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The '06 Midterms: GOP Losing Middle Class  
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 1436 times:

http://news.aol.com/elections/story/...82209990001?ncid=NWS00010000000001

I really wanted to post it because of the incredible line in here by Speaker Hastert, about the state of affairs in the nation.

Read it, and you'll see why far too many Republicans in Washington are so removed from reality.

30 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 1428 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
Read it, and you'll see why far too many Republicans in Washington are so removed from reality.



Quote:
On Thursday, House Speaker Dennis Hastert, R-Ill., dismissed talk of a sour outlook for the GOP and cited signs of a strong economy. "Things are looking pretty good, and I don't think anybody would really want to change that at this time," he said in Aurora, Ill.

First of all, it's part of Hastert's job to be upbeat and cheer on his side.

Secondly, the poll also says that the Economy is a top issue, and nobody can reasonably deny that the Bush Administration has done very nicely with the economy.

But then I don't trust polls at all. See you at the voting booths.


User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 1423 times:

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 1):
Secondly, the poll also says that the Economy is a top issue, and nobody can reasonably deny that the Bush Administration has done very nicely with the economy.

 rotfl 

Then why are so many people angry at the Republicans for the state of the economy, Charles?

Truth is, the only ones benefitting from this ecoomy are those already rich, and corporate America. The middle class, who has seen good-paying jobs get shipped overseas hasn't seen it, that's for sure.

There's nothing nice about this economy. Not in this area, especially.

I see the denial extends beyond Washington.

In other mid-term news, the National GOP is apparently throwing in the towel here in Ohio with regards to the U.S. Senate race, as they're pulling all their national money and ad time for Mike DeWine.

http://www.cleveland.com/open/plaind...e/news/1161938573225110.xml&coll=2


User currently offlineAirCop From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 1417 times:

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 1):
d nobody can reasonably deny that the Bush Administration has done very nicely with the economy.

On yes they can. Just do a search, and it will supply numerous data on how the middle class as suffered under the Bush Administration. Take home wages would be a strong indicator.

* Real wages, adjusted for increases in the cost of living, have declined. Workers are more productive, but they aren’t being compensated for their higher productivity, as they have been in every other period in our economic history. Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke recently told the House Financial Services Committee that wage increases up to the level of productivity growth would not be inflationary and therefore agreed that there is room for substantial increases in wages in the current environment.



* Faced with this evidence, the Republicans have countered that the “total compensation” that workers receive has increased. This is simply an effort to avoid the topic of falling wages. In reality, the increases in total compensation are due to higher contributions for health insurance premiums, increased pension fund contributions, and corporate accounting for stock options -- none of which translate into higher take home pay for most workers or make them better off in any meaningful way. In fact, the Federal Reserve’s most recent economic report to Congress indicates that higher pension payments are not an actual boost in payments to workers, but are simply a shift in the corporate balance sheet to “bolster pension assets” in order to meet existing obligations under PBGC rules. According to data provided by the Federal Reserve, take-home pay is a declining share of total compensation, while health insurance, something that is costing employers and workers more to provide the same benefit, is the fastest growing portion of compensation.



* The bottom line is that virtually all of the increased wealth generated by a growing economy since 2001 has gone to corporate profits and the very small group of individuals who stand to benefit the most from corporate profits. While workers’ share of national income has declined by nearly 3% since 2001, the corporate profit share has increased by nearly 6%, an extraordinary shift by historically standards. The result has been an unprecedented rise in income inequality. While the wealthiest 10% of families have seen strong gains in real income, the remaining 90% have seen their real incomes fall since 2001. And as incomes fell for the vast majority of families, the very wealthiest in our society, the 14,400 families making more than $5 million a year, enjoyed income gains of nearly 14%.



It’s no mystery why a majority of Americans say they are not better off even as the overall economy continues to grow. By the measures that matter most, they aren’t.

Took only a couple of seconds to find the above in a congressional document.















L


User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 1413 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 2):
Then why are so many people angry at the Republicans for the state of the economy, Charles?

Let's see:

Unemployment overall is about 4.6%. Pretty damned good.

Unemployment gor university graduates is only about 2%. Which indicates that the worst unemployment is among the most unskilled workers. Didn't listen when people told you to finish high school? Your fault.

