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Justice For A Drunk Driver  
User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 2603 times:

Well, it's about time Drunk Drivers got hammered hard and heavy in this country.

Excellent job by the Prosecutor, the Jury and the Judge.


http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/10/18/wedding.crash.ap/index.html

A jury convicted a man on Tuesday of murder for driving drunk the wrong way on a highway, slamming head-on into a wedding limousine and killing the chauffeur and a 7-year-old flower girl.

had at least 14 drinks before getting behind the wheel; his blood-alcohol level, 0.28, was more than three times the 0.08 legal limit in New York state, prosecutors said.



For anyone that doesn't know, not only was the 7 year old killed, she was decapitated . . .

[Edited 2006-10-19 06:59:52]

83 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAC773 From Canada, joined Nov 2005, 1730 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 2599 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Thread starter):
Well, it's about time Drunk Drivers got hammered hard and heavy in this country.

Uh, I think they've always been hammered and heavy.

That's why they're called drunk drivers!  Wink



Better to be nouveau than never to have been riche at all.
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26414 posts, RR: 76
Reply 2, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 2586 times:

While what he did was inexcusable and reprehensible, that judge had no business allowing the charge to even be made available to the jury. It is incredibly sad how the little girl died, but convicting someone of murder requires intent, which you can't find here no matter how much you mince words, and a life sentence just isn't justified. I think the second degree manslaughter charge would have been more than enough and would be much more likely to stick on appeal, where this case is almost surely headed. I actually saw a story some time ago on how a judge ordered that in lieu of extended jail time, a guy who killed a little girl in a similar manner was forced to write a weekly check for something like $1 or $10 to her family for something like 2 years so he would keep what he had done on his conscience.


Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineAC773 From Canada, joined Nov 2005, 1730 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 2581 times:

Back to the topic at hand, what a terrible thing to have happened. Most things don't phaze me anymore, but quite frankly I'd have been pretty steamed if I heard about that and the judge had given the guy some lenient sentence.

May the chauffer and the little girl RIP. And for all the shock and sorrow the families must be going through, at least they know that someone was held accountable.



Better to be nouveau than never to have been riche at all.
User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 2570 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 2):
While what he did was inexcusable and reprehensible, that judge had no business allowing the charge to even be made available to the jury.

Opinion.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 2):
and a life sentence just isn't justified

Yes, it is.

In Kentucky in 1988, a church bus was hit by a drunk driver - going the wrong way on an interstate. 27 people burned to death. I knew a dozen of them (through the military, not the church). The piece of shit driving drunk got 16 years and was out in 10. That was his FIFTH drunk driving conviction. He should have been sent away forever . . .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrollton_bus_disaster

Alas the bleeding hearts are always there to feign compassion . . . as long as it's not their family laying there dead.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 2):
a guy who killed a little girl in a similar manner was forced to write a weekly check for something like $1 or $10 to her family for something like 2 years so he would keep what he had done on his conscience.

Preposterous. Let the bastard rot in jail . . . I bet every day he wakes up looking at that 6 X 10 block walled room of his, he'd remember.

EDIT: Typo

[Edited 2006-10-19 07:55:52]

User currently offlineJetsGo From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 3082 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 2565 times:

That is excellent news. I am sick and tired of the weak drunk driving laws this country has. Hopefully this will set a new trend. And yes it is murder because he knew he was drinking, and yet at 25 years of age, he failed to figure out that he shouldn't be driving.


Chris



Marine Corps Aviation, The Last To Let You Down!
User currently offlineJpetekYXMD80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 4383 posts, RR: 29
Reply 6, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 2565 times:

Interesting verdict... I wouldn't have expected this outcome for reasons N1120A has stated, but feel that maybe it ought to be this way. In DUI cases of extreme severity or sickening repeated offense, why shouldn't it be called murder?

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 4):

Alas the bleeding hearts are always there to feign compassion . . . as long as it's not their family laying there dead.

Agree to an extent, thinking thats all too true.



The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
User currently offlineNeilYYZ From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 2562 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Thread starter):
Well, it's about time Drunk Drivers got hammered hard and heavy in this country.

