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Israel's New Political Partner- Tough Times Ahead.  
User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 1704 times:

The Yisrael Beiteinu party ,lead by ultra-hardliner Avigdor Lieberman,will join the government coalition.The move has been approved by the Knesset this morning.
Lieberman will obtain the title of "Minister for Strategic Threats" - now that's a positive,forwardlooking institution who tries to jeopardize any deals between Palestinians and Israelis.
In moments where countries should try to make peace,they install an institution that is set up to do exactly the opposite !
It's like President Moshé Katsav becoming headmaster of a female-run office with good looking employees all over the place.
Why is it that the "only democracy in the Middle East " seems to do all it can to make people disgusted....


Please respect animals - don't eat them...
19 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineCairo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 1689 times:

Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter):
In moments where countries should try to make peace,they install an institution that is set up to do exactly the opposite

The Israeli people overwhelmingly want peace. So do the Americans. And the Iranians.

The Israeli government, however, thrives off conflict. The money every American sends for free to Israel each year might be taken away if Israel achieved peace. Without war-related news, Americans might start to think that America is more important than Israel, which AIPAC is dearly trying to prevent. Israel is a tiny country that would rightfully be seen as insignificant if it didn't exist in a constant state of war.

The biggest power for government is the power of war. With no war Israel gets thrown off the world stage, loses funding, and becomes just another Middle East theocracy.

Cairo


User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 1684 times:

Quoting Cairo (Reply 1):
becomes just another Middle East theocracy.

Last time I checked Israel was still a parliamentary democracy.


User currently offlineCairo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 1665 times:

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 2):
Last time I checked Israel was still a parliamentary democracy

Every American who supports Israel should visit it in person. You would end your democracy claims.

Apartheid does not exist in a democracy.

Democracies do not have 2 classes of citizens with different rights for each.

Democracies aren't created to provide a religious homeleand (like Israel); they are created to accurately represent the wishes of the majority of people living in a land (unlike Israel).

BTW, DTWclipper, what is the basis of your staunchly pro-Israeli views? Does your religion suggest support for Israel?

Cairo


User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 1653 times:

Quoting Cairo (Reply 3):
Every American who supports Israel should visit it in person

Been there, thanks.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 3):
DTWclipper, what is the basis of your staunchly pro-Israeli views? Does your religion suggest support for Israel?

I will never be 100% behind the moves and motives of the Israeli government. I think they have made many mistakes over the years, and are as culpable as the rest of the bunch. I believe the propaganda emanating from both sides does more harm then good to any hope of a realistic solution.

Religion for me has nothing to do with my opinion.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 3):
Apartheid does not exist in a democracy.

These comments are beneath you, and are not worth giving you facts. We can both bolster our sides with sources, but neither of us will be happy the results....I think we can agree on that.


User currently offlineRJpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 1647 times:

Quoting Cairo (Reply 3):
Every American who supports Israel should visit it in person. You would end your democracy claims.

Most of the staunchest American supporters of Israel are people who travel there quite regularly (politicians, pundits, etc).

Quoting Cairo (Reply 3):
Democracies aren't created to provide a religious homeleand (like Israel);

Oh, was not the United States created to be a religious homeland? The United States and Israel have so much in common in that regard--both are immigrant nations that built free democracies from scratch.


User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 6, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 1647 times:

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 2):
I checked Israel was

I also checked and found this under www.wikipedia :
-
Jewish state
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
--
The term "Jewish State" is sometimes used to describe the State of Israel and refers to its status as a nation-state for the Jewish people. This concept of an ethnic Jewish homeland is enshrined in Israeli national policy and reflected in many of Israel's public institutions. The concept was codified in the Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel on 14 May 1948 as well as in the Law of Return, which was passed by the Knesset on 5 July 1950, and stated "Every Jew has the right to come to this country as an oleh," an "oleh" being a Jewish immigrant.[1] This is intended to make citizenship easier to acquire for
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Jewish state or a state of Jews?
There has been growing debate in Israel on the character of the state, if it should enshrine more Jewish culture, encourage Judaism in schools, enshrine certain laws of Kashrut and Sabbath observance within Israel. This debate reflects a historical divide within Zionism and among the Jewish citizens of Israel, which has large secular and traditional/Orthodox minorities as well as a majority which lies somewhere between the two.
-
Secular Zionism, the historically dominant stream, is rooted in a concept of the Jews as a people and in a concept of international law as premised on the self-determination of peoples through the nation-state structure. Another reason sometimes submitted for such establishment was to have a state where Jews would not be afraid of anti-Semitic attacks and live in peace, although such a reason is not a requirement of the self-determination right and therefore subsidiary to it in secular Zionist thinking.
-
Religious Zionists, who believe religious beliefs and traditional practices are central to Jewish peoplehood, counter that assimilating to be a secular "nation like any other" would be oxymoronic in nature, and do more to harm than to help the Jewish people. They seek instead to establish what they see as an "authentic Jewish commonwealth" which preserves and encourages Jewish heritage.[1] Drawing an analogy to diaspora Jews who assimilated into other cultures and abandoned Jewish culture, whether voluntary or otherwise, they argue that the creation of a secular state in Israel is tantamount to establishing a state where Jews assimilate en masse as a nation, and therefore anathema to what they view as Jewish national aspirations. Zionism is rooted in a concept of the Jews as a nation, in this capacity, they believe that Israel has a mandate to promote Judaism, to be the center of Jewish culture and center of its population, perhaps even the sole legitimate representative of Jews worldwide.
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Advocates of Israel becoming a more narrowly Jewish commonwealth face at least the following practical and theoretical difficulties:
1. How to deal with the non-Jewish Arab minority in Israel (and the non-Jewish majority in the West Bank and Gaza).
2. How to alleviate concerns of Jews in Israel who favor a relatively secular state. [2]
3. What relationship should official Judaism hold vis-�-vis the Government of Israel and vice versa? [3]
4. What role do schools play in supporting Jewish heritage, religion, culture, and state?[4]
5. How will the government be organized (theocracy, constitutional theocracy, constitutional republic, parliamentary democracy etc.)?[5]
6. Should the Justice system be based on secular common law, secular civil law, a combination of Jewish and common law, a combination of Jewish and civil law, or pure Jewish law?[6]
-
...............................................................................................
-
-
Interesting in a way. While being a democracy INTERNALLY, it is Jewish rule by principle EXTERNALLY .
-


User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 7, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 1647 times:

One could start to spend some serious philosophical thought about the term democracy...
While I agree that currently there is no better way to run a country,"democracy" is a pretty strange subject,since only people with money have true access to all the benefits of democracy...
-you have trouble with the law-without money you can't buy the right attorney to defend you.
-without money you can't voice your opinion
-you feel mis-represented by the parties in the parliament- without a 5% vote no newly created party -in many countries- will access to any seats
-you are a poor immigrant somewhere and crime hits you- good luck to find anybody who believes what you say and still fewer people will defend your cause..
-your country is run by a bunch of rotten ,vicious business-maker who exploit the system- no way to get rid of them without awaiting the next elections.But since they probably have the money to buy votes,chances are,they will be voted in again..
-one world-leader starts a war based on fake allegations by it's spy-agency-thousands of people are killed-where is the democracy ?
-political leaders sell their support to industrial lobby-groups ,lending their influence (Health is a typical application,defence,building of social homes,research budgets..) to pass new laws,that are beneficial to those lobby-groups -where's the democracy ?
-our democratic system in Europe has never allowed to spend any funds in research for alternative medicine,taking granted ,that for example Cancer can only be cured with allopatic medicine or radiation.That is s completely wrong path to follow ..Billions of Dollars are spend on research that benefit mainly large pharmaceutical companies and disregard alternative means of treatment.
-Our western democratic system allows multinational companies to sell sterile seeds into third-world countries,depriving those farmers from fertile seeds and obliging them to buy each year new ,sterile hybrid seeds.This is a major scandal but the public is unaware of this ...
-If democracy is the tool for the powerful and wealthy to dominate the third-world-than I think there 's something wrong with the system !

If you analyse the "western" democratic system to the lesser African or Asian Systems,I have found out they are as bad one like the other,with one big difference : the western democracies are better wrapped in gift-paper and sold more intelligently on the media.
Yes-we have the choice to vote for several parties -but who's behind those parties ????
The more you scratch the surface and go after the real picture,the less you are impressed with out politicians....
I prefer a good ,intelligent king/sultan/emperor/Zar with power to a bad parliament anytime...



Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlineQR332 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 1623 times:

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 5):
Oh, was not the United States created to be a religious homeland? The United States and Israel have so much in common in that regard--both are immigrant nations that built free democracies from scratch.

And they both wiped out or significantly reduced the native population in the process... but, the US does not give preference for one religion over the other, while Israel does; a Jew can obtain citizenship very easily while most non-Jews, especially Arabs, will find it extremely difficult.

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 7):
If you analyse the "western" democratic system to the lesser African or Asian Systems,I have found out they are as bad one like the other,with one big difference : the western democracies are better wrapped in gift-paper and sold more intelligently on the media.
Yes-we have the choice to vote for several parties -but who's behind those parties ????
The more you scratch the surface and go after the real picture,the less you are impressed with out politicians....
I prefer a good ,intelligent king/sultan/emperor/Zar with power to a bad parliament anytime...

Excellent post... I think that while democracy is in theory an excellent idea, in practice time and time again we have seen that it is manipulated quite easily; just look at the US, and the whole Iraq fiasco; there wasn't even any real outcry about it, and hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis later, nothing has changed.


User currently offlineLY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 10
Reply 9, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1594 times:

Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter):
Lieberman will obtain the title of "Minister for Strategic Threats" - now that's a positive,forwardlooking institution who tries to jeopardize any deals between Palestinians and Israelis.

Hard to tell where the facts in that sentence end and where your interpretation starts. Clever. Fiendishly clever.

Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter):
It's like President Moshé Katsav becoming headmaster of a female-run office with good looking employees all over the place.

That's so relevant to the topic (?) at hand.

Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter):
Why is it that the "only democracy in the Middle East " seems to do all it can to make people disgusted....

I think they're out to get you, it's as simple as that.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 3):
Democracies aren't created to provide a religious homeleand

For the umpteenth time, Jews are more than a relligious group, they are a nationality. You know how I know? Because if the French or the Germans have their own country so should the Jews. Nationality is all about cultural identity, not race. Race is a joke, it doesn't exist, it's a fabrication of people's imagination. Only cutlure determines what group someone belongs to, and the Jews have cultural uniqueness, hence, they are a nationality. Their culture happens to ENCOMPASS religion, while for most other western societies religion is an outside attribute of every individual member. It doesn't matter, because, guess what, religion is just as made up as race is. Deal with it.


LY744.



Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
User currently offlineDougloid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1591 times:

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 6):
Interesting in a way. While being a democracy INTERNALLY, it is Jewish rule by principle EXTERNALLY .

Ummmmmmm, wikipedia is wide open to people writing anything they care to on any subject they like, no matter how uninformed. It's not source material although interesting and informative at times. When my students cite to wikipedia to support a proposition they get a zero because they should know better.

Don't make the mistake of thinking something is valid because you agree with it. In the interests of discussion y'see.

Why are youse guys so interested in Israeli politics anyway, seeing as Israel doesn't exist?


User currently offlineCairo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 1559 times:

Quoting LY744 (Reply 9):
Because if the French or the Germans have their own country so should the Jews.

1. No one argues that the French and Germans "deserve" their own country: we argue rather that they are proper democracies that represent the will of their citizens and therefore are legitimate. Israel is none of these things.

2. France and Germany have evolved over 1000s of years of European history to arrive at the state they are in today with little immigration necessary to make them exist. France has always been France, even when occupied by the Germans or Romans. The many German states that united from the Holy Roman Empire all more or less voluntarily came together to form Germany.

Israel was created <60 years ago without the permission of the majority of the people living there and the Jews in Israel are overwhelmingly immigrants from other nations brought in to bolster the artificial Jewish state.

3. France and Germany are viable nations that can stand on their owm. Israel is like South Vietnam, Iraq, Taiwan, the Shah's Iran or Batista's Cuba - an artificially intact state that can only go on through American subsidies. Like all the other examples, this only leads to disaster for America.

Quoting LY744 (Reply 9):
For the umpteenth time, Jews are more than a relligious group, they are a nationality.

Straight out of whatever you learned in school today. Call us back when you get to the real world and have original non-pedantic thoughts.

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 4):
Been there, thanks.

To the Palestinian territories? To where?

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 5):
Most of the staunchest American supporters of Israel are people who travel there quite regularly (politicians, pundits, etc).

Very true. Most of the biggest fans of Disney World are the people who travel there quite regularly. They aren't the best judges of its character.

