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Israeli Jets Fire At German Navy Vessel  
User currently offlineClickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9644 posts, RR: 68
Posted (7 years 12 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3674 times:
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Two Israeli warplanes and a German navy vessel have clashed off the Lebanese coast, the Defense Ministry in Berlin said on Wednesday without giving further details.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=2605423

Any idea why Israeli warplanes would fire on a UN vessel off the coast of Lebannon?

89 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTheSorcerer From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2005, 1048 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (7 years 12 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3671 times:

I'd hope that the communications between the german navy and israeli airforce would be a lot better than this. They should have radio contact and not have to resort firing over a boats bow and deploying flares.

Dominic



ALITALIA,All Landings In Torino, All Luggage In Athens ;)
User currently offlinePope From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 12 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3662 times:

Quoting Clickhappy (Thread starter):
Any idea why Israeli warplanes would fire on a UN vessel off the coast of Lebannon?

Nothing in this story says that Israeli jets fired "on" a German vessel. The story says that Israeli jets fired two shots. Given the reputation of the Israeli air force, I think it is a safe assumption to say that if they'd want to have hit the vessel, they would have. (I'm no jet pilot but I don't think they tell you to buzz right over a ship you're shooting at - it seems to me to be a great way to get shot down).

Instead of creating a whole thread inviting speculation from people who know absolutely nothing about what actually happen when Germans themselves say is still under investigation why don't you wait until the facts are established?


User currently offlineBushpilot From South Africa, joined Jul 2007, 0 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (7 years 12 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3661 times:

The problem with the modern media is that they are usually two quick to break a story first, and have it be incomplete or inaccurate in nature as this one is. All it is saying is that an incident did happen.

Quoting Clickhappy (Thread starter):
Any idea why Israeli warplanes would fire on a UN vessel off the coast of Lebannon?

I would only imagine a case of mistaken identity which seems unlikely to me. That very excuse or justification has been used by the Israelis before, a foreign naval vessal in international water who Israel is at peace with being fired upon. Thankfully nobody was hurt and this will probably be chalked up to no harm, no foul.


User currently offline7474ever From Israel, joined Oct 2006, 370 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (7 years 12 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3661 times:

Quoting TheSorcerer (Reply 1):
I'd hope that the communications between the german navy and israeli airforce would be a lot better than this. They should have radio contact and not have to resort firing over a boats bow and deploying flares.

Exactly. According to the israeli TV (channel 2) there was no shooting but deploying flares. The article said that a helicopter was departing a german navy vessel heading south without identifying itself. A radio connection indeed needed.


User currently offlineClickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9644 posts, RR: 68
Reply 5, posted (7 years 12 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3646 times:
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What is speculation? The ABC story says

a junior German defense minister as telling a parliamentary committee that two Israeli F-16 fighters flew low over the German ship and fired two shots.

So, you are wrong, the story does say they fired, did you read it? It is in the second paragraph.


User currently offlineClickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9644 posts, RR: 68
Reply 6, posted (7 years 12 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3646 times:
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7474ever - Thanks for the info. I have a friend (journalist) onboard one of the UN ships, not sure which one, and got a little anxious when I read this story!

edit for typo

[Edited 2006-10-25 20:50:43]

User currently offlinePope From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (7 years 12 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3632 times:

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 5):
So, you are wrong, the story does say they fired, did you read it? It is in the second paragraph.

Nobody said that the jets didn't fire. But there is a world of difference between firing ON something and simply firing.

Quote:
Germany daily Der Tagesspiegel earlier on Wednesday quoted a junior German defense minister as telling a parliamentary committee that two Israeli F-16 fighters flew low over the German ship and fired two shots.

Had the jets wanted to hit the ship, they would have.

You are just trying to stir up sh*t based on a small story where the details are completely unknown. If the German navy believed that the State of Israel fired on its vessel with hostile intent, I assure you this would be front page news.


