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Iraq Isn't Really The GOPs Fault  
User currently offlineSpeedbird747BA From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 9 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 1659 times:

This is how I see it. The reason there is all this secular violence in Iraq is Saddam (a Sunni) kept his foot on the heads of the majority Shi'ites. All the government leaders and military commanders were Sunni. Now that the Shi'ites are liberated, they are going back after the Sunnis, who are still trying to keep their foot in the Shi'ites. This being the Middle East, of course it has led to violence. Now, America (and inevitably, Bush) slots into this in the middle. So, we have Sunnis going after Shi'ites and Americans, and Shi'ites going after Sunnis and Americans.

And, now, we need a way to fix this. Here is where things get heated. I suggest that we let the Iraqi security forces do the job, and we bug out in a year, a year and a half. All that time, we get the Iraqis ready. Then, we pull out in areas, Baghdad being last. I hope we can trust the Iraqis, but that is up to them. It all hinges on whether Iraqis think about themselves or their country.

Let the Discussion Begin!!!

Cheers,
Kyle

[Edited 2006-11-02 22:59:32]

71 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDrDeke From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 830 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (7 years 9 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 1659 times:

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Thread starter):
secular violence

How exactly is it secular violence when the groups who are fighting are religious sects and they are fighting because of religious differences?

-DrDeke



If you don't want it known, don't say it on a phone.
User currently offlineSpeedbird747BA From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 9 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 1649 times:

Quoting DrDeke (Reply 1):
How exactly is it secular violence when the groups who are fighting are religious sects and they are fighting because of religious differences?

The Sunni/Shi'ite difference started way back, not long after Mohammed. It was a difference between Caliphates, one wanted one, they got it, the others were mad, they broke apart, and now that is the difference.

Cheers,
Kyle


User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (7 years 9 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 1639 times:

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Thread starter):
secular violence

Do you mean 'sectarian violence'?


User currently offlineBushpilot From South Africa, joined Jul 2007, 0 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (7 years 9 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 1640 times:

Its a novel idea that probably will lead straight to more killing, continued civil war, of which we need to wake up and come to terms that Iraq has an ongoing civil war. But this will lead to genocide.

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Thread starter):
I suggest that we let the Iraqi security forces do the job

The Iraqi forces are corrupt from the top. Iraq PM Al-Maliki is supported by Sadr, and it is Sadr's Mahdi Militia that is perpotrating most of this violence. It is more or less being condoned by the Prime Minister of Iraq. He is not interested in stopping it, and doesnt want the Americans to leave.

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Thread starter):
All that time, we get the Iraqis ready

We have been working towards that for the last 2 years, I dont think they will be at all seriously ready in 5 years.

We need to get the hell out. It is a matter of if we leave it worse than when we showed up. We need to give Iraqis real jobs, that right now are either not getting done or are being done very expensively by western contractors. We are in an unwinnable situation.


User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (7 years 9 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1640 times:

Sorry, I can't defend Bush on this one. This is ULTIMATELY his fault. He is the CINC, he has, in that light, placed too much faith in that dictatorial overbearing ego-manical geezer he has heading the DoD, and refused to listen to anyone else regarding Iraq.

Iraq's initial invasion was and will remain textbook. A Classic kick ass, take names, ground assault spearheaded by the 7th Cav . . . . absolutely textbook.

The post invasion activity will go down in history in the textbooks as well. As "HOW TO FUCK UP A PERFECTLY GOOD INVASION".

Now because of this non-plan, this no frackin' idea what to do now, do it on the cheap, use only 1 Division in the attack, mentality of the DoD - read that Donald Rumsfeld - we have religious violence that is killing THOUSANDS. I said it before, I say it again - and damnit, I hate retaking old terrain - it's the RELIGION factor. Remove that, and these people would sit down and discuss things for a bit rather than blowing the shit out of each other . . . .

IT'S RELIGION PEOPLE!!!