No one who is sane and neutral or simply doesn't care wants to visit Israel because it is a war zone subject to endless terrorism

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 5):
Oh, was not the United States created to be a religious homeland?

Not quite. But even in freshman history where this is taught, one must realize that this was 220+ years ago when many things were wrong with America and it wasn't a true democracy. BUT, yes, Israel operates very much like a typical Middle East theocracy which is similar to how some western Christian governments operated 200 years ago.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 10):
Why are youse guys so interested in Israeli politics anyway,

Because part of every paycheck I have ever earned gets sent straight to Israel with no repayment provision and yet I have zero say in how Israel is run. I'm taxed to pay Israel to kill Muslims, this makes me a terrorist target everywhere in the world. This is why I am interested.

Cairo


User currently offlineDougloid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1549 times:

Quoting Cairo (Reply 11):
Quoting Dougloid (Reply 10):
Why are youse guys so interested in Israeli politics anyway,

Because part of every paycheck I have ever earned gets sent straight to Israel with no repayment provision and yet I have zero say in how Israel is run. I'm taxed to pay Israel to kill Muslims, this makes me a terrorist target everywhere in the world. This is why I am interested.

You and I have zero say in how Israel is run for the same reason you and I have zero say in how Egypt is run, even though Egypt gets about as much foreign military aid from the US as Israel does. It's a foreign country. They don't belong to the United States. There's no Egypt or Israel County, Texas-(although there is a Palestine even though they pronounce it Pales-teen). Quite simply, our writ does not run far in either country-neither of them is carrying water for Uncle Sugar.

And another point of information. The amount spent on foreign aid out of the total budget is miniscule. It's about 20 billion USD, when the entire budget is about 2.34 trillion USD. That means of every $1,000 you pay in taxes, less than a buck goes to foreign aid, and of that buck maybe ten cents goes to Israel and another ten cents to Egypt.

I don't see the connection, anyway. It's a delusion. I mean, go anywhere in the world and show me a country where the citizens get to decide where their tax dollars go? Joan Baez made the same argument years ago and it got her nowhere. It's the deadest of dead horses. On the other hand, you could take a principled stand, not pay that part of your taxes (although proportionally it is miniscule) and go to prison. And I'd picket the place with a Free Cairo! sign.

There is a way you deal with this here in this country. It's called "Getting In Touch With Your Legislators". What specifically have you done about that?
You've said that every paycheck you ever got you were taxed and didn't like much where it went-that tells me you've been in the states for a while, and that tells me you know a little about how this country works, if you paid attention in school.

Because, I mean, bitching on a chat board may make you feel better but it doesn't get you further down the road. It's like pissing your pants in a dark suit-you feel nice and warm but nobody notices. Chances are, with all this grief your life's some better than it might be in Egypt, right? Because you're here, and not there.

On the other hand, if you had the courage of your convictions you could put down your books and pick up a gun and go fight the fight you think ought to be fought, too. Nothing's stopping you. Anything else is idle chatter and coffee shop bullshit, right?

And sympathy for murderers will not improve your karma, whether you like what they stand for or not. There's no middle ground and no room for equivocation here.

That's the way it looks from here.


User currently offlineCairo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1539 times:

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 12):
The amount spent on foreign aid out of the total budget is miniscule.

Since I've been paying taxes, it has been $5,700 sent to Israel from every man, woman and child in America.* It is a tremendous amount Israel has taken - more than 1.6 trillion dollars.

The 3 to 4 billion dollars that America is sending each year to Israel to kill Muslims could give maybe 300,000 American kids free college tuition EVERY YEAR. I am 100% sure that given the choice, Americans would choose investing in their own kids over Israel. But the politicians are bribed by AIPAC** and people like you buy the rhetoric that it is a 'miniscule' amount.

This number is not miniscule - it is so big, in fact, it keeps Israel alive and is something they fight, lie and bribe for.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 12):
You and I have zero say in how Israel is run for the same reason you and I have zero say in how Egypt is run

That is the problem. Long term non-humanitarian aid is wrong because it creates these scenarios of taxation without representation. I've paid more taxes to Israel than young Israelis.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 12):
What specifically have you done about that?

