IFEMaster From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 1, posted (6 years 8 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 2240 times:
Good...I'm glad common sense won on this occassion. If it's such a big deal, she should go and teach in a private Muslim school. If you teach in a British state school, you should expect to conform to the rules, regs, and requirements.
Many people in America, reading such things, might imagine that Europe's woes in this regard are simply an adjunct of not only its own policies, but the idea promoted by certain Europeans that the U.S. is the big bully-boy in the world today. The latter idea takes the form of attacking Europe's defender and making it more likely for non-Westerners to see legitimacy in their own anti-U.S. stance.
The West, however, has often been known for its disunity.
Islamic critics may yet prevail, because who would listen to people who don't even agree amongst themselves?
Perhaps Europe is truly a thing of the past. Perhaps we should vow, as Americans, to leave it to stand alone. I question, sometimes, whether it is worth the trouble otherwise.
Let's see if I get this straight: you're trying to use a thread about a teacher not being allowed to wear a veil in class as an opportunity to preach the end of Europe and the severing of ties between the US and Europe?
You have issues.
This thread's about a veil. Stick with the program.
AerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 6, posted (6 years 8 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2201 times:
Well, let's also consider the statements found in the following. Human rights are important to consider.
If Europeans are concerned about human rights in America, they should be equally concerned about them in their own countries.
Please see, for example:
(Excerpt)
Quote: Belgrade, 19 Oct. (AKI) - Banning immigrant Muslim women from wearing the niqab, the face-covering eyes-only veil is a denial of their fundamental human rights and a sign of intolerance, a Bosnian Muslim official and a leading Serbian expert on Islam, said on Thursday. Though the majority of Muslim women in the Balkans don’t wear the veil, most of the region's religious leaders and politicians were reluctant to get involved in the ongoing European debate on this issue.
"It’s the right of every woman to decide how she’s going to dress and what to wear," said Muharem Omerdic, the head of the religious education department of the Bosnian Islamic Community, representing some 1.5 million Muslims in Bosnia. "Preventing that amounts to a violation of basic human rights and a sign of intolerance," Omerdic told Adnkronos International (AKI). "In different societies, peoples dress differently, which is normal, and politicians should not interfere with that," he added.
Apart from the ongoing debate in Britain and France, Italy's prime minister Romano Prodi said on Tuesday that a wearing veil didn’t help Muslim women integrate in European society, but led to segregation. "You can't cover your face. If you have a veil, fine, but you must be seen," Prodi told Reuters television. "This is common sense I think, it is important for our society. It is not how you dress but if you are hidden or not," said Prodi.
But Omerdic said if Muslim immigrant women had to give up the veil in order to integrate into European society, "this leads to assimilation, not integration." He pointed out that in Bosnia women are free to wear whatever they want.
Let's all remember, as well, that assimilation has been found to be a bad thing by important intellectuals. These intellectuals are very fond of quoting human rights against American activities. Surely they cannot be offended if human rights are quoted against them?
Chachu201 From New Zealand, joined Apr 2006, 857 posts, RR: 19 Reply 7, posted (6 years 8 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2201 times:
Well, I reckon that if a uniform policy states something, it should be adhered to. If you came to work wearing a coat of armour, do you reckon BA might ask you to take it off?
And would there be the same amount of debate? Probably not, because its non-religious. But because the argument of religion comes into it, then it all gets so much worse....
Head, Customer Service and Support. Editor, Aviation Articles.
AerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 9, posted (6 years 8 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2179 times:
Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 8): Errmm no - we're still here. Helllooooo !!
What I mean is that the idea of Europe as it has been is a thing of the past. That is, assuming that human rights and so forth are to be enforced to the liking of people who object to traditional European practices, then Europe might be simply part and parcel of a sweep of countries in which religious practices are given their sway according to their strength.
And while what President Prodi says is interesting, I wonder what the European courts will say, based on the understanding of human rights as urged by many European leaders.
