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US Troops Out Of Iraq By Early 2008?  
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2672 times:

The main findings of the Iraq Study Group have been leaked to the ABC and BBC, and appear to recommend a pretty comprehensive reversal of everything Bush has been talking about up to now (including negotiations with Iran and Syria):-

(Excerpts)

"A report on US policy in Iraq is to urge negotiations with Iran and Syria over the future of their neighbour, according to leaked excerpts.

"US broadcaster ABC says the Iraq Study Group (ISG) will also recommend troops move from combat to support roles, with all combat troops gone by early 2008.

"The ISG had also been expected to recommend a gradual phased withdrawal of US troops over the next 18 months.

"According to the leaks, the report will back a reduction in the number of US troops in Iraq - perhaps halving it from the current level of 140,000 - as well as changing the nature of their engagement from a combat to a back-up role.

"The primary mission of US forces should evolve to one of supporting the Iraqi army," ABC News quotes the report as saying.

"The report suggests there should be an initial increase in the number of US troops dedicated to supporting Iraqi troops, ABC says, but does not specify whether this will mean an increase in overall US troop numbers before they start falling.

"The report ends with a plea for a broad political consensus, predicting that without it US foreign policy is doomed to failure."


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6212106.stm


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
21 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineKaiGywer From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 12202 posts, RR: 35
Reply 1, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2661 times:
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Would be great to see, but until people quit blowing themselves up over there, probably won't happen.


911, where is your emergency?
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 2, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2653 times:

I don't see that US forces staying there is going to stop the 'blowing up,' KaiGywer. So far, they just seem to have joined in.

Where I think the Group got it wrong, though, is the idea that US forces can stay there in a 'support role.' Like any occupying force, the US weakness is supply. While they stay there, they're going to have to keep trucking in supplies (even drinking water). Most of the IED attacks are on supply convoys - and while the Americans remain there, the convoys will have to continue. And, therefore, so will the attacks.

Better, IMO, to get out altogether and have done with it. Staying just means throwing away yet more lives to no purpose.



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineKaiGywer From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 12202 posts, RR: 35
Reply 3, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2649 times:
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FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 2):
Better, IMO, to get out altogether and have done with it. Staying just means throwing away yet more lives to no purpose.

I agree, but sadly won't happen.



911, where is your emergency?
User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13005 posts, RR: 12
Reply 4, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 2645 times:

I have little faith in this report, but that it does put out the basic fact that we have failed in our policy in Iraq. Other facts and timing will probably have more affect on the decisions of our policy in Iraq. There is a Presidential Election in 2008 and failure for the USA to out of Iraq by then will probably kill off any chance of a Republican winning the Presidency and lose more seats in the Senate and Congress. Many more dead American Soliders - now approaching the numbers of those murdered in the 9/11 attacks - will continue to turn the stomachs of Americans and against continuing in this war. Maybe a TRILLION $$$'s will be spent by the USA in Iraq in this war, aggrieving our deficits with no real benefit. It was a terrible investment to go to war in Iraq mainly over Oil, protecting Israel and revenge for 9/11 in the Islamic world against a well established enemy of the USA. Republicans deeply fear failure in Iraq, as they recall how our failures in Korea and Vietnam led to deep long term problems of American in the world. There is little else to do in that context to support our continued involvement there
Yes, I am afraid of the probably horrible things that will result from our withdrawal among them: mass murder in civil and religious wars of the Shia & Sunni against each other; the Kurds pushing for their independence triggering problems with Russia, Iran, and most importantly Turkey; and all of them fighting for majority control of the oil in Iraq; disruption of access to oil in Iraq, probably leading to rises in oil prices for all; Russia and China taking over the oil production and distribution, hurting access to the USA, EC and Japan; the sublimation of women and minorities (including Christians) in the former Iraq. But let's face it - for generations the USA has turned it's back on much of the world, forcing it to our needs, greed and the Cold War and now the War on Terror. That will never change and why should it now.


