Korg747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 549 posts, RR: 5 Posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 3380 times:
That question is the most important question in our times of now. The answer to that question is what decides our future really.
Say that all religions were proven to be the biggest lie and that God has never existed. What then?
I can see that at first, we will witness mass suicide events that will happen all over the world. I'm very sure that there is a lot of people who hate their life and never really wanted to take part of it, that's why they refer to religion for happiness and depend on it's promised reward of "heaven" which fills them with hope that they will be happy. I know when I was a kid, I used to get excited and all happy when I was going to go see a movie I've never seen before or a new show or meet someone I want to see or something like that. So it's safe to assume that those kind of people will feel that same excitement when they die because they think they are about to go to a place where they will truly find happiness. But, when all this heaven promise disappears and gets proven to be a lie. What's the point of living anymore? Some of them will appreciate their families. someof them will be selfish and won't care and commit suicide. All of this mass suicide will probably happen at the first portion of time.
My second point is our morals and definition of Good and bad. It doesn't matter if we believe in religion or not but I think we can clearly see that through history, our definition of Good and bad has been defined/influenced greatly by/through religion. Many of country laws are somehow based on a religion moral point of view. So at this point, if religion is proven to be a lie. Other than society, who is going to punish us now? No more angry God that will strike lightning on you and me? So in conclusion, we will probably see more people killing more people. But Society will probably stand up for murder and will not allow it. But what's backing up society now? Is it prison really? Or has it been the unknown God figure who people don't know much about him and as a result, they use there own imagination in which it results in God being the one thing they are afraid of the most? So at this point. The good society will be over thrown just like all other societies that had strict laws through our history.
I would also like to point out that the #s of religion believers versus non believers is 9:1.... 90% of the world do believe in somekind of a religion that has to do with a God. So my point is, all what I predict to happen will happen in mass forms.
I have seen a lot of people who say that people can move on without religion. But really, you take religion away, you are truly free to do anything and I mean anything regardless if it was bad or not. Keep in mind that our current generation may not be as affected as future generations will be because our current generation choices is being influenced by religion teachings every day even if we are no believers and regardless if it's a good thing or a bad thing.
Why am I bringing this up? I'm looking for people's thought on this. this is kind of my current thought but I'm open to other point of view that I have not thought of before.
Society has always been the enforcement, not God. The rules created might have been under the guise of what we think how a God would want us to behave. But it isnt God putting people in prison it is cops.
Maybe, probably a slight rise in individuals killing individuals. But much less genocidal acts.
Quoting Korg747 (Thread starter): Or has it been the unknown God figure who people don't know much about him and as a result, they use there own imagination in which it results in God being the one thing they are afraid of the most?
I am an agnostic, I dont know if God exsists, because well I never met him, nor have I been able to chat with anyone who actually has either. We wont know if God exsists or not until we are dead, once we are dead...a little difficult to pass word back to the living.
Lehpron From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 7028 posts, RR: 20
Reply 7, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 3287 times:
I believe we must realize that as long as we are forced to interpret stuff, we are to blame for the world's ills. Not we as in lumping up the innocent with the guilty, I mean people are responsible for their own actions, not books or scripture not even interpretation.
Knowing humankind, if we never had religion, we will create one to explain why things happen as if blaming ourselves is not an option. In life there are leaders and followers, we create authority.
[Edited 2006-11-03 03:19:00]
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
Vikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 10965 posts, RR: 26
Reply 8, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 3277 times:
Quoting Korg747 (Thread starter): Say that all religions were proven to be the biggest lie and that God has never existed. What then?
Difficult to say. But, chances are, for the majority (I won't say what percentage majority), life will go on.
Quoting Korg747 (Thread starter): I can see that at first, we will witness mass suicide events that will happen all over the world. I'm very sure that there is a lot of people who hate their life and never really wanted to take part of it, that's why they refer to religion for happiness and depend on it's promised reward of "heaven" which fills them with hope that they will be happy.
I have a feeling that the kind of people you're describing are the kind of people who will simply refuse to believe that God does not exist, even if it's been proven. Therefore....no mass suicides.
Ultimately, humans are consequence-driven. You punch someone, you get punched back. You stick your hand in boiling water, you get burned. You rob a bank, you get thrown in jail. You perpetuate a sinful existence, you get sent to hell.
