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Finger-printing Of US Citizens In Brazil  
User currently offlineBOAC911 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 452 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 4373 times:

Could anyone update me on this. I arrived in GRU Oct 21, and didn't notice any "U.S. passport lane. They had one three yeas ago.

39 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineUSFlyer MSP From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2105 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4311 times:

The law requiring the fingerprinting and photographing of US citizens expired.

User currently offlineSampa737 From Brazil, joined May 2005, 637 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4258 times:

That was a horrible time. I would have volunteer teams arriving into GRU around 8am. Then, they'd spend several hours in line getting finger printed and photographed. I'm thankful those days are over!

User currently offlinePtugarin From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 326 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3819 times:

I think retaliation is foolish and makes everyone's life more difficult, including Brazilian immigration officers. Any action should have a justification and not just eye-for-eye.

User currently offlineA3 From Greece, joined Oct 2006, 262 posts, RR: 8
Reply 4, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3764 times:

Every sovereign nation has the right to screen who will let in.
USA is using the strictest procedures in the world .
However, when is placing the citizens of allied nations like E.U , in a procedure similar to criminals arrested, than the feeling created is negative.
When same measures are implemented from the other side then are called unjustified!!!.
To my opinion, this kind of measures should be implemented from all nations that object when there citizens are treated like criminals.
Maybe this will wake up the US administration to realize that treating people like that is not to the US interest.



Don't spend your money on airlines that don't respect your business.
User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24815 posts, RR: 46
Reply 5, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 3736 times:

Quoting A3 (Reply 8):
To my opinion, this kind of measures should be implemented from all nations that object when there citizens are treated like criminals.
Maybe this will wake up the US administration to realize that treating people like that is not to the US interest.

As the Brazilians can attest finger printing US Citizens cost them quite a bit of money in lost tourism revenues and negative press in the US.
Its no coincidence the Mayor of Rio along with large companies and tourism organization lobbied hard for the central government to drop its policy.

Right or wrong, quite clearly most countries need the US more, than the US needs them hence how the US can implement such policies without much backlash.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9155 posts, RR: 29
Reply 6, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 3728 times:

Quoting Ptugarin (Reply 7):
I think retaliation is foolish and makes everyone's life more difficult, including Brazilian immigration officers. Any action should have a justification and not just eye-for-eye.

You are right. What is the justification to take my fingerprints? I am a honorable citizen of an allied nation without a criminal record, I earn my keep, pay for my expenses and bring money to the country. I do not fit the profile of any potential terrorist, I had a life/multiple entry visa which was only voided because of the Visa waiver program. I never exceed my stay in the US, I did not even get a single parking or speeding ticket in all my visits/stays over 37 years.

The general feeling in Europe is, that fingerprinting is for criminals only. It is no fun, being treated like a criminal upon entering a country, especially not when you really like that country, which I still do.

If a country reacts like Brazil did, I would not call it stupid retaliation.

[Edited 2006-11-12 10:05:07]


E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineA3 From Greece, joined Oct 2006, 262 posts, RR: 8
Reply 7, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 3710 times:

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 9):
Right or wrong, quite clearly most countries need the US more, than the US needs them hence how the US can implement such policies without much backlash.

You are absolutely right.

Some nations are in deep red and may put aside their public feeling, wile some others don¢t .
It¢s a matter of timing. No matter what the governments do the public feeling exists and it grows.

At the bottom line if some nation thinks that, their citizen¢s pride is not more important than some tourists business, than they should let go any screening procedures.
This way no one can accuse them for retaliation  Wink



Don't spend your money on airlines that don't respect your business.
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26361 posts, RR: 76
Reply 8, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3698 times:

Quoting Magyar (Reply 3):
But should not abolish the requirement. If the US
has the right to collect personal information of foreigners everybody else should.

Absolutely.

Quoting COSPN (Reply 4):
Yes the Moment US Citizens destroy Buildings in Brazil all US Citizens should be fingerprinted....

Ok. The moment Brazilian citizens blow up buildings in the US, all Brazilian citizens should be fingerprinted.

Here is another. The momenet US Citizens destroy buildings in the US, all US Citizens should be fingerprinted. Oh wait...



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineBjg231 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 163 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3688 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 10):
If a country reacts like Brazil did, I would not call it stupid retaliation.

Does Brazil have the right to react in that manner? Absolutely. Are they stupid for doing so? No question.

