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Should Religion Be "Adult Content"?  
User currently offlineJoni From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 2297 times:

It occurred to me (Ok, I also read Elton John's comments a few days ago) that religion could perhaps be subject to same kinds of restrictions as e.g. alcohol, meaning that subjecting minors to it would be banned.

If this was the case, then people could grow up and make up as adults their mind on how to relate to the world, and they could make this decision in a more objective way. Somehow I have the feeling that without childhood conditioning (brainwashing), the number of theists would simply collapse, with significant gains to society in the form of happier, more balanced people. These citizens would also be tolerant, open-minded and understand that they are responsible for what goes on in the world, not fairies and spirits.

Thoughts?

57 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 2289 times:

Can't really restrict religion in the same way as alcohol, because despite being inherently harmful, it is an idea, not a substance. What we could ensure though is that religion is not taught in public schools - let parents and/or churches teach religion if they want to, don't make taxpayers cough up for it.

I watched the movie "Saved" on TV this afternoon (it was raining), and I was horrified ! I know it's a comedy, and bound to be full of charicature, but there might be some reality upon which it is based. What a scary concept !


User currently offlineSATX From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2840 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 2283 times:

 checkmark  100%.

Spirituality and religion certainly have their place, but I believe that it takes an adult mind to properly understand them and to make the right decision for how far you're willing to travel down the rabbit hole. Teaching kids how to read, write, and multiply is one thing, but feeding them concepts that can easily divide us and give us even more reasons to hate and harm each other is probably going a bit too far. You can teach a child the difference between right and wrong without having to bring in the potential vengeance of invisible creatures with bizarre tenets and the vague promises of some flowery and sugary afterlife.



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User currently offlineMBMBOS From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2597 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 2274 times:

Quoting Joni (Thread starter):
Somehow I have the feeling that without childhood conditioning... (brainwashing)

The strongest predictor of religious affiliation is the religous affiliation of one's parents. So much for being blinded on the road to Damascus.


User currently offlineTom in NO From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 7194 posts, RR: 32
Reply 4, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2240 times:

Isn't that a part of what parenting is all about?.....teaching them about values, about right and wrong, etc, etc? As a responsible father who has two young daughters enrolled in a Lutheran elementary school, I have the right as a parent to see that they are raised in such a way that they will make a positive contribution to society and be law-abiding citizens. If that includes a spiritual foundation, so be it, and who are you to attempt to regulate it?

And while you're at it, why not regulate even more of a pressing issue with today's children.....obesity, and keeping the kids away from the candy dish and the fast food restaurants  sarcastic  ?!

Tom at MSY



"The criminal ineptitude makes you furious"-Bruce Springsteen, after seeing firsthand the damage from Hurricane Katrina
User currently offlineLowrider From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 3220 posts, RR: 10
Reply 5, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2235 times:

Quoting Joni (Thread starter):
Somehow I have the feeling that without childhood conditioning (brainwashing), the number of theists would simply collapse, with significant gains to society in the form of happier, more balanced people.

So theists are unhappy and unbalanced? I beg to differ. Legal issues aside, even if such a law were passed, I would continue to teach my children in my home.

Quoting Joni (Thread starter):
Thoughts?

I think you have a very myopic view of spirituality and religion. I don't know where you get it from. I would suggest some reading, but you would probably blow me off and ridicule my selections, so I won't waste your time or mine.



Proud OOTSK member
User currently offlineHalls120 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2210 times:

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 1):
Can't really restrict religion in the same way as alcohol, because despite being inherently harmful, it is an idea, not a substance. What we could ensure though is that religion is not taught in public schools - let parents and/or churches teach religion if they want to, don't make taxpayers cough up for it.

ÊÊ I'm not surprised that this discussion has been started, but it has shows just how tenuous our free society really is. Here was have an otherwise educated individual suggesting "Let's ban an idea until you are an adult," in a fashion that is not only antithetical to freedom in general, but shows just how some people would love for the state to have a more direct control in the raising of children.

Quoting SATX (Reply 2):
Spirituality and religion certainly have their place, but I believe that it takes an adult mind to properly understand them and to make the right decision for how far you're willing to travel down the rabbit hole.