So, why are people afraid of hell? Because it is not a pleasant place. Once again...consequences. So suddenly, there's no hell (or heaven) anymore. So you go kill someone. But wait, you still get thrown in jail. What exactly did you just achieve that you couldn't have achieved before? You'll wind up in the same place for the same length of time.
After all, if criminals can become born-again Christians or whatever while in prison, then realistically, the threat of hell is no deterrent in the first place. So all we really have are the deterrents of our various judicial systems.
Quoting Korg747 (Thread starter): The good society will be over thrown just like all other societies that had strict laws through our history.
I think that is overly dramatic. I fully believe that the world will not be plunged into anarchy.
Quoting Korg747 (Thread starter): But really, you take religion away, you are truly free to do anything and I mean anything regardless if it was bad or not
You are already free to do anything. You just have to deal with the consequences.
I dunno...it is an interesting question.
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
BowflexBrennan From Australia, joined Jul 2006, 124 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 3252 times:
Quoting Korg747 (Thread starter): But really, you take religion away, you are truly free to do anything and I mean anything regardless if it was bad or not.
Don't forget you still have the long arm of the law. Just because you have no religion, doesn't mean you have no morals and beliefs. I for one, am not religious and I don't believe in god or any higher power. I believe that all religious theories and phenomenon can be explained scientifically. This doesn't mean I just run around all day creating havoc and what not. I still have my beliefs in what is right and wrong. Even if there was no law or punishment for crimes, I wouldn't go out and kill someone knowing I wouldn't get punished.
Although I think there would be some significant repercussions, I don't think that by taking religion away you would be ruining the world or anything.
Futurecaptain From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 3228 times:
Quoting Korg747 (Thread starter): 90% of the world do believe in somekind of a religion that has to do with a God
So, doesn't the fact that the other 10% still function in society fight your own argument? The fact that they arn't out killing each other, they do have hope, arnt commiting suicide, ect?
Also, regarding God.
How often can you get 90% of the World to agree about Anything? So, perhaps, God is real just because of the fact that so many people believe he is.
I'd bet you could take a poll and 90% of the world wont know what air is.
One could say that with all the experiments they have done about the Big Bang and Evolution, it is enough evidence to say that a creator doesn't exist yet people who have a religion carry on life as if nothing happened.
Religion has blossomed too far in this world for it all to suddenly come to a grinding halt. Also, think of the economic consequences of this, all you US Christian broadcasters with no job. Pastors, priests, clerics all without jobs, we'll even lose the Vatican, an entire country.
If they find out this is true, one would be smarter to keep it to oneself instead.
QXatFAT From Israel, joined Feb 2006, 2406 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 3179 times:
IFEMaster good points! Thank you.
Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 2): I dont know if God exsists, because well I never met him
Hey Bushpilot, I am sure you have heard this before "I have never seen the wind, but I see the effects of the wind." - Billy Grahm (or however you spell his last name haha). But that shows you, does something have to be seen in order for it to exhist? Do you have to meet something in order for it to be real? Have you seen the equator? Have you seen your great great great great grandfather? You know they exhist though right? Might not be a good example for you but I tried haha.
Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 2): But it isnt God putting people in prison it is cops.
Where do those cops get the ideas for what is right and wrong? I think a lot of our morals and laws have been based off of what God has taught threw the biginning of time. (The Bible with the Law of Moses) I think that God has shown us a standard for what is considerd what is right and wrong. If that had never of happend, then what would be able to differ what is right and wrong? For you (example), you could say that stealing is perfectly fine because it is not wrong to you, but to me it was wrong and not right even if I was not the one effected. Does that still make you right?
In my beliefs, God has changed my life and outlook on life. I am very greatful for what it has done. I dont think I would be where I am today without it. If I didnt have it, I could see myself as a 19 year old father of 3, no job, no way to support all of my kids, maybe in jail for commiting some crimes.
The comment about the other "10%" that dont have religion but saying that they are doing just fine, well I am sure they are doing fine because of what other people are doing. I believe that the way someone acts and their morals directly effect the way someone else might think and act as well.
Just wanted to add, good job guys at not making this a bashing thread. I really apprciate the maturity in this tread. I have not seen this in quite awhile!