User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8021 posts, RR: 26
Reply 5, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 2643 times:

Don't forget the debilitating trifecta of arrogance at work here:

arrogance of intent, arrogance of purpose, and arrogance of perspective. unfortunately this entire process is symptomatic of Washington's unwillingness to neither introspect or make serious efforts toward getting the pulse of the world.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 2632 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 2):
I don't see that US forces staying there is going to stop the 'blowing up,' KaiGywer

 checkmark  I must agreee with NAV20. We could have half a million troops on the ground there or zero troops on the ground there. It is now up to the Iraqi people and the Iraqi gov't to put an end to the REGLIOUS violence overwhelming the country.

The Coalition Forces handed them a free state and an opportunity . . . it is now up to them to make of that opportunity what they will. If they choose Religious genocide, that's their call.


User currently offlineAGM100 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 5407 posts, RR: 17
Reply 7, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2614 times:

Get our people out of thier ! We have been defeated , by our own counter culture and the visions of horror unleashed on the Iraqi people by these whack jobs. Our will has been broken and undermined by our enemies , both foreign and domestic. The Iraqi people do not have the will to fight for themselves at this point, so why should we. The best military in world , and the best highly trained, brave and selfless soldiers that we have over their can not help them. ANC lays it out right,, they did their job , we gave the Iraqi's a chance on a silver platter.

I still am in absolute AWE of the performance of our forces their.. these guys are just the best and that is it. Absolutely amazing . Not heroes ... Just regular guys and gals doing their jobs and taking care of there buddies ... calling them heroes is insulting IMO .



You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
User currently offlineConfuscius From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 3826 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2612 times:

"Get our people out of thier ! We have been defeated , by our own counter culture and the visions of horror unleashed on the Iraqi people by these whack jobs."

I presume the liberal media is included? Big grin



Ain't I a stinker?
User currently offlineUH60FtRucker From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2609 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 2):
I don't see that US forces staying there is going to stop the 'blowing up,' KaiGywer.



Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 6):
I must agreee with NAV20.

But we ARE stopping attacks. If you look at the areas in which we control with overwhelming force... the peace is kept.

But if you look at the areas where we are 'force reduced' or 'force devoid' - the violence runs rampant.

WE NEED MORE TROOPS! AHHHH!  Angry

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 7):
We have been defeated ,

Well... I dunno about you guys back home... but "we" (us in Iraq) HAVE NOT BEEN DEFEATED. Thank you.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 7):
Our will has been broken

Again... I dunno about back home... but our will is NOT broken.

I told my commander the other day, that I'll gladly switch over to 5th Battalion when we deploy home... 5th Batt is deploying in Nov '07. And I wasn't the only one to offer to come back to Iraq.

I guess the people back home aren't forged of the same mettle.  Yeah sure

-UH60


User currently offlineConfuscius From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 3826 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2600 times:

"I guess the people back home aren't forged of the same mettle."

We're no Dick "last throes of insurgency" Cheney, nor Donald "stay the course...except final 2 days before mid-term election" Rumsfeld.

[Edited 2006-12-06 20:19:45]


Ain't I a stinker?
User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2599 times:

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 9):
WE NEED MORE TROOPS! AHHHH!

OK, I understand . . .

That said: For how long, until when? I don't dispute more troops would quiet things down, what I dispute is that - as I said above - doesn't matter how many troops we have there won't stop the sectarian RELIGIOUS violence.

And how long do we police Iraq? I'm NOT an advocate of pulling the troops out . . . if you got that impression, it is not correct.

I am an advocate of making the Iraqi's police their own. It's about time they put up or shut up.

As I said - we handed them the country - free to do with as they please - on a silver platter. It is now up to the Iraqi's to make it or not . . . with our assistance in training the military and police of course . . . but we cannot, and should not remain indefinitely.

And when we leave - in 6 months or 6 years - I FULLY expect the RELIGIOUS freak show to start all over . . . once again I submit: eliminate RELIGION from the equation, and you eliminate 99% of the country's problems in an instant.


