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Will European Socialism Fail?  
User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3445 times:

I think that those who post here from Europe include some who believe that the United States is remarkably backward in regard to social services, and in part look down their nose at conservatives here who emphasize initiative and self-reliance.

The following is an interesting perspective on European socialism and its possible destiny. It should be a refreshing change from propaganda suggesting that Europe is the wave of the future.

(Excerpt)

Quote:
Europe’s social disaster is unfolding while the rest of the world is booming at its fastest rate in three decades. 2004 and 2005 were record years for China and India, which have double-digit growth rates, and for the USA, which fully enjoys the benefits of globalization. The world’s economy is booming at an average rate of over 4%, but Europe’s growth has stagnated at an inflated 1.5%.

Why is Europe performing so poorly? Europe’s deficient performance is incompatible with its huge potential as the world’s largest single consumer market. Its slow growth contradicts its unequalled industrial productivity and infrastructure, its outstanding education level and labour ethics, its favourable climate, “fair business” morality, and not in the least its tremendous potential provided by the opening of the iron curtain. Obviously Europe’s fairy-tale is not materializing.

Source:

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/933

106 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAirPacific747 From Denmark, joined May 2008, 2373 posts, RR: 21
Reply 1, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3438 times:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):

What does that have to do with socialism and what do you define as Europe?

Denmark is doing better than ever before! Our economy is extremely strong and we have less than 5% of unemployment.

Furthermore Denmark is a socialist country more than most other countries in Europe.


User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3433 times:

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 1):
What does that have to do with socialism and what do you define as Europe?

What do you mean? Failure? The article was about the failure of socialist programs in Europe.

Here in America, large government programs that help the poor are often seen as a form of socialism.


User currently offlineAirPacific747 From Denmark, joined May 2008, 2373 posts, RR: 21
Reply 3, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3413 times:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 2):
What do you mean? Failure? The article was about the failure of socialist programs in Europe.

Here in America, large government programs that help the poor are often seen as a form of socialism.

Okay and why is that a failure? We don't experience any socialist failure here..?


User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3417 times:

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 3):
Okay and why is that a failure? We don't experience any socialist failure here..?

But Denmark is not the whole of Europe. Further, the issues involved may extend toward the future, and not yet be present today.


User currently offlineDLPMMM From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 3589 posts, RR: 10
Reply 5, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3419 times:

I don't think "fail" is the proper word.

Europeans have a totally different outlook on life than people in the USA. Europeans work to live, while Americans live to work.

There is not so much emphasis inEurope in "getting ahead" as there is in having leisure time. This is why there are so many "caravans" (for those in the USA, those cheap camping trailers that you can pull behind your car). The average European gets 4-6 weeks of vacation each year, but does not have enough money to stay in a motel/hotel for anything close to that long of a time (high cost of living, taxes..) many cannot even afford that for a week, so they huge numbers purchase these "caravans" and head south.

Cheers


User currently offlineAirPacific747 From Denmark, joined May 2008, 2373 posts, RR: 21
Reply 6, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3406 times:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 4):
But Denmark is not the whole of Europe.

Exactly so don't make it sound like this goes for all of Europe.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 4):
Further, the issues involved may extend toward the future, and not yet be present today.

Yeah just like any nation has issues. No country is perfect. We're doing just fine thank you.


User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9523 posts, RR: 42
Reply 7, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3406 times:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
It should be a refreshing change from propaganda suggesting that Europe is the wave of the future.

You do it your way, we'll do it our way. Hardly propaganda or a suggestion that our way is the "way of the Future".

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 2):
large government programs that help the poor are often seen as a form of socialism.

Over here they're seen as just one aspect of socialism. Socialism isn't "a way of dealing with the poor". It's a whole system that's supposed to make it less likely that anyone becomes poor in the first place while looking after those who are already poor. The degree and manner in which it's applied varies hugely between European nations.


User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3399 times:

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 6):
Exactly so don't make it sound like this goes for all of Europe.

What am I supposed to say when the article says otherwise? "Will European (Except Danish) Socialism Fail?"?

The title field isn't long enough, for one thing.

[Edited 2006-11-09 15:46:33]

User currently offlineAirPacific747 From Denmark, joined May 2008, 2373 posts, RR: 21
Reply 9, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3399 times:

Quoting David L (Reply 7):

Over here they're seen as just one aspect of socialism. Socialism isn't "a way of dealing with the poor". It's a whole system that's supposed to make it less likely that anyone becomes poor in the first place while looking after those who are already poor. The degree and manner in which it's applied varies hugely between European nations.

Well said!