The deficit is at a little over 2% of GDP. Most industrialized nations would kill to have a deficit so low. And it's still dropping.

The stock market is at record levels, and since it got their pretty slowly, we are unlikely to see a big bust like we saw in 2000-2001.

Inflation is under control.

The countries Net Domestic Value is up across the board.

Fuel prices have stabilized.

To me, as an economist, things are looking pretty damned good.

Sounds to me that there is an awful lot of propaganda going on trying to convince people that the economy sucks, while in reality Bill Clinton would swear off extra-marital success forever to have had it so good, since the 90's boom was mostly based on the internet boom, while this one has a much wider and more stable base.


User currently offlineBushpilot From South Africa, joined Jul 2007, 0 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 1409 times:

GOP losing middle class? The GOP is eliminating the middle class from exsistance not just losing it. Under the Bush economy, the rich have gotten richer that is clear to anyone with half a brain, even most members of the GOP. But the trickle down Reaganomics have once again proved to be similar to communism. A great idea, but not practical upon implementation.
Human greed is a bitch isnt it.
Health care is another biggie, but the GOP can talk about immigration, gay marraige, education...whatever...they will lose this election over a piece of land the size of California, where billions are spent weekly and hundreds die daily.


User currently offlineMdsh00 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4124 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 1405 times:

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 1):
Secondly, the poll also says that the Economy is a top issue, and nobody can reasonably deny that the Bush Administration has done very nicely with the economy.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15441994/

Quote:
U.S. economic growth slowed in 3rd quarter
Increase in gross domestic product was weakest since 2003

Economic growth slowed to a crawl in the third quarter, advancing at a pace of just 1.6 percent, the worst in more than three years.

The latest snapshot of the economy, released by the Commerce Department on Friday, showed that the slumping housing market figured prominently in the economy’s dramatic loss of momentum. Investment in homebuilding was cut by the biggest amount since early 1991.

The reading on gross domestic product was weaker than the 2.1 percent pace many economists were forecasting....

This article only shows how much the economy was depending on the housing market, which is now definitely on a downward trend.



"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
User currently offlineAirCop From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 1402 times:

Here in the Phoenix area the major growth in employment is in the government sector not private employers. Wal-Mart is the biggest private employer in Arizona, which = low wages.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 4):
The deficit is at a little over 2% of GDP.

This the biggest deficit ever, no matter how well the books are cooked.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 4):

Unemployment gor university graduates is only about 2%.

Haven't hear this one. But I'll bite, based on how long after they graduate? Are they in the field they studied?

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 4):
Unemployment overall is about 4.6%. Pretty damned good.

Higher in some areas and lower in others, doesn't include the individuals that used up their unemployment and still are unemployed.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 4):
The stock market is at record levels,

Finally, the Dow Jones doesn't effect the entire market, several indicators are still lower than the year 2000.


User currently offlineBushpilot From South Africa, joined Jul 2007, 0 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 1389 times:

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 4):
Which indicates that the worst unemployment is among the most unskilled workers.

yeah, I wonder how much of these jobs are taken by Illegals? But hey the GOP is gonna save us from that with a 700 mile fence on a 2000 mile border.


User currently offlineTedTAce From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 1385 times:

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 1):
that the Bush Administration has done very nicely with the economy.

We shall see what happens when homes start to go into foreclosure. The more homes in foreclosure next year, the more money that will be sucked out of this economy in grand fashion.


User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 1383 times:

Quoting Mdsh00 (Reply 6):
This article only shows how much the economy was depending on the housing market, which is now definitely on a downward trend.

Well, the righties dismissed the economy in the 90's under Clinton as nothing but dependent on the "dot-com" boom, so I guess it's only fiar we can safely say this one in larger part was dependent on the "overinflated housing" boom.

Turnaround is fair game.

As for this being a robust economy, it's not. It certainly isn't in large portions of the nation, unlike the boom in the 90's.


User currently offlineGuitrThree From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 2031 posts, RR: 8
Reply 11, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 1373 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
Read it, and you'll see why far too many Republicans in Washington are so removed from reality.

Wow... and the next thing you'll be posting is how Harry Reid's million dollar land deal along with his ability to pay his staff AT THE RITZ CARLTON HOTEL HE LIVES AT with Campaign funds really hits home to my middle class heart. And Ted Kennedy's ability to move a wind farm out of Cape Cod because it makes too much noise around his family 'campus,' really shows me that the Democrats care about us little ones. Oh, and don't forget Al Gore. His 3 houses, big cars, and trips all over the world in his Private Jet while telling me, middle America, that he really get's it.