User currently offlineClickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9644 posts, RR: 68
Reply 8, posted (7 years 12 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3600 times:
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well, it is front page news, in Germany

Israelische Jets geben Schüsse über deutschem Schiff ab

http://www.spiegel.de/

They do say "over" as opposed to "at" which is good.


User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (7 years 12 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3546 times:

Shouldn´t this thread be in Military aviation?

User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7960 posts, RR: 12
Reply 10, posted (7 years 12 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3506 times:

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 11):
They do say "over" as opposed to "at" which is good.

According to Spiegel Online, the two shots were fired "in the air" not at the vessel.



I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlineClickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9644 posts, RR: 68
Reply 11, posted (7 years 12 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3453 times:
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Here is another story, seems to be a lot of confusion over what happened. Anyone else in Germany or Israel have info?

Israel denied a German newspaper report on Wednesday that two of its air force planes had fired twice as they flew over a German navy vessel patrolling the Lebanon coast.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061025/ts_nm/germany_israel_incident_dc


User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 12, posted (7 years 12 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3428 times:

I'd assume Germany's defence Ministry would not light-heartetly admit such an incident taking place if it hadn't happened...
Germany is rather hush-hush when it come to Israel for the known reasons.
So if they take the step to report an incident has happened -I'd rather believe Berlin than Jerusalem -who claims nothing happened.
I' would not over-emphasize the incident -not worth to create a mess because of this.But it indicates the relation between the two counties is not as smooth as it appeared.



Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently onlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9525 posts, RR: 31
Reply 13, posted (7 years 12 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3379 times:

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 5):
a junior German defense minister as telling a parliamentary committee that two Israeli F-16 fighters flew low over the German ship and fired two shots.

I wonder who that "junior" German defense minister is, we only have one and after about a year in office he may still be a rookie, but never a junior. He was on TV news just now and he said that he spoke on the phone with his Israeli counterpart and they deal with the problem. Looks indeed that some flares were deployed and two shots fired, but over, not at the ships.

The German defense minister has a much bigger problem on hand today anyhow, I don't see the relations with Israel touched in any way.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineOldeuropean From Germany, joined May 2005, 2091 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (7 years 12 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3350 times:

The German newspaper FAZ reporting about this incident also reports
this:

Quote:
The French commander of the UN troops in Lebanon (UNIFIL), Alain Pellegrini, expressed himself meanwhile "seriously anxious" over the increasing number of Israeli military flights over Lebanon. Nearly all units of the UN troops in Lebanon would have complained about breaches of the air space in their areas, said Pellegrini according to an UN speaker on Wednesday. Alone nine of such flights were observed on one day.

http://www.faz.net/s/RubB30ABD11B91F...2285645~ATpl~Ecommon~Scontent.html

Perhaps the Israelis checkout how far they can go.

Axel

[Edited 2006-10-25 23:23:39]


Wer nichts weiss muss alles glauben
User currently offlineRolfen From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 1809 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (7 years 12 months 3 days ago) and read 3282 times:

Quoting Clickhappy (Thread starter):
Any idea why Israeli warplanes would fire on a UN vessel off the coast of Lebannon?

Hezbollah were firing missiles from there?



rolf
User currently offlineRAPCON From Puerto Rico, joined Jul 2006, 671 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (7 years 12 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 3227 times:

That German Captain ought to consider the situation in which his ship has been put and perhaps ought to consider better communications with the IDF. Either that or his command will have a very bad conclusion (and his ship may end up at the bottom).


MODS CAN'T STOP ME....THEY CAN ONLY HOPE TO CONTAIN ME!!!
User currently offlineCairo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (7 years 12 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3195 times:

The Israeli jets knew exactly what they were doing and the exact identity of the ships and its helicopters - they are using the finest technology the American taxpayer can buy them, for free. Whatever happened, it was no accident.

http://www.ussliberty.org/

Cairo


http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/sh-usn/usnsh-l/agtr5-k.htm


User currently onlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9525 posts, RR: 31
Reply 18, posted (7 years 12 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3143 times:

just proves that this area is the one area were German forces should not be. Hopefully that French blockhead commander of Unifil is relieved of duty pretty soon and his successor will be a more responsible person.