User currently offlineSpeedbird747BA From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (7 years 9 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1640 times:

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 3):
sectarian

AHA!!!!!!!!!!! i knew i was using the wrong word..........

Thanks

Cheers,
Kyle


User currently offlineBoeing Nut From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (7 years 9 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1631 times:

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Thread starter):
Iraq Isn't Really The GOPs Fault

I want some of whatever it is you're smokin'.................


User currently offlineDelta767300ER From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2562 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (7 years 9 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1631 times:

I think we should merge Iraq with Iran and call the new country "Irate". 

-Delta767300ER

[Edited 2006-11-02 23:05:58]

User currently offlineSpeedbird747BA From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (7 years 9 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1621 times:

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 4):
The Iraqi forces are corrupt from the top

Yes.

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 4):
He is not interested in stopping it,

Sounds a bit like Saddam, eh?

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 5):
Now because of this non-plan, this no frackin' idea what to do now, do it on the cheap, use only 1 Division in the attack, mentality of the DoD - read that Donald Rumsfeld - we have religious violence that is killing THOUSANDS. I said it before, I say it again - and damnit, I hate retaking old terrain - it's the RELIGION factor. Remove that, and these people would sit down and discuss things for a bit rather than blowing the shit out of each other . . . .

IT'S RELIGION PEOPLE!!!

Exaclty. Not Bush's fault. The reason it was cheap is because of lack of funds.

Cheers,
Kyle


User currently offlineSpeedbird747BA From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (7 years 9 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1621 times:

Quoting Delta767300ER (Reply 8):
I think we should merge Iraq with Iran and call the new country "Irate".

Hehehehehehe......clever idea!

Cheers,
Kyle


User currently offlineJakeOrion From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1253 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (7 years 9 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1612 times:

Speedbird747BA brings up an interesting point though. There is NOTHING else the US/World can do for them. It should be up the the Iraqi people to decide to end the violence. We've done all we can to help them, now we should pull out.


Every problem has a simple solution; finding the simple solution is the difficult problem.
User currently offlineJpetekYXMD80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 4382 posts, RR: 27
Reply 12, posted (7 years 9 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1612 times:

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Reply 9):

Exaclty. Not Bush's fault. The reason it was cheap is because of lack of funds.

What the hell man? Whatever happened to the concept of Presidential accountability in this country? Stop trying to paint Bush like Congress (throwing the blame anywhere else).

Realize the power the President has, and with the title of being 'the most powerful man in the world' and the prestige also comes something else: The buck stops here.

This whole thread is utterly ridiculous.



The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
User currently offlineSpeedbird747BA From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (7 years 9 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1606 times:

Quoting JpetekYXMD80 (Reply 12):
Whatever happened to the concept of Presidential accountability in this country? Stop trying to paint Bush like Congress

Excuse me, but Bush CUT taxes. He didnt raise them, even though we were fighting a war.

Cheers,
Kyle


User currently offlineJpetekYXMD80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 4382 posts, RR: 27
Reply 14, posted (7 years 9 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1606 times:

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Reply 13):

Excuse me, but Bush CUT taxes. He didnt raise them, even though we were fighting a war.

What the hell are you talking about?

Obviously my point flew right over your head.



The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
User currently offlineBushpilot From South Africa, joined Jul 2007, 0 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (7 years 9 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1606 times:

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Reply 9):
Exaclty. Not Bush's fault. The reason it was cheap is because of lack of funds.

No this is his fault utterly, completely and his fault alone. He is the CIC, he made the decision to go, he has made the decision to stay, he is the final say on policy in Iraq. He nor anyone has anyone to blame for this mess but the dipshit living at 1600 Penn. Ave.

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Reply 9):
Sounds a bit like Saddam, eh?

Yeah, except the Iraqi people were better off under him. Saddam is an asshole, but he wasnt killing 100 people a day.


User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (7 years 9 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1593 times:

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 15):
Saddam is an asshole, but he wasnt killing 100 people a day.