No doubt. Too bad every judge and prosecuter couldn't handle case's of drunk driving in this manner.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 2):
I actually saw a story some time ago on how a judge ordered that in lieu of extended jail time, a guy who killed a little girl in a similar manner was forced to write a weekly check for something like $1 or $10 to her family for something like 2 years so he would keep what he had done on his conscience.

He got off easy, it's not his conscience that I'm worried about, it's him being out on the roads, I bet that he'd remember just as well if his butt was in the slammer for an extended period of time. I'd love it if some country would adopt the three strikes rule with drunk drivers. Three convictions, kiss your life away.


User currently offlineJetsGo From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 3082 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 2553 times:

Quoting NeilYYZ (Reply 7):
three strikes rule with drunk drivers. Three convictions, kiss your life away.

Hell, with drunk driving, it needs to be two strikes. You get your one gimmie, and then if you continue to drink after that, you are done. Anyone that is convicted of a second DUI is completely useless to this world. They are an endangerment not only themselves, but others as well. And not only to they pose this danger, but they just dont care that they do. Furthermore, with a second conviction, you can bet your bottom dollar that there would be more to come. These people just do not get it.


Chris



Marine Corps Aviation, The Last To Let You Down!
User currently offlineDavestanKSAN From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 1678 posts, RR: 13
Reply 9, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 2553 times:

 ashamed   Sad

I'm with you on this one ANC.

There is really no excuse for drunk driving. And it always seems like the drunk walks away unharmed and the innocent victim(s) they hit get injured or dies.

I can't imagine what that mother has/is going through. Good God that's terrible what she had to witness.

RIP to the little girl and the chauffeur. Thoughts with their loved ones.

Dave



Yesterday we've sinned, today we move towards God. Touch the sky....love and respect...Safe Star!
User currently offlineNeilYYZ From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 2553 times:

Quoting JetsGo (Reply 8):
Furthermore, with a second conviction, you can bet your bottom dollar that there would be more to come. These people just do not get it.

Oh I'd love the two strikes and you're out, although after the first, I think you should be banned from driving for life, however, that won't happen. And I doubt that people would go for two strikes, or three for that matter. As far as I'm concerned, if you cause a fatal accident when you're drunk, it should be treated like first degree murder, you knew you were drinking, and everyone gets to a point where they know that they're at the limit of when they can drive, if the decide to keep drinking and still drive, I call that intent.


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26414 posts, RR: 76
Reply 11, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 2543 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 4):
The piece of shit driving drunk got 16 years and was out in 10. That was his FIFTH drunk driving conviction. He should have been sent away forever . . .

Again, that is not how the law works, nor how the statutes behind murder are written. Here is the applicable New York State statute.

§ 125.25. Murder in the second degree

A person is guilty of murder in the second degree when:

1. With intent to cause the death of another person, he causes the death of such person or of a third person

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 4):
Preposterous. Let the bastard rot in jail . .

Sure, but 25 to life was the wrong sentence

Quoting JpetekYXMD80 (Reply 6):
I wouldn't have expected this outcome for reasons N1120A has stated, but feel that maybe it ought to be this way. In DUI cases of extreme severity or sickening repeated offense, why shouldn't it be called murder?

If you think about it, DUI is DUI and killing someone because you are driving drunk is the same whether it is a 7 year old girl who is decapitated in a limo or a 50 year old man who you hit in the street and dies of internal injuries.

The reason it shouldn't be called murder is because murder has a specific definition in the State of New York, the MPC and all the other various state and federal jurisdictions. Murder is with intent, manslaughter doesn't require intent.

Quoting NeilYYZ (Reply 7):
I'd love it if some country would adopt the three strikes rule with drunk drivers.

So we can clog the prison system more? If someone hit someone with a car three times in a three strikes state, it is quite likely that it would trigger said provisions.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineJetsGo From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 3082 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 2529 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 11):
. With intent to cause the death of another person, he causes the death of such person or of a third person

At 25 years of age, this man knew his limit. He has been of age for 4 years now. He continued to drink though. Then, he took it to the next level and got into a car. After 14 drinks! I'm sorry, but this is intent.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 11):
Sure, but 25 to life was the wrong sentence

Wrong sentence as in it does not guarentee a well needed life sentence. He killed with intent.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 11):
So we can clog the prison system more? If someone hit someone with a car three times in a three strikes state, it is quite likely that it would trigger said provisions.