E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (7 years 12 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3140 times:

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 3):
The problem with the modern media is that they are usually two quick to break a story first, and have it be incomplete or inaccurate in nature as this one is.

Sounds like Civ-Av, SNAFU . . . . .


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26599 posts, RR: 75
Reply 20, posted (7 years 12 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3135 times:

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 17):
That German Captain ought to consider the situation in which his ship has been put and perhaps ought to consider better communications with the IDF. Either that or his command will have a very bad conclusion (and his ship may end up at the bottom).

You probably defend the idiots who shot down Iran Air 655



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineRolfen From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 1809 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (7 years 12 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3110 times:

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 17):
That German Captain ought to consider the situation in which his ship has been put and perhaps ought to consider better communications with the IDF

Communication might not be enought. A couple of monthes ago, IDF repeatedly fired at a UN bunker, until it finally destroyed it, killing the 4 UN soldiers hiding inside. Between the first shot and the collapse of the bunker, many phone calls had been given to the IDF, and several hours passed, and each time the UN was assured that the bombing would stop.
The next day, kofi annan qualified the bombing and the killing as intentional. You cant blame him for using this term, this incident was so avoidable that you could only ask yourself if they didnt do it on purpose.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 20):
just proves that this area is the one area were German forces should not be.

Well, some people need the German to be there...



rolf
User currently offline7474ever From Israel, joined Oct 2006, 370 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (7 years 12 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3070 times:

Quoting Cairo (Reply 18):
they are using the finest technology the American taxpayer can buy them, for free.

http://www.fas.org/asmp/profiles/egypt.htm


User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 23, posted (7 years 12 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3064 times:

Quoting Pope (Reply 2):
Nothing in this story says that Israeli jets fired "on" a German vessel. The story says that Israeli jets fired two shots. Given the reputation of the Israeli air force, I think it is a safe assumption to say that if they'd want to have hit the vessel, they would have. (I'm no jet pilot but I don't think they tell you to buzz right over a ship you're shooting at - it seems to me to be a great way to get shot down).

-
The Israelis in the meantime have clearly stated that their jets did NOT fire AT the ship and had no desire to hit it in any way. Possibly a "practical joke" ?
-
General Alain Pelegrini of the French expeditionary UN-corps has commented that the many flights of the Israeli Air Force into and over Lebanon in his view are a clear violation of both the ceasefire and the sovereignty of Lebanon and not acceptable in the longer run. The Italians therefore have started to deliver anti-aircraft missiles to the Lebanese, so that they can take steps to make such flying exercises a bit less comfortable for the Israelis.


User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 24, posted (7 years 12 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3059 times:

Quoting Pope (Reply 7):
Nobody said that the jets didn't fire.

--

Quoting 7474ever (Reply 4):
According to the israeli TV (channel 2) there was no shooting but deploying flares.

so that "7474ever" is "nobody" ?  wave 

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 9):
Shouldn�t this thread be in Military aviation?

No, as it is about the German Fleet, and NOT about aviation, and it is politics.