They're only shooting themselves in the foot by wasting time and money on a political move that carries no weight in international politics.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 10):
I am a honorable citizen of an allied nation

If the US limited its fingerprinting policy to only ecompass citizens of "unfriendly" states, all a terrorist would have to do is get a german passport and fly from that country to bypass these security measures. This of course says nothing of potential terrorists from "friendly" states.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 10):
without a criminal record, I earn my keep, pay for my expenses and bring money to the country. I do not fit the profile of any potential terrorist, I had a life/multiple entry visa which was only voided because of the Visa waiver program. I never exceed my stay in the US, I did not even get a single parking or speeding ticket in all my visits/stays over 37 years.

Do you have any idea how expensive and time consuming it would be to do a background check on each and every international visitor that enters our borders? Talk about treating people like criminals...

That being said, having to fingerprint and photograph visitors is truly an inconvenience and is at times, insulting. However, I feel its necessary if not for US national security interests, than for political ones. Dropping these precautions runs the risk of political suicide if another attack were to occur (even a minor one).



If at first you don't succeed, then skydiving is not for you.
User currently offlineA3 From Greece, joined Oct 2006, 262 posts, RR: 8
Reply 10, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3678 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 12):
The momenet US Citizens destroy buildings in the US, all US Citizens should be fingerprinted. Oh wait...

Oh my !! You know how to scratch wounds  Wink



Don't spend your money on airlines that don't respect your business.
User currently offlineCsavel From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 1362 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3655 times:

The whole fingerprinting for passport citizens of friendly nations is mere security theater, just for show, meant to
1) show fearful Americans who are ignorant and don't travel how we are not letting those dang furriners in
2) covering the rear ends of any politicians in case something happens
3) getting people so used to having to show ID and then submitting to fingerprints (Some US states are beginning to do this for drivers licenses - watch it be a requirement for US citizens to get their passports) that like the proverbial frog in the boiling water,we won't realize we live in a place where we have to ask permission to travel until it is too late

Yes I know there are a lot of extremists from Britain and Germany and all they have to do is get a passport, but then again, same is to be said about extremists WITHIN the US, plus if I were Al Qaeda, I'd be looking for some blonde haired blue eyed convert from Alabama to be the next suicide bomber,I mean come on.

PS I don't necessarily fingerprinting or background checks of nationals from certain countries is always a bad idea, perhaps the Dep't of State, if it was done INDEPENDENTLY without influence from the politicians, can assess what countries require additional screening.


PS
Security theater is as bad, if not worse in Britain.

PPS Upon preview, I accidently spelled "passport" as "assport" I was extremely tempted to not correct it.



I may be ugly. I may be an American. But don't call me an ugly American.
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9155 posts, RR: 29
Reply 12, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3646 times:

Quoting Bjg231 (Reply 13):
They're only shooting themselves in the foot by wasting time and money on a political move that carries no weight in international politic

possible, It'sup to them to decide that.

Quoting Bjg231 (Reply 13):
If the US limited its fingerprinting policy to only ecompass citizens of "unfriendly" states, all a terrorist would have to do is get a german passport

it is not that easy to obtain a German passport, although some potential customers did get citizenship, like the (in)famous Mr. el Masri from Ulm. Profiling did the trick here and Mr el Masri was obvioulsy taken for questioning, at least thats what he claims and the US does not deny.

Quoting Bjg231 (Reply 13):
Do you have any idea how expensive and time consuming it would be to do a background check on each and every international visitor that enters our borders? Talk about treating people like criminals.

Guess what the US are doing right now. When I book my flight on the internet, the airline sends an e-mail requiring me to answer with some personal data like passport number ets. Plus the data they have on fiule ( I am FF woith BA and LH, so they have my credit card numbers, FF numbers and the full profile, this data is send to the TSA and run through a computer program. Every passenger and every foreigner arriving to the US is pre-checked, otherwise he will not be acceptet for the flight. We pay for that as passengers BTW.

I do not object the pre-clearance, I have nothing to hide and usually my time in front of the INS inspector is less than a minute. Just stamps flying and "have a nice stay, Sir"..

My point is just that fingerprinting in Europe is something limited to criminals and if Uncle Sam takes your prints one feels like beeing treated as such. Not nice to greet the visitors. Plus, I cannot see the reason for fingerprints other that they know the attackers identity immediately AFTER an attack. 9/11, as we all know, could have been prevented if the various Government agencies had updated and compared their existing knwoledge about these guys. Here we are back to profiling which alone is not good oif the necessary consequences and actions are not taken.

Britain has been quite successful recently and may be the US as well with profiling and secret surveillance. That does the trick and I do hope they will be that succfessfull in the future. Taking pictures and fingerprints is just PC rubbish like the new regulations with liqiids.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlinePhilb From Ireland, joined May 1999, 2915 posts, RR: 13
Reply 13, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 3572 times:

Quoting Csavel (Reply 15):
PS
Security theater is as bad, if not worse in Britain.

