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Bush 35 Years To Late For Vietnam  
User currently offlineBushpilot From South Africa, joined Jul 2007, 0 posts, RR: 1
Posted (7 years 9 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 2708 times:

I was glad to see our fine President finally show up in Vietnam, unfortunatly for the US and Iraq and the other countries involved, it was simply 35 years to late.
If friends of the Bush family hadnt pulled strings to get GW into the Texas Air National Guard instead of being drafted or enlisting like the good patriot he plays himself out to be, if he would have served in Vietnam, I dont think we would have the problems we are having now.
The only member of the administration who had real service in the Vietnam conflict was Former Sec. State Colin Powell. His service was heroic and exemplary by all accounts. Instead of learning the lessons Powell was taught from the ill-fated decisions in that war, our fine President marginalized him, fired him.
So now we find ourselves stuck in a quagmire, where our military is doing good work themselves. But are being handcuffed by thier political masters. Both American and Iraqi.
So Mr. President, I am more than happy to have my tax dollars fly you over to Vietnam to conduct important business concerning our country. I only wish it was 35 years ago, and we could have used those experiences learned then to prevents the problems we face now.

23 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineSrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (7 years 9 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 2707 times:



User currently offlineAndesSMF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 9 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 2703 times:

Quoting Bushpilot (Thread starter):
I only wish it was 35 years ago, and we could have used those experiences learned then to prevents the problems we face now.

What have you learned? Pull out of a country, let millions die after pullout, and then 35 years later finally see the country be at the same point when we left? There are plenty of lessons to learn from Vietnam, and that is that the country would have been better off (this coming from a Vietnamese friend) if the US had finished the mission with a victory.


User currently offlineOU812 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (7 years 9 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 2682 times:

"Hussein ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies."

"Saddam Hussein engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."

"We had to stop Saddam from ever again jeopardizing the stability and security of his neighbors with weapons of mass destruction."


User currently offlineBushpilot From South Africa, joined Jul 2007, 0 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (7 years 9 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 2675 times:

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 2):
What have you learned?

I learned that the military is not the best organization for nation building. That you MUST have your friends willing to help. The only friend we had in Vietnam was the South Vietnamese and they were largely inept. Also the Aussies, and the Aussies by all accounts served valiantly, but not in large numbers. We didnt have our regional allies with us then, nor do we have them now. The go it alone strategy didnt work then, nor will it work now.
Broad support was not gained from the war in Vietnam, nor was it won for Iraq. In Vietnam, there was no real plan for victory, nor is there now. We have our troops committed in to small of numbers for an indefinate period of time without the support from the locals. The Iraqi government especially Al-Maliki has handcuffed our troops in trying to raid Al-Sadr, in searching for US troops taken hostage, and in entering mosques where US troops are being fired on from.


Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 2):
and that is that the country would have been better off (this coming from a Vietnamese friend) if the US had finished the mission with a victory.

Iraq would surely be better as well if "victory" was achieved. But victory and the reasons for this war have changed so often nobody seems quite sure what it is. Victory will be a stand alone Iraqi government. But they arent interested in that themselves. We can only do so much to help them.
You can lead a horse to water....

My point to this whole thread is that if Bush hadnt been given a freebie out of the fighting and seen it first hand, Cheney as well. If they had been a boot on the ground, and seen how things were mismanaged then, that they would have been less likely to repeat the same mistakes. Instead we find oursevles in the same place.


User currently offlineGSOShutout55 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 125 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (7 years 9 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 2671 times:

You bash our president, yet cannot properly spell "too"?


Right Rudder!!!!!!!!!!
User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (7 years 9 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 2662 times:

He also looked like a Telletubby in that Vietnamese garb. Three decades after Agent Orange, the Vietnamese get to have the last laugh.

Quoting GSOShutout55 (Reply 5):
You bash our president, yet cannot properly spell "too"?

But in his defense, neither can Bush.


User currently offlineOU812 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (7 years 9 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 2661 times:

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 4):
My point to this whole thread is that if Bush hadnt been given a freebie out of the fighting

Bill Clinton's Draft "Dodge" Letter !  eyebrow 

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...shows/clinton/etc/draftletter.html

Dear Colonel Holmes,

I am sorry to be so long in writing. I know I promised to let you hear from me at least once a month, and from now on you will, but I have had to have some time to think about this first letter. Almost daily since my return to England I have thought about writing, about what I want to and ought to say. First, I want to thank you, not just for saving me from the draft,


User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (7 years 9 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 2650 times:

Ok.