So, SATX, how do you propose to enforce your stated desire to control thought?

[Edited 2006-11-19 23:38:09]

User currently offlineMirrodie From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 7443 posts, RR: 62
Reply 7, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2189 times:
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Interesting thought, but the word "adult" would have to be defined.


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User currently offlineOly720man From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 6738 posts, RR: 11
Reply 8, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2188 times:

I'm not religious.

For the most part, from my limited knowledge, religion is about tolerance, respect and, basically being a decent person. Teach that, whether at home or at school.

It is the divisions amongst (between?) us that bring out the worst in those with other agendas and see kids being brainwashed into hating different people. It's the messengers at fault, not the message...



wheat and dairy can screw up your brain
User currently offlineJoni From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2188 times:

Children are already protected from e.g. pornography, which may be seen by some as antithetical to free speech.

The practical issue I see in this would be how to tell parents to not feed their bizarre ideas to their children. Schools could be instructed just by adjusting the curriculum to teach a reality-based outlook, but parents in homes would be more difficult - perhaps if this policy was adopted they should just be discouraged from teaching religious ideas to their children, with no sanctions threatened.

Overall this would be rather easy to implement, since even if children were to come across religious literature they'd be unlikely to take much interest. (this is not the case with pornography...)


User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2184 times:

Quoting Joni (Thread starter):
It occurred to me (Ok, I also read Elton John's comments a few days ago) that religion could perhaps be subject to same kinds of restrictions as e.g. alcohol, meaning that subjecting minors to it would be banned.

That would be a clear violation of the first amendment (in the US anyway.)

Quote:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof


User currently offlineHalls120 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2177 times:

Quoting Joni (Reply 9):
The practical issue I see in this would be how to tell parents to not feed their bizarre ideas to their children. Schools could be instructed just by adjusting the curriculum to teach a reality-based outlook, but parents in homes would be more difficult - perhaps if this policy was adopted they should just be discouraged from teaching religious ideas to their children, with no sanctions threatened.

You are going to tell parents who have faith they "shouldn't" teach religious ideas to their children?  rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 


User currently offlineSATX From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2840 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2173 times:

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 6):
So, SATX, how do you propose to enforce your stated desire to control thought?

I don't really care if religion stays or goes, I just want it to stop screwing with non-religious like myself. That's all. The sooner religion gets out of politics and stops trying to restrict what non-religious folks can do (such as match up with who they want and maintain control over their own bodies) the sooner I can go back to ignoring it. America is one of the most pro-Christian countries in the world right now, but most of the impact I've seen on American society has been something other that positive from my viewpoint. Tolerance and compassion seem to be under attack while while greed and arrogance seem to be on the increase. The sooner that trend reverses the better.



Open Season on Consumer Protections is Just Around the Corner...
User currently offlineNeilYYZ From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2163 times:

Quoting Joni (Thread starter):
Thoughts?

Personally, I think it's a horrible idea.

My parents brought me to church until I was about 10 or 12, then they told me that I no longer had to go if I didn't want to, they didn't go after that. I kept on going, it was my choice, I'm not there every Sunday, but fairly regularly, my sister on the other hand, hit that age where my parents told her it was a choice, and she chose not to go anymore.

Part of the reason I think church is good is because it provides a social network with people and also produces some humility, teaches values, morals and responsibility.


User currently offlineBezoar From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 807 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2163 times:

God was banned from the classroom in the U.S. a while back. So, how are the schools doing?

Our classrooms are more full of apathetic and poorly educated students now than they ever were. We have powerless administrations that coddle these kids because we fear squashing their self-esteem. The kids get away with just about anything, and are disrespectful of all kinds of authority. The kids are more overwhelmed by peer power and the appearance of being 'cool'.

The schools are so ripe with drugs, violence, & fear that it seems to be the exception that any graduate somewhat prepared for the next phase of their lives.

Surely, I'm going overboard here. There are exceptions. But I would wager that a significant percentage of the these exceptions come from families, such as Tom in NO's, where some kinds of lasting values are instilled in the children from an early age.

I'm still perplexed at what values, and foundation for those values, the godless community has to offer.