9V From China, joined Aug 2008, 0 posts, RR: 0 Reply 10, posted (6 years 8 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2174 times:
Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 6): Banning immigrant Muslim women from wearing the niqab, the face-covering eyes-only veil is a denial of their fundamental human rights and a sign of intolerance
AerospaceFan, This woman is free in this country to wear that veil 24 hours a day if she wants! No one is denying her that....BUT THE KIDS COME FIRST IN THIS CASE!!!!!!!!
777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 11, posted (6 years 8 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2176 times:
Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 9): What I mean is that the idea of Europe as it has been is a thing of the past. That is, assuming that human rights and so forth are to be enforced to the liking of people who object to traditional European practices, then it might be simply part and parcel of a sweep of countries in which religious practices are given their sway according to their strength.
That's the single most confusing, nonsensical sentence in the history of Airliners.net.
I know I read a lot into things, but Christ, don't you have a job or something?
AerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 12, posted (6 years 8 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2160 times:
Quoting 9V (Reply 10): AerospaceFan, This woman is free in this country to wear that veil 24 hours a day if she wants! No one is denying her that....BUT THE KIDS COME FIRST IN THIS CASE!!!!!!!!
That's good, but the question is, will the European courts in Brussels agree? That has yet to be determined.
AerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 13, posted (6 years 8 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2146 times:
Quoting 777236ER (Reply 11): That's the single most confusing, nonsensical sentence in the history of Airliners.net.
What is it that you don't understand about the sentence?
If you read what has been criticized of the recent anti-veil comments, the bottom line is that human rights is at issue, and if so, the human right to practice religion should trump any other need -- and particularly any employment-related need.
Someone else has mentioned that wearing certain religious apparel is deemed necessary and therefore must be accommodated by British Airways, for example.
It seems to me that this recent decision against the veil will be reversed by the European courts, or by the UN, at some point.
If so, then Europe will become, not Europe, but simply part of an international assembly of countries where people of great faith -- for example, some Moslems -- will be able to practice that faith, and therefore transform that assembly into something other than what we've known as Europe for the last millennium.
ME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13875 posts, RR: 27 Reply 14, posted (6 years 8 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2137 times:
Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 3): Many people in America, reading such things, might imagine that Europe's woes in this regard are simply an adjunct of not only its own policies, but the idea promoted by certain Europeans that the U.S. is the big bully-boy in the world
in short, you mean, people in Europe might feel tempted to see such problems as the result of US politics in the world ? Rubbish, such things are the result of a kind of fundamentalist wave, which is receding in some places and becoming more of a nuisance in others. The matter in Europe is however more important than in the USA as Europe and the Arab World are direct neighbours, and as more than 30 mio. people of Arab origin live in Europe. It is to be mentioned that many Arab states also have restrictions against veils and even scarves, primarily in public service, in force.
Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 6): f Europeans are concerned about human rights in America, they should be equally concerned about them in their own countries.
Limits against veils and scarves are NOT violations of human rights.
Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 9): What I mean is that the idea of Europe as it has been is a thing of the past. That is, assuming that human rights and so forth are to be enforced to the liking of people who object to traditional European practices, then it might be simply part and parcel of a sweep of countries in which religious practices are given their sway according to their strength.
Human rights are NOT enforced "to the liking of people who ....." . So that your consideration is wrong.
it of course differs, but usually, most courts in Europe support curbs to extreme clothing like veils and scarves, particulary in regard to jobs in public service
-
AerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 16, posted (6 years 8 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2135 times:
Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 14): Human rights are NOT enforced "to the liking of people who ....." . So that your consideration is wrong.
Aren't human rights, human rights? What are governments to tell people what to wear and what not to wear?
Did you not read the articles I cited, saying that dictating to people what they can and cannot wear is a violation of human rights?
Perhaps if the Europeans don't agree, the UN will have something to say about this. After all, the UN always has plenty to say about U.S. actions of one kind or another. Why not against the EU?
Human rights are at stake here, not some shabby old job.
And religious rights, too!
Again:
(Excerpt)
Quote: Miroljub Jevtic, professor at Belgrade University’s political science faculty and an expert on religion, said the veil debate was a result of the "mistaken European perception of religion and misunderstanding of Islam."Whereas Jesus Christ was just a religious leader, and the Christian Church is separated from the state, Islam’s founder, Mohammed, was "everything – the head of state, religious leader and the supreme judge," Jevtic told AKI.
