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At What Price Do You Give Up Your Freedoms?  
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (8 years 2 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2128 times:

If a scientific poll came out in the U.S., and said the surest path to peace would be for the entire nation to convert to Islam, follow strict Sharia Law, and to give up all of our freedoms-if the press, of religion, of dissent, would you do it to save American lives.

I ask everyone to wait till one user responds.

Turnabout is fair play.

19 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineQR332 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (8 years 2 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2118 times:

You forgot the ten edits.

[Edited 2006-10-19 14:42:00]
[Edited 2006-10-19 14:42:01]
[Edited 2006-10-19 14:42:02]
[Edited 2006-10-19 14:42:03]
[Edited 2006-10-19 14:42:04]
[Edited 2006-10-19 14:42:05]
[Edited 2006-10-19 14:42:06]

[Edited 2006-10-19 14:43:07]

User currently offlineNosedive From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (8 years 2 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2104 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
would you do it to save American lives.

Suddenly, Canada faces an immigration problem.  sarcastic  Seriously, as stubborn as people in this country are, do this think this could ever even happen Falcon?


User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (8 years 2 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2095 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
would you do it

Hell No.

Simple as that.

Never happen anyway . . .

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
I ask everyone to wait till one user responds.

 scratchchin  WTF is this supposed to mean Falcon? Maybe cause I been up all night, but this doesn't make sense to me . . .


User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (8 years 2 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2089 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 3):
WTF is this supposed to mean Falcon?

An obvious reference to a certain verbose poster.
Except Falcon is being to kind to directly name him
Really you should understand.
Or has the temperature slowed your thinking down?
Surely you can figure it out.
Possibly a clue would set you on the right path
Although, I must really say that I'm disappointed you didn't see the thrust of his jab.
Considering the volume of posting, I would have thought you would get it
Enough of my silly prattling, I'm starting to be infected the desire to post endlessly.
For future reference, I'm not going to do something like this ever again
And to finally answer the question...
No, hell no.


User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (8 years 2 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2086 times:

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 4):

 rotfl 

As was this:

Quoting QR332 (Reply 1):


[Edited 2006-10-19 14:42:00]
[Edited 2006-10-19 14:42:01]
[Edited 2006-10-19 14:42:02]
[Edited 2006-10-19 14:42:03]
[Edited 2006-10-19 14:42:04]
[Edited 2006-10-19 14:42:05]
[Edited 2006-10-19 14:42:06]

 rotfl 


User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (8 years 2 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2073 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
If a scientific poll came out in the U.S., and said the surest path to peace would be for the entire nation to convert to Islam, follow strict Sharia Law, and to give up all of our freedoms-if the press, of religion, of dissent, would you do it to save American lives.

Actually, if I had posed it, since we all know that I'm being parodied here, the question would have been as follows:

HOW MUCH DO YOU CARE ABOUT THE AMERICAN WAY OF LIFE?

If a scientific poll came out tomorrow conclusively showing that the imposition of Sharia law in the United States would make it less likely for our foreign enemies to be inspired to injure or kill Americans, would this affect your evaluation of the merits or proper means of maintaining our way of life?

Thanks in advance for your considered answers.


And my answer to that question would be, "Yes, it would." Because it's always of interest if the safety of Americans is at issue.

The evaluation of this poll would be a factor in an objective consideration of the merits of Americanism.

Arrayed against this consideration would be the question of whether other considerations, including the traditions of this country, for example, would be served, and whether I would in good conscience believe that other Americans would be willing to submit to a new form of existence for the sake of lessening the threat to their lives.

My evaluation of all relevant factors would produce an answer that I thought was correct, which would be that since most Americans would defend our way of life regardless of the heightened risk, I would take the position that our way of life should be maintained.

I think that this is a reasonable way to address the hypothetical that takes into consideration a balance of conscience, historical reality, and the will of the people as I believe them to be.

Note that in the discussion of this hypothetical, a premium was placed on rational discourse, and no offense was taken at all that it was posited. That, I would venture, is part of the quintessence of informed debate, and I have tried to achieve it. It was the least I could do.