User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3399 times:

Quoting David L (Reply 7):
It's a whole system that's supposed to make it less likely that anyone becomes poor in the first place while looking after those who are already poor.

Great. And yet, according to the article I cited, it's failing. Six on one hand, half a dozen on the other.


User currently offlineAirPacific747 From Denmark, joined May 2008, 2373 posts, RR: 21
Reply 11, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3399 times:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 8):
What am I supposed to say when the article says otherwise? "Will European (Except Denmark) Socialism Fail?"?

The title field isn't long enough, for one thing.

lol well "will some European socialist countries fail?" for example.

Europe isn't one nation like the US is.


User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9523 posts, RR: 42
Reply 12, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3399 times:

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 5):
The average European gets 4-6 weeks of vacation each year, but does not have enough money to stay in a motel/hotel for anything close to that long of a time (high cost of living, taxes..) many cannot even afford that for a week, so they huge numbers purchase these "caravans" and head south.

Tongue in cheek, I take it.  Smile

Don't a lot of Americans have trailers and motor homes?


User currently offlineAirPacific747 From Denmark, joined May 2008, 2373 posts, RR: 21
Reply 13, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3383 times:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 10):
Great. And yet, according to the article I cited, it's failing. Six on one hand, half a dozen on the other.

Take the article with a grain of salt. Journalists can be wrong too.


User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3383 times:

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 11):
lol well "will some European socialist countries fail?" for example.

That's not what the article said.

[Edited 2006-11-09 15:49:05]

User currently offlineAirPacific747 From Denmark, joined May 2008, 2373 posts, RR: 21
Reply 15, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3385 times:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 14):
It still wouldn't fit. Try it; you'll see.

I just tried. It fitted perfectly. Try it yourself and you'll see.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 14):

That's not what the article said.

So the author of the article is wrong.

[Edited 2006-11-09 15:50:16]

User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3388 times:

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 13):
Take the article with a grain of salt. Journalists can be wrong too.

They're not journalists.


User currently offlineAirPacific747 From Denmark, joined May 2008, 2373 posts, RR: 21
Reply 17, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3371 times:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 16):

They're not journalists.

Whatever you call them...


User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9523 posts, RR: 42
Reply 18, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3371 times:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 10):
And yet, according to the article I cited, it's failing. Six on one hand, half a dozen on the other.

In what way? We're much better off, on average, than we were 25 years ago. If you're referring to some Utopia that one or two misguided individuals dreamed of, so what? Most of us are more realistic than that.


User currently onlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5669 posts, RR: 20
Reply 19, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 3338 times:

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 5):
Europeans have a totally different outlook on life than people in the USA. Europeans work to live, while Americans live to work.

 checkmark 

What's wrong with that? We all live only once and spending your life in some stupid rat race just to get a bigger car, bigger house, bigger TV ... is that the purpose? In the end is this what really makes you happy?

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 5):
The average European gets 4-6 weeks of vacation each year

Guaranteed by the law. Isn't that great?

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 5):
but does not have enough money to stay in a motel/hotel for anything close to that long of a time (high cost of living, taxes..) many cannot even afford that for a week, so they huge numbers purchase these "caravans" and head south.

Eh? The only nations in Europe which buy caravans en masse are Scottish and Dutch. I don't know why but I doubt it's because they can't afford jet to Tunisia or Turkey for all inclusive vacation for 400 EUR. It's more some sort of "national trait" same as if you see a motorbike passing you anywhere in Europe 9 out of 10 times it's on German license plates.


User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9523 posts, RR: 42
Reply 20, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 3330 times:

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 19):
The only nations in Europe which buy caravans en masse are Scottish

 confused 

I've known more English caravan owners than Scottish caravan owners. I hardly ever see one on the roads here.  Smile


User currently offlineAirPacific747 From Denmark, joined May 2008, 2373 posts, RR: 21
Reply 21, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 3330 times:

Here's a little something for AerospaceFan:

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=160726

4 of the 5 best countries to live in are all European.

Thanks to VHVXB for providing the article.

[Edited 2006-11-09 16:18:27]

User currently offlineJJJ From Spain, joined May 2006, 1788 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 3330 times:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
The world’s economy is booming at an average rate of over 4%, but Europe’s growth has stagnated at an inflated 1.5%.

Why is Europe performing so poorly?

If economic growth is your only degree of success, yes, Europe is a failure.

Europe scores rather better in quality of life than most other countries. Does that mean that American capitalism is a failure?

Not your typical black & white situation.