Explain pls


User currently offlineLegacy135 From Switzerland, joined May 2005, 1052 posts, RR: 26
Reply 14, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 3514 times:

Quoting Bjg231 (Reply 13):
If the US limited its fingerprinting policy to only ecompass citizens of "unfriendly" states, all a terrorist would have to do is get a german passport and fly from that country to bypass these security measures. This of course says nothing of potential terrorists from "friendly" states.

This is a very simple way to see the problem. If it makes you feel safer, I am happy to give you my fingerprints.

Quoting Bjg231 (Reply 13):
Dropping these precautions runs the risk of political suicide if another attack were to occur (even a minor one).

Didn't that already happen to start? Regards to Donald and W's other highly qualified consultants Big grin

Quoting Csavel (Reply 15):
Yes I know there are a lot of extremists from Britain and Germany and all they have to do is get a passport, but then again, same is to be said about extremists WITHIN the US, plus if I were Al Qaeda, I'd be looking for some blonde haired blue eyed convert from Alabama to be the next suicide bomber,I mean come on.

This is very ture.

I am not about to start a political thread at all, I am not anti American and I do love this country and it's people. I am positively minded that if we are patient, we shall see things becoming normal again, making all those doubtful checks just another piece of history.

Cheers
Legacy135 Wink


User currently offlineULMFlyer From Brazil, joined Sep 2006, 475 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 3497 times:

Quoting USFlyer MSP (Reply 1):
The law requiring the fingerprinting and photographing of US citizens expired.



Quoting Laxintl (Reply 9):
As the Brazilians can attest finger printing US Citizens cost them quite a bit of money in lost tourism revenues and negative press in the US.



Quoting Bjg231 (Reply 13):
Does Brazil have the right to react in that manner? Absolutely. Are they stupid for doing so? No question.

Some clarifications here are required. This was NEVER a law nor was it mandated by the federal government. Rather, it was ordered by a federal judge in response to some lawyer who thought that the diplomatic principle of reciprocity should apply after the US implemented its system (reciprocity is the reason why visas are required of US citizens but not Europeans). IIRC, at some point in time, the fingerprinting was only taking place at GRU, but not GIG. I suppose after a while the judge reversed himself or a higher court ruled against the measure.

Obviously, immigration officials were caught by surprise and didn't have the necessary infrastructure to comply with the ruling. Hence, the mess experienced at GRU and negative press. The government was never in favor of this either. However, it was never a question of money. I suppose if Brazil really wanted to implement a system as efficient as the American, it could be done without much lost revenue. It would still be a waste of tax payers' money and thus isn't even debated.



Let's go Pens!
User currently offlinePar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7054 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 3483 times:

This is just a small look into how international politics has changed. One man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter, can any country now rely on the screening process of another, profiling is illegal in many countries, as is the sharing of information with foreign countries, it's ok to collect domestically.

The only thing that one can do is attempt to make things for difficult for criminals, what gets frustrating is that everyone knows whats a bad and faulty plan, alternative suggestions seem to be in short supply.


User currently offlineBOAC911 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 452 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3385 times:

Quoting USFlyer MSP (Reply 1):
he law requiring the fingerprinting and photographing of US citizens expired.

I already have my answer. Thank you. Everything else is politics.


User currently offlineEksath From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 1295 posts, RR: 25
Reply 18, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 3348 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
ARTICLE EDITOR

Quoting Philb (Reply 17):
Quoting Csavel (Reply 15):PS
Security theater is as bad, if not worse in Britain.


[quote=Philb,reply=17]Explain pls

CCTV and Prevention of Terrorism Act

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/ACTS/acts2005/20050002.htm



World Wide Aerospace Photography
User currently offlinePhilb From Ireland, joined May 1999, 2915 posts, RR: 13
Reply 19, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 3317 times:

Quoting Eksath (Reply 22):
CCTV and Prevention of Terrorism Act

Much as some of the provisions of the Prevention of Terrorism Act are overdone, they are nowhere near as severe (or used as an excuse for overzealous policing by everyone from the real policing authorities through so called security guards to busy body citizens) as the provisions of the Patriot Act.

As for CCTV cameras, the bulk of those in the UK are provided for and used for the prevention of street crime, theft in stores and malls and for traffic purposes. Those specifically installed for anti terrorist activities are in the City of London and near buldings of national importance and were originally put in place in the light of IRA atrocities.

