion becuase I don't really know what is actually going on over there. But today, that's irrelevant at this juncture, because we need to win this. And when it is all over, yes, we should be holding those involved to accountability when it is clear that wrongdoing has happened. That is still subject to debate. But let's sit here and kid ourselves. There are much more at fault here than just Bush and the Republicans. There are others out there who are at fault also.



Made from jets!
User currently offlineUH60FtRucker From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2510 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 15):
I recall June 1st, 2003, and the "Mission Accomplished" bull crap. You remember that, or, like the WMD's, are you gonna have selective amensia on that?

Well Falcon, in all honesty, the mission WAS successfully accomplished.

The problem is, people have a difficult time separating the War WITH Iraq from the War IN Iraq. Did President Bush believe the war was mostly over, of course he did. And I'll walk carefully when I say this: but it was a rather large "misjudgement" on his part.

But to deride the Mission Accomplish Speech, is wrong. What the American military accomplished was incredible. They achieved a stunning victory and it was right to praise them for a job well done.

The Iraq War was a success.... the jury is still out on the War in Iraq.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 15):
TAX BREAKS to the wealthies Americans

Totally off topic... but those taxes were most corporate aimed, not personal income targeted. ... And have proven to be quite successful.

-UH60


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21521 posts, RR: 53
Reply 18, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2509 times:

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 16):
And when it is all over, yes, we should be holding those involved to accountability when it is clear that wrongdoing has happened.

Not holding the losers in charge accountable means they'll keep screwing up until all is lost - that is the problem.

Leaving Rumsfeld in charge of the Pentagon is completely irresponsible, just like "staying the course" when the cliffs are clearly in sight ahead and the ship is already taking water...


User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2503 times:

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 17):
Well Falcon, in all honesty, the mission WAS successfully accomplished.

I'm sorry, my friend, but I beg to differ. Had the mission truely been accomplished, and not bungled by the politicians in DC-i.e, evicerating the Iraqi police and military to help maintain control; not sending enough troops to do the job; totally underestimating or even dismissing any opposition, the mission would, in all likelihood, be over now.

But you're still stuck there, because those who were in charge of planning failed you, and the American people.

That's my view.


User currently offlineUH60FtRucker From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2489 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 19):
But you're still stuck there, because those who were in charge of planning failed you, and the American people.

But that's the problem... you're not differentiating between the invasion and the post offensive rebuilding effort.

That speech followed the quickest modern invasion and over throw of a government since WWII and France. And it certainly incurred the least amount of causalities than ever before.

If you've ever read about what those soldiers did, you'd know it was a huge military victory. People think there was no resistance from Kuwait to Baghdad, which is totally wrong. The Allied invasion WAS a success.

And President Bush's speech followed on the heals of that success. Of course, who are we kidding, he gave that speech thinking it was the end and we'd be home for Christmas. But still... it still doesn't mean we should deny those men and women the "pat on the back" for what they did.

They did a top-notch job, and a simple speech was the least we could do for them.

-UH60


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21521 posts, RR: 53
Reply 21, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2483 times:

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 20):
That speech followed the quickest modern invasion and over throw of a government since WWII and France. And it certainly incurred the least amount of causalities than ever before.

Maybe on your own side - we know that the iraqi casualties have simply not been counted. Very convenient, but most certainly not a valid reason to simply assume there were none (see the parallel thread).

And no disrespect to your fellow soldiers, but the iraqi army was the remnants of a near-starved, badly motivated and embargo-weakened army which had been soundly beaten right before the embargo started and never recovered from that - had the US forces actually managed to not win easily, it would have been a really, really bad sign!

It was never in doubt that the iraqi army would lose (and they themselves knew it just as well) - it was just widely predicted that the occupation would be what would have required a significantly larger deployment (refer to general Shinseki here).

Winning the Invasion was always known to be the easier part of the whole affair. Known to anyone but the Bush administration, that is...!  crazy 


User currently offlineTu204 From Russia, joined Mar 2006, 1255 posts, RR: 17
Reply 22, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2483 times:

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 12):
Well in all fairness - just like America in Vietnam - the Soviet Union got it's ass kicked in Afghanistan.

It's a little different here in Iraq. The Americans aren't getting the brunt of the insurgent led violence... Iraqi civilians are.

I agree, there is also the thing about us helping the Viatnamese and you guys helping the Afghans...so I guess we are even Big grin
But I think that in both situations we saw that staying there would be futile and would acomplish nothing but some more dead troops. I guess that you can answer this question better than I can: can you accomplish something in the next couple of years that will justify another 2000+ dead troops? It looks to me like it is not only the insurgents that are fighting but the entire population with each other.



I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2482 times:

Looks like Evan Bayh or Mitt Romney will have their hands full (No, Hillary, you can't win; you too, maverick John).

My money's on Bayh. Handsome like Mitt, but with none of the baggage to bring to a Bush-weary electorate.

The first thing any new President should do is make Bush Ambassador-for-Life to Iraq so he can first hand witness his handiwork. Condi can go make a mess of the NFL, and Rummy can join SNL where he belongs.

Basically, we're f*cked. Iraq's f*cked. The new President of the USA is f*cked.


User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2475 times:

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 20):
But that's the problem... you're not differentiating between the invasion and the post offensive rebuilding effort.

I'm not because there's an obvious continuity between the two. Without the first, you don't have the second, and, with a continuing insurgency bordering on civil war, the latter can't successfully be done.

