Nkops From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2365 posts, RR: 7 Posted (5 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 748 times:
I was watching "Behind The Lines" today on ESPN, and they were talking about how Pat Tillman was killed by friendly fire, which of course, was covered up by the military for a while. So now they've opened a criminal investigation on the ones who fired upon him, and who covered up. While I think the cover-up should be punished, what about the guys who accidentally fired on him, what should happen to them, if anything (criminally speaking??)
AirCop From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 1, posted (5 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 711 times:
Sports Illustrated last month had a cover story on this very topic. Suggest that you wander down to your library, after reading it I was disgusted on how the Army handled the whole situtation from the very start when the vehicle broke down to after firefight and continues on today.
TedTAce From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 2, posted (5 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 689 times:
I knew I was going to regret opening this thread.
This is a story I wish would just go away. Not that I think Tillman's family deserves anything less then absolute justice, quite the contrary. This situation is why war is horrible and should be kept as public as making sausage. There will never be a 'fair' amount of justice for this case as everyone is loosing. I'd love to blame the Administration, the Army, and the person who shot him. The problem is that all the blame (even if accepted) will not bring back a TRUE American hero. The best we can hope for is that something like this never happens again and all steps possible are taken to prevent it.
BristolFlyer From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 1948 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (5 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 682 times:
Quoting TedTAce (Reply 2): The best we can hope for is that something like this never happens again and all steps possible are taken to prevent it.
And the best way to ensure it never happens again is to have a full investigation so lessons can be learned and the guilty parties (if there are any) made examples of. There's no point sweeping it under the carpet.
Jetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7136 posts, RR: 54 Reply 4, posted (5 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 660 times:
Quoting TedTAce (Reply 2): The best we can hope for is that something like this never happens again and all steps possible are taken to prevent it.
Absolutely, this is the unfortunate side that heroism brings. Unless we ourselves understand the circumstances that transpired that day, no one can sit in judgement. This wasn't a coldblood killing of Pat Tillman, it was a mistake made by his squadmates. The guilt felt by his fellow men and the triggerman is punishment enough, along as the investigation is complete.
PIA777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1736 posts, RR: 9 Reply 5, posted (5 years 3 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 608 times:
War is such a big joke in America. They try to turn everything into
a Hollywood production. They get these catch phrases like "Desert Storm",
"Desert Shield" and my favorite "Shock and Aw". That is so dumb.
Thats the way America likes it. They love making everything into
a hollywood movie.
ANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 6, posted (5 years 3 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 607 times:
Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 4): Quoting TedTAce (Reply 2):
The best we can hope for is that something like this never happens again and all steps possible are taken to prevent it.
Absolutely, this is the unfortunate side that heroism brings. Unless we ourselves understand the circumstances that transpired that day, no one can sit in judgement. This wasn't a coldblood killing of Pat Tillman, it was a mistake made by his squadmates. The guilt felt by his fellow men and the triggerman is punishment enough, along as the investigation is complete.
to both . . .
Quoting PIA777 (Reply 5): They get these catch phrases like "Desert Storm",
"Desert Shield"
Military actions have had Operational Names for Centuries . . . and not just in this country . . . so your commentary is either borne out ignorance or a desire to inflame - which one is it?
PIA777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1736 posts, RR: 9 Reply 7, posted (5 years 3 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 606 times:
Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 6): Military actions have had Operational Names for Centuries . . . and not just in this country . . . so your commentary is either borne out ignorance or a desire to inflame - which one is it?
So what you are saying is that everyone is very hollywood about war.
And all countries like America cover up the truth? This administration
has not told the truth about anything yet. People in America have no
clue about what happened in the real story behind the movie
"Black Hawk Down". America was made to look like heros but the real
Hero's were Pakistani's military. They saved the American's ass.
Pakistan also lost alot of people in the war. But you would not here
anything about it because it would not sell any tickets at the box office.
ANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 8, posted (5 years 3 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 604 times:
Quoting PIA777 (Reply 7): So what you are saying is that everyone is very hollywood about war.
Nooo, what I'm saying is that countries have been giving names to Military Operations for centuries, not just the United States and I asked you if your post was borne out of ignorance or designed to be inflammatory
I guess I know the answer . . . since you're babbling on and on completely off the topic of Pat Tillman . . . thanks for playing.
Falcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 9, posted (5 years 3 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 587 times:
Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 6): Military actions have had Operational Names for Centuries . . . and not just in this country . . . so your commentary is either borne out ignorance or a desire to inflame - which one is it?
I think he's referring to the fact that the politicians call the entire conflict by such Operational Names. To me, the Persian Gulf War in 1991 was just that, the Persian Gulf War, not "Operation Desert Storm". Just as today the War in Iraq, 1993-?, is just that, "The War In Iraq", not "Operation Iraqi Freedom".
Such names, in war, as you've correctly pointed out, were meant to signify individual operations-but NOT entire wars, ANC. You've had famous ones in the past like Barbarossa, Sea Lion, Overlord, Market Garden, etc, but they did not signify the entire war. That's what I have a problem with this modern use. A war is a war, not an "operation".
ANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 10, posted (5 years 3 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 579 times:
Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 9): Just as today the War in Iraq, 1993-?, is just that, "The War In Iraq", not "Operation Iraqi Freedom".
Understand your concept, I disagree with your response. Not where he was going at all . . .
As for Operation Names, they're on literally every operation. By the way Operation Iraqi Freedom is but one of the Operations ongoing in the Iraqi War my friend.
Others that encompass a very large scope: Operation Enduring Freedom. Within that Operation, are literally hundreds of other Operations.