They may be over intrusive in some instances but I prefer the atmosphere visiting London, Manchester, Leeds etc., to the atmosphere visiting NYC, Boston, Philadelphia and DC - which wasn't the case before Bush and his cronies decided to pile fear on fear - something Blair hasn't suceeded in doing in quite the same way.


User currently offlineAeronut From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 137 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3243 times:

whatever... there are two sides to the story. I recently had to relocate to work down in the States and had to sucumb to Fingerprint scanner. I am not a criminal so why would I be concerned about giving by fingerprints? Because somewhere there exists a file on me in some database somewhere, and don't kid yourself, that info would be used if there was ever deemed a need to use it, regardless of the US constituion, or whatever else thats in place to keep that info private.

Of course the next logical step when DNA testing becomes cheap enough is to take DNA samples of foreigners when they enter the US as well.


User currently offlineMadairdrie From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2006, 119 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3216 times:

Can someone please tell me what the US gets out of fingerprinting etc? I have never really seen the point of the exercise.
Kenneth


User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7531 posts, RR: 8
Reply 22, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3162 times:

I wouldn't care if a foreign country took my finger prints and photo, but only the way the US does, meaning, non-ink finger print that takes about 2 seconds.


"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineDZ09 From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 491 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3100 times:

Quoting A3 (Reply 8):
However, when is placing the citizens of allied nations like E.U , in a procedure similar to criminals arrested, than the feeling created is negative.

I was treated to that special room at Athens airport last year, where I was stripped down to my birthday suit except for my shorts. My fault was checking in at the last minute. I told the screener that they should at least buy me dinner first. They did not get it! The good thing about it is that they completely emptied my briefcase which gave me a chance to get rid of lot of junk i'd been carrying around. It is what it is.....


User currently offlineA3 From Greece, joined Oct 2006, 262 posts, RR: 8
Reply 24, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3042 times:

Quoting DZ09 (Reply 35):
I was treated to that special room at Athens airport last year, where I was stripped down to my birthday suit except for my shorts. My fault was checking in at the last minute. I told the screener that they should at least buy me dinner first. They did not get it! The good thing about it is that they completely emptied my briefcase which gave me a chance to get rid of lot of junk i'd been carrying around. It is what it is.....

I can understand how annoying this was for you.

I suppose it’s not that often (I have been in and out ATH many many times but never had any delays of that kind) and for sure it’s not a standard procedure.

But what is happening in US entry points is a standard procedure and its definitely embracing and annoying to all US allied country citizens.

I think you can see the difference between something that may have happened to one US citizen and something that is happening to all non-US citizens every time that they visit US.

[Edited 2006-11-12 18:11:06]


Don't spend your money on airlines that don't respect your business.
25 Acabgd : Fine, so please tell me why are EU citizens fingerprinted when entering the USA? What is a justification? What has the EU done to deserve so?
26 Post contains images PennPal : Not my statement. OH HORRORS!!! PLEASE, EVERY AMERICAN READING THIS...PRAY FOR A DEMOCRAT TO WIN THE WHITE HOUSE SO THESE BELOVED EUROPEANS WILL STAR
27 Post contains images A3 : Duno …. Maybe buy and sell Boeings to each other???
28 Post contains images FXramper : AA Sr Capt Dale R. Hirch's opinion of finger printing in Brasil.
29 Atmx2000 : Despite what European media tells you, European governments conduct far more domestic surveillance than the US does. The reason is that you all have
30 Atmx2000 : Fingerprinting can be used to determine whether someone is who their passport says they are and whether they are using forged or stolen documents to
31 Post contains links A3 : That is the result of the arrogance created …… also http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/01/12/world/main592699.shtml This is how companies try not
32 L410Turbolet : Read reply #15, which describes it perfectly.
33 PlaneHunter : How do you know what "European media" (whatever that generalisation means) tell? How many European media sources have you checked so far? PH
34 PanHAM : Excuse me, could you kindly explain to me how that is possible? My passport is valid and not forged, I am the person shown in the passport. My finger
35 DZ09 : I am glad that everybody is treated the same way here in the States, Why should Europeans or any other group of people be treated differently? They t
36 A3 : I really can’t understand why some people(and/or administrations ) are trying so hard to loose friends and allies……
37 Bwest : It's a slow process where we are giving up our personal freedom and privacy for an, often fake, feeling of more security. We live in a world which is
38 Post contains images Sv2008 : How many business travellers do you think are from Europe? What about tens of thousands of tourists every year? I think you'd notice (or at least a l
39 Derico : I don't have much sympathy for foreigners complaining about a sovereign nation's immigration policy. Don't like the US policy? Don't go! Foreign touri
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