User currently offlineUH60FtRucker From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2591 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 11):
For how long, until when?

I can't say an exact number... but I can tell you that "Gone by '08" is definitely the wrong move.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 11):
I'm NOT an advocate of pulling the troops out . . . if you got that impression, it is not correct.

No, I know you're not.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 11):

I am an advocate of making the Iraqi's police their own. It's about time they put up or shut up.

I agree. But if you look at our history with the ISF, we've been most successful when we - US forces - go into an area with strong force, secure the AO, and then hand it off to the ISF.

But we can't do that for the entire country, because we don't have the numbers we need. If we had the forces numbers required to do this successfully, we could secure the area and successfully pass control to the ISF.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 11):
but we cannot, and should not remain indefinitely

I totally agree.

But you were in the Army, so you know what I mean when I say... I'm not accustomed to failing.

I was looking on Drudge today, and I read that Vice President Gore said, "Iraq is the worst mistake in America's history." You know... I don't want to be associated with that. I don't be 60yrs old and look back and KNOW we could have won, but that we were denied the opportunity and allowed to fail. ...I don't want to be part of "the worst mistake in history." How shameful.

I've lost some really good friends... and I'm not out of here yet, so I could easily come home in a body bag as well... and I don't want it to be for NOTHING.

I have to believe that the tears, sweat and blood have all been shed for a purpose. And that is why I WILL find a way to get redeployed. And if 5th Batt won't take me... I'll transfer to a new division who will. And I know I am not alone.

-UH60

[Edited 2006-12-06 20:41:14]

User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2577 times:

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 12):
I was looking on Drudge today, and I read that Vice President Gore said, "Iraq is the worst mistake in America's history."

Consider the source . . . waste of air time, he is. Like Kerry only with less personality.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 12):
the ISF

How far do you trust them? I'm very skeptical . . . I'm not there to tell any tales, but my impression is - from news accounts on CNN and BBC - they are clanish and sectarian as well. That will defeat them quicker than being stupid and/or untrained.

How effective are they once control is passed to them? When will THEY be able to secure the area and maintain control? It's about time they deal with it, don't you think?

Perhaps - just perhaps - telling them, okay boyz, we're outta here XYZ will motivate them to get the job done. Nothing thus far appears to be making any headway in that arena.


User currently offlineAGM100 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 5407 posts, RR: 17
Reply 14, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2566 times:

UH60... The election IMO was essentially a surrender of will by the American people. Just my opinion ... and it may very well have not been that. But it is being played that way and your efforts are being marginalized and jaded by comments by our enemies .. Al Gore and the idea gang.

My personal problem is that I dont want my blood dying for a cause that even our own leaders are denegrating. I did not mean any disrespect to you and you guys their , I hope you know that.

What do we do over here ... ? The headlines are saying we have lost !. Many of us know that is not true , but it appears the majority are in agreement... Sad and just disgusting.



You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8021 posts, RR: 26
Reply 15, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2554 times:

I guess the people back home aren't forged of the same mettle

UH, I understand where this sentiment is coming from - I just hope you're directing it at the folks who really need to hear it. that of course would be just about all of the talking heads in Washington who don't have the day to day and are managing this fight mostly on impulse. Washington has failed all of you thus far.

Your determination is admirable and exemplary of the caliber of person that is filling the ranks of our armed forces, but you really resonated with something when you said you HAVE TO believe all of this is for some purpose. does everyone still have a clear idea as to what that might actually be? others I've spoken to aren't so sure anymore. again, you can thank the fools in our capital city for that.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineItsjustme From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 2768 posts, RR: 10
Reply 16, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2539 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 6):
If they choose Religious genocide, that's their call.

Umm, don't you mean Civil War?  duck 


User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2534 times:

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 16):
Umm, don't you mean Civil War?  duck 

Nope  no . . . it's a RELIGIOUS WAR amongst religious zealots. Unfortunately, the innocents are getting whacked with the nutjobs - by the nutjobs . . .