Don't bet the farm on that . . . .

I'd say he did his fair share . . . and so did his family . . . you know, those two find upstanding Iraqi son's of his.

Don't be too quick to dismiss Saddam's ability to CONTROL to sectarian violence that has reared it's ugly head through force. He was indeed a killer. And the ONLY reason he 'maintained control' was the fact that those that opposed him disappeared . . . . violently.


User currently offlineJakeOrion From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1253 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (7 years 9 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1586 times:

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 15):
Yeah, except the Iraqi people were better off under him. Saddam is an asshole, but he wasnt killing 100 people a day



Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 16):
Don't be too quick to dismiss Saddam's ability to CONTROL to sectarian violence that has reared it's ugly head through force. He was indeed a killer. And the ONLY reason he 'maintained control' was the fact that those that opposed him disappeared . . . . violently.

Add on to this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Saddam's_Iraq

Yup, Saddam was a real sweet heart of a man, much better than that evil super tyrant of President Bush.  Yeah sure



Every problem has a simple solution; finding the simple solution is the difficult problem.
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (7 years 9 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1568 times:

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Reply 13):
Excuse me, but Bush CUT taxes. He didnt raise them, even though we were fighting a war

Yes, all his rich friends are getting a windfall-WHILE WE'RE FIGHTING A WAR! The only people Bush has asked to sacrifice during a time of national crisis, and flighting wars in two nations, and against terrorism, are the soldiers and their families.

And you want to applaude him for that?

And trying to let Bush off the hook for what's going on just shows how removed from reality you are. If you'll let him get away for this, you'd let him off the hook for anything.


User currently offlineBushpilot From South Africa, joined Jul 2007, 0 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (7 years 9 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1566 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 16):
Don't be too quick to dismiss Saddam's ability to CONTROL to sectarian violence that has reared it's ugly head through force. He was indeed a killer. And the ONLY reason he 'maintained control' was the fact that those that opposed him disappeared . . . . violently.

I certainly see your point old pal, the point I was trying to make is that the average Iraqi has it no better now, than before we showed up, there was a time they did, and there was a time they had hope things would be better soon. But I think we lost that trust from the average Iraqi. Saddam no doubt was/is a bad guy. I hope they chop his head off in public. But the Iraqi security forces and the coalition forces are not in control in many places in Baghdad. The situation is deteriorating rapidly, and unless something dramatic happens we wont be able to tip the scales back in our favor of rebuilding Iraq and leaving it as a bastion of peace, liberty, and democracy in the middle east as an example to the rest of the middle east and the world of how great America is. I wish that were the case, but I have serious doubts if this can realistically be accomplished.


User currently offlineAirTranTUS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (7 years 9 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1566 times:

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 15):
but he wasnt killing 100 people a day.

Neither is Bush, or the US Armed forces. The Iraqi people seem to be killing a lot of each other every day, but it is less usually than 100.


User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (7 years 9 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1556 times:

Iraq isn't the GOP's fault.

Space aliens came down, occupied the heads of the President and all his men (and women), told them to invade Iraq and create total and utter chaos.

Put the blame where it belongs.

On E.T.


User currently offlineBushpilot From South Africa, joined Jul 2007, 0 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (7 years 9 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1556 times:

Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 20):

Your right, I blame Bush for creating this situation, I blame Al-Maliki for condoning it, and I blame Sadr for perpetrating it. But the person on the American side of the equation that the responsibility this falls on his none other than George W. Bush.


User currently offlineTravelin man From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3490 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (7 years 9 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1541 times:

Iraq Isn't Really The GOPs Fault

Ha! That's a good one! You DO realize that a GOP President, supported by a GOP-controlled Congress, authorized military action in a country that had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with 9/11 or any of the other reasons they gave for going in.

This President and Cheney and Rumsfeld CREATED the morrass that is Iraq today.