"There are none so blind as those who will not see."
User currently offlineConcentriq From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 368 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2159 times:

Quoting Bezoar (Reply 14):
God was banned from the classroom in the U.S. a while back. So, how are the schools doing?

your arguments are pretty superficial. I fail to see the connection between "lack of god" in classroom and the instances you describe.



Mobilis In Mobili
User currently offlineHalls120 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2153 times:

Quoting SATX (Reply 12):

I don't really care if religion stays or goes, I just want it to stop screwing with non-religious like myself. That's all.

Really? That isn't what you implied here:

Quoting SATX (Reply 2):
Teaching kids how to read, write, and multiply is one thing, but feeding them concepts that can easily divide us and give us even more reasons to hate and harm each other is probably going a bit too far.

So how should we mandate that these concepts no longer be taught to children?

Quoting SATX (Reply 12):
The sooner religion gets out of politics and stops trying to restrict what non-religious folks can do (such as match up with who they want and maintain control over their own bodies) the sooner I can go back to ignoring it.

Agree with you here, but banning the teaching of religion isn't the answer.


User currently offlineCtbarnes From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3491 posts, RR: 50
Reply 17, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2148 times:

I'm surprised no one has made the joke yet about knowing someone in the "biblical" sense.  

Charles, SJ

[Edited 2006-11-20 00:46:46]


The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
User currently offlineSATX From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2840 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2146 times:

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 16):
Quoting SATX (Reply 12):

I don't really care if religion stays or goes, I just want it to stop screwing with non-religious like myself. That's all.

Really? That isn't what you implied here:

Quoting SATX (Reply 2):
Teaching kids how to read, write, and multiply is one thing, but feeding them concepts that can easily divide us and give us even more reasons to hate and harm each other is probably going a bit too far.

So how should we mandate that these concepts no longer be taught to children?

If I were to seriously push for the banning of religion then I'd be no better than folks like Jerry Falwell or Pat Roberson. Thus, I'm willing to leave it alone so long as it leaves me alone. What really sucks is that it's not leaving me alone and seems to be getting more and more involved in my life and the lives of those I care about all the time.



Open Season on Consumer Protections is Just Around the Corner...
User currently offlineLowrider From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 3220 posts, RR: 10
Reply 19, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2132 times:

Quoting SATX (Reply 2):
but feeding them concepts that can easily divide us and give us even more reasons to hate and harm each other is probably going a bit too far

Well, that rules out teaching not only religion, but law, politics, history, economics, and philosophy to name a few.

Quoting SATX (Reply 18):
What really sucks is that it's not leaving me alone and seems to be getting more and more involved in my life and the lives of those I care about all the time.

A curious statement. Unless they come pounding on your door or want to drag you into a star chamber, how exactly are "religious people" getting more and more involved in your life? If you want most folks to go away, they will. If not, there are restraining orders for.



Proud OOTSK member
User currently offlineBezoar From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 807 posts, RR: 8
Reply 20, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2126 times:

Quoting Concentriq (Reply 15):
your arguments are pretty superficial.

I won't argue with this comment.  Smile

It would be beyond my expertise to prove a cause and effect here, and I apologize for being unable to do so. Though any evidence may only be circumstantial, I think the chronology itself is rather compelling.

My point primarily is to question from where ANY substantive values in the schools, sans religion and faith, will now come. It seems to me that things are only getting worse, and I suspect it may be that the values being brought forth have no real substance behind them.

The author of the thread referred to educating children about religion and faith as being brain-washing. How is subjecting our kids throughout their childhood to an environment where God and faith are not discussed NOT be brainwashing itself? It staggers my mind to think this is not overwhelmingly obvious, except to those who want atheism to rule the minds of man.

In my mind atheists cannot even adequately defend their position. I can't understand how they justify their values. Why should I be willing to give them full power over my children and my grandchildren?

The answer is that I shouldn't be willing, and I won't.



"There are none so blind as those who will not see."
User currently offlineSATX From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2840 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2126 times:

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 19):
A curious statement. Unless they come pounding on your door or want to drag you into a star chamber, how exactly are "religious people" getting more and more involved in your life? If you want most folks to go away, they will. If not, there are restraining orders for.