Bill Clinton, born on the wrong side of the tracks, avoided the draft by getting straight As in college, graduating at the top of his class and getting a Rhodes Scholarship. Then spent his time at Oxford getting As so he could get admitted to the best Law School in the country. Where he also made straight As.

George Bush, born with a silver spoon in his mouth, avoided the draft by getting his rich Daddy to get him into the Guard. Then spent his days boozing and getting high.

Rush Limbaugh avoided the draft by getting a large oozing pimple on his butt. Then spent his days eating and picking his butt zit.

In all of these 3 stories, I see the American dream in the first, the American reality in the other, and the American nightmare in the last.


User currently offlineAndesSMF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (7 years 9 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 2647 times:

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 4):

Thank you for your perspective. Unfortunately we forget that wars are fought in two fronts, the military and the propaganda front. You must win both to win a war.


User currently offlineSrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (7 years 9 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 2641 times:

Quoting OU812 (Reply 7):
Bill Clinton's Draft "Dodge" Letter !

How can it be considered "draft dodging" when he never received a conscription notice (Same can be said regarding, George W. Bush, Dan Quayle, Howard Dean, and Dick Cheney [Although his multiple deferments are questionable].).


User currently offlineBushpilot From South Africa, joined Jul 2007, 0 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (7 years 9 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 2626 times:

Quoting OU812 (Reply 3):

Good points, but they have nothing to do about how the war has been managed since then. When you can come up with something else give it a try.

Quoting OU812 (Reply 7):
Bill Clinton's Draft "Dodge" Letter !

Oh that is your next try? Bring Bill Clinton into this. I think Jaysit wraps it up nicely for you in his reply.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 8):



Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 9):
Thank you for your perspective. Unfortunately we forget that wars are fought in two fronts, the military and the propaganda front. You must win both to win a war.

See I didnt forget, I know that it is more than two fronts, we have won militarily with a successful invasion. But we have a PR problem on the home front and an actual humanitarian crisis in Baghdad. In the first 20 days of November more Iraqi citizens have been killed since April 2005. Our state department has failed time and time again in securing the help of our regional allies. We made the choice of going it alone to stop the spread of communism in SE Asia. It was a mistake. Now we have gone into Iraq to spread democracy, end terrorism and secure our national interests {see interests as oil} Well, they barely have democracy, or any government for that matter. Terrorism has erupted in Iraq infinatly times more than previously happened, and our national interests arent being served, but instead depleted. Oil costs are still quite high compared to 4 years ago, which makes everything else more expensive.
We are at the point now where if we do pull out of Iraq, the Iranians will swoop down and take over. That is probably correct. But the circumstances that have allowed that very real possibility SHOULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED.
This is not the fault of our military, not the Iraqis, but the entire Bush administration. Condi Rice so far has escaped much criticism, but she hasnt done much to secure the help of Saudi Arabia, or Turkey, or the UAE, or Egypt, who also have a vital interest in the area.


User currently offlineOU812 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (7 years 9 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2608 times:

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 11):
Oh that is your next try? Bring Bill Clinton into this. I think Jaysit wraps it up nicely for you in his reply.

I can't say I blame Clinton for avoiding Nam nor do I hold it against him . However , it nicely points out your hypocrisy & debunks your claims of Bush's lack of military service equated to a quagmire in Iraq , which by the way is your opinion !

IMHO , I feel if Clinton put more time & effort on fighting terrorism rather than pushing it aside as he did things may , may have been different . And if 911 didn't happen we wouldn't be in the situation in Iraq at all . I am not blaming Clinton nor Bush , but the Terrorists , their Leaders , who allow this extreme fundamentalism to flourish & the people who do not want us to win , which in turn emboldened the terrorists !!!

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 4):
The go it alone strategy didnt work then, nor will it work now.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/12/06/dean.iraq.1935/

Dean: U.S. can't win Iraq war
GOP says Democrat leader embraces 'retreat and defeat'

Tuesday, December 6, 2005; Posted: 9:29 p.m. EST (02:29 GMT)

CNN) -- Democratic National Committee Chairman Howard Dean is drawing GOP fire after telling a Texas radio station that the idea the war in Iraq can be won is "just plain wrong."


User currently offlineDavestanKSAN From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 1678 posts, RR: 13
Reply 13, posted (7 years 9 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2596 times:

Quoting OU812 (Reply 12):
And if 911 didn't happen we wouldn't be in the situation in Iraq at all

So your saying Saddam only became evil and needed to be taken out of power after 9/11?

Quoting OU812 (Reply 12):
I can't say I blame Clinton for avoiding Nam nor do I hold it against him . However , it nicely points out your hypocrisy & debunks your claims of Bush's lack of military service equated to a quagmire in Iraq , which by the way is your opinion !