Are you suggesting that we should not jail the convicted DUI because there are not enough prison cells? Surely we must build more prisons instead...Also, there is a difference betwen just "hitting a car three times," and doing it while drunk. Accident vs. intent.


Chris



Marine Corps Aviation, The Last To Let You Down!
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26414 posts, RR: 76
Reply 13, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 2527 times:

Quoting JetsGo (Reply 12):
I'm sorry, but this is intent.

No it isn't. It doesn't matter how much it raises your ire, it doesn't follow the legal definition of intent.

Quoting JetsGo (Reply 12):
He killed with intent.

No, he got drunk and f'ed up worse than he could ever imagine, and should be punished for that. He didn't go out there and say "ok, I am going to go kill someone now"

Quoting JetsGo (Reply 12):


Are you suggesting that we should not jail the convicted DUI because there are not enough prison cells?

No, I am saying we shouldn't be throwing them in jail for life because of an obvious mental illness



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 2524 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 11):
Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 4):
The piece of shit driving drunk got 16 years and was out in 10. That was his FIFTH drunk driving conviction. He should have been sent away forever . . .

Again, that is not how the law works, nor how the statutes behind murder are written. Here is the applicable New York State statute.

§ 125.25. Murder in the second degree

A person is guilty of murder in the second degree when:

1. With intent to cause the death of another person, he causes the death of such person or of a third person

Alaska Statute: AS11.41.110: Murder 2.

(2) Person knowingly engages in conduct that results in the death of another person under circumstances manifesting an extreme indifference to the value of human life.

or

(5) the person with criminal negligence causes the death of a child under the age of 16 and the person has been previously convicted of a crime involving a child under the age of 16 that was a) a felony violation of AS 11.41; b) a violation of a law of ordinance in another jurisdiction with elements similar to AS 11.41 or c) an attempt, a solicitation or a conspiracy to commit a crime in a or b above.

The charge would stick in Alaska. There is no allowance for "intent" in Murder 2 here. It is present in Murder 1.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 11):
Sure, but 25 to life was the wrong sentence

Opinion.


User currently offlineNeilYYZ From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 2516 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 11):
So we can clog the prison system more? If someone hit someone with a car three times in a three strikes state, it is quite likely that it would trigger said provisions.

The point wouldn't be to clog the prison system more, although I won't deny that it would definatly have that effect.

And yes, if you were drunk and hit a car three times, my issue is not with the damage to the car, it's with the danger that you pose, just because you got lucky three times does not mean, in my opinion, that your penalty should be less. On the same hand, I'm one of those that think that attempted murder is the same thing as murder, you clearly have the capacity to put society at risk, I don't think that mistakes in execution justify smaller sentences.


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21552 posts, RR: 55
Reply 16, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 2512 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 13):
He didn't go out there and say "ok, I am going to go kill someone now"

But what he did say was "I'm going to willingly put myself in a position where the likelihood of me killing somone is greatly increased, and I'm ok with doing that."

I'm not sold on the murder charge, but I'd rather see that than have him get off lightly. This was not a pure accident - the guy knew that he was going to be endangering others on a scale far above the normal risk of being on the road, and yet he chose to drive anyway. It's stupidity, and the unfortunate fact is that unless people are made examples of, people are never going to learn that drunk driving is a very serious matter.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26414 posts, RR: 76
Reply 17, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 2506 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 14):
There is no allowance for "intent" in Murder 2 here

Actually, under AS 11.41.110 (a)(1), there is an intent requirement.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 14):
(5) the person with criminal negligence causes the death of a child under the age of 16 and the person has been previously convicted of a crime involving a child under the age of 16 that was a) a felony violation of AS 11.41; b) a violation of a law of ordinance in another jurisdiction with elements similar to AS 11.41 or c) an attempt, a solicitation or a conspiracy to commit a crime in a or b above.

He would have had to be previously convicted of killing a child under 16

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 14):
(2) Person knowingly engages in conduct that results in the death of another person under circumstances manifesting an extreme indifference to the value of human life.