"Prof Dawkins (who subscribes to evolution to explain human development) thinks there could be an evolutionary advantage, not to believing in god, but to having a brain with the capacity to believe in god. That such faith exists is a by-product of enhanced intelligence. Prof Ramachandran denies that finding out how the brain reacts to religion negates the value of belief. He feels that brain circuitry like that Persinger and Newberg have identified, could amount to an antenna to make us receptive to god. Bishop Sykes meanwhile, thinks religion has nothing to fear from this neuroscience. Science is about seeking to explain the world around us. For him at least, it can co-exist with faith."
Gravity explains the motions of the planets, but it cannot explain who set the planets in motion.
JGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 3164 times:
Religion as a motive force in society is largely exploded in the West anyway, I'm pretty sure for the vast majority of us, such "news" would come as no surprise, and it wouldn't affect us in any way. You don't need religion to have morals, or decency, or compassion - these are human traits, and were not magically "created" by religion. Humans strive to be better than what they are, and for a better life for their children. Religion was invented as a means of mind-control in less enlightened times, when the world was a scary place and people need myths to explain how the world worked. Other, less scrupulous people, took advantage of this general credulity and directed it to their own ends, resulting in all the fun we had for the last 2000 years. Only recently have people started to see through this.
QXatFAT From Israel, joined Feb 2006, 2406 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 3118 times:
Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 17): You don't need religion to have morals, or decency, or compassion - these are human traits
But where did the compassion and decency or morals come from? There has to be a starting point correct? A mind or suprior being that put it into someones heart or mind. At least thats what I believe. If you look at the Yanomomi people for instance, a jungle group deep in the Amazon jungles, full of killing and everything. They kill for sport and just because that is part of them. Is that good morals? No. Do they have a religeon? No. They are animistic yes, but that is not a religeon, they are actually living in FEAR of the spirits. There is no "God" for their faith. So would you say that they feel it is good morals to kill someone? To you or me it is not. So then human traits constantly change from person to person and there is no real cosistancy. But they way I see it is, they have not been aproached by an outside faith, thus them still living in fear of spirits and killing. I believe that once smaller people groups with little or no contact with the outside world can see true morals based on religeon. Sure religeions are different but still hover around morals.
Vikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 10965 posts, RR: 26
Reply 22, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 3109 times:
Quoting QFA380 (Reply 13): Exactly, society for however it has been around for, has been based upon religion no matter what it may be. Therefore society will come crashing down if it's base is suddenly been removed.
Disagree. I think people will discover that they're quite capable of standing on their own two feet.
(after all, that's what they've been doing anyway, god or no god)
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
JGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 3088 times:
Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 19): But where did the compassion and decency or morals come from?
Morals and compassion come from an organized society that no longer relies on subsistence to survive. As soon as any society develops to the point where it is able to survive beyond the day-to-day, it develops a structure of mores to govern interaction within that society. These mores are more or less spontaneous, simply from the need to organise the society more advantageously, and develop because the society is able to "indulge" in them if you will - unlike more basic societies where every action is geared towards mere survival. Hence in situations where survival is threatened, no matter how "religious" the society may have become, morals etc go out the window.
This is how societies who have never had any kind of organised religion imposed upon them, still manage to have morals and compassion and a tendency towards invention and self-improvement. The tribe you describe in Brazil clearly has not reached that level yet, and are still struggling merely to survive. Their beliefs are nothing to do with it.
AerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 3081 times:
Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 23): Morals and compassion come from an organized society that no longer relies on subsistence to survive. As soon as any society develops to the point where it is able to survive beyond the day-to-day, it develops a structure of mores to govern interaction within that society.
I agree to some extent, but in societies in which morality is expressly the same as what people will agree with, we see innumerable instances of chaos and disorder. The greatest period of decline of the Roman Empire coincided with the loss of faith in its leaders, and since there were competing beliefs that set forth an ultimate leader -- God -- the Empire's fall was facilitated; there was no higher authority to which imperfect leaders could appeal.
No one believed in Zeus anymore.
But there were those who believed in Jesus Christ.
And Christianity took the place of the old religions. Constantinople became Christian, before it was conquered by the Muslims.
No one worships Zeus, because he was discredited. And no one worships Alexander, because he was just a man.
The god cult of the Romans was destroyed, only to be replaced, saith even the secularists, by another one.
Religion? Unnecessary? Then why did Christianity arise?
[Edited 2006-11-03 19:19:35]
: Possibly, but the decline of the Roman empire was precipitated by population migrations from Central Asia applying irresistible pressure to the north
: In response to the initial question "Can people survive without religion?," I think it's fairly apparent that no one survives THIS world, regardless o
: Yeahyeah, so you say. Economics is king, blahblah. But why did Christianity, rather than no religion, prevail? Are you telling me that society would
: The obvious question that I will pose regarding this paragraph is: What about those of us who are currently non-religious, or don't believe in any so
: The success of largely agnostic and secular western societies across the world would indicate that no, religion is not necessary. I would contend tha
: Not sure I would agree with you that any such societies have succeeded by themselves. That rich Western Europe made it through against secular Soviet
: My answer goes back to my belief (supported by the Bible) that the notion of good and bad is already written on your heart. You are simply following
: So God, in the form of nucular weapons, saved Europe ? Jaaaa. OK. Um, I'll...just go now...I think.
: Hey, while you're goin' could you make sure to drop off a quart of milk at the house right next to, you know, that place where France has its force d
: Personally, I survive every day of my life without religion. Reasons are various, from to attend 8 years in a catholic school, praying and holding the
: Can people survive without God? Yes. As a matter of fact they do now. It appears that some people need an authoritarian system in order to make sense
: So what you're trying to say is, the end result after you die is determined by what you believe? You think that just because you don't "believe" ther
: Understood. I don't think one can actually say that religion is necessary. Maybe it's easier for some people, but that is not the same thing. Perhaps
: We can really only go by history, in which religion has always played a great part. I suppose that we could do a thought-experiment that assumes that
: To answer the original question... YES, people can live without religion. I was once a 'born again Christian'... and it made me into a completely stup
: Depends where. I really thought about this when I was working in a Peruvian shantytown over the summer. I saw my clients and their families living in
: We know it's possible for an atheist to have a conscience. And we know that that some believers don't. Belief and conscience are separate. How did th
: In a word: Yes! That is the whole point - acting positively just because one is scared of an imaginary big bully in the sky is a pathetic kind of mora
: Very much so. Good point! This is also why the appeal to poverty as causes of violence is not really very effective. Violence among poor people, anec
: Fear and denial. The two are linked.
: I have no belief and plenty of hope! My god I agree with N1120A 40+ here.
: Religion can also be an expression of wonder and gratitude. I think it adds meaning to one's life and perspectives on one's existence that are not av
: I don't really know how to entertain that question - the simple fact is we all "worship" something, whether that be God or a hero/role-model, etc. Wo
: Thanks. It's fascinating stuff to ponder. Hopefully, I've learned something from all the wrong turns in my past. * * * * Man has been blessed with th
: Whilst I abhor organised religion, the above is just a trite, patronising diatribe that I imagine is pretty insulting to the vast majority on the pla
: I'm sorry to hear you blamed Christianity for turning you into the arrogant person you describe, rather than your own personal actions. And no less,
: No, that is a misunderstanding which has been carefully honed and propagated by religious leaders for millenia, but it is still false. It is based on
: And it generally came from a time where there was relatively little hope in the real world, so most of it was - and basically had to be - basically t
: Perhaps that is why atheists are pretty much forced to stay in the closet. It's hard to say what we think without offending the believers. But the be
: After suffering through religious persecution for millenia, the world will probably survive a little independent thought which forces nobody to agree
: Maybe where you live. Never mind, give it a couple of years, the Republican theocracy can't last forever
: What then? Life will go on! Why wouldn't it? I don't believe in any God and I am doing fine thank you! Only one kind of hope.[Edited 2006-11-04 19:10
: Hehe - been eating our Wheaties, have we ? I think you're ready for Step 2 of the JGPH1A "Modesty is for Losers" seminar.
: Would you care to provide at least ONE example of these "indications" you speak of?
: No, your religious leaders told you that, but it is simply not true. All human aspects and your co-responsibility for the people around you remain ju
: For instance the large number of non-religious individuals who were and are helping others, with no expectation of getting any kind of "payback" on w
: Klaus, I appreciate your taking so much of your time to respond to my many questions. I'm somewhat distracted right now with some other things, so I'l
: I know the feeling. It's tough being the object of blind, uncritical devotion *sigh*.
: Yeah especially since you everything but perfect
: This is a rather complicated question. As an atheist I believe that social mores arose the same way that everything else did, through evolution. It is
: No problem - I know how it is. Is merely trying to conform really the best one could do? I don't think so... (see above) See you later, then! You're
: It's all right Klaus, no need to be embarrassed - you can go ahead and worship me, I would hate to deprive you of your pleasures. You're only human,
: Consider yourself worshipped. I might give you a pat on the back, but I wouldn't want to upset the delicate balance of your hat ornaments...! Or so y
: Duly noted. Your karmic wellness coefficient has been adjusted accordingly. Thank you for your consideration. Another 4 such selfless gestures will e
: My pleasure doing business with you! Once I see the need for such a purchase arising I'll contact you again. But we'll have to haggle about the final
: Oh yes there's a need - don't be questionin' the Divini-tie ! That be invitin' for a smitin', chil' ! Don't worry, your face takes care of that !
: Bah, I know your kind - all talk, no smiting!
: Just you wait till I get the thunderbolts back from the dry-cleaners ! You'll be sorry...
: You can't even afford new ones? I don't know... maybe I should convert to a first rate deity one of these days...!
: I am an environmentally friendly vengeful god ! Low-emissions burning-at-the-stake, lead-free icons, only accept free-range animals for sacrifice. An
: I'll take another look into the pamphlet... maybe I'll still reconsider. But you'll have to further improve on your offer, I'm afraid. Is that a way
: This coming from a deity that would accept anyone as long as they offer him a certain little "sacrifice"...
: What more could you want ? Blimey ! Only 10 commandments, none of them particularly demanding (OK, maybe I could reword the "coveting your neighbour'
: I definitely draw the line at junk food sacrifices - no self-respecting deity should ever stoop that low! But wait - I think I know who he actually i
: Neither is a manga-reading freakasaurus ! For this grave blasphemy I am afraid I am going to have to strip you of your Preferred Worshipper status -
: RELIGION IS JUST AN ILLUSION If you are strong enough,you can live without it ! if not,you will need a daily dose ,just like a tranquiliser ! Alex!!!
: No, thank you. I leave that to certain others who are more masochistically inclined. You should check your files again. Especially regarding which on
: Tsk tsk - how quickly they forget. A quick adjustment of space time, and oh look - it's signed, isn't that funny. Now about that burning sulphur... D
: Unfortunately delusion is only poor man's ersatz for it...!
: You go with whatever works for you. I, on the other hand, am not poor
: I see you've exhausted your daily ration of wit. So in the continued absence of sulfur in particular or divine punishment in general I'll retain my p
: Is that likely ? Really ? You know better than that. Just you wait...
: Maybe they're using the restraints this time. That might help. I'm patient. And quite comfortable.
88 EA CO AS
: A better question would be, "Can religion survive without people?"
: Doesn't matter. There is no way to 'prove' it's and even if space Aliens came down and said there is no god, all religions would still have some to s
: Hooboy, Klaus is fired up again. Well, that's a start for you, at least. You seem at least a little open here to the concept of spiritual things, or,
: Well, I finally have a few moments. WeÕve been celebrating my daughterÕs 18th birthday today. One can do no better than conform to perfection! Howev
: I'm an atheist and I'm not at all in the closet about it. I firmly believe there isn't a god. I also believe organised religion is abhorant. However
: No. But if it amuses you, you're free to believe that. Better yet, participate with actual arguments to the point.
: While I am a Christian, I do believe people can survive without religion, they have survived so far. Not everybody believes in God or a god. However,
: I'm counting on it. Get worshipping, puny mortals !
: I'm sorry, when your arguments are simply "My personal beliefs are right, yours are wrong" then it's pretty hard to have a come back. Why do you feel
: I've been reading all the arguments from Klaus about how people are able to "do good" WITHOUT the "motivation" of God, and you pretty much put into w
: Your interpretation is incorrect. And I think you can leave the complaints to those on whose behalf you claim to speak. Have a nice day!
: More patronising arrogance. Being atheist is one thing, but why the need to be so doggish?
: Why not stick to the discussion and present a reasoned argument? This has gone a couple of rounds now and it looks like you're gaming for a fight. If
: I'm not sure what this one example is supposed to prove or convey. The 9/11 terrorists were deeply religious. Bush is also supposed to be very religi
: I PERSONALLY believe, that yes, you can survive without religion and I am an atheist. It's a complicated subject with too many questions to answer, bu