How is it hypocrisy? At no point in the Original post was former President Clintion mentioned. His name was only brought into this thread when you tried to defend President Bush by blaming everything on Clinton.

Dave



Yesterday we've sinned, today we move towards God. Touch the sky....love and respect...Safe Star!
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (7 years 9 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2589 times:

Quoting OU812 (Reply 3):



Quoting OU812 (Reply 7):



Quoting OU812 (Reply 12):

Glad to see you're back, and in your usual jaded, uninformed form, Libturdslayer.  Yeah sure


User currently offlineOU812 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (7 years 9 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2585 times:

Quoting DavestanKSAN (Reply 13):
by blaming everything on Clinton.

No I didn't !
Simply pointing out that it is the Terrorists that are to blame not us ! But , there could have been things done that could [possibly] have stopped 911 from happening . It's easy to say such a thing after the fact of course !

United we stand , divided we fall !

Quoting OU812 (Reply 12):
IMHO , I feel if Clinton put more time & effort on fighting terrorism rather than pushing it aside as he did things may , may have been different . And if 911 didn't happen we wouldn't be in the situation in Iraq at all . I am not blaming Clinton nor Bush , but the Terrorists , their Leaders , who allow this extreme fundamentalism to flourish & the people who do not want us to win , which in turn emboldened the terrorists !!!


User currently offlineOU812 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (7 years 9 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2584 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 14):
Glad to see you're back, and in your usual jaded, uninformed form, Libturdslayer.



Libturdslayer ?

What are you talking about ?


User currently offlineDavestanKSAN From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 1678 posts, RR: 13
Reply 17, posted (7 years 9 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2577 times:

Quoting OU812 (Reply 15):

You're right, my mistake, sorry about that. I should have stated you deflected the blame on President Bush by bringing up things about FPotUS Clinton.

Dave

[Edited 2006-11-21 02:24:23]


Yesterday we've sinned, today we move towards God. Touch the sky....love and respect...Safe Star!
User currently offlineBushpilot From South Africa, joined Jul 2007, 0 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (7 years 9 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2563 times:

Quoting OU812 (Reply 12):
However , it nicely points out your hypocrisy & debunks your claims of Bush's lack of military service equated to a quagmire in Iraq , which by the way is your opinion !

Hypocracy how? I didnt mention Clinton until you did. Second thing you posted. First was the perceived reasons the Bush administration took action towards invasion. The second was that Bill Clinton was a draft dodger. The right pounded this dead horse for 8 years, and the next GOP candidate got snuck into a butter sweet job in the TXANG and didnt do that great at is. My point about military service was also about Powell. Read below:

Quoting Bushpilot (Thread starter):
The only member of the administration who had real service in the Vietnam conflict was Former Sec. State Colin Powell. His service was heroic and exemplary by all accounts. Instead of learning the lessons Powell was taught from the ill-fated decisions in that war, our fine President marginalized him, fired him.



Quoting OU812 (Reply 15):
But , there could have been things done that could [possibly] have stopped 911 from happening

Your right, and more could have been done to help the investigation during the aftermath. like not allowing Saudi nationals with ties to OBL out of the country without being questioned by the authorities. Or how about actually focusing attention on catching OBL instead of using him as an excuse to invade Iraq.


User currently offlineOU812 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (7 years 9 months 5 days ago) and read 2552 times:

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 18):
Your right, and more could have been done to help the investigation during the aftermath. like not allowing Saudi nationals with ties to OBL out of the country without being questioned by the authorities. Or how about actually focusing attention on catching OBL instead of using him as an excuse to invade Iraq.

Doh  headache 

Oh dear ,
The beginning of this thread was pushing it . Now .., now you have just crossed over the threshold to extremism [angry far left wing ] ! Micheal Moore-ish ! Time for football !

But before I go , let me give you a list of what the dems said about saddam's WMD's & I'll even throw in a video . Also , you'll notice below that reply 3 were direct quotes taken from the Dems.!

Quoting OU812 (Reply 3):
"Hussein ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies."

"Saddam Hussein engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."

"We had to stop Saddam from ever again jeopardizing the stability and security of his neighbors with weapons of mass destruction."