User currently offlineDavestanKSAN From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 1678 posts, RR: 14
Reply 18, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 2526 times:

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 12):
But you were in the Army, so you know what I mean when I say... I'm not accustomed to failing.

I was looking on Drudge today, and I read that Vice President Gore said, "Iraq is the worst mistake in America's history." You know... I don't want to be associated with that. I don't be 60yrs old and look back and KNOW we could have won, but that we were denied the opportunity and allowed to fail. ...I don't want to be part of "the worst mistake in history." How shameful.

I've lost some really good friends... and I'm not out of here yet, so I could easily come home in a body bag as well... and I don't want it to be for NOTHING.

I have to believe that the tears, sweat and blood have all been shed for a purpose. And that is why I WILL find a way to get redeployed. And if 5th Batt won't take me... I'll transfer to a new division who will. And I know I am not alone.

That really does speak volumes about your character UH, and it's really impressive  thumbsup 

You guys over there have not failed. Who has failed is the idiot politicians sitting in their Air Conditioned offices back in Washington. We have not lost in Iraq. It's time for the Iraqi government to step up to the plate. You guys have done everything in your power to see a Democratic Iraq succeed. I wish I could say the same for politicians.

How do you feel about training Iraqi soldiers? I've heard a report (I don't know if it's true, so I thought I'd ask you) that some Soldiers don't take to this idea too kindly because that's not what they are over there to do.

I'm not sure pulling troops out of Iraq by 2008 is the right choice, but that date has been put into place to put pressure on the Iraqi government to take some action. They have to realize we won't be there forever.

The thing that makes me most upset about the Iraq war is that you guys are doing everything in your power for a Iraq Democracy while this Administration, as well as the Iraqi government are not. I'm hoping Mr. Gates will bring some new ideas and hopefully he will listen to the Generals on the ground.

Thanks for having such a great attitude UH.

Dave



Yesterday we've sinned, today we move towards God. Touch the sky....love and respect...Safe Star!
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 19, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 2505 times:

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 12):
I don't want to be part of "the worst mistake in history." How shameful.

I don't see anything for you or any other soldier to be ashamed of, UH60FtRucker. The Coalition forces succeeded in doing exactly what they were asked to do; defeat the Iraqi Army and occupy the country.

The mistakes were political, and came later. Smashing all the infrastructure, and not bothering even to try to rebuild it. Firing the army, the police, and the whole civil service, including the doctors and the teachers; thus bringing the whole economy of the country to a halt. Then spending years trying to put crooks like Chalabi in charge, and eventually doing shady deals with the mullahs (especially the Shi'ite ones) so that the elections only resulted in a puppet government, mostly ex-pats, who don't dare set foot outside the Green Zone and are not respected by ANY Iraqis........

I could go on for pages about all the stuffups - but they were all political ones, not military ones.

You guys have done all you can - but it's out of your hands. Personally, I'm just sick of reading press reports like this, and knowing only two things for certain:-

1. There'll be another similar one tomorrow.

2. For every ordinary Coalition guy that got it, there'll have been at least ten equally-ordinary Iraqis who got it too. Not even counting the five or so people who get wounded for every one killed.

"BAGHDAD, Iraq - Ten U.S. troops were killed in Iraq on Wednesday, a major blow on the same day a high-level panel in Washington recommended gradually shifting U.S. forces from a combat to a training role.

"The U.S. military said in a statement that 10 Americans had died in four separate incidents but gave no further details, pending notification of relatives. In addition to the 10 casualties on Tuesday, the U.S. command said two U.S. soldiers were killed Sunday in Baghdad and a Navy sailor was killed in Anbar province on Monday."