"Secularism is foreign to Islam and Europe should understand that," he underlined.
The face-veil is deeply rooted in the Muslim tradition and teachings and, "taken literally, those who renounce it are condemned to hell," Jevtic, who is a Serb and an Orthodox Christian, explained. Europe was "facing a difficult task, having to choose between granting religious freedoms and traditional rights to a growing Muslim population, or ultimately to abolish itself," he said.
"Denying such religious freedoms as the face-veil clearly violates the rights of Muslims, which are deeply rooted in Islam's teachings. Letting it develop freely, it is in the long run sentencing itself to Islamisation,” Jevtic concluded.
Have Europeans forgotten all about multiculturalism?
777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 18, posted (6 years 8 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2128 times:
Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 13): It seems to me that this recent decision against the veil will be reversed by the European courts, or by the UN, at some point.
The UN has no juristiction.
The case will never be heard before the ECHR because her rights in Article 9 and Article 10 are both subject to restrictions needed in a democratic society, for example the idea that pupils should be able to hear their teacher speak.
Quote: None of the above, however, gives us licence to break the following principle: I cannot inflict my prejudice on those who voluntarily wear the hijab or the niqab.
And we as a democratic society cannot dictate to Muslims, or any other believers, which interpretation of their religion they ought to follow, so long as it does not conflict with the law. To think otherwise is to be presumptuous, arrogant and undemocratic.
The writer is a former editorial page editor of a major metropolitan newspaper in North America.
25 ME AVN FAN: are professors always right ? - we have had that discussion at length on here a short time ago. Neither Niqab nor Hijab are really demanded by the Ko
26 AerospaceFan: Of course not. But why should we believe you rather than the professor? Let's also remember that human rights people can be rather assertive: (Excerp
27 Cosec59: The solution is relatively simple. If this teacher wishes to wear a veil whilst teaching, she should teach in a country where this is the norm and acc
28 JGPH1A: It's perfectly simple. The lady in question has the perfect right to wear her veil if she wants, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. However, her employer
29 777236ER: That is nonsense. The veil is acceptable in the UK. For all you know, the teacher is a British citizen. How can you suggest her having to leave to pr
30 ThePRGuy: Good, glad to hear it. Attention seeking moron Criminal. She should be paying £1k for wasting time and being dishonest whilst getting her job. That
31 Cosec59: If it were, then this case would never have been brought. Agreed. I wasn't. I was suggesting she carry out her chosen profession
32 AerospaceFan: Why can't her employer be at least as tolerant as British Airways regarding scarves and other headwear? http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20061014...k_afp/
33 JGPH1A: The problem is not covering the hair, it is covering the rest of the face so that the wearer cannot be heard - and you can be fully certain that no a
34 AerospaceFan: Good point. I'll accept that. Now, as for what the experts have said, I don't know how to explain that.[Edited 2006-10-19 22:17:49]
35 JGPH1A: Good - so do you see now how the right of the individual to their religious practises does not include the right to a job that these religious practi
36 RichardPrice: She was given that option, she refused, the school suspended her. We arent talking about a little scarf here, we are talking about a full face mask.
37 777236ER: That argument doesn't quite hold up. She brought the case up and she's not the one to decide what the UK accepts and what it doesn't.
38 Halls120: We should start a survey - solicit opinions on what form of drugs or alcohol AF was on when he wrote that unintelligible paragraph.