What a silly and erroneous statement masquerading as a legitimate argument.


Quoting Lowrider (Reply 19):
Well, that rules out teaching not only religion, but law, politics, history, economics, and philosophy to name a few.

Care to explain how?



Open Season on Consumer Protections is Just Around the Corner...
User currently offlineAa757first From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3350 posts, RR: 7
Reply 22, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2108 times:

Quoting Joni (Thread starter):
If this was the case, then people could grow up and make up as adults their mind on how to relate to the world, and they could make this decision in a more objective way.

Many things are passed down from parents at a young age.

Maybe politics should be protected from children. After all, a child born to liberal parents is far more likely to be liberal.

So absolutely no discussion on global warming, war, peace, abortion, gun control, death penalty, et al until the day the child turns 18 years old.

Oddly enough, I bet you would support making abortion available to a minor. So, in other words, you would allow a 16 year old to balance the pros and cons of a surgical procedure but you wouldn't allow them to say an Our Father every night.

Quoting Joni (Thread starter):
Somehow I have the feeling that without childhood conditioning (brainwashing), the number of theists would simply collapse, with significant gains to society in the form of happier, more balanced people.

I can think of three adult atheists I know. Two have been prescribed psychiatric medications.

Your idea obviously has absolutely nothing to do with protecting children, as seen by this statement. Your idea is trying to ingrain atheism into children so they grow up as atheists. How delightfully tolerant of you.

And, finally, your little proposition violates human rights.

Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 18
Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.

Quoting SATX (Reply 2):
Teaching kids how to read, write, and multiply is one thing, but feeding them concepts that can easily divide us and give us even more reasons to hate and harm each other is probably going a bit too far. You can teach a child the difference between right and wrong without having to bring in the potential vengeance of invisible creatures with bizarre tenets and the vague promises of some flowery and sugary afterlife.

You can also teach right and wrong as you are teaching religion. For example, if/when I have children, they will be raised as Catholics. But, of course, they will be taught to always accept everyone's religious beliefs, including those of Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists and, yes, even atheists.

And, for many, religion and right and wrong are fused together. For example, if my kid asked me what I thought about the death penalty, I would say its wrong. When I asked why, a large part of it would be based on the Commandment "Thou shall not kill." If they asked me about abortion, they would get a similar answer.

I don't see anything wrong with this at all.

AAndrew


User currently offlineLowrider From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 3220 posts, RR: 10
Reply 23, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 2086 times:

Quoting SATX (Reply 21):
What a silly and erroneous statement masquerading as a legitimate argument.

No, it is an honest question. You seem to think that religion is somehow intruding on your life despite you desire to the contrary. I am curious to hear how. As for myself and most of the people I know, if you don't want to hear about religion, we will let it go.

Quoting SATX (Reply 21):
Care to explain how?

Sure. All of the subjects I named have caused divisions in societies and, in most cases, have lead to wars. If you want to include subjects that have not lead to wars, you could include higher mathematics, astronomy, and biology as well.



Proud OOTSK member
User currently offlineSATX From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2840 posts, RR: 6
Reply 24, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 2081 times:

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 23):
Quoting SATX (Reply 21):
What a silly and erroneous statement masquerading as a legitimate argument.

No, it is an honest question. You seem to think that religion is somehow intruding on your life despite you desire to the contrary. I am curious to hear how. As for myself and most of the people I know, if you don't want to hear about religion, we will let it go.

Actually, your first comment implied that unless I was being physically threatened I must have nothing worthwhile to complain about.

For starters, I want non-religious folks to be able to match up with whoever they want and I want non-religious folks to be able to have control over their own bodies, including the ability to use contraception and to have abortions. I want public places and property to be free of religious symbols and I want religious folks to stop supporting politicians through back-door endorsements. There are many other issues, but I'll start with those.

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 23):
All of the subjects I named have caused divisions in societies and, in most cases, have lead to wars. If you want to include subjects that have not lead to wars, you could include higher mathematics, astronomy, and biology as well.

Sorry, but I still don't follow you. Can you provide any specific examples?