Video : See what they said ! eek 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfeBROshZ0M&eurl=

Read what they said !  bigthumbsup 

http://www.glennbeck.com/news/01302004.shtml

What Did The Democrats Say About Iraq's WMD


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
JANUARY 30, 2004 | Printable Version
"Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction ... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real..."
- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003 | Source

"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force -- if necessary -- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security."
- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002 | Source

"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line."
- President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998 | Source

"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program."
- President Bill Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998 | Source

"We must stop Saddam from ever again jeopardizing the stability and security of his neighbors with weapons of mass destruction."
- Madeline Albright, Feb 1, 1998 | Source

"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983."
- Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998 | Source

"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs."
Letter to President Clinton.
- (D) Senators Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, others, Oct. 9, 1998 | Source

"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."
- Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998 | Source

"Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies."
- Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999 | Source

"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandate of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and th! e means of delivering them."
- Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002 | Source

"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country."
- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002 | Source

"Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power."
- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002 | Source

"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002 | Source

"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons..."
- Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002 | Source

"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years ... We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002 | Source

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members ... It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."
- Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002 | Source

"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), Dec. 8, 2002 | Source


User currently offlineTexdravid From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1350 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (7 years 9 months 5 days ago) and read 2550 times:

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 8):
Ok.

Bill Clinton, born on the wrong side of the tracks, avoided the draft by getting straight As in college, graduating at the top of his class and getting a Rhodes Scholarship. Then spent his time at Oxford getting As so he could get admitted to the best Law School in the country. Where he also made straight As.

George Bush, born with a silver spoon in his mouth, avoided the draft by getting his rich Daddy to get him into the Guard. Then spent his days boozing and getting high.

Rush Limbaugh avoided the draft by getting a large oozing pimple on his butt. Then spent his days eating and picking his butt zit.

In all of these 3 stories, I see the American dream in the first, the American reality in the other, and the American nightmare in the last.

Only partially correct.
Clinton is an American tragedy. Even my household, which is firmly Republican, held Clinton in fair esteem because of his humble background, his openness to other cultures (he loved India), and because, simply, he wasn't Hillary. His downfall was tragic, because he did it to himself.

As for Bush, well, we know he is not up to the task and has been documented thoroughly here and elsewhere. Alas, history will not be kind to Bush II, but perhaps Bush I.

As for Limbaugh, his life has so many contradictions, falls from grace, and back, who knows where it will go next. At some point, any more personal foilbles will eventually cause his listeners to stop listening.



Tort reform now. Throw lawyers in jail later.
User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (7 years 9 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 2538 times:

Quoting Texdravid (Reply 20):
Clinton is an American tragedy.

Well, his Presidency became a tragic farce because of his inability to zip up.

But he still came from nowhere to become President of the US, the old fashioned way - through perseverance and hard work. Pity he had to squander it all in a pointless act of lust, followed by cowardice in the extreme.

That having been said, comparing Clinton's avoidance of the Vietnam war and Rush Limbaugh and Dick Cheney's is like comparing filet mignon with cat food.

As for Limbaugh, when was the man ever in a position of grace? He has always been a corpulent, lying, bigoted, hypocritical thug.

At least GWB finds those few moments of grace when he quits being GWB, the GOP politico and tries to be GWB, the man.


User currently offlineTexdravid From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1350 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (7 years 9 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2523 times:

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 21):
At least GWB finds those few moments of grace when he quits being GWB, the GOP politico and tries to be GWB, the man.

I don't quite think you can use the word grace and Bush simultaneously.

It's weird, but Bush and Clinton do have something in common.

They both will leave office with their party in worse shape than before with regards to Congress.

With regards to Limbaugh, agreed, but I do wish you liberals would offer such words to other people who deserve scorn. You know, those lying, mean, despicable people such as Michael Moore, Stuart Smalley and that ass on HBO, Bill Maher.

Crucify their repugnant views, then we can truly agree. If you choose to defend in any way those kind of people, then you hold yourself to open to charges of being a cheap partisan. No problem with being a partisan, but not a cheap one where one defends the indefensible.



Tort reform now. Throw lawyers in jail later.
User currently offlineBushpilot From South Africa, joined Jul 2007, 0 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (7 years 9 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2490 times:

Quoting OU812 (Reply 19):
The beginning of this thread was pushing it . Now .., now you have just crossed over the threshold to extremism [angry far left wing ] ! Micheal Moore-ish ! Time for football !

Are you suggesting that Saudi citizens were allowed special access out of the country in the days following 9-11, and were allowed to do so without question from the authorities didnt happen?
About the quotes, that is all fine and dandy, I was also one who believed he had WMDs, there was no question he had them before. Where are they now?
My point in this thread is not about WMDs it is about failure at nation building and the suggestion that if Bush wouldnt have gotten off easy by enlisting in the TXANG and would have actually served in the shit, then we wouldnt be in this situation in Iraq. Bush has created a failed policy in terms of having Iraqis buy into democracy, rebuilding the country, and spurring the iraqi economy.


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