Should I stop there? Or should I go ahead and mention the other multi-millionaires in the Democratic Party that are so in touch with my daily life. Give me a break Falcon.

The Economy IS good. Sure, the housing market it a big question, but TODAY, all the numbers are good. And much to your detest, the Fed's are keeping the interest rates steady.. so don't look for any bust soon.

Save your daily pandering to the left thread for those that really think the left cares any more than the right. I for one, don't buy it. NO ONE IN THE SENATE OR HOUSE HAS A CLUE ABOUT HOW MIDDLE AMERICA LIVES. I do know one thing, however, any party that cuts my taxes at least is helping me.



As Seen On FlightRadar24! Radar ==> F-KBNA5
User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 1364 times:

The US economy is doing reasonably well in my opinion.

But then that's MY upper middle-class opinion. I've invested wisely and I make very good money and the memories of living hand to mouth, paycheck to paycheck only about 10 years ago are a distant memory.

But I also don't have children. And I'm part of a double-income no-kids family. And I cannot even begin to imagine how a family of four can live on $45,000 a year. So I can't speak for them. But from what I've observed, life's pretty lousy for them and it isn't getting any better.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 11):
NO ONE IN THE SENATE OR HOUSE HAS A CLUE ABOUT HOW MIDDLE AMERICA LIVES. I do know one thing, however, any party that cuts my taxes at least is helping me.

And you've just tapped into why the GOP has won all these years. And why I think it will still win in 2006. At the end of the day, even those Americans who have no beef with gay marriage or abortion or stem cell research or what-have-you vote Republican - because a small percentage change in the tax rate can give them an extra $800 annually. Which may be a mortgage payment. This is something that many Democrats just don't get.


User currently offlineHalls120 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 1356 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 2):
Then why are so many people angry at the Republicans for the state of the economy, Charles?

Because they are generally misinformed about how our economy works. They don't look at their own culpability for making poor economic choices. Blaming or crediting politicians is generally not warranted - at least in the short term.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 4):
Sounds to me that there is an awful lot of propaganda going on trying to convince people that the economy sucks, while in reality Bill Clinton would swear off extra-marital success forever to have had it so good, since the 90's boom was mostly based on the internet boom, while this one has a much wider and more stable base.

If dems were in power, they would be crowing about this economy.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 10):
Well, the righties dismissed the economy in the 90's under Clinton as nothing but dependent on the "dot-com" boom, so I guess it's only fiar we can safely say this one in larger part was dependent on the "overinflated housing" boom.

Turnaround is fair game.

And who "inflated" the housing boom? Buyers and sellers, that's who. The same people who were crowing about double digit gains are now whining about a slight dip in the average selling price, and looking for someone to blame. Everywhere but in the mirror.


User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 1347 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 2):
Then why are so many people angry at the Republicans for the state of the economy, Charles?

I'm kinda late here, but I think that's bullshit. Personally, I'm enjoying the current "economy". I'm grossing over US$100K a year, my stocks (airlines, oil, and few sundry others) are making a killing, I'm not hungry, not thirsty, and I'm warm. I own my own home free and clear, I have a newer vehicle, toys with which to amuse myself (easy AeroWesty . . ), and don't need anything.

Wasn't always that way . . . it took work, it took sacrifice. If anyone's bitching about the economy - and they're middle class - I submit they've done shitty frackin' planning and execution on their quality of life. They are overextended by stupidity. They are overbudget due to ignorance.
It's no longer "the economy stupid" . . .

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 2):
I see the denial extends beyond Washington.

Sure does my friend, 4000 miles northwest to Anchorage . . .

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 9):
We shall see what happens when homes start to go into foreclosure.

The housing bubble is bursting and about to go into the tank . . . once again, proper planning and execution will prevail for those that have their heads outta their asses . . .