[Edited 2006-10-19 15:37:45]

User currently offlineMandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6966 posts, RR: 76
Reply 7, posted (8 years 2 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2067 times:

My personal answer: No...

Mandala499



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (8 years 2 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2061 times:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 6):
And my answer to that question would be, "Yes, it would." Because it's always of interest if the safety of Americans is at issue.

Then, in my view, you forfeit your right to be an American. If such a poll came out, in my mind it would mean one thing-fight to the death to defend our way of life, instead of giving into a foreign and alien, subjugating, tyrannical way of life. Again, I'd take death over ever submitting to such a brutal system.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 6):
The evaluation of this poll would be a factor in an objective consideration of the merits of Americanism.

Such big words. Answer the damn question, would you? Stop hiding behind such gobbeldy-gook.

I, again, would never surrender the basic tennants of life in this country. Freedom and liberty for me, and my posterity, are more precious than life itself in this case.

It would mean "us or them", in this case. I would not submit to such a way of live, ever.


User currently offlineNeilYYZ From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (8 years 2 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2052 times:

Even though I'm not American, I hope you'd all say not a chance. That's what I'd say if they asked that of Canada.

User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (8 years 2 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2049 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 8):
Then, in my view, you forfeit your right to be an American. If such a poll came out, in my mind it would mean one thing-fight to the death to defend our way of life, instead of giving into a foreign and alien, subjugating, tyrannical way of life. Again, I'd take death over ever submitting to such a brutal system.

I think you're misconstruing my answer. The question is whether one should consider the scientific poll as a factor. I think that anyone would be well-advised to consider all the facts before plunging headlong into a conclusion that seems to take the form of, "I don't care about the facts; I'm interested in only what I'm interested in." Don't you see that the latter attitude is rather irrational?

In fact, it seems to me that the attitude behind the rather baseless conclusion, "...then you forfeit your right to be an American" is precisely that which that is criticized by liberals and leftists when conservatives use it for their own purposes.

Examples:

"If you don't support America's efforts around the world, you forfeit your right to be an American."

"If you don't support our soldiers, you forfeit your right to be an American."

"If you don't agree with the results of the election, you forfeit your right to be an American."

Presumably, you would disagree with all three of my examples. If so, then why in blazes should anyone agree with you that if I consider the results of a poll in my thinking, and consider the merits and demerits of various courses of action, I should forfeit anything at all?

Principled thinking is at the core of rationality. In fact, rationality means measured thought, and measurement exists beyond the dictates of prejudice or passion. It seems to me that your "YOU ARE NOT AMERICAN" mode of thought is anything but rational, and it partakes of the ideological cant for which the left condemns the radical right.

Either you stand for rational thought, or you do not. Your criticism, in this respect, gives others the right to say, with equally paltry rationalism, that you and other Bush critics are un-American. If so, in your accusation, you have lost whatever ground you once had upon which to defend any criticism of our policy and our goals. You are free to dispense with rationality, but by so doing, you prove that your argument is no better than those you would criticize. This consequences of this method of argument would then be a price of freedom (of argument), ironically, whose magnitude is exceeded only by its futility.

[Edited 2006-10-19 15:50:09]

User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (8 years 2 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2035 times:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 6):
[Edited 2006-10-19 15:37:45]



Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 10):
[Edited 2006-10-19 15:50:09]

 rotfl 


User currently offlineTedTAce From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (8 years 2 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 2004 times:

Quoting QR332 (Reply 1):
You forgot the ten edits.

[Edited 2006-10-19 14:42:00]
[Edited 2006-10-19 14:42:01]
[Edited 2006-10-19 14:42:02]
[Edited 2006-10-19 14:42:03]
[Edited 2006-10-19 14:42:04]
[Edited 2006-10-19 14:42:05]
[Edited 2006-10-19 14:42:06]

[Edited 2006-10-19 14:43:07]

BRILLIANT!!!

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 3):
WTF is this supposed to mean Falcon? Maybe cause I been up all night, but this doesn't make sense to me . . .

Not So Brilliant..

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 5):

Ahh the coffee finally kicked in eh?


I move that we deport AerospaceFan to Iran. Those in favor?