User currently offlineArniepie From Belgium, joined Aug 2005, 1265 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 3300 times:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 16):

European socialism isn't some 7 headed uniform beast as you make it out to be.
What you see as the result of socialism namely poor economic growth in comparison with the rest of the industrialized world is actually more the result of reluctance of the ruling political classes in many European countries to step down from a state run economy (the aviation business being an excellent example with SABENA, ALITALIA and many more others) to a fully privatised economy.
Just look at how much money is still flowing towards black-hole money pits like the railroads, postal company's and so on.

We also lack growth in comparison with the US because we don't finance growth with excessive loans and budgetary suicide to maintain economic growth or current level of spending.

What does work better in the US is the way they fund research projects and how they have set up their funding for university's high schools and the likes.
Also they seem to be more open for the import of foreign brain power into their educational system.
All this leads to the US having cutting edge technology and usually being a market pioneer in many fields

Comparing our growth with the likes of INDIA or CHINA is just ridiculous as they are still underdeveloped countries (economy wise that is),besides having a 10 or 12% growth while your per capita GDP is about 3500$ is not as difficult as having a 3% growth when per capita GDP is at a 10 fold.

The good thing about "our" socialism as you call it is to achieve political and social stability by trying to look out for the weaker and less fortunate in society.
You know, this is a big plus for foreign investments, the more stable a country is the better it will run in the long run.

I was in the US to work for about 20 months (mainly Chicago & the east coast area) and I was always surprised at how big the differences where between rich and poor,
For instance over here you won't see anyone at the end of the cashier packing your bags while being 60+ years old.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
part look down their nose at conservatives here who emphasize initiative and self-reliance.

In my eyes that is just a cheap slogan, as if the rest of the world or the progressives in contrary to your conservatives don't emphasize on initiative and self reliance.

I was also under the impression that you conservatives, dare I say Republicans
where all for less government (you know part of being self reliant) and look at what has happened in that regard the last couple of years in that field in the US and UK.

I can never get rid of that uneasy feeling I get when I hear people (mostly the richer , better well off ones) speaking about being more self reliant, It usually is nothing more than an egocentric explanation for not having to pay for contributions for the unfortunate ones.
It's like hearing the likes of PARIS HILTON saying "everybody can make it in this world if you want it hard enough", funny thing is that they usually start believing it themselves.



[edit post]
User currently offlineAndreas From Germany, joined Oct 2001, 6104 posts, RR: 31
Reply 24, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 3281 times:

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 5):
caravans" (for those in the USA, those cheap camping trailers that you can pull behind your car). The average European gets 4-6 weeks of vacation each year, but does not have enough money to stay in a motel/hotel for anything close to that long of a time (high cost of living, taxes..) many cannot even afford that for a week, so they huge numbers purchase these "caravans" and head south.

 rotfl  rotfl  rotfl  rotfl  rotfl  rotfl  rotfl  rotfl  rotfl  rotfl 

That was absolutely hilarious...it took me minutes to calm down again..and I'm still giggling!

but on a serious sidenote: Erm...no, that's not true...as a matter of fact we do have enough money, even the Dutch, so THEY (and it's them alone) just love to drive along German motorways with their caravans as rolling chicanes, must have something to do with football, I suspect each and every Dutch above 18 does own 5 caravans, one to drive himself, 4 more to run on remote control!