I today or in the past support/have supported Pat Buchanan's effort to call attention to Israel's hijacking of American foreign policy***, I've supported Amnesty International's effort to reveal the state of Israel's treatment of the Palestinians - and most of all I vote for politicians that put US policies first. (support = $)

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 12):
Because, I mean, bitching on a chat board may make you feel better but it doesn't get you further down the road. Chances are, with all this grief your life's some better than it might be in Egypt, right? Because you're here, and not there.

I'm in Egypt. Raising issues on a chat board DOES do a small part - these threads are viewed by as many as 1000 people and if you do a google search on random subjects you often get sent to an airliner thread. I'll forget for a moment the hypocrisy in your lecture about posting on internet threads.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 12):
And sympathy for murderers will not improve your karma

I have no sympathy for the murderers: which in the context of this discussion are usually Israelis and their American masters. The sum of all Islamic terrorism has killed nowhere near as many civilians as America and its primary client state.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 12):
There's no middle ground

...for the weak minded.

To the thinking world, there is no one side to blame, no side that is 100% right or wrong, and no political party or government regime that is either always right nor always to blame. In general, each side is mostly responsible for their own problems, but everyone has had a hand in the disaster that looms in the ME.

Cairo

*
http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/1209/p16s01-wmgn.html

**
http://www.washington-report.org/html/aipac.htm

***
http://www.amconmag.com/03_24_03/cover.html


User currently offlineCsavel From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 1360 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 1525 times:

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 5):
was not the United States created to be a religious homeland?

Actually, no, the US was created for many reasons, and religious freedom was one of them, but hell, no it wasn't created to be a religious homeland for anyone, just a homeland where anyone can practice whatever religion he or she believed in, a BIG difference.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 5):
both are immigrant nations that built free democracies from scratch

Both also built them in places that were previously occupied. I think both need to recognize that and deal with it. Attention must be paid to the legitimate grievances of the native inhabitants of both places.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 6):
as a nation-state for the Jewish people



Quoting Cairo (Reply 11):
Jews are more than a relligious group, they are a nationality.

As a Jew that always irritated me, because almost as much as David Duke anti-Semites, it makes me feel a stranger or a guest in my own country. my nation-state is the US, for better or worse (and now is one of its;"worst" times but that is another flamefest) I am a Jew,and pround of it,but my nationality is US, end of discussion.

Sorry, but I truly resent when any Israeli politician (or Israeli for that matter) says the Jewish people when he should say the Israeli people, Arial Sharon did that all the time, - he doesn't speak for me.



I may be ugly. I may be an American. But don't call me an ugly American.
User currently offlineCairo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 1522 times:

Quoting Csavel (Reply 14):
Attention must be paid to the legitimate grievances of the native inhabitants of both places.

Amazing idea!

Quoting Csavel (Reply 14):
I am a Jew,and pround of it,but my nationality is US,



Quoting Csavel (Reply 14):
he doesn't speak for me.

You are absolutely brave for saying all this. Some people on this board and in Israel consider you almost treasonous for suggesting the Palestinians have legitimate gripes. You and people who are Jewish that accept that the circumstances of Israel's birth immediately created a legitimate problem for the Palestinians should speak up more often.

Cairo


User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 16, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 1507 times:

Quoting LY744 (Reply 9):
Lieberman will obtain the title of "Minister for Strategic Threats" - now that's a positive,forwardlooking institution who tries to jeopardize any deals between Palestinians and Israelis.
---
Hard to tell where the facts in that sentence end and where your interpretation starts. Clever. Fiendishly clever.

I frankly spoken find it confusing. What really is the position of this Mr Liebermann ? Is he really totally against ANY return of Palestinian lands ?

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 10):
While being a democracy INTERNALLY, it is Jewish rule by principle EXTERNALLY .
--
Ummmmmmm, wikipedia is wide open to people writing anything they care to on any subject they like, no matter how uninformed. It's not source material although interesting and informative at times. When my students cite to wikipedia to support a proposition they get a zero because they should know better.

-
Please be aware that my "conclusion" in that particular sentence above is just MY personal impression and NOT from Wikipedia. I therefore made a clear division line in my post. I btw. looked through a variety of sources on the web, and found this to be an objective unbiased one. No lexica and no dictionary can be always correct, as also the best of scholars may make a mistake, that is why one of my teacher I still remember simply told us NOT to cite lexica or dictionaries, to use them but always to realize that something A) may be wrong, B) out of date or C) not applicable under the relevant circumstances

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 10):
interested in Israeli politics anyway, seeing as Israel doesn't exist?