Under sub paragraph (2), they do create a grey area which the Alaska courts have recognized as muddying the line between involuntary manslaughter and second degree murder. Under Jefries, the Court of Appeals of Alaska found that DUI/DWI could be combined with several other factors to meet the "knowingly engages in conduct" prong, though it did say that the State had to raise these points in court. Needless to say, it would be a much easier argument in Alaska to say that he should be convicted of Murder 2 under the law, but the New York law very specifically mentions intent.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26414 posts, RR: 76
Reply 18, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 2496 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 16):
But what he did say was "I'm going to willingly put myself in a position where the likelihood of me killing somone is greatly increased, and I'm ok with doing that."

Then he is guilty of manslaughter, or in the case of the MPC, he is guilty of reckless and/or negligent homicide. Being an idiot does not mean you intend on killing someone and murder in New York requires that.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 2491 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 17):
Actually, under AS 11.41.110 (a)(1), there is an intent requirement.

Check, I see that now, I sit corrected, however - I believe, my opinion of course, that some schmuck that is on his 3rd, 4th, 5th, DWI/DUI is intent on driving drunk. It's not as if it's an accident. It shows intent to disregard the law. It shows intent to drive whenever one feels the need. It shows intent to disregard human life. It shows intent to put other people in jeopardy. A decent prosecutor could win that . . . handily.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 17):
Needless to say, it would be a much easier argument in Alaska to say that he should be convicted of Murder 2 under the law, but the New York law very specifically mentions intent.

  

Guess we don't have as many bleeding hearts here as NY?   

[Edited 2006-10-19 08:56:36]

User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13073 posts, RR: 12
Reply 20, posted (7 years 10 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2444 times:

It shouldn't be so much about Justice for a Drunk Driver, but rather Justice for their victim's families. I would suspect that this Defendant will appeal his sentence and may win on appeal a requirement to be re-sentenced to the usual jail term.
Most states usually only charge vehicular manslaughter under the influence, and the usual jail term is about 2 years for 1 death. That is not enough in any case, including where multiple deaths and/or if under high level drunk driving (ie, drunk at 2x or more the limit). Many countries have much lower levels to qualify as drunk driving and generally have much more severe penalties for drunk driving itself especially if one kills or seriously injures someone while drunk driving.
Short jail terms may be a sufficient deterrent for most drivers, but they should be a lot higher such as 10-15 years for 1 death or very serious injury (paralyzed, severe brain damage) with more time for multiple deaths.


User currently offlineJRadier From Netherlands, joined Sep 2004, 4676 posts, RR: 50
Reply 21, posted (7 years 10 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2400 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 2):
a life sentence just isn't justified.

Ok, so you volunteraly get pissed (his choice) knowing the concequences of alcohol use and accepting them. He knowingly got drunk and thus accepted the concequences of his actions. He then got into a car (wich was illegal) and drove on the wrong side of the highway.

He CHOSE to drink alcohol thus knowingly (maybe not at the moment, but by drinking he (should have) knew that he couldn't drive anymore and thus knowingly endangered the other motorists. Again, because he was knowingly under influence he slammed into the limo and thus is accountable for knowingly killing those people. It wasn't manslaughter because he knew what the concequences of his actions (drinking) were.



For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (7 years 10 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2397 times:

A good precedent to set in my opinion.

User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (7 years 10 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 2373 times:

Establishment of intent:

"They contended Heidgen never tried to stop and turned slightly toward the limousine in the seconds before the crash."

There you go.

Why else do you turn towards an oncoming car unless you intend to hit it? What is the logical consequence of striking another vehicle head on, on a highway? Whether or not he actually had the mental capacity to intend fatal harm is completely irrelevant as long as you get the jury to believe he was acting with lethal intent.


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26414 posts, RR: 76
Reply 24, posted (7 years 10 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 2362 times:

Quoting JRadier (Reply 21):
Ok, so you volunteraly get pissed (his choice) knowing the concequences of alcohol use and accepting them. He knowingly got drunk and thus accepted the concequences of his actions. He then got into a car (wich was illegal) and drove on the wrong side of the highway.

He CHOSE to drink alcohol thus knowingly (maybe not at the moment, but by drinking he (should have) knew that he couldn't drive anymore and thus knowingly endangered the other motorists. Again, because he was knowingly under influence he slammed into the limo and thus is accountable for knowingly killing those people. It wasn't manslaughter because he knew what the concequences of his actions (drinking) were.