So, in a sense, we ARE still in the war that was originally fought, just a different phase of it, and one the politico's obviously didn't count on.

Keep safe, man. Thinking of you and all those over there.


25 Jaysit : These are the opening comments of Bush's speech" Major combat operations in Iraq have ended. In the Battle of Iraq, the United States and our allies h
26 11Bravo : You're absolutely right, it's all part of the same Iraq War. The initial operation was a spectacular success. One of the most impressive military cam
27 Post contains images ANCFlyer : Hate to burst your Anti-Bush bubble there Falcon, but what Gen Schoomaker said was planning for the troops to stay - and that he has 15 Combat Brigad
28 Bushpilot : For anyone who has even been paying mild attention to the situation there this shouldnt be a surprise at all. As ANC has pointed out, I think it will
29 UH60FtRucker : Don't forget we went into Desert Storm with 775,000 coalition soldier (30+ nations), with 600,000 being US forces. We had 200 days (6.5 months) to bu
30 UH60FtRucker : Right... and don't you think that saying, "You did a great job guys, and you made us proud." is a GOOD thing? President Bush's main motives might hav
31 11Bravo : Absolutely. No question. The president and every other American should have gone out of their way to congratulate the troops on their fine accomplish
32 Jetjack74 : As UH60 said, the "Mission Accomplished" banner was to announce that major combat operations in Iraq had ended which was the truth. The regime, along
33 11Bravo : The insurgency is a multi-headed monster with numerous groups fighting for their own particular agenda. Some days they fight each other, and some day
34 DavestanKSAN : I agree with what you're saying about the "Mission Accomplished" banner. It was a great job by our servicemen and women. The main problem why I think
35 Post contains images Klaus : No. They fight because certain influential leaders (warlords) use religious pretenses to further their own respective power positions. No. What would
36 Halls120 : And let's not forget the fact that the SecDef at least wasn't even planning for a post offensive rebuilding effort. Anybody who brought that up in th
37 Post contains images Klaus : And yet americans in general - on both sides of the main issue - somehow forget to consider that there actually might have been any, which is especia
38 Halls120 : I disagree. Anyone who reads the Washington Post and the other major newspapers are frequently reminded of the loss not only to US personnel, but to
39 Post contains images ANCFlyer : They key here is exactly what you said Halls . . . . . . "from Rumsfeld up to the President" . . . Because PLENTY of Flag Grade Officers sure as hell
40 Gilligan : OMG, then 9 successive administrations must have lied through their teeth to us because I distinctly remember U.S. troops being in Germany, ready to
41 Falcon84 : Well, you then have at least some inkling as to what I've been feeling now since '03. I've felt, since before it was fought, that it wasn't right. An
42 Jetjack74 : So we just give up? No, it's not about making them like one another, it's about making them respect the rule of law. Their police force needs to beco
43 Klaus : It is a topic which is avoided like the plague whenever it is about confrontations with US troops. There are exceptions, but those are exceedingly ra
44 Jetjack74 : Because the press corps celebrates the casualties of US servicemen. That's why I don't read the papers, I wipe my ass with them.
45 Jaysit : We can't quit now!!!!!!!!!!!! We haven't killed all their leaders. And we haven't converted them all to Christianity. And then there's that issue of O
46 Post contains images ANCFlyer : I will grant you I rarely see any news on it when it involves US troop confrontations, probably a mere mention of how many insurgents were killed . .
47 Post contains images UH60FtRucker : Well damn, Jaysit... 45 posts and this thread was going so well... Hell! We even had Jetjack engaging in a honest, civil debate.   Have you been tak
48 Post contains links Halls120 : http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...le/2006/10/11/AR2006101100413.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...le/2006/10/11/AR2006101100221.html h
49 Post contains images Klaus : No, I don't claim that people didn't know - my impression is that it's actively avoided whenever possible. I noticed that too...!
50 Gilligan : Think about what you said in relation to Mission Accomplished.
51 Klaus : The troops stationed in Germany after 1945 can't be compared to the occupation troops in Iraq - the situations are fundamentally different.
52 Itsjustme : You're splitting hairs. The two are just as related as two football teams competing. Simply put, we won the first half but we're having our asses han
53 ME AVN FAN : But all this is mad ! I anyway imagine that the next US president will sell these long-term structures to the Iraqi armed forces. such things are sub
54 Halls120 : Really? Even after I pointed you to four lengthy articles on the subject that were printed on the front page over a two week period?
55 Klaus : You missed (and somewhat confirmed) my point: I was talking about iraqis dying as a result of american bombings or shots fired which don't seem to ex
56 Thetuna : What the hell are you talking about!!! He gave you four articles that ALL write about Iraqi civillans being killed. American Iraqi to Iraqi ect!!!!
57 Klaus : I was looking at the last one, which was only about internal iraqi deaths as far as I could see.
58 Melpax : With the events of the last few days (North Korea) I wonder how long before Dubya uses it as an excuse to reintroduce conscription..........
59 Bushpilot : Realistically this wont happen. I am torn over the idea personally. Every American male has to sign up for the selective services, which is the pool
60 JeffM : Remember the Korean War? Who sent us there? How many troops are STILL there 50+ years ago? 30,000+ 54,246 U.S. War deaths over 3 years. More than a m
61 ME AVN FAN : """ amid a wave of sectarian killings and insurgent attacks """ THAT exactly is THE problem with all such articles. Nothing is mentioned about any pe
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