39 9V: 777236ER, In the original thread you were actually defending this woman. How can anyone with any ounce of common sense defend a teacher who is trying
40 777236ER: What I was doing was defending the right for people in the UK to maintain their own cultures, against ThePRGuy who said that people should 'conform t
41 Foxy: Another issue is that it would be very easy for someone else to impersonate this person in the school as there are so few facial features that one cou
43 L410Turbolet: Just to refresh my memory... what was the idea of "Europe" in the first place???
44 TRVYYZ: Sorry to ask this stupid question. Would the lifting of veil for the security personnel at an airport to ensure that it is not a guy inside be a viola
45 AerospaceFan: A good question, and probably worth reading about: http://www.cambridge.org/uk/catalogue/catalogue.asp?isbn=0521795524
46 Asturias: That is never going to happen. This is a minority of a minority that is demanding outrageous things. Traditional European practices will be upheld, b
47 AerospaceFan: Asturias, I am always pleased when I am reminded that there are so many reasonable people posting in this Forum. I find myself learning from them, an
48 L410Turbolet: I was being a little sarcastic. This veil case shows how Europe got cornered itself by its politically correct multikulti naivety, which was most lik
49 777236ER: Sorry, 'pride' should make us prevent our own citizens from wearing what they want?
50 Windshear: Wow powerful reading! I just read an article today in the (in)famous Jyllands Posten, it is an interview with a kopt, speaking his mind about Europes
51 MCIGuy: I saw a news report regarding this issue. They were interviewing the "average Briton" on the street and asking what they thought of it. The pervasive
52 Oly720man: My understanding is that she didn't wear the full face covering when teaching, it was only if she was in the presence of a non-family adult male (i.e
53 RichardPrice: No, the complaint from the pupils was specifically that they could not understand her when she was teaching with the veil on. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1
54 9V: Now she has decided to appeal. I guess legal aid will be paying. According to the paper it's already cost the tax payer £250K. Why doesn't she apply
55 ME AVN FAN: What you call "multikulti" that means a multicultural society is a good thing. But to be open-minded should NOT mean to be naive and weak. And "gestu
56 TRVYYZ: What is a Headfield Church of England Junior School ? Is it similar to a Catholic school or something?
57 ME AVN FAN: just found this : - http://www.cofe.anglican.org/info/education/schools/ Schools and the Church of England: Church schools School ImageHow many Churc
58 VC10: Apparently during the 1800s in England education was only for the more well off in the community, and so the Church of England set out to build a scho
59 EK156: I am a Muslim and I totally agree with the above comments. I have been always against the concept of full veil covering. In Islam a woman is supposed
60 Asturias: Have you noticed that in our society there are things that you cannot do? Ever wonder why.. or does everything go? Your question is absurd, unless yo
61 RichardPrice: From people I have spoken to that live in the typically named 'Muslim' countries (dont be affended by the quotes, I use them because these countries
62 777236ER: 'Things you cannot do' ranges from not wearing a seatbelt to not murdering someone. There's is no legitimate reason why the state should prevents its
63 EK156: The problem is some Muslims who live outside a Muslim country might worry that if they migrate into the society of that country, they might lose thei
64 RobK: I saw a comment on another site about this story and thought it was pretty damned funny : Out of respect these xxxxxxxx idiots should not be wearing t
65 EK156: I am sorry mate, but your reply is generalization and also I see some racism in it???? What do you mean speaking for the majority of the UK who are w
66 777236ER: So I ask again, what gives a government any right to ban its citizens from wearing certain articles of clothing? Nonsense. What about a 3rd/4th gener
67 Elite: Didn't think she had much of a case anyway, and as someone said before, the employer had rights to fire her if she was doing something that was stoppi
68 UK_Dispatcher: One thing that no one ever seems to mention is that the veil is NOT a requirement of Islam. Ladies are required to cover their heads, but not their fa
69 ME AVN FAN: What actually is seriously disturbing and irritating is that many people in the West regards Saudi Arabia and Iran as "typical", while they in realit
70 RobK: Well, if you were a woman I'd like to see you go to Egypt and walk around with a mini skirt and a boob tube on and see how long you last before you a
71 RobK: I didn't write that statement originally. It was seen on another website and I personally just found the bit about the wearing of masks amusing. Does
72 EK156: Rob you are steering away from the subject mate and losing focus!!! You are jumping the wagon without even looking at where it will lead???? I think
73 RichardPrice: To be honest, I was over there on a three day break a couple years ago, and I saw women dressed like that in Cairo, Alexandria et al. They werent get
74 RobK: A Pakistani woman teaching English is just wrong anyway. What sort of example is that to the kids. . It's time this country took a lead from Australia
75 777236ER: If I were a woman you'd like to see me in a mini skirt? Uh, I'm flattered, but I'm taken. Sorry. I don't think the UK should really be comparing itse
76 9V: Is it? I'm not religious at all but if I decided to visit a buddist temple in Bangkok I'd be expected to take my shoes off as a mark of respect befor
77 RobK: Totally disagree. It's the ever increasing "multiculturalness" of this country that's making it the way it is today where you can't say or do anythin
78 777236ER: You'd prefer perhaps Bernhard Ingham on Saturday night TV? Racist claptrap. Why would it offend you so much if white people were the minority? Would
79 777236ER: I've just noticed all these other gems of yours. I think it's clear to all that this is the ranting of a BNP-supporting racist, pure and simple. The
80 ThePRGuy: I wouldn't say it was pride as such, but I do agree with your point. Its not pride, its racial indifference which is preventing integration which is
81 777236ER: So he's racist, but suggesting that women should be banned from wearing what clothes they want in their own country is perfectly alright?