Yes, he knowingly drank and recklessly still drove. That means he meets the requirements for manslaughter, not murder.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 23):

"They contended Heidgen never tried to stop and turned slightly toward the limousine in the seconds before the crash."

That is ridiculously thin.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
25 IFEMaster : ANCFlyer - thanks for posting this. In my opinion, there shouldn't even be a two-strikes rule. It should be one chance and that's all you get. Anyone
26 N1120A : I am not defending anyone. The point is, they didn't follow the law.
27 MDorBust : Video is amazingly compelling to a jury. You may think it was thin, but apparently the defense team couldn't shake it.
28 N1120A : Which is why appeals courts exist. The Judge erred in even allowing them the murder option.
29 F9Animal : DUI is not an accident. When one dies at the hand of someone drunk, it should be a very serious offense. Regardless if the drunk had not intended on
30 N1120A : Manslaughter is a very serious offense and would have brought him 15 years in jail. So in your world, he should get the needle in New York. The legal
31 F9Animal : 15 years is nothing for his actions. Serious would be life. The needle would be very sufficent. 2 lives taken. N1120A, I have a few questions for you
32 Falstaff : You can have all the laws in the world and they are useless if people don't follow them. I had a student brag to me the other day he will kill anyone
33 F9Animal : Lets just say that you do get caught. But, you get into a wreck and kill someone. Do you accept the fact that you could possibly face murder charges?
34 Atrude777 : Defense attorney Stephen LaMagna complained that prosecutors held Heidgen to the "same standard as a cold-blooded murderer" but insisted, "this is a k
35 N1120A : 15 years means he will be 40 years old when he gets out of jail, having completely missed his prime. Not to mention carrying around the stygma of bei
36 MDorBust : If the prosecution can demonstrate intent, then the judge should absolutely allow the charge. It's up to the prosecution to prove their charge, which
37 N1120A : I actually missed that in my reading of the New York Code, and I appologise. Still, the term grave risk in the statute is defined by the Commission t
38 N1120A : And in People v. Lazartes, this was specifically distinguished by saying that a single factor (such as driving drunk) is not enough to prove extreme i
39 Post contains links MDorBust : I suggest you review, People v Esposito (216 AD2d 317 [1995]), and People v Keating (283 AD2d 589 [2001]). Both cases involve Murder 2 intoxication co
40 Post contains links UALPHLCS : http://criminal.findlaw.com/crimes/a-z/murder_second_degree.html Second-degree murder is ordinarily defined as 1) an intentional killing that is not
41 Post contains links TedTAce : Sounds like she was ironically 'properly restrained'.* Here is a video as cited in the article: http://www.ogrish.com/archives/2006/...dot-com-drunk_
42 N1120A : And street racing isn't relevant? If anything, he is MORE aware of what he is doing. He can't Don't even think of trying to lecture me. I am more tha
43 UALPHLCS : When your wrong I will tell you your wrong whenever and however I feel like it. Your ignorance and arrogance shows in every post you write.
44 Post contains images TedTAce : Who said anything about the state giving it to him?
45 Falstaff : No reason to apologize, it is a good question. If I would kill someone in an accident, drinking or not, I would have to face the consequences. In Mic
46 GuitrThree : Ok.. N1120A, then let's look at this another way. The 9/11 terrorists who hijacked the planes, had plans to take aircraft and fly them into towers. N
47 AirCop : You be surprised. Way back in 1984 Time magazine ran an opinon piece written by a defense attorney that continued to defend drunk drivers even though
48 QR332 : I'm with ANC on this one... drunk drivers deserve all that comes their way, they cause nothing but misery to their victims, and they should know their
49 NIKV69 : Heard something very disheartening about this. First of all this happened where I live and the Principal of this girls school was a member at the club
50 Sovietjet : My friend once took me to a secluded empty parking lot late at night and let me drive his car around the lot while I was drunk, so that I can see what
51 FSPilot747 : Not only is it murder, it is premeditated murder. He knew what he was doing before he got behind the wheel and before he drank his drinks. It's about