User currently offlineBigOrange From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 2375 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (8 years 2 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 1966 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
If a scientific poll came out in the U.S., and said the surest path to peace would be for the entire nation to convert to Islam, follow strict Sharia Law, and to give up all of our freedoms-if the press, of religion, of dissent, would you do it to save American lives.

Of course not. There's no way I'll ever roll over and play dead so that scum can get their way. If such a law was ever passed, I'd be on the first flight out so a sane country!


User currently offlineScamp From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 533 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (8 years 2 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 1954 times:

Not a bloody chance in hell. My most important freedom is the freedom to tell people that because I don't agree with:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 10):
"If you don't support America's efforts around the world, you forfeit your right to be an American."

"If you don't support our soldiers, you forfeit your right to be an American."

"If you don't agree with the results of the election, you forfeit your right to be an American."

and, of course the ever popular "Why do you hate America?" to go fuck themselves with a barbed wire dildo coated with lemon juice.

There...I feel better now!



If it pisses off the right, I'm all for it.
User currently offlineAndesSMF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (8 years 2 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 1954 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
and said the surest path to peace would be for the entire nation to convert to Islam,

There are videos out there where this is exactly what is said, BTW. But this applies to the entire world.

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
would you do it to save American lives.

There are numerous examples of people proposing that doing nothing saves American lives. This question should also be directed at them.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 8):
instead of giving into a foreign and alien, subjugating, tyrannical way of life

But as a turnabout, letting the people who want this type of government have a free rein in other parts of the world will in the future increase their power, which is not in our best interest.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 8):
Freedom and liberty for me, and my posterity, are more precious than life itself in this case.

 checkmark 

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 8):

It would mean "us or them", in this case.

Now you are starting to sound like GWB!


User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (8 years 2 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 1935 times:

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 15):
Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 8):

It would mean "us or them", in this case.

Now you are starting to sound like GWB!

In that case, it would go beyond what is just a war in Iraq. It would be a clash ofwhich type of society we would have-that, in the end, is much, much more cataclysmic than Iraq could ever be.


User currently offlineAndesSMF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (8 years 2 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 1924 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 16):

But to me, perhaps Iraq is the beginning of that clash. Here is a couple of comments Zawahiri made in his last published video.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060930...st_afp/qaedausattacks_060930082434

"Zawahiri begged Muslims to support the mujahedeen in Iraq and Afghanistan by all possible means because these countries were what he called the battlefield of the contemporary Crusade."

Zawahiri branded Pope Benedict XVI an "impostor for his attitude to Islam and the Arab world."

Also in the video message, the righthand man to Bin Laden called for a holy war in Sudan's Darfur region against the "crusaders... of the UN". Zawahiri called on "Muslims to join a jihad in Darfur against the forces of the crusaders related to the United Nations".

(I see that they have no respect for the UN, either)

I think this dreaded conflict is already at the beginning stages.


User currently offlineBHXFAOTIPYYC From Portugal, joined Jun 2005, 1644 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (8 years 2 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 1915 times:

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 17):
the righthand man to Bin Laden

I'm sure Osama enjoys the "right hand" of Zawahiri on a nighly basis, however, that isn't what you asked.



Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
If a scientific poll came out in the U.S., and said the surest path to peace would be for the entire nation to convert to Islam, follow strict Sharia Law, and to give up all of our freedoms-if the press, of religion, of dissent, would you do it to save American lives.

You could do all of the above, but then you would not longer be American in the way most Americans see themselves or their nation. You're enemies would in turn have no respect for you. Ultimately you talk of saving American lives, but under such tyranny, what would you be saving them for?



Breakfast in BHX, lunch in FAO, dinner in TIP, baggage in YYC.
User currently offlineRolfen From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 1809 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (8 years 2 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 1887 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
If a scientific poll came out in the U.S., and said the surest path to peace would be for the entire nation to convert to Islam, follow strict Sharia Law, and to give up all of our freedoms-if the press, of religion, of dissent, would you do it to save American lives.

I ask everyone to wait till one user responds.

Turnabout is fair play.

Hell yeah, sure, if giving you a bj can same a life in timbuctu, i'll do it any time of the week. Here i'll give you my number and you call me anytime you want this to happen.

(you knew i was being ironic, right?)



rolf
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