But it really was a very funny way of describing European holidays Big grin



I know it's only VfB but I like it!
25 Oldeuropean : Some here neither have a clue about Europe nor about socialism. Axel[Edited 2006-11-09 16:58:40]
26 Toulouse : Very well put DLPMMM. That I think is a bit of an exageration, to say the least. Very true. Great to see my native Ireland there in 4th place! Very i
27 DrDeke : How about this approach: What difference does it make to anyone except the richest one or two per cent of people in the country whether the economy g
28 Post contains links AirPacific747 : Reasonable standard of living? Since when? Again you're generalising too much. As you see above, a handful of countries are doing better than the US
29 DrDeke : Yeah, I didn't really mean to say that I thought European countries were or were not wealthier than the US. I was going along the lines of AerospaceF
30 AirPacific747 : Okay. Sorry I misunderstood your post then.
31 DrDeke : No problem. What I was actually trying to get at (although I didn't address it directly) is summed up very well by your quote below: -DrDeke
32 Post contains images AirPacific747 : I'm glad to see that we agree then
33 Banco : Hardly surprising, since the Trabants that are all you Scots can afford couldn't even pull the towbar...
34 BHXFAOTIPYYC : Socialism in the true sense of the word is dying off in Europe. Technically Britain and Portugal have "socialist" governments, but the ideology has ch
35 AerospaceFan : I want to thank everyone from both continents for their very kind and comprehensive replies. They are most interesting. May I address a few comments i
36 Post contains images Banco : You've been told before about generalising about "Europe" and yet you still persist in doing so. I'm going to start a thread about how the Americas a
37 AerospaceFan : I'm not going to second-guess what the authors of the article in question wrote.
38 JGPH1A : Water of a duck's back. He'll just blame the three-toed sloths for being idle socialist layabouts who have brought this upon themselves, and chastise
39 David L : The fact that things are not "as good as they could have been" is not the same as failure. Yes, there's a lot of bureaucratic waste. Yes, some social
40 Post contains images Banco : Could be pissed Glaswegians. If so, I fully approve of your policy of going straight over them.
41 Post contains images David L : Statistically, in Edinburgh they're more likely to be Australian, Irish, Polish or English.
42 Greasespot : Yah know we do a lot of work with a company in The Netherlands...I used to get frustrated at how they always had these long holidays and wondererd wha
43 AerospaceFan : But the question remains whether they are bequeathing an economy to their children that will stand the test of time.
44 Cairo : America has a way of running its society and economy. The Europeans usually choose a different way to run their societies and economies. Neither is ri
45 AerospaceFan : But we live in an interconnected world. Did you not get the memo? Thus, the U.S. has a right to be concerned if, as seems possible, Europe's allegedl
46 Greasespot : Is the USA? Guess only time will tell. GS
47 DLPMMM : I think we are beyond that now. The world will not slow down on account of the European Union. There are now enough economic drivers around the world
48 Post contains images Andreas : No, on German Autobahns..trust me on that one!
49 JJJ : Apart from some columnist with an obvious agenda (that is, 'ours is bigger than yours') no one can agree with you here. Adjustments are being done in
50 Sebolino : It's one of the most ridiculous thing I read here. I don't know what to think about that. Anyway, European growth is not high ? OK, so what ? We have
51 Post contains links and images Oldeuropean : No, it's a biased source. The Brussels Journal is a blog, probably with links to Belgian fascists. http://www.opinionjournal.com/wsj/?id=110008853 I
52 Banco : The UK's growth over the last decade and more has been high, and often higher than the US. Ireland's growth has been even higher. This is the problem
53 Post contains images David L : Precisely. Just because we don't fly abroad for every one of those 4-6 weeks doesn't make us "poor". Or that we speak "European" and speak English wi
54 Post contains links and images Pelican : I had a good laugh reading the article. It has nothing to do with serious social science although it tries to sound so. Just look on the first paragra
55 Post contains images AirPacific747 : Great post, Pelican!
56 DLPMMM : The high unemployment rates in Europe among youth is a direct result of the tax and employment security laws of the particular country. In many place
57 Banco : Except that there isn't a high unemployment rate "in Europe". Certainly some countries have a problem here, but by no means all, nor even most. Once
58 AirPacific747 : I know that in my country we don't have that problem as companies can fire people whenever they want, and no penalties will be given to them. That me
59 PanHAM : without reading through all of this and since the remarks about the fact that owning a caravan is mandatory for the Dutch has already been made, a few
60 AirPacific747 : I really don't get how this thread got so long with those vague sources to begin with. This topic is really far out.
61 Toulouse : What an excellent post PanHAM. Well done.
62 Post contains images Andreas : Sometimes you remember, sometimes you don't...funny you! Actually I did get that idea as well...it looked a lot like so many "pamphlets" of that Flem
63 Post contains links AerospaceFan : However, the U.S. economy has proved itself capable of rectifying deficits, since even in the last two years, the deficit has been much less than pre
64 Banco : Different countries calculate unemployment rates in different ways, hence the OECD providing a comparative study. US unemployment is higher, not lowe
65 AerospaceFan : I'd like to take a look at the figures, please.
66 Post contains links Pelican : Unfortunately empirical data does not really support your thesis. The unemployment rate among people aged 15 to 24 in 2005 was: Austria: 10.3% (labou
67 Post contains images Banco : The link has already been provided. Clearly you didn't look at it.
