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Liberalism: A Love-hate Relationship With The U.S.  
User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (8 years 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 2657 times:

Why are conservatives able to make liberals look like goony America-haters?

I'll cite one example of fodder for their thoughts:

(Excerpt)

Quote:
That Borat finds the streak of poison in American life mitigates the potential perception of "Borat" as some Muslim-bashing movie for a self-satisfied Western audience. However anti-Semitic, misogynistic or homophobic Borat might be, he is usually able to find some American to agree with him. In fact, Borat's bigotry allows the people around him to let their hair down and chime in. Then the trap snaps shut and they're on 3,000 screens talking, for example, about how in America the minorities have all the advantages.

This, from a review published today in -- where else? San Francisco.

I could find other examples, but I've got better things to do, and I'll just say it seems to me that the left, and liberals, are willing to go to various places in their criticism of Americans that the right simply doesn't.

But wait! There's more! Don't take this as a classic liberal bash-fest. It's not.

Here's what I think about liberalism: Without liberalism, America itself wouldn't be possible.

There. I said it. Satisfied?

In a sense, I'm clearly a liberal, because I'm a beneficiary of the liberal American way of thinking that allowed our Founding Fathers to trash the hoary old conservatives way back in the late 1700's.

So, the sense of liberalism in which you're looking for things that are wrong, and you hope to solve them... well, that has its own dynamic. And, just the way that Jefferson and Co. bashed a few heads together, figuratively speaking, to form our Republic, I believe you could argue that liberals of today are simply trying to accomplish the same thing -- to build our country toward something greater.

If the above is true, I have only one question:

For the love of Mike, why the heck can't liberals make their way of thinking work?

There's no sense in which one should "love" racism, or prejudice, or any manner of negative things that most Americans -- liberals or conservatives -- would despise. Most Americans would find hatred of Barak Obama or Harold Ford, Jr., merely because they're black, absolutely disgusting and unacceptable. That's just one example.

But liberals of today don't seem to know how to harness the common ground that the great Ronald Reagan was able to do so well. Instead, they make snide remarks about "flyover country" and horrible "streaks" in American life, and I think that reading stuff like the article I cited above is what makes a lot of ordinary people -- like me -- think: What the fudge? Ain't that condescending?

And it's unfortunate that it does appear that way.

I think that conservatism has gone a bit stale, frankly speaking. I've been let down in the last few years by Mr. Bush in some ways, mainly domestic. That's one reason I haven't been sending in donations the way I used to.

But I look at the relationship that liberals seem to have with much of America and I think to myself, "This is what liberals think? This is what they are concerned about?"

Liberals simply haven't been able to get their message across, and what messages they have, have looked bad, and they make America look bad, besides.

What America needs, perhaps, is another Ronald Reagan, but this time of the left.

Are you shocked to read my words saying that this is so?

If so, doesn't this something that the left, and liberals, should really think about?

________________________

Source of quote: http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cg...?f=/c/a/2006/11/03/DDGRCM45V31.DTL

[Edited 2006-11-03 18:28:43]

57 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (8 years 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 2633 times:

Snore.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


User currently offlineJetsGo From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 3086 posts, RR: 5
Reply 2, posted (8 years 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 2630 times:

I read and re-read, and still don't understand the purpose of your thread.


Chris



Marine Corps Aviation, The Last To Let You Down!
User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (8 years 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 2626 times:

The question is what liberals can do to make their message more palatable to the half of the country, or more, who aren't liberals.

What is the answer?


User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (8 years 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 2625 times:

Eat more chocolate.

Drink more red wine.

Have more sweaty sex.

Tell conservatives obsessed with God, gays and guns to sod off.


User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (8 years 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 2633 times:

Quoting JetsGo (Reply 2):
I read and re-read, and still don't understand the purpose of your thread.

I wouldn't worry about it. It happens to the best of us.

To summarise, AeroSpocrates is upset because a review in a liberal publication, of a movie about an English actor pretending to be a bigotted, anti-semitic Kazakh, has revealed that this actor has managed to persuade some slack-jawed Red-state Americans on camera to reveal how bigotted and anti-semitic THEY are, by means of the cunning strategy of appearing to sympathise with them in their beliefs. This, AeroSpocrates concludes, reveals how liberals hate true, red-blooded Americans, because by bringing to light these un-p.c. beliefs and exposing them to just ridicule, they reveal a flaw in the otherwise unblemished and roseate magnificence that is Amuurricuh the BeeeYOOteefool.

Have I got that right ? Its a bit like translating Klingon, even if you understand the individual words, the meaning can escape you completely.


User currently offlineB777-700 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (8 years 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 2622 times:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 3):
The question is what liberals can do to make their message more palatable to the half of the country, or more, who aren't liberals.

What is a liberal, AF?


User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (8 years 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 2623 times:

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 5):
This, AeroSpocrates concludes, reveals how liberals hate true, red-blooded Americans, because by bringing to light these un-p.c. beliefs and exposing them to just ridicule, they reveal a flaw in the otherwise unblemished and roseate magnificence that is Amuurricuh the BeeeYOOteefool.

Actually, the question should be how the liberals' message can be reformed so that it stands a good chance of being heard again.

Believe it or not, I'm trying to get you guys to think outside the box -- how to reform liberalism so that half of America, or more, doesn't dismiss it out of hand. Aren't you interested in at least trying to do just that?

Is John Kerry the soul of liberalism, or isn't liberalism far more than Kerry, or Pelosi?


User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (8 years 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 2609 times:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 7):
Believe it or not, I'm trying to get you guys to think outside the box

Why thank you!

But we need no help. You see, we've been thinking outside the box for at least about 2,000 years now.

If the world had been left to the auspices of the flat earth society, we'd still be the equivalent of cave men in a Gary Larson cartoon.

Incidentally, most liberals the world over haven't even heard of John Kerry or Nancy Pelosi. If there's anyone who needs to crawl out of a box, it's you.


User currently offlineHalls120 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (8 years 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 2606 times:

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 6):
Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 3):
The question is what liberals can do to make their message more palatable to the half of the country, or more, who aren't liberals.

What is a liberal, AF?

I can't wait to hear the answer to this one.

I'd ask a follow on question. AF, why do you think it necessary to try to pigeonhole people into nice, neat categories?

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 7):
Believe it or not, I'm trying to get you guys to think outside the box -- how to reform liberalism so that half of America, or more, doesn't dismiss it out of hand.

I don't believe you are trying to do that at all. Seems to me you are just trying to stir more angry debate and at the same time, up your post count.


User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (8 years 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 2601 times:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 7):
Believe it or not, I'm trying to get you guys to think outside the box -- how to reform liberalism so that half of America, or more, doesn't dismiss it out of hand. Aren't you interested in at least trying to do just that?

But what is "liberalism" ? It's not like "communism" with a written manifesto. Liberalism, if it is anything, is the antithesis of reactionary, unyielding resistance to change, it permits rather than prevents the adaptation of society to new mores that will always being changing (despite what conservatives want) as people work to improve the society in which they live.

Liberalism has no fixed agenda, nor any fixed set of beliefs - instead it is the acceptance and accomodation of all beliefs, based on the notion that the more inclusive and accomodating a society is, the greater the ability of that society to absorb and adapt what is good from the various beliefs of its citizens, rather than imposing a narrow and exclusive set of values in the belief that ONLY these values have any validity, and that any others only weaken and divide society - this narrow and exclusive set of values is what defines conservatism.

Liberalism has no "message" except to accept and value all messages, and to try and extract the best from each. If that isn't acceptible to 50% of Americans, then 50% of Americans are going to get marginalised and passed over. A free society will always change and adapt, this is an unstoppable process - the best hope is that this change and adaptation can be directed towards improving society as a whole.


User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (8 years 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 2601 times:

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 9):
I'd ask a follow on question. AF, why do you think it necessary to try to pigeonhole people into nice, neat categories?

I don't. I wish we could all have our own political parties.

But the sad fact of reality is there are two parties, because people tend to rally toward one or the other pole of extremes -- there's that whole "dichotomy" thing that some seemed not to understand.

In a universe of two political parties, each party has elements that should do their best to effect reform within the party itself. That's the hand that's been played.

You want to try to elect an H. Ross Perot, hey, be my guest. Just remember what happened last time.


User currently offlineHALFA From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 1365 posts, RR: 15
Reply 12, posted (8 years 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 2603 times:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 3):
The question is what liberals can do to make their message more palatable to the half of the country, or more, who aren't liberals.

What is the answer?

Perhaps liberal leaders can snort meth and have sex with gay prostitutes, that will get their message out. Our maybe they can become hopelessly addicted to prescription drugs, get caught, say they're sorry, and then continue on with their radio show as if nothing ever happened.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 7):
Believe it or not, I'm trying to get you guys to think outside the box -- how to reform liberalism so that half of America, or more, doesn't dismiss it out of hand.

That's very big of you, so nice to know you care about liberals. Come next Tuesday, we'll see if half of America or more dismisses it out of hand.

Me thinks someone's been watching too much O'Reilly Factor.

Aloha,
HALFA



Don't mess with Texas....We just may do that!
User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (8 years 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 2597 times:

Quoting HALFA (Reply 12):
That's very big of you, so nice to know you care about liberals. Come next Tuesday, we'll see if half of America or more dismisses it out of hand.

Should one always have this "f*ck you" attitude toward people who try to extend a hand across the political aisle?

No wonder politics is as it is now. What a pity.


User currently offlineTexan From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 4283 posts, RR: 52
Reply 14, posted (8 years 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 2596 times:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 7):
Believe it or not, I'm trying to get you guys to think outside the box

In other words, you want more people to think like you. But the problem is that some people, believe it or not, think that you frequently do not have the answer. Sorry.

Texan



"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
User currently offlineB777-700 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (8 years 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 2591 times:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 11):

I ask again: What is a liberal, AF?


User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (8 years 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 2575 times:

Quoting Texan (Reply 14):
In other words, you want more people to think like you.

Nope. If I did, I wouldn't ask for people's considered opinions. I post here because I'm interested in why politics is such a f*ckfest where everyone is out to get one another, number one, and, number two, how the f*ck we can get out of this mess we're in, where left hates right and Joe hates Mary.

All I'm getting from the left is, "You Bush lover. You bad. I hate you."

Come on, guys! You don't even KNOW who I am.

I want to see some thinking that demonstrates that the left and liberalism are capable of doing something other than:

1. Bashing the President;

2. Promoting gay rights;

3. Being angry;

4. Loving animals;

5. Loving the environment; and/or,

6. Shutting people up who disagree with them 'cause they're morons and/or pulled the wings off flies as a kid.

For God's sake, I love animals and the environment too. Don't mean I should vote for liberals. Ain't enough, yo.

If you guys really want to get power -- and I'm not talking about a bare majority here, but real power to do stuff -- rather than feel good about bashing ordinary folks like me, well, then I suggest you think about whether your thinking might need a bit of intelligence.

To tell you the truth, I went to Berkeley. I know how liberals think. But in the corporate world, I know how conservatives think, too. And, guess what? Neither way of thinking is necessarily the right kind for the problems we face.

And so I ask a simple question: What do you have to make the rest of America love you?

If conservatives were out of power, I'd be interested in the answer to the same question, except at conservatives.

Stop being so damn suspicious. From what you all are writing, you'd think I was some kind of White House operative or something. Far be that from the case.

[Edited 2006-11-03 20:01:34]

User currently offlineB777-700 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (8 years 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 2565 times:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 16):

I ask again: What is a liberal, AF?


User currently offlineTexan From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 4283 posts, RR: 52
Reply 18, posted (8 years 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 2555 times:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 16):
Nope. If I did, I wouldn't ask for people's considered opinions.

If you respected other people's opinions a little more, maybe people wouldn't be so hostile toward you.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 16):
And so I ask a simple question: What do you have to make the rest of America love you?

I'll repeat B777-700's question here and ask you what your definition of a liberal is. Do you consider liberals to be encompassed mostly by the Democratic Party? Do you consider anybody to the left of John McCain a liberal? Or do you think that Bill Clinton was a moderate and not truly liberal?

Your original question cannot be answered fully by any person in the world. Know why? Because not all people think alike. Not all conservatives think alike, not all liberals think alike, not all Republicans, Democrats, or independents. In fact, very few people think alike. So what you are getting with any group of people is a collection of good and bad traits. You are getting compassion and you are getting anger. You'll see jokers and you'll see people who are completely serious all the time. You'll see people who like to do the work and people who just take the credit.

People do not fall nice and neatly into categories, AF. Some social liberal are economic conservatives. Some social conservatives are economic liberals. Most people take their views on specific subjects from life experiences and don't really care where or if they fit into a political party. They know what works for them, what seems to work for others, and what doesn't work for them, what doesn't seem to work for others.

If you give me a precise definition of what you consider a liberal, and if I fall precisely into that category, I can tell you what I and others who may think similarly to me have to offer. If you want to know what I specifically think regardless of where I fit, ask. If you want to know where I think the Democrats fit in, ask. Same with the Republicans. As parties, not as individuals.

The questions you ask cannot be truthfully answered by anybody. Because nobody can answer then truthfully and completely, that gives you the ability to say that liberals have no ideas. But if one doesn't ask the right question, the people being questioned can never respond with anything close to what the questioner is looking for.

Texan



"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (8 years 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 2548 times:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
Why are conservatives able to make liberals look like goony America-haters?

Because conservatives think that they're God's chosen ones, and that no one in the U.S. can be more God-fearing or patriotic than they are. They have such a superiority complex about themselves that they can't help castigating anyone who doesn't agree with them.

Quoting JetsGo (Reply 2):
I read and re-read, and still don't understand the purpose of your thread.

Like I've said with AF, you have to read between the lines. In this one he's saying this: "Liberals, you know you're not as good of Americans as conservatives, so accept it, and come up with a gimmick that makes you more accepted in the American/conservative world."

He'll deny it, but that's what he's saying.

And what's ironic is that, with a seemngly large liberal victory at hand in the election, he's still trying to deny reality that not everyone thinks as far to the right as he does.


User currently offlineHalls120 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (8 years 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 2542 times:

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 17):
Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 16):


I ask again: What is a liberal, AF?

He's going to keep ignoring you for awhile, and then start accusing you of twisting his posts out of context, if his past practice with me is any indication.


User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (8 years 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2525 times:

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 20):
Quoting B777-700 (Reply 17):
Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 16):


I ask again: What is a liberal, AF?

He's going to keep ignoring you for awhile, and then start accusing you of twisting his posts out of context, if his past practice with me is any indication.

'

I think here's what he thinks a liberal is:

-Someone who questions the government too much, even though it's our Constitutional right.

-We are against God because we don't think gays should be made 2nd class citizens.

-We're against the soldiers, because we don't support the political decision to send them in to an ill-thought out war.

-We must have been for Saddam because we're against the invasion of Iraq.

-We're socialist because we're disgusted when the richest get huge windfall tax cuts, while those who can barely get by every day are crapped on by the government.

I'm sure I can think of more later.


User currently offlineAirCop From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (8 years 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2519 times:

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 9):
I'd ask a follow on question. AF, why do you think it necessary to try to pigeonhole people into nice, neat categories?

 checkmark  And he is always right..

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 16):
But in the corporate world, I know how conservatives think, too.

Really, you work in the corporate world yet you seem to spend most of your time posting lack of a better word werid threads 24/7.

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 17):
I ask again: What is a liberal, AF?

Answer the question AF!


User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (8 years 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2505 times:

I already answered the "what is a liberal" question.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
So, the sense of liberalism in which you're looking for things that are wrong, and you hope to solve them... well, that has its own dynamic. And, just the way that Jefferson and Co. bashed a few heads together, figuratively speaking, to form our Republic, I believe you could argue that liberals of today are simply trying to accomplish the same thing -- to build our country toward something greater.


User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (8 years 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2484 times:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 23):

As usual with you, that answers absolutely nothng. Answer the dag gone question, man.


25 AerospaceFan : Asked and answered. What don't you understand about it?
26 Post contains images Boeing744 : May I add that we are also unpatriotic and anti-american in general to not support the political decision of the Iraq war. (Obviously I am not patrio
27 Halls120 : No, you didn't. You told us what liberals want to do. Not what a liberal "is."
28 AerospaceFan : Unlike some, I don't necessarily dwell on personalities. I look at people for what they want to do. It's not important to me "what a liberal is" for
29 Post contains images Texan : It seems like you are indeed arguing about how "soft and cuddly or hard and prickly liberals may or may not be." And you also seem to be saying you k
30 Halls120 : In other words, you can't - or won't - answer the question.
31 AerospaceFan : I don't need to. Here's the deal: If I think a question is leading and it basically has no original relevance to what I've said, I'm not going to fee
32 Post contains images Halls120 : Spin, Spin, Spin.
33 Texan : Well, I don't see it that way, but I partially took your bait and attempted to answer your question in the latter part of reply 29. Texan
34 Fumanchewd : ....blah, blah, blah. I am not a conservative, but you are clearly full of it. No society has this and none ever will. Do you believe that France acc
35 B777-700 : Perfect example. May I add the 'Clear Skies Initiative', which in effect, gave carte blanche to big businesses to destroy the environment. It's all i
36 Jalto27R : Hahaha. No you don't. Don't lie!
37 Baroque : Can we vote on that -please! Was that a serious question? Interesting that it was proposed that it was suggested what Liberalism needed was a Ronnie
38 Jaysit : JGPH1A - your reply in post # 5 is absolutely bloody brilliant. Touche. And Higha Five, as Borat would say. Incidentally, I saw the movie last night.
39 Post contains images Clipperhawaii : Easy, because they respond like the following! Show me a liberal and I will show you that deep down they are THE most intolerant persons to ideas the
40 767Lover : This is an example of the kind of hyperbole that makes Liberals ridiculed and despised. I'm speaking objectively, not from the perspective of any pol
41 Post contains images B777-700 : Ok, I'll step up to the plate. I'll play the part of a 'liberal', (whatever that means) show me how intolerant I am. I'm painting w/ a broad brush he
42 Post contains links Texan : First off, it would be wonderful if all politicians did this. None of them do. The "Clear Skies Act of 2003" ended up weakening federal legislation a
43 AerospaceFan : I wouldn't mind your reading beyond the title, but I'd like to have your opinion on the actual topic indicated in the title first. One should do what
44 Post contains images B777-700 : One should go back and read reply 35.
45 767Lover : I didn't see that statement. Thanks for making my point. There is a big difference between reducing minimum requirements and "giving carte blanche to
46 Post contains images B777-700 : Really? It was right below what you did see... So you're one of those people that doesn't read past what you want to see. You are the type of person
47 767Lover : Okay. Sorry. I was glancing. However, it doesn't change my point about hyperbole. Good try, though.
48 Post contains images B777-700 : Exactly.
49 Texan : Welcome. Here's the point, though. Many people would not understand this. The Act does, in effect, give power plants carte blanche to destroy the env
50 AerospaceFan : B777-700, thank you for directly my attention to your Reply 35, as to which I think the following is of interest: I agree to some extent. Overthinking
51 Post contains images B777-700 : One should apologize when one chastises another member for not answering the original question before one moves onto another subject, when one clearl
52 Post contains images AerospaceFan : Let's not get carried away. Your one-sentence response was okay, but hardly encyclopedic. And, I thanked you for your answer, and for my trouble I ge
53 767Lover : On the contrary. First, I think the name of Clear Skies is misleading. That said, instead of painting a broad stroke and saying the Administration ju
54 AerospaceFan : I think you have a point that the "Clear Skies Initiative" appellation might have been erroneously chosen. Sadly, this isn't always seen as the case b
55 B777-700 : There's a difference between what you WANT to happen, and what really is happening. You WANT to say that 'the left' (as if it's a bad thing) is takin
56 AerospaceFan : Oh, it's pretty clear that the national Democrats are extremist, if you look at Rep. Pelosi and her San Francisco-area base. San Francisco is one of
57 Halls120 : I sure hope you are right. I left the democratic party and became an independent years ago because of the extreme leftist tilt the party had adopted.
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