52 Post contains images Halls120 : What provision of New York law did the judge violate? If you can't cite any, it's just your opinion that the judge erred. I see you are in the "let's
53 Post contains images Halls120 : What provision of New York law did the judge violate? If you can't cite any, it's just your opinion that the judge erred. I see you are in the "let's
54 Lucky42 : You need to be very careful using that term of pre-meditated. Because you will see DUI sentences handed down that exceed that of actual murderers. I
55 777ER : That info is a bit too much. The piece of s**t deserves life in jail for the seriousness of the crime. How would you feel if someone you loved was mu
56 57AZ : Here in Arizona, it is possible that the crime could be prosecuted as second degree murder. Under the Arizona Revised Statutes, there is no requiremen
57 Halls120 : Glad to see that Arizona legislators have recognized the danger than drunk drivers pose. Hard to fathom any jury not returning a verdict of second de
58 57AZ : Both the legislators and law enforcement agencies have taken a very hard stand against intoxicated drivers. There are too many criminal cases that co
59 Gregtx : It's a terrible tragedy. However, the verdict will be overturned on appeal--or thrown out by a higher court. Likely not what folks like to hear---but
60 Itsjustme : What a fine example of a criminal defense attorney you are. And had you been defending the piece of shit who killed these two people, after seeing yo
61 FSPilot747 : You're right. Legally it isn't. But on a personal level, I think that someone who drinks heavily and gets into a car is aware that there is a good ch
62 Halls120 : Please don't give him credit he doesn't deserve. N1120A is a law student, not a licensed attorney. Most likely.
63 Itsjustme : Sorry. I misread his profile.
64 MDorBust : Please read the case you quoted. His awareness is exactly why the charge was overturned. It's hard to substantiate depraved indifference when a perso
65 Halls120 : You didn't misread his profile. He's just engaged in a manifest exaggeration of his abilities and experience. "rule XX Criminal Defense attorney" mea
66 Gregtx : We pulled up previous case law and two other murder convictions in drunk driving (appeals pending) and four others where it was reversed or sentences
67 UALPHLCS : Sounds like more of the same tactics for N1120A.
68 NIKV69 : OMG just found the dash cam video of this accident. I am sorry I watched it. So bad. Also read that the deliberations were very heated throughtout. Th
69 TedTAce : " target=_blank>http://www.ogrish.com/archives/2006/...o.wmv 27 replies is not too bad. The video is not bad in the sense of seeing the people or gore
70 Post contains images NIKV69 : Thanks as usual Ted. Well you don't have to live in this area or even know what happened to realize that video is horrible. Thanks again though for g
71 TedTAce : Actually, she was giving your wife a pity lay.
72 Post contains images NIKV69 : That would be a stretch seeing I don't have a wife.
73 Post contains images TedTAce : Well excuse me for giving you that much credit.
74 Madairdrie : Because everyone deserves a fair trail with a defense lawyer. I once was speaking to a defense lawyer and asked him how he can defend someone who he
75 Post contains images Allstarflyer : With how aware our society is of the dangers of drunk driving, this is an understatement . . . So, with our society being so aware, to get drunk - by
76 Itsjustme : That was a rhetorical question. Of course everyone is entitled to a fair trial and someone must defend the accused, even when they're charged with co
77 Cfalk : He intended to drink, and then drink again, and again, knowing that he would have to get into his car and drive. The fact that drunk driving kills ha
78 777ER : Its good that video doesn't include the screams of pain after the accident
79 CasInterest : I don't know, this sets an interesting precident.... Murder requires intent. Can we prove intent if a bad driver (cellphone , distracted.. smoking?) k
80 Cfalk : If the impairment is known to dramatically reduce your ability to control a car and is predictable and voluntary in nature, then yes, I think. Smokin
81 FlyDeltaJets87 : N1120A, I would find this punishment incredibly INSULTING if it was my child that had been killed. A measly $52 (or $520 at best) would be a slap in
82 Luv2fly : Surprising how vocal some people where on this thread and now have become oh so quiet!
83 Post contains links CF188A : The video of this slaughter is on http://www.ogrish.com/archives/drunk..._guilty_of_murder_Oct_18_2006.html . Seeing that car hit the other really jus
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