But yeah, who could have predicted all the sectarian violence that would occur? Oh, wait a minute, MANY MANY MANY people predicted it! They just weren't listened to.

I guess when you have a President that was never in the military, supported by a Vice President that was never in the military, supported by a Defense Secretary that was never in the military, this is the type of military "strategy" that you end up with.

Stay the course!


User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (7 years 9 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1529 times:

Another point in blamng Bush and the GOP.

It should have been painfully obvious to them, before going into Iraq that the potential of what happened in Yugoslavia could happen in Iraq: a nation, with ages-old hatreds that were suppressed only by the rule of a strong-armed dictator. And, as when Tito died in Yugoslavia, it should have been apparent that unless there was enough security in the nation, the same fate could befall Iraq.

So, what do we do? We dismantle the ENTIRE security infrastructure of the nation; we don't send in nearly enough troops for a successful and relatively peaceful occupation/transition, and now, look where we stand-by our own military's estimation, Iraq stands on the edge of chaos.

So, yes, it is Bush's fault-his, and his team's fault.


25 SlamClick : It would be hard to keep a straight face while suggesting that G.W. Bush is not responsible for the US being up to its mustache in Iraq's problems, bu
26 Bushpilot : You mean the Texas Air National Guard doesnt count? The war in Vietnam was raging, they had to protect Corpus Christi from VCs wearing black pajamas
27 11Bravo : Don't fool your self about that one. The US has invested a huge amount of resources training and equiping Iraqi military and security forces. There a
28 Post contains links Schoenorama : And the Iraqi insurgents thank the US military for that! "Thousands of U.S. weapons in Iraq missing http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/i...q/2006-10-
29 DrDeke : In case you haven't noticed, President Bush is hardly in control of affairs in Iraq, is he? (As much as I'm sure he wishes he were.) -DrDeke
30 SlamClick : Is it your statement that the reciprocal hatred of Sunni / Shia is the creation of the Bush administration?
31 Falcon84 : No, but the unleashing of it in the here and now IS the creation of Bush's ill-thought out war.
32 Schoenorama : No, it is my statement that they did not foresee the foreseeable. The whole sectarian violence issue was predicted long before the first US soldier s
33 Post contains images Speedbird747BA : HEHEHEHEHE.....good one! I AM IN A SOLDIERS FAMILY!!!!!!!!!!!! don't lecture me on what I have given up. Wat a minute! is any of this was related to
34 Falcon84 : I wasn't lecturing you, buddy. I was lecturing this president you're so in love with. This guy is only asking families like yours to sacrifice, while
35 Speedbird747BA : Uh-oh......my last post may have opened up some flaming on me...... So, I'll go ahead and give you guys the history lesson. "The story id told that in
36 Speedbird747BA : I guess after seeing all the good that has come from Iraq, I realize what was worth sacrificing. I don't have blind faith in Bush. I think he has eff
37 SlamClick : Ahh, so if it wern't for that nasty old Bush you could ignore the screams rising up from the dungeons of Baghdad, the vultures circling the Kurdish c
38 SlamClick : I believe I already said that. ...here. But ignore that too, by all means.
39 TNNH : iraq is iraq's fault. these damn people dont know to get along with each other. like all social pheonomenons. this will get old. it'll end. it has to.
40 Speedbird747BA : While I agree with you, I am also a bit exasperated with where you are taking this. Please, non-partisan, and dont involve Bush Cheers, Kyle
41 SlamClick : Is that why Europe proposes to do diddly squat about Darfur? Better the tyrants who impose at least one version of order on the region. After all, wh
42 Speedbird747BA : Im sure that Flacon, Schoneorama, and the other extremely political entities do indeed vote. Cheers, Kyle
43 JpetekYXMD80 : In a thread you created about how Iraq is not Bush's fault, you are now asking not to involve Bush. w......t......f?