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16075920/



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineCairo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 2494 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 6):
it is now up to them to make of that opportunity what they will. If they choose Religious genocide, that's their call....free to do with as they please...I FULLY expect the RELIGIOUS freak show to start all over

This will take care of the one post you make per year that I agree with, since your words here mean Iraq belongs to the Iraqis and it is up to them how it should be run. This also means they have the freedom to make the choice that it not be run at all or that it be run as a chaotic religious battlefield for decades to come.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 11):
I'm NOT an advocate of pulling the troops out

But, saying the Iraqis are free to do with Iraq as they please alos means recognizing that Iraqis want the Americans to leave asap.* Why should your desire to keep US troops in Iraq overrule the hopes of the Iraqi people?

Cairo
*
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/09/27/iraq.poll/
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5217874/site/newsweek/

To say that we are closer to victory today is to believe, in the face of the evidence, the optimists who have been wrong in the past. To suggest we are on the edge of defeat is to yield to unreasonable pessimism. To say that we are mired in stalemate seems the only realistic, yet unsatisfactory, conclusion. ..

... But it is increasingly clear to this reporter that the only rational way out then will be to negotiate, not as victors, but as an honorable people who lived up to their pledge to defend democracy, and did the best they could.


http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC/cronkiteviet.html


User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 21, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 2481 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 19):
The mistakes were political, and came later. Smashing all the infrastructure, and not bothering even to try to rebuild it. Firing the army, the police, and the whole civil service, including the doctors and the teachers; thus bringing the whole economy of the country to a halt. Then spending years trying to put crooks like Chalabi in charge, and eventually doing shady deals with the mullahs (especially the Shi'ite ones) so that the elections only resulted in a puppet government, mostly ex-pats, who don't dare set foot outside the Green Zone and are not respected by ANY Iraqis........

That seems a reasonable precis! Depressing but reasonable.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 19):
I could go on for pages about all the stuffups - but they were all political ones, not military ones.

However, the outcome is in effect a military one. It is going to be that OBL, basically without lifting a finger, will have rebuffed US military force, and to that extent defeated it.

This is essentially what Ricks is saying in Fiasco.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/25/bo...09b&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

"By virtue of the author’s wealth of sources within the American military and the book’s comprehensive timeline (beginning with the administration’s inflammatory statements about Saddam Hussein in the wake of 9/11, through the invasion and occupation, to the escalating religious and ethnic strife that afflicts the country today), “Fiasco” is absolutely essential reading for anyone interested in understanding how the United States came to go to war in Iraq, how a bungled occupation fed a ballooning insurgency and how these events will affect the future of the American military."

And
“President George W. Bush’s decision to invade Iraq in 2003 ultimately may come to be seen as one of the most profligate actions in the history of American foreign policy,” Mr. Ricks writes. “The consequences of his choice won’t be clear for decades, but it already is abundantly apparent in mid-2006 that the U.S. government went to war in Iraq with scant solid international support and on the basis of incorrect information — about weapons of mass destruction and a supposed nexus between Saddam Hussein and Al Qaeda’s terrorism — and then occupied the country negligently. Thousands of U.S. troops and an untold number of Iraqis have died. Hundreds of billions of dollars have been spent, many of them squandered. Democracy may yet come to Iraq and the region, but so too may civil war or a regional conflagration, which in turn could lead to spiraling oil prices and a global economic shock.”

Quoting Cairo (Reply 20):
To say that we are closer to victory today is to believe, in the face of the evidence, the optimists who have been wrong in the past. To suggest we are on the edge of defeat is to yield to unreasonable pessimism. To say that we are mired in stalemate seems the only realistic, yet unsatisfactory, conclusion. ..

Basically, the US has got itself into a position where it cannot stay and it is disastrous to leave. If that is not Cairo's stalemate, I don't know what is.

Much is made of a US retreat being hailed as a defeat, but it seems that the choice is between that and one in detail if the US stays.

So far there is scant evidence that either Iraqi police or military trained by the US, UK or Aus can function as intended. It may well be that they they function as some of the Iraqis intend, hence the insurgency.

The US military at present, with all due respect to UH60R, seems to be carrying out a prolonged exercise in tactical victories in a setting of strategic defeat. It would be nice if it were going to change, but what is different in a positive way now compared with 2003?


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