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Those Lost On Sept 11th: "Heroes" Or "Victims"?  
User currently offlineCedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 8124 posts, RR: 54
Posted (12 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1173 times:

I know this is going to piss a lot of people off but I am a little fed up with everyone who lost their lives on Sept 11th being called a "hero" ("A Tribute To Heroes" - what the hell was THAT?). A close school-friend of mine lost her husband of 11 months in the south tower so I'm not unaffected by the tragedy (even in the UK you don't need to look very hard to find someone who knew someone etc...). But with the exception of the firefighters and a few others, those poor souls who lost their lives were VICTIMS, not HEROES. Calling ALL OF THEM heroes I think detracts from those whose actions were (on that day or any other time of trouble) genuinely heroic. It's almost like the HERO thing is being offered as a consolation prize, and there's something patronising about it, as well as the aforementioned way it detracts from those who really were heroes.

Any thoughts?


fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
16 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineJoona From Finland, joined May 2001, 1038 posts, RR: 10
Reply 1, posted (12 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1145 times:

I agree, working and later dying in the WTC definitely doesn't make you a hero. I'm also tired of this.

Now I'm probably going to be called an Anti-US-American.

Joona



1740 days idle. Beat that.
User currently offlineHeavymetal From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (12 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1141 times:

I can see your point, Cedar.

I think people are tossing around "hero" rhetorically just because we're all still so numb and we need comfort when we start to ponder the vast numbers of Americans killed in just a few hours.

There's no question the level of what we traditionally think of as 'heroism'... between a firefighter going back into the second tower after the first collapsed and say, a receptionist watching one of those jets head straight for her windowpane...is a credible difference. But in a way, they're war dead....they died on an American battlefield. I guess that's where people make the link.

Whether stockbroker or firefighter, though, they're all victims. Victims of evil men. That much is not arguable.


User currently offlineBA777 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 2179 posts, RR: 7
Reply 3, posted (12 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1138 times:

http://www.banews.f2s.com/tribute.htm

Only my opinion...

BA777  Smile/happy/getting dizzy


User currently offlineCedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 8124 posts, RR: 54
Reply 4, posted (12 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1138 times:

BA777, nice one. I won't get over seeing that shit happen on TV for years if ever. Don't want my comments above to detract from the horror of what happened, your webpage is a simple and honest expression of what we all felt and still feel. I guess the "hero" label is a defence mechanism or whatever. It still gets on my tits though!


fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
User currently offlineIainhol From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (12 years 10 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 1122 times:

Cedarjet, it done as a tribute to people who passed away, probably many of them died slowly, and painfully. Although it is not the correct use of the words, I feel these people do diserve an honorary title!
Iain


User currently offlineJwenting From Netherlands, joined Apr 2001, 10213 posts, RR: 18
Reply 6, posted (12 years 10 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 1110 times:

some are heroes, like the firemen and police officers (and not just those who died), but most are victims (like the people on those aircraft).


I wish I were flying
User currently offlinePROSA From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5644 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (12 years 10 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 1105 times:

There's no question the level of what we traditionally think of as 'heroism'... between a firefighter going back into the second tower after the first collapsed and say, a receptionist watching one of those jets head straight for her windowpane...is a credible difference

It's not certain if any firefighters went into the north tower after the south tower collapsed. What is known is that a large number of them had assembled at about the 35th floor of the north tower, preparing to head higher up, when the south tower fell. They were ordered to get out of the tower ASAP, and just barely made it before the north tower came down.
Most FDNY (and possibly NYPD and PAPD) deaths occured when the south tower fell. It's difficult to determine whether their actions constituted heroism. Going into a burning building of course requires a lot of courage under any circumstances, but the question is whether anyone expected the tower to fall. It seems to be the consensus that the FDNY commanders (many of whom died) did believe there was a chance that the tower would come down, but thought that would not happen for several hours. So I suppose you could say that the emergency personnel who died in the south tower were acting bravely, no doubt about that, but did not realize just how great the risk really was. Can you call that heroism? I suppose that depends.
At any rate, I consider the hero-or-victim issue rather unimportant. The people who died on September 11 died tragically. It didn't matter how bravely they acted, the end result was the same.



"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
User currently offlineDash80 From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 187 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (12 years 10 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 1093 times:

Police Officers, Firefighters, EMTs--Heros
WTC workers--victims


User currently offlineOPTIPLEX2001 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (12 years 10 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 1086 times:

A tribute to hereos was about the firefighters, police officers, everyone helping. DUH!

User currently offlineThe Paul From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (12 years 10 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 1082 times:

Cedarjet,

I haven't heard many call all the victims of WTC heroes. They are mostly referring to the police, firefighters, and civilians who saved lives while risking/giving their own.


User currently offlineRyu2 From Taiwan, joined Aug 2002, 493 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (12 years 10 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 1079 times:

I believe that most of the people on UA 93 should also deserve the hero title for what they did to prevent the plane from crashing into Washington or somewhere else important.

User currently offlineVirginA340 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 15 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (12 years 10 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 1075 times:

Here is my opinon

FDNY/EMS, NYPD, PAPD, UA flight 93 heros.

The workers in the WTC victims/heros. Rember that many of those 3,000 plus died trying to save lives. Ditto for the Pentagon. You should've seen the video of the Pentagon employees rush back into the building to save the other workers. If it wasn't for them the toll at the Pentagon would be more than 200.

It's still amazing that thanks to those who saed lives and to those who died trying more than 30,000 got out (two thirds) and less than a 3rd didn't 3400. But had the terrorists hit an hour later or had those people not become eors there would be more deaths. Daily news and the city was predicitng over 10,000 dead. The City of NY actually oredered 30,000 body bags bercause they thoguht the toll was so high. But the city is still sorting out the duplicates.

The AP has said the the death toll was less than 3,000 Hopefully they are correct, NYC has issued over 1800 death certificates. NJ around 750.



"FUIMUS"
User currently offlineThe Paul From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (12 years 10 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 1062 times:

I believe that most of the people on UA 93 should also deserve the hero title for what they did to prevent the plane from crashing into Washington or somewhere else important.

Yes definitely, they probably saved the Whitehouse.

Talking about all this and the heroes makes me cry.

We will never forget the heroes of Flight 93:











 Crying  Crying  Crying


User currently offlineVirginA340 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 15 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (12 years 10 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 1050 times:

when I was a volunteer firefighter on the two years I served with FDNY we would say this prayer enroute to a call.

The Firefighter's Prayer

When I am called to duty,
Wherever flames may rage,
Give me the strength to save a life
Whatever be it's age.

Help me embrace a little child
Before it's toolate,
Or save an older person from
The horrors of that fate.

Enable me to be alert
And to hear the weakest shout,
and quickly and efficiently
to put the fire out.

I want to fill my calling and
To give the best in me,
To guard my every neighbor and
Protect his property.

And if according to God's will
I must answer death's call
bless with your protecting hand,
my family one and all.




"FUIMUS"
User currently offlinePROSA From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5644 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (12 years 10 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 1043 times:

One afternoon in late September, I was walking past a police precinct station in Manhattan. Walking behind me was a girl about eight or nine years of age, and a 40-ish man, presumably her father.
The girl asked her father about all the sheets of paper that were taped to the front of the station house. He told her they were letters thanking the police for all they did on September 11th. With the innocence only a child could have, the girl said "But why thank them? Weren't they just doing their jobs, what they had to do?"
I didn't hear Dad's reply, but when I turned around a few seconds later, he didn't look happy.



"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
User currently offlineVirginA340 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 15 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (12 years 10 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 1038 times:

I bet she will not be seeing tv for a week  Wink/being sarcastic But id I were him i'd show her every news and magazine photo of the WTC collapse and take her to a funeral or two of a fireman or cop and then go meet them at a firehouse or precinct. Thne she'll see why they deserve more than thanks. I personally think they all diserve raises. It irks me that a Stock brockers makes over $100,000 but a cop/firemen only gets $35,000-$40,000 and yet you don't see stockbrokers rushing into a burning building or making risky traffic stops. The emergency service personel deserves better!


"FUIMUS"
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