Take the Persian Gulf War for example, this is an easy one for 'civilians'. There were Two Operations (overall) in the Persian Gulf War. Operation Desert Shield and Operation Desert Storm. Both rolled up into the persian Gulf War. More followed Desert Storm.
More examples: Operation Enduring Freedom in Afghanistan. . . here's but a few examples of military Operations subordinate to that one:
Anaconda, Athena, Apollo, Headstrong, Mountain Resolve, Mountain Viper, on and on.
It's not Hollywood, it's standard.
And the US isn't the only player in the Name the Operation game:
Israel: Operation Thunderbolt. The rescue at Entebbe.
Canada: Operation Harmony. Canada's contribution to the UN Peace Effort
South Africa: Operation Amphibian. South Africa's deployment to the Congo and Rwanda.
UK: Operation Corporate. British Liberation of the Falklands.
As but some quick examples.
Now, I said, it's been this way for a long time:
Operation Hush. The Operation Name for the planned allied invasion of Belgium in WW1.
MDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 11, posted (5 years 3 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 573 times:
Quoting PIA777 (Reply 7): People in America have no
clue about what happened in the real story behind the movie
"Black Hawk Down". America was made to look like heros but the real
Hero's were Pakistani's military. They saved the American's ass.
Psshh. I doubt most Americans even remember the battle of Mog, much less who played what role. But don't worry, those of us that know the details know exactly how helpful the Pakistanis were.
Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 9): To me, the Persian Gulf War in 1991 was just that, the Persian Gulf War, not "Operation Desert Storm".
You would be correct in that. Operation Desert Storm and Operation Desert Shield were phases of the first Gulf War. Neither are names for it. Just as Overlord and Market Garden were phases of WWII. BTW: To the Brits it's Operation Granby. An American phenomenon?
As for Operation Iraqi Freedom:
It's actually Operations:
Operation Peninsula Strike
Operation Desert Scorpion
Operation Scorpion Sting
Operation Spartan Scorpion
Operation Rifles Scorpion
Operation Sidewinder
Operation Soda Mountain
Operation Ivy Serpent
Operation Iron Bullet
Operation Tyr
Operation Ivy Lightning
Operation Silverado
Operation Ivy Needle
Operation Longstreet
Operation Tiger Clean Sweep
Operation Industrial Sweep
Operation Chamberlain
Operation Sweeney
Operation OK Corral
Operation Iron Hammer
Operation Eagle Curtain
Operation All American Tiger
Operation Ivy Cyclone
Operation Ivy Cyclone II
Operation Boothill
Operation Rifles Blitz
Operation Rifle Sweep
Operation Bayonet Lightning
Operation Bulldog Mammoth
Operation Clear Area
Operation Abilene
Operation Panther Squeeze
Operation Panther Backroads
Operation Ivy Blizzard
Operation Arrowhead Blizzard
Operation Iron Justice
Operation Rifles Fury
Operation Salm
Operation Devil Siphon
Operation Iron Grip
Operation Iron Force
Operation Choke Hold
Operation Warhorse Whirlwind
Operation Iron Resolve
Operation Market Sweep
Operation Saloon
Operation Rock Slide
Operation Final Cut
Operation Saber Turner II
Operation Tomahawk
Operation Trailblazer
Operation Eagle Liberty 3
Operation Devil Clinch
Operation Rocketman
Operation Iron Promise
Operation Shillelagh
Operation Devil Thrust
Operation Aloha
Operation Centaur Rodeo
Operation Warrior
Operation Suicide Kings
Operation Tiger Fury
Operation Iron Saber
Operation Duke Fortitude
Operation Lancer Fury
Operation Lancer Lightning
Operation Vigilant Resolve
Operation Resolute Sword
Operation Danger Fortitude
Operation Ripper Sweep
Operation Yellow Stone
Operation Rapier Thrust
Operation Spring Clean-up
Operation Striker Hurricane
Operation Wolfpack Crunch
Operation Disarm
Operation Giuliani
Operation Slim Shady
Operation Striker Tornado
Operation Rocketman III
Operation Dragon Victory
Operation Gimlet Crusader
As for the Tillman affair. An investigative inquiry is always helpful to help prevent future occurrences, but exempting actual criminally homicidal intent I don't see any purpose in bringing charges.
Falcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 12, posted (5 years 3 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 566 times:
Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 10): By the way Operation Iraqi Freedom is but one of the Operations ongoing in the Iraqi War my friend.
That may be, but Mr. Bush and friends only refer to the conflict, if they do so formally, by that name. And that's not correct. It's "The Iraq War". Just like many people still call the Persian Gulf War "Desert Storm".
I think it trivializes, to those not involved on the ground in the conflict, as to what is going on. It's like when they called Korea a "Police Action", which no on really bought. Call it like it is. I know most Americans can handle it.
ANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 13, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 533 times:
Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 12): That may be, but Mr. Bush and friends only refer to the conflict, if they do so formally, by that name.
Sure, just like most people. Ask the military how they refer to it . . . most will say, I'd venture to guess, OIF. Unless talking to a civilian, in which case, The Iraqi War will suffice, since most civilians haven't a clue about military operations anyway. Don't want to confuse them any more than they already are.
Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 12): Just like many people still call the Persian Gulf War "Desert Storm".
Same answer as above.
Do you think if you stopped any group of fifteen people outside any given department store in Cleveland - or asked the next 20 pax you see at CLE - what the official operation name for "the Iraqi War" any of them would get it right?
Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 12): I think it trivializes, to those not involved on the ground in the conflict, as to what is going on.
How so? By the by, the Operation Names include all forces; air, ground and water. So I don't understand your reference to people "not involved on the ground conflict".
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