AerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 2326 times:
Why are conservatives able to make liberals look like goony America-haters?
I'll cite one example of fodder for their thoughts:
Quote: That Borat finds the streak of poison in American life mitigates the potential perception of "Borat" as some Muslim-bashing movie for a self-satisfied Western audience. However anti-Semitic, misogynistic or homophobic Borat might be, he is usually able to find some American to agree with him. In fact, Borat's bigotry allows the people around him to let their hair down and chime in. Then the trap snaps shut and they're on 3,000 screens talking, for example, about how in America the minorities have all the advantages.
This, from a review published today in -- where else? San Francisco.
I could find other examples, but I've got better things to do, and I'll just say it seems to me that the left, and liberals, are willing to go to various places in their criticism of Americans that the right simply doesn't.
But wait! There's more! Don't take this as a classic liberal bash-fest. It's not.
Here's what I think about liberalism: Without liberalism, America itself wouldn't be possible.
There. I said it. Satisfied?
In a sense, I'm clearly a liberal, because I'm a beneficiary of the liberal American way of thinking that allowed our Founding Fathers to trash the hoary old conservatives way back in the late 1700's.
So, the sense of liberalism in which you're looking for things that are wrong, and you hope to solve them... well, that has its own dynamic. And, just the way that Jefferson and Co. bashed a few heads together, figuratively speaking, to form our Republic, I believe you could argue that liberals of today are simply trying to accomplish the same thing -- to build our country toward something greater.
If the above is true, I have only one question:
For the love of Mike, why the heck can't liberals make their way of thinking work?
There's no sense in which one should "love" racism, or prejudice, or any manner of negative things that most Americans -- liberals or conservatives -- would despise. Most Americans would find hatred of Barak Obama or Harold Ford, Jr., merely because they're black, absolutely disgusting and unacceptable. That's just one example.
But liberals of today don't seem to know how to harness the common ground that the great Ronald Reagan was able to do so well. Instead, they make snide remarks about "flyover country" and horrible "streaks" in American life, and I think that reading stuff like the article I cited above is what makes a lot of ordinary people -- like me -- think: What the fudge? Ain't that condescending?
And it's unfortunate that it does appear that way.
I think that conservatism has gone a bit stale, frankly speaking. I've been let down in the last few years by Mr. Bush in some ways, mainly domestic. That's one reason I haven't been sending in donations the way I used to.
But I look at the relationship that liberals seem to have with much of America and I think to myself, "This is what liberals think? This is what they are concerned about?"
Liberals simply haven't been able to get their message across, and what messages they have, have looked bad, and they make America look bad, besides.
What America needs, perhaps, is another Ronald Reagan, but this time of the left.
Are you shocked to read my words saying that this is so?
If so, doesn't this something that the left, and liberals, should really think about?
JGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 5, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2302 times:
Quoting JetsGo (Reply 2): I read and re-read, and still don't understand the purpose of your thread.
I wouldn't worry about it. It happens to the best of us.
To summarise, AeroSpocrates is upset because a review in a liberal publication, of a movie about an English actor pretending to be a bigotted, anti-semitic Kazakh, has revealed that this actor has managed to persuade some slack-jawed Red-state Americans on camera to reveal how bigotted and anti-semitic THEY are, by means of the cunning strategy of appearing to sympathise with them in their beliefs. This, AeroSpocrates concludes, reveals how liberals hate true, red-blooded Americans, because by bringing to light these un-p.c. beliefs and exposing them to just ridicule, they reveal a flaw in the otherwise unblemished and roseate magnificence that is Amuurricuh the BeeeYOOteefool.
Have I got that right ? Its a bit like translating Klingon, even if you understand the individual words, the meaning can escape you completely.
AerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 7, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2292 times:
Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 5): This, AeroSpocrates concludes, reveals how liberals hate true, red-blooded Americans, because by bringing to light these un-p.c. beliefs and exposing them to just ridicule, they reveal a flaw in the otherwise unblemished and roseate magnificence that is Amuurricuh the BeeeYOOteefool.
Actually, the question should be how the liberals' message can be reformed so that it stands a good chance of being heard again.
Believe it or not, I'm trying to get you guys to think outside the box -- how to reform liberalism so that half of America, or more, doesn't dismiss it out of hand. Aren't you interested in at least trying to do just that?
Is John Kerry the soul of liberalism, or isn't liberalism far more than Kerry, or Pelosi?
JGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 10, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2270 times:
Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 7): Believe it or not, I'm trying to get you guys to think outside the box -- how to reform liberalism so that half of America, or more, doesn't dismiss it out of hand. Aren't you interested in at least trying to do just that?
But what is "liberalism" ? It's not like "communism" with a written manifesto. Liberalism, if it is anything, is the antithesis of reactionary, unyielding resistance to change, it permits rather than prevents the adaptation of society to new mores that will always being changing (despite what conservatives want) as people work to improve the society in which they live.
Liberalism has no fixed agenda, nor any fixed set of beliefs - instead it is the acceptance and accomodation of all beliefs, based on the notion that the more inclusive and accomodating a society is, the greater the ability of that society to absorb and adapt what is good from the various beliefs of its citizens, rather than imposing a narrow and exclusive set of values in the belief that ONLY these values have any validity, and that any others only weaken and divide society - this narrow and exclusive set of values is what defines conservatism.
Liberalism has no "message" except to accept and value all messages, and to try and extract the best from each. If that isn't acceptible to 50% of Americans, then 50% of Americans are going to get marginalised and passed over. A free society will always change and adapt, this is an unstoppable process - the best hope is that this change and adaptation can be directed towards improving society as a whole.
HALFA From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 1337 posts, RR: 16 Reply 12, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2272 times:
Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 3): The question is what liberals can do to make their message more palatable to the half of the country, or more, who aren't liberals.
What is the answer?
Perhaps liberal leaders can snort meth and have sex with gay prostitutes, that will get their message out. Our maybe they can become hopelessly addicted to prescription drugs, get caught, say they're sorry, and then continue on with their radio show as if nothing ever happened.
Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 7): Believe it or not, I'm trying to get you guys to think outside the box -- how to reform liberalism so that half of America, or more, doesn't dismiss it out of hand.
That's very big of you, so nice to know you care about liberals. Come next Tuesday, we'll see if half of America or more dismisses it out of hand.
Me thinks someone's been watching too much O'Reilly Factor.
AerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 16, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2244 times:
Quoting Texan (Reply 14): In other words, you want more people to think like you.
Nope. If I did, I wouldn't ask for people's considered opinions. I post here because I'm interested in why politics is such a f*ckfest where everyone is out to get one another, number one, and, number two, how the f*ck we can get out of this mess we're in, where left hates right and Joe hates Mary.
All I'm getting from the left is, "You Bush lover. You bad. I hate you."
Come on, guys! You don't even KNOW who I am.
I want to see some thinking that demonstrates that the left and liberalism are capable of doing something other than:
1. Bashing the President;
2. Promoting gay rights;
3. Being angry;
4. Loving animals;
5. Loving the environment; and/or,
6. Shutting people up who disagree with them 'cause they're morons and/or pulled the wings off flies as a kid.
For God's sake, I love animals and the environment too. Don't mean I should vote for liberals. Ain't enough, yo.
If you guys really want to get power -- and I'm not talking about a bare majority here, but real power to do stuff -- rather than feel good about bashing ordinary folks like me, well, then I suggest you think about whether your thinking might need a bit of intelligence.
To tell you the truth, I went to Berkeley. I know how liberals think. But in the corporate world, I know how conservatives think, too. And, guess what? Neither way of thinking is necessarily the right kind for the problems we face.
And so I ask a simple question: What do you have to make the rest of America love you?
If conservatives were out of power, I'd be interested in the answer to the same question, except at conservatives.
Stop being so damn suspicious. From what you all are writing, you'd think I was some kind of White House operative or something. Far be that from the case.
If you respected other people's opinions a little more, maybe people wouldn't be so hostile toward you.
Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 16): And so I ask a simple question: What do you have to make the rest of America love you?
I'll repeat B777-700's question here and ask you what your definition of a liberal is. Do you consider liberals to be encompassed mostly by the Democratic Party? Do you consider anybody to the left of John McCain a liberal? Or do you think that Bill Clinton was a moderate and not truly liberal?
Your original question cannot be answered fully by any person in the world. Know why? Because not all people think alike. Not all conservatives think alike, not all liberals think alike, not all Republicans, Democrats, or independents. In fact, very few people think alike. So what you are getting with any group of people is a collection of good and bad traits. You are getting compassion and you are getting anger. You'll see jokers and you'll see people who are completely serious all the time. You'll see people who like to do the work and people who just take the credit.
People do not fall nice and neatly into categories, AF. Some social liberal are economic conservatives. Some social conservatives are economic liberals. Most people take their views on specific subjects from life experiences and don't really care where or if they fit into a political party. They know what works for them, what seems to work for others, and what doesn't work for them, what doesn't seem to work for others.
If you give me a precise definition of what you consider a liberal, and if I fall precisely into that category, I can tell you what I and others who may think similarly to me have to offer. If you want to know what I specifically think regardless of where I fit, ask. If you want to know where I think the Democrats fit in, ask. Same with the Republicans. As parties, not as individuals.
The questions you ask cannot be truthfully answered by anybody. Because nobody can answer then truthfully and completely, that gives you the ability to say that liberals have no ideas. But if one doesn't ask the right question, the people being questioned can never respond with anything close to what the questioner is looking for.
"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
Because conservatives think that they're God's chosen ones, and that no one in the U.S. can be more God-fearing or patriotic than they are. They have such a superiority complex about themselves that they can't help castigating anyone who doesn't agree with them.
Quoting JetsGo (Reply 2): I read and re-read, and still don't understand the purpose of your thread.
Like I've said with AF, you have to read between the lines. In this one he's saying this: "Liberals, you know you're not as good of Americans as conservatives, so accept it, and come up with a gimmick that makes you more accepted in the American/conservative world."
He'll deny it, but that's what he's saying.
And what's ironic is that, with a seemngly large liberal victory at hand in the election, he's still trying to deny reality that not everyone thinks as far to the right as he does.
AerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 23, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2174 times:
I already answered the "what is a liberal" question.
Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter): So, the sense of liberalism in which you're looking for things that are wrong, and you hope to solve them... well, that has its own dynamic. And, just the way that Jefferson and Co. bashed a few heads together, figuratively speaking, to form our Republic, I believe you could argue that liberals of today are simply trying to accomplish the same thing -- to build our country toward something greater.