82 RobK: I knew it would only be a matter of time before the do-gooders crawled out of the woodwork with the racist accusations. That's the problem with societ
83 Gkirk: People wearing masks can scare kids, hence why this woman shouldn't be allowed to wear her veil. Also, who's to say someday some paedophile dresses up
84 Asturias: What gives a government any right over the people. The people. The absolute majority. That's who. Harsh but true. cheers Asturias
85 ThePRGuy: Here we go again another one of your claims that I have never suggested. Find a direct quote of me suggesting a ban. Erm - did you follow my previous
86 UK_Dispatcher: Just look at the amount of kids that the Muslims in the UK are having. Then look at how many kids that the rest of the polulation are having. Then lo
87 RobK: I had a Muslim woman knock on my door last night. I didn't open the door though, I just talked to her through the letterbox to see how she likes it...
88 GDB: Bottom line, I think this was quickly turned from a local employment tribunal into something bigger, by this womans's backers. If she has the not got
89 Cosec59: I totally agree. There is something sinister behind this.
91 ME AVN FAN: While I would strongly advise women to abstain from wearing boob-tubes in most of Southern Europe also, there are many women in Egypt, wearing mini-s
92 777236ER: No, of course not: Muslims frighten you? That's pretty pathetic. In fact, the implication that white, Anglo-Saxon kids are better than Muslim kids is
93 ThePRGuy: Very much with you on that one, congratulations for making a substantial and meaningful point.
94 Windshear: I have heard rumors about wearing veils on passport photos are allowed in the UK, how much of that rumor is true? Boaz.
96 UK_Dispatcher: I think you took that the wrong way. Of course Muslims don't frighten me - I live in a Muslim country! All I am saying is that the free society which
97 9V: These new pens are all the rage in Afganistan.
98 Mandala499: Seriously, reading this thread past reply #70 has made it TOTALLY HILARIOUS! I personally know someone in Egypt who did this before she was married, a
99 ME AVN FAN: suppose, he mixes Egypt up with Saudi Arabia. In Egypt, a girl, going to university and trying to go there wearing a veil however WILL be apprehended
100 Halls120: It is when the particular brand of the extremist wing of ANY religion is permitted to assert its culture on the rest of society unchecked.
101 WrenchBender: Thank you Mr Garnett WrenchBender
102 TuRbUleNc3: Well i got slammed for being racist last time so i wont put my opinion across again. RobK is correct in some things he says though, for sure.
103 N229NW: I think few European whites will mind living in a society where they are the minority IN THE LONG RUN if that were to happen: if they grow up and are
104 ME AVN FAN: first of all, I dare say that most Muslim women in the world are NOT veiled. And a good deal of Muslim women in the world, possibly a majority, not e
Sponsor Message: 
From , joined Dec 1969, posts, 
From China, joined Aug 2008, 0 posts, 
From , joined Dec 1969, posts, 
From Belgium, joined Oct 2001, 4934 posts, 
From New Zealand, joined Apr 2006, 857 posts, 
From , joined Dec 1969, posts, 
From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13875 posts, 
Printer friendly format 