Personally, I'm waiting on something to tank around Anchorage that contains 4-8 rental units that I can grab at a steal and put back on the market . . . not to make $$$ but to break even with the rent every month so I can get the write off for any expenses. And it won't be long. The day of the US$300K 2 bedroom ranch in Anchorage is gone. Anchorage went through this twenty years ago, and some of us didn't forget it . . . and know how to exploit it. Again, proper planning and execution.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 10):
Well, the righties dismissed the economy in the 90's under Clinton as nothing but dependent on the "dot-com" boom,

Well it was and Clinton had nothing to do with it . . . the economy is cyclic. Any thinking that it's controlled from the Oval Office is incorrect. Any benefit given to Pres. Clinton for whatever economic boons were shown during his tenure are misplaced. Any credit given to the current administration for economic gains are similary misplaced. The economy is cyclic. Just the weather on this planet . . .   

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 13):
If dems were in power, they would be crowing about this economy.

They'd be absolutely orgasmic . . .

[Edited 2006-10-28 01:39:37]

User currently offlineAndesSMF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 1337 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 10):
Well, the righties dismissed the economy in the 90's under Clinton as nothing but dependent on the "dot-com" boom, so I guess it's only fiar we can safely say this one in larger part was dependent on the "overinflated housing" boom.

I dont remember anyone in the government dismissing the dot.com bubble, after all, it meant TAX $$ for them. The same with the housing bubble, it popped a year ago, but government officials, among others, LOVED the additional tax revenue that the inflated tax prices brought.

This is one of the reasons I dont usually pay attention to the complaints of the political parties not in power. This bubble will hurt many people, most of whom were greedy (40% speculative purchases last year), and the democrats did not take advantage of the issue.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 14):

Wasn't always that way . . . it took work, it took sacrifice. If anyone's bitching about the economy - and they're middle class - I submit they've done shitty frackin' planning and execution on their quality of life. They are overextended by stupidity. They are overbudget due to ignorance.

Those words of yours are one good reason I have you on my RU list. I have a very decent family life as well. Sometimes we think we have been lucky, and then you realize that for the vast majority of people being well off takes a lot of continuous work and good financial planning. There are many examples in my office where friends refinanced their homes to pay for cars, pools, credit cards, etc. We refinanced once, got a 15 year loan, and took 15K to fix the house. We sold the house in 2003 and bought a much nicer and newer home, with a hefty downpayment. I STILL have people think that very rich uncle helped out with the purchase. But no, my wife and I suffered thru many a things to be where we are now.


User currently offlineAirCop From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 1326 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 14):
If anyone's bitching about the economy - and they're middle class - I submit they've done shitty frackin' planning and execution on their quality of life. They are overextended by stupidity. They are overbudget due to ignorance.

Of course there is the exception; families dealing with huge medical bills from a child's life threatening illness; is just one example.
What I find very worrisome is the extreme low rate of savings in the USA;(gotta have now, keeping up with the Jones etc) with more and moreAmericans that will have to depend on 401's for retirement I can see a big crisis lying ahead.


User currently offlineHalls120 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 1322 times:

Quoting AirCop (Reply 16):
Of course there is the exception; families dealing with huge medical bills from a child's life threatening illness; is just one example.

Sorry, but people who start families without first making sure that they will be able to provide for the children they bring into the world suffer from the very same ignorance ANC describes.

Quoting AirCop (Reply 16):
What I find very worrisome is the extreme low rate of savings in the USA;(gotta have now, keeping up with the Jones etc) with more and moreAmericans that will have to depend on 401's for retirement I can see a big crisis lying ahead.

Couldn't agree more. People don't save, they spend to excess, and when they get overextended, they blame the companies who extend them credit for their own lack of discipline.


User currently offlineAirCop From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 1315 times:

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 17):
Sorry, but people who start families without first making sure that they will be able to provide for the children they bring into the world suffer from the very same ignorance ANC describes.

Normally you and I think similar, but in this case I would have to disagree. Sometime things happen that is outside of one's control, for example I have a brother who was in his late 20's when his child got very "sick". Everything was under control, when his employer suddenly shut down, and there went the health plan. New employer insurance company wouldn't insure the child, and several years and nearly million dollars later the child passed away at the age of nine. My brother was quite self supporting, a firm republican, wouldn't ask for public assistance, wasn't living beyond his means (no fancy toys) when disaster struck. My point was that he was doing everything right, but sometimes (please note that word) events happen that are out of our control.
Even today nearly twenty years later he doesn't ask for pity.