Open Season on Consumer Protections is Just Around the Corner...
25 Falcon84 : Sorry, but that's got to be the most assinine idea I have read on here in a long time. I know a lot of poeple on here absolutely despise religion bec
26 Halcyon : I could not put enough check marks to show how much I agree with that statement. Letting the government raise the children basically. Disgusting beyo
27 Lowrider : Is someone preventing you from doing so now? As far as I know, both of these are legal in Texas. Again, has someone prevented you from availaing your
28 MDorBust : The city is going to look pretty bleak after we chop down all the oak trees.
29 Halls120 : Falcon, while I tend to agree with you, part of the reason faith is so consistently attacked is that the extremists of faith have made it easy to do
30 LTBEWR : The teaching of religion starts for most children when they are 4-5 years old, usually from their parents, then if they parents are active in a faith,
31 SATX : Texas (where I live) has banned gay sex (overturned once, might stick next time) gay marriage and gay civil unions. It's true that I don't happen to
32 Lowrider : I see your point on the sex and money issues, and honestly, I don't have any easy answer except that if enough like minded people lobby for change, t
33 Aa757first : Of course it is, since everyone has the freedom to practice their religion. I'm assuming that you are against the death penalty. Say, for example, yo
34 Joni : I fail to see how these resemble religion. Global warming, wars and abortion are all important real-life issues that can be approached using reason.
35 Post contains images Halcyon : Speaking of Hell, where the hell do you get some of this stuff from? Do you get your info from the sci-fi channel? You mean my religion "makes" me be
36 MDorBust : Texas might also in the future create laws that mandate Human/ Alpha Centaurian marriages take place only on the third Monday of months beginning in
37 Post contains links Joni : For example, here is an example http://www1.airliners.net/discussion...on_aviation/read.main/1421610/1/#8 I was a bit surprised to read this, mind yo
38 Post contains images Halcyon : " target=_blank>http://www.adherents.com/Na/Na_516.html If you're using A.net for info on religion. As All from which I can conclude one thing: go int
39 MDorBust : That sounds like yesterday.
40 Aa757first : Because they are both beliefs and opinions that are often passed down from parent to child. everyone (pronoun): every person. person (noun): a human
41 SlamClick : I might agree but only if Atheism is recognized to be the religion that it is.
42 Post contains images Bezoar :
43 JGPH1A : Atheism is not a religion. It is a belief - not the same thing at all. A religion is organised, has an established credo, and proselytises (sp?) for
44 MDorBust : I prefer this definition instead. "The body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices" This one also does fine. "A specific fu
45 Halcyon : Organized in what way?
46 SATX : Oh really? Why is it okay for your fiance to have access to the pill but it's wrong to for those in developing countries? I'd respond to the rest of
47 MDorBust : Because my fiance uses it to control PCOS and not to prevent babies. Quite seriously actually. There's a disconnect though. When I say religion, I th
48 SlamClick : Not as it is practiced in this country. In this country a person's "atheism" can be the victim of offense. That makes it an entity, not a non-entity.
49 SATX : You seem to be confusing atheism with agnosticism. Atheists are just as convinced there is no God as Christians are convinced there is one. Although
50 Kaneporta1 : People usually don't teach their kids to be Republican or Democrat, or whatever equivalent there is in other countries, why do they teach them Christi
51 Post contains images JGPH1A : Chicago has a manual of style ? I would have thought a prerequisite of that would be some style first It is funny that atheists would complain that t
52 SlamClick : I think I have demonstrated an understanding of the difference. I don't believe but I don't care. I am not convinced one way or another. I might ther
53 Halls120 : You still haven't addressed the issue of how you accomplish your desire to restrict the teaching of religion to children. Are you are going to tell p
54 Galapagapop : I like the general concept, but I'd personally just like it to be limited to schools. Just facts, no propgranda for race, party, or religion. Fair bat
55 TedTAce : Freedom of speech... It is every parents 'god' given right to fuck up thier kids in the manner they see fit. If you have the 'right' to stop them tea
56 Joni : There were many points in your post I'd like to address if I had more time, which may be the case at the end of this week. However this analogy isn't
57 Bezoar : I'll offer a couple of analogies that I think show the relationship we have to God: 1) As a parent we don't want to see our children get hurt, and try
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