Israel doesn't exist ? Israel in the 1948-67 borders is accepted and recognized

Quoting Csavel (Reply 14):
Jews are more than a relligious group, they are a nationality.
--
As a Jew that always irritated me, because almost as much as David Duke anti-Semites, it makes me feel a stranger or a guest in my own country. my nation-state is the US, for better or worse (and now is one of its;"worst" times but that is another flamefest) I am a Jew,and pround of it,but my nationality is US, end of discussion.

-
while the two terms "Jewish nation" (often used by ISraeli leaders unfortunately) and "Israeli nation" can be confusing under many circumstances. Also Jews in Europe then have to make it clear again and again that they do NOT feel to be "members" of such a "nation" but are citizens of where they are
-


User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 17, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 1489 times:

The new cabinet-member Lieberman seems to love mock-attacks on Beirut as an entry-show of power...
If some still believe Israel is a country like any other - it's about time they wake up !Those demonstrations of power and supremacy will create just the effect of turning the rest of the civilized world-community against Israel.
This is an absolutely ridicoulous and childish way to prove a deep rooted complex of being superior to others.
Amazing that grown up politicians and military leaders fall into this trap ..


http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/world/4299084.html



Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 18, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1473 times:

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 17):
to love mock-attacks on Beirut as an entry-show of power...
If some still believe Israel is a country like any other - it's about time they wake up !Those demonstrations of power and supremacy will create just the effect of turning the rest of the civilized world-community against Israel.

with the unlimited support of the only superpower in the world they of course can afford such primitive low-level Rambo-tactics and Rambo-shows ! This is why the procurement of anti-aircraft missiles and both ground attack fighters and fighter-bombers by Lebanon for its armed forces is so urgent. The Lebanese of course canNOT hope to "equalize" the IDF and in case of encounters the Lebanese airforce pilots have to be careful to avoid a direct confrontation, BUT to have at least somewhat of a deterrent force and the existence of airplanes "covering" their movements may reduce the Israeli Rambo show-ups.


User currently offlineDougloid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1461 times:

Quoting Cairo (Reply 13):
uoting Dougloid (Reply 12):
The amount spent on foreign aid out of the total budget is miniscule.

Since I've been paying taxes, it has been $5,700 sent to Israel from every man, woman and child in America.* It is a tremendous amount Israel has taken - more than 1.6 trillion dollars.

The 3 to 4 billion dollars that America is sending each year to Israel to kill Muslims could give maybe 300,000 American kids free college tuition EVERY YEAR. I am 100% sure that given the choice, Americans would choose investing in their own kids over Israel. But the politicians are bribed by AIPAC** and people like you buy the rhetoric that it is a 'miniscule' amount.

This number is not miniscule - it is so big, in fact, it keeps Israel alive and is something they fight, lie and bribe for.

As a matter of information I got my figures from the US government. There's a significant difference between us, but I am sure you will find that last year, my figures were about right. And that comes out to ten cents to Israel for every $1,000 you pay in taxes to the US government. It's best to get your numbers from the Congressional Budget Office.

I'm a little confused about your citizenship too, although that shouldn't really matter. You list DFW and CAI....where do you call home? Who do you work for? How is it that you are burdened with taxes in a country where you are not a resident? Because if you're an American working in Egypt, you're paying no taxes anyway. So how's that work?

Quoting Cairo (Reply 13):
To the thinking world, there is no one side to blame, no side that is 100% right or wrong, and no political party or government regime that is either always right nor always to blame. In general, each side is mostly responsible for their own problems, but everyone has had a hand in the disaster that looms in the ME.

I can agree with this, because that IS the bottom line.-however, I do not believe in an apocalyptic vision for the middle east. The disaster is already there.

With respect to Amnesty International and Pat Buchanan...they are marginal voices and nobody in our government takes them any more seriously than PETA. It's far better to write letters to your legislators and meet with them when they're in the district on breaks. (phone calls and emails don't count) I have no trouble communicating my views to our senators or representatives here and neither should you-it has a powerful effect on legislators. Another good vehicle is doing Op-Ed pieces for the local papers-have you tried that?

As for the rest of it-that's what makes for horse races and lawsuits, right?


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