25 PanHAM : It is about time that this his French clown is retired from his post. If they try shooting down Israeli jets the "fun" will rather be on the Israeli
26 MDorBust : So much for the neutrality of the UN force.. Idiots.
27 ME AVN FAN : they presumably will take proper care NOT to shoot down any jets, but to shoot "at them" so that they realize no longer to be desired. to prevent Hiz
28 Rolfen : I presume it's a deal between italy and lebanon that has nothing to do with the UN force. Anyway in the light of what happened lately, lebanon could
29 7474ever : ...but - according to your opinion - of the lebanese.
30 Post contains links ME AVN FAN : here two reports about such matters : - http://www.debka.com/headline.php?hid=3388 -- According to DEBKAfile�s Rome sources, prime minister Roma
31 Rolfen : Lebanese civilians also need someone to protect them from israeli attacks which could spark a new conflict.
32 Sabena332 : The radio station WDR 2 just reported the following in the 1pm news: A helicopter took off from the ship, the pilot of the heli didn't inform anyone t
33 PanHAM : are you naive? Do you think an Israeli pilot, with all the training he has, would wait till his plane is really hit? Lebanese people need someone ro
34 7474ever : You have some reading problems ? Do you see "Israeli TV" above my username ? I was saying what was reported. Besides, there was no shooting but deplo
35 7474ever : Well, in this case you bet on the wrong horse.
36 RAPCON : Dude, the morning of the shootdown I was about 10-12nm away from the VINCENNES, involved in a gunfight with a bunch of IRGC Boghammers (we martyred 3
37 ME AVN FAN : What the Israeli pilots with whatever training they did have are to do is not the question. THE point is that their overflying of Lebanese territory
38 Sprout5199 : Hmm, Did the 2 Israeli fighters call the German ship when they approached? sounds like it is the fault of the F-16 pilots. If the ship was in interna
39 Beaucaire : ..like claims from the MOD ,that they never used Phosphorus bombs in Lebanon....????
40 ME AVN FAN : - The Israelis claim that the helicopter approached the Lebanese-Israeli sea-border. If so, it would have indeed been the mistake of the German side.
41 Petertenthije : If this is the case then the Germans would not be at fault until they actually crossed the border. From the above claim it sounds as though the Germa
42 ME AVN FAN : THIS exactly is the question. I had a look into various reports but nobody is clear about it. WAS the helicopter ON the border-line or even across it
43 PanHAM : the "practical joke", my friend, is that the Navy (and it is not only German but there are Danish ships as well, 6 nations altogether in that fleet)
44 Post contains images Windshear : You said it! Nice to see you quote Debka Well written! Boaz.[Edited 2006-10-26 21:34:54]
45 NoUFO : No, this is what Lebanese politicians wanted, but in the end it's up to the (German) commander. There are Lebanese officials onboard the frigate, but
46 PanHAM : I wish you are right, read tomorrow morning's papers.
47 Post contains links NoUFO : Seems you're right: http://www.tagesspiegel.de/politik/archiv/27.10.2006/2860278.asp What a joke!
48 LY744 : To summarize this thread and the various claims presented herein: Don't let facts get in the way of a good theory! LY744.
49 ME AVN FAN : NO, these "reconnaissance flights" not only are NOT essential, they need to be stopped, reduced at least. These flights are illegal in any way. - I d
50 NoUFO : Yes, but the 6-mile zone was something that popped up before the Bundestag gave the approval for the mission. I believe it was first a 12-mile zone a
51 Kay : Wow.. now these two meet again, in a big cloud of unclear roles, unclear responsibliities and actions.. I say it's time to turn the page on the past,
52 PanHAM : well, unlike Austria, Germany has dealt with the past and is on excellent terms with Israel. Believe me, behind the diplomatic scenes, the Israelis d
53 Windshear : Yes, well sometimes their opinions shine through, but I only look for their news, they usually have quite blunt news coverage. Boaz.
54 ME AVN FAN : It is NOT my business to judge who lied when and in what way. The point however is that the matter originally was started by a force of the Italian N
55 Post contains links ME AVN FAN : when having a look at this WEBsite http://www.lebarmy.gov.lb/English/Equipments.asp then you may note some difference between the Lebanese "Navy" and
56 PanHAM : they have a couple of speedboats with a draught of 2,60 meters. They are purpose build for the shallow Baltic Sea. Good enough to control the arms sm
57 Post contains links Beaucaire : A german observation ans spy-vessel has apparently the whole incident on Video and already sent to Berlin- just to set the records right.. http://www.
58 ME AVN FAN : A) that 6 miles limit may not exactly satisfy your criteria of a "robust mandate" but should be something to work with. It means, to put it the other
