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The Horrors Of Extraordinary Rendition  
User currently offline9V From China, joined Aug 2008, 0 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2933 times:

Canadian citizen Maher Arar is barred from entering the United States.

Quote:
My nightmare began on September 26, 2002. I was transiting through New York airport, JFK Airport, when they asked me to wait in a waiting area...

Read the rest of his story HERE. It's fascinating.  Smile

80 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineShamrock350 From Ireland, joined Mar 2005, 6346 posts, RR: 14
Reply 1, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2897 times:

That was one of the most distressing things I have ever had to read. It was shocking and I had no idea that kind of thing went on in the the world let alone JFK!
The pain lasted 6 months after being hit in the wrist by a cable! Imagine having a burning around your wrist for 6 long months.


User currently offlineWrenchBender From Canada, joined Feb 2004, 1779 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2882 times:

The head of the RCMP just resigned over this case....

http://start.shaw.ca/start/enCA/News...alNewsArticle.htm?src=n120643A.xml

WrenchBender



Silly Pilot, Tricks are for kids.......
User currently offlineSlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 68
Reply 3, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2876 times