[Edited 2006-10-28 03:44:11]

User currently offlineHalls120 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 1302 times:

Quoting AirCop (Reply 18):
Sometime things happen that is outside of one's control, for example I have a brother who was in his late 20's when his child got very "sick". Everything was under control, when his employer suddenly shut down, and there went the health plan. New employer insurance company wouldn't insure the child, and several years and nearly million dollars later the child passed away at the age of nine.

People like your brother aren't the people I'm referring to. I was referring to people who decide to bring children into the world without a steady job, without health insurance, and no savings.

I do feel sorry for people like your brother. He has every reason to be bitter, and yet it sounds like he isn't.


User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 1285 times:

Quoting AirCop (Reply 16):
Of course there is the exception; families dealing with huge medical bills from a child's life threatening illness; is just one example.

Of course, there are exceptions. Overwhelming medical expenses, job cuts (Read That: Outsourcing), etc. I understand. Those are the eaches rather than the norm however.

Americans in general don't save, they just spend, spend, spend. And then they blame their woes on the economy. IF they made more $$$ with their mindset, they'd spend more. It's "not the economy stupid" any longer.

AirCop, you spoke of your brothers circumstance with an ill child . . . my sympathies.

I'll speak of my Brother the Moron . . . hasn't got the sense Goda gave a doorstop. Hasn't got a pot to piss in either. He's an Air Force E6 and married to an Air Force E5 and they spend, spend, waste, waste, spend, spend. Two rugrats and two POS cars, but a $200 pair of sunglasses and a $200 Cell Phone is okay . . . always running short of $ by the end of the month. Now when I do that simple math in my head I see between the two of them they should drag home over US$7000 a month - net. There is NO excuse.


User currently offlineAirCop From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 1276 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 20):
'll speak of my Brother the Moron . . . hasn't got the sense Goda gave a doorstop. Hasn't got a pot to piss in either. He's an Air Force E6 and married to an Air Force E5 and they spend, spend, waste, waste, spend, spend. Two rugrats and two POS cars, but a $200 pair of sunglasses and a $200 Cell Phone is okay . . . always running short of $ by the end of the month. Now when I do that simple math in my head I see between the two of them they should drag home over US$7000 a month - net. There is NO excuse.

Agreed, such a waste..saw the same type when I was in the service, also sounds like my twin (no kids luckly) been a police officer since 1976 and his savings is zero. Try to get him interested in deferred comp wasn't interested, thinks his pension is all that he needs.


User currently offlineCopaair737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 1271 times:

A little OT....
At work there are tons of unwed teenage mothers, who just talk about how they are going to get on WIC and other Gov't programs....
I have an idea...
lets cut the subsidies for them so they can see the scale of their fuck up. If they don't ever learn...they are going to keep doing so...furthering a burden on our society.

Illegal aliens shouldn't get anything for free either. If I went to Mexico, I sure as hell wouldn't be getting free health care or other gov't subsidies the illegal aliens here get. It's ridiculous.

-Copa


User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 1267 times:

Quoting Copaair737 (Reply 22):
lets cut the subsidies for them so they can see the scale of their fuck up.

And disable the pumbing so that little wenches can keep screwin' and spewing out bastard children . . . that MY tax $$$ have to support . . .

[Edited 2006-10-28 07:10:45]

User currently offlineCopaair737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 1264 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 23):
And disable the pumbing so that little wenches can keep screwin' and spewing out bastard children . . . that MY tax $$$ have to support . . .

No kidding. I'm sick of tax money going to subsides for people that are a burden on society. It's time to cut them

-Copa


25 Post contains links Cfalk : That's something I always thought was hilarious in a depressing sort of way. Corporate income tax is based on the income statement, which can be high
26 L-188 : Demoncrats would never go for it....those that aren't able to support themselves are their future votors.
27 AndesSMF : Not even close to be a big problem with government nowadays. What you are neglecting to see is the HUGE amount of waste that goes into government ope
28 Copaair737 : Andes- I agree completely. There are many flaws with the system. Social Security is one The huge bureaucracy is another. however, programs that are ta
29 AndesSMF : I am not denying what you originally said about people taking advantage of the system, but that the system itself is a waste.
30 Post contains images Gilligan : Tell me how many zero's to insert to the right of the decimal point before I can put a real number to visualize just how many of the 300 million in t
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