59 Post contains images RAPCON : FF's had 40 radars too!!!
60 Kay : Well, I'll remember that next time I have a chat with Gusenbauer. In the mean time, I know that Germany has dealt with the past and that is why I say
61 PanHAM : Kay, it is never ever personal, you made a general remark which I topped with a general remark. You don't need to tralk to Gusenbauer, he knows that
62 Beaucaire : The robust mandate is clearly not given - I agree that the German public most likely will never get the full picture (which is somewhat understandable
63 Rolfen : This cancer feeds itself upon the exessive reactions of israel and that is how it justifies its existence. Hezbollah exists for a reason, it has seve
64 Cedars747 : Yes ,I have a clear idea why Israeli warplanes would fire on a UN vessel.Israel is an arrogant and trouble maker state same as Iran,North Korea ect..
65 PanHAM : we had that before but. -providing social services so that it can hide its missile launchers behind/below kindergartens/schools/private homes so that
66 ME AVN FAN : not really. They maintain(ed) such social services in areas where they had no missiles launchers. They had no missiles launchers in South Beirut, but
67 Cedars747 : Add one more differance ,Iran and North Korea are not PROMISED LANDS Alex!!!
68 Rolfen : Lebanese will take anything but a civil war, yet disarming hezbollah might trigger one... They are very powerful. The hope I guess is to kill them by
69 PanHAM : you're wrong again. There are always some people who consider such countries as promised lands. Same as there are people who are unable to distinguis
70 Kay : PanHAM yes, but I am one of those (few?) who believe that the UNIFIL mission in its new role is flawed. The only benefit out of this idea was that it
71 Beaucaire : ...as it appears the IDF have started to play with German Helicopters ... Focus Magazin reports that on several occasions German helicopters have been
72 PanHAM : I think that I have expressed my dis-comfort with the situation as it is. As much as I agree with the responsibility Germany takes in UN missions, th
73 Post contains images Kay : PanHAM, sounds like you're leftist Kay
74 Post contains links Beaucaire : Source : Jerusalem Post "The navy already has three Dolphin-class submarines. They are the most expensive weapon platforms in the IDF's arsenal. Germ
75 ME AVN FAN : - I fear the Israelis count on the German "holocaust-guilt-complex" and that the Germans do NOT want to be in any kind of even verbal conflict with I
76 NoUFO : As much as I believe to understand where you are from, you need to take care not to turn guilt into a privilege.
77 Post contains images Cedars747 : Totally agree with you.Like some people who are unable to distinguish between human rights and oil,reason why they opted to support dictatorships Ale
78 ME AVN FAN : the recent incidents just have proven that the matter is a serious one. And as many Germans, particularily in higher echelons, still have, as mention
79 Post contains links Beaucaire : There are reports that the IDF have provoked anothe incident involving a IDF fighter and a german helicopter-this is in addition to the previously rep
80 PanHAM : replace the word GUILT by responsibility. Responsibilty is a complicated complex but it is not a complex. If it was, the world would be in a worse sh
81 Post contains images ME AVN FAN : - THIS exactly is the problem. For your defence minister the attempt to achieve the quadratisation of the circle. To stay firm on principles but be d
82 NoUFO : PanHAM, I mentioned "guilt" because I thought you were referring to Germany's history were guilt is indeed the approriate term. Israel's government sa
83 ME AVN FAN : - If their idea of "Germans contributing to stabilize the ceasefire" just is to have the Germans operating virtually under Israeli defacto-command (p
84 Post contains images Baroque : This whole thread is bizarre. That water is either Lebanon's or International and Germany is there on a UN mission, it is not supposed to be a surrog
85 PanHAM : First of all, the case is settled, the Israeli Chief of Staff has apologized and this should be OK now. Next - your thinking is twisted. Germany is n
86 NoUFO : This is not what I'm debatting. I was talking about turning a historic/former guilt into a privilege today.
87 ME AVN FAN : I did NOT and do NOT think that the German Navy IS the auxiliary force of the IDF, but that the Israelis wanted to make it one. Well, nice that this
88 Frequentflyer : What was proved lately is that Germany should be more assertive and treat this incident like any other millitary incident instead of taking a long ti
89 Baroque : Indeed, assuming that is what Lebanon wishes, as it appears that it does. As my earlier post was meant to suggest, selective guilt rather than just g
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