44 Speedbird747BA : HOW IRAQ IS NOT BUSH"S FAULT!!!!!???????!?!?! youre missing the ENTIRE point!!!! PLEASE REFER - - - - FOLLOWED BY - - - - Please, please, please pay
45 Speedbird747BA : The title, if expanded, would have read - How the sectarian viloence in Iraq isnt really the GOPs fault as so many are so quick to assume. Long title
46 Post contains images DavestanKSAN : Well according to Republican US House of Representatives Leader John Boehner, Donald Rumsfield isn't to blame about Iraq, but its the Generals in Iraq
47 11Bravo : I think your points on the origin of the Shia-Sunni split are largely irrelevant in the present context. While those distinctions are theologically i
48 JpetekYXMD80 : Ha, ok. If i'm missing the entire point, then you're missing the entire thread.. What about your original title then? You can say all you want about
49 Speedbird747BA : In my opinion, they are entirely proximate. If there was only Islam an no division, then there really wouldnt be sectarian violence. Saddam wouldnt h
50 Speedbird747BA : Are you doing this because you are insanely partisan, or because you hate me? Cheers, Kyle
51 Falcon84 : Not true, and, in the context of this thread, irrelevant. If an Iraq dies at the hands of the U.S., because of sectarian warfare, or at the hands of
52 VonRichtofen : If that's the case, then why is the US in there in the first place?
53 Post contains images Charger : Yeah and it's not really my fault that I need to lose 10 pounds. It's McDonald's and Burger King's fault.
54 AerospaceFan : I think that this is absolutely true. Iraq has a representative democracy -- if, as they say, they can keep it. This is it was with America, in the e
55 Post contains images ANCFlyer : Well, I have two thoughts on this. Firstly, that chairwarming Congressman can kiss my ass . . . . if he knew half of what he should about Donald Rums
56 Frequentflyer : Totally agree. I would add that the intent was noble, however the post war plan was... wait.. what plan? This compounded -and still today compounds-
57 Schoenorama : I fail to see what Darfur has to do with this discussion. Europe's stance on Darfur isn't very good but it isn't much better than that of the US. I g
58 Post contains images JakeOrion : Hence, my reply 11. As much as Bush wants to end the violence Iraq, it'll never happen. Like others said, our cause to go in was a noble one, but the
59 SlamClick : You miss my point. Not surprising since I hadn't gotten around to making it yet. Here it comes: Talking about the situation in Iraq in connection wit
60 Falcon84 : No he is not, but it is relavant since his actions in setting all these events in motion ARE the problem. But, Bush is the sitting president, and, un
61 SlamClick : Especially if Europe, Canada, Central and South America, Asia and the whole Muslim world decide they don't care. If any other party in the world actu
62 JakeOrion : I agree, however he is not making (or cannot make) the situation any better over there, therefore, he leaves himself open to criticism. Really, the o
63 SlamClick : I have no quarrel with that. Criticise all you want, they've earned it. Just don't mistake that criticism for corrective action. Don't even mistake i
64 Frequentflyer : Sounds easy but how do governments with public opinions overly against the war go about associating themselves with patching a situation created by t
65 AerospaceFan : The problem is that walking away may be cheaper, but only in the short run. In the long run, if we don't do what we can, we're going to reap the resul
66 JakeOrion : Again, I fully agree. But the fact that he is not taking any corrective action is what is pissing me off about him. However, I am not in a political
67 SlamClick : Don't confuse cause with effect here. The war did not in any sense "create" the situation. My frightened Christ, how much cosmic influence do you thi
68 Falcon84 : Why should they? We went in telling them to stick it where the sun don't shine, and we didn't want their help, so if I were them, why would I lift a
69 Frequentflyer : I see your point Slam however it does not work from a political point of view. That's why the US gets only lip service today to help reconstruct or a
70 SlamClick : Care about Iraq! Iraq, not the USA. Jeez.
71 AerospaceFan : Not so. We've always welcomed help, and particularly in Afghanistan.
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