68 NoUFO : Dang, the threat thread starter's post was a real eye opener. Now I know I won't be the wealthiest man in the cemetery (if I'm going to get shot in th
69 AerospaceFan : However, the link provided gave figures for 2005, which means that by now the information given is approximately two years hold (assuming a time lag
70 Post contains links Pelican : Unfortunately I don't have a public source with fertility rates. My figures were taken out of a book. But you could find the US fertilty rates with g
71 AerospaceFan : Thank you. I would, however, like some more current figures, as I noted in the following:
72 JJJ : What exactly makes you think things may have drastically changed in 2 years? The rethoric in your original article and your posts is simply wrong, th
73 Pelican : Well, now we have 2006 (at least I think so) which means the figures for 2005 are nearly one year old (2005 +1 = 2006). And we have to wait for some
74 Pelican : Sorry, it should read: I don't think the gap like between the UK (4.7%) and the US (5.1%) makes a big difference. pelican
75 AerospaceFan : That may be. I had in mind the fact that we're nearly at 2007, however. Perhaps you are right. But I daresay that there has to be a reason that there
76 Pelican : Sure, but the figures of 2005 include also November and December 2005, which are still younger than a year. Well, I suppose much of it is ideology. T
77 David L : The ones Pelican was talking about in the same paragraph, perhaps? Then the new figures are nearly available.
78 Banco : Unless you know a way to compile full year 2006 figures before the end of next month, 2005 is the latest you are going to get. Things will not change
79 JJJ : The choice of words betrays them, mostly they're misled just by thinking there is a 'European economy' beyond a group of different (and differently l
80 AerospaceFan : I think that one should probably look at two thing, among others: 1. What is the OECB methodology, and does it understate or overstate performance? 2
81 Banco : Incidentally, I mentioned Britain as being different simply because I am most familiar with British figures and economic performance, not because Bri
82 AerospaceFan : I would disagree. I think that there are many critics of European (and British) performance (with the exception of British performance after Margaret
83 Post contains links Pelican : Quite frankly speaking I would have to do a search to give you an accurate answer, but I'm to lazy to do it. Therefore I suggest you, do have a look
84 Post contains images Banco : It might do either, but anyone with any awareness of comparative statistics knows that getting them accurate and meaningful is extremely difficult. T
85 Pelican : Hm, could it be - I mean the reason - that the US of A is the biggest single economy within the West (and the world, too). And was also the largest m
86 AerospaceFan : Actually, it's because I'd like verification of the truth of these figures in reality. We all know, particularly from reading this Forum, that there
87 Post contains images David L : There are people from many countries who have misinformed views of affairs beyond their own borders. So what? Are you saying you picked a dodgy artic
88 Banco : The OECD doesn't qualify as reality? What are expecting, judgement from God? There are undoubtedly some, but what you may find is that when you launc
89 Post contains links OU812 : http://www.nationalreview.com/kudlow/kudlow200603251037.asp March 25, 2006, 10:37 a.m. Paddle the French Fanny They sure need it. Why is it that so ma
90 Post contains links OU812 : As dreadful as this was . I feel required to mention the over 35,000 elderly deaths as a result of the failed EU social system . Please note this arti
91 Post contains images Petertenthije : I must congratulate you on making mayor improvements. You managed to stop making false generalising claims about entire continents, and are now only
92 DLPMMM : You really need to get a sense of humor. Good humor always has a grain of truth to it. I've driven through France and Germany in July many times and
93 Petertenthije : Hear here!
94 AirPacific747 : Yes. This thread is seriously bothering me. Some of you US-Americans in this thread are stereotyping a lot about Europe and are stating things which
95 Pelican : No, it was not. You should read your own posts more carefully. You were about tax and employment security. The taxation has nothing to do with high y
96 Post contains links Joni : True, Socialism maintains that the means of production must be collectively owned, so a country with e.g. a stock market cannot be considered "social
97 AerospaceFan : "Socialism" in the United States is very much a negative concept, not the least of which is because it implies that government can coercively take pri
98 Joni : Under that definition just collecting taxes to pay for unemployment benefits would be "socialism" and e.g. the Unites States (as well as most other c
99 AerospaceFan : That's surprising true -- some people in this country consider unemployment benefits if paid by the government to be illegitimate for that very reaso
100 Baroque : I think it was written by the ghost of Friedrich Hayek. A minor point of interest is that the sone of Hayek worked in the UK NHS as a doctor for some
101 Pelican : Out of curiosity - could you elaborate on the "large hole theory of economic"? pelican
102 AerospaceFan : Some years ago I participated in a debate on another Website about whether military spending was qualitatively different from spending, say, on the m
103 Post contains links Baroque : It is a theory partly in jest but it is also possible to see the logic. Just at present I cannot find references, but from the wiki site http://en.wi
104 Pelican : Thanks a lot! I've never heard of it before. It does have a certain appeal. Next time I've too much time in the university library I'll probably look
105 Post contains images AerospaceFan : Baroque, as I say, I never did get a proper resolution to the debate. It's probably because I need a refresher on precisely why some economists are ce
106 Baroque : In the longer run (apart from us all being dead!) one of the wonderful arguments with economists has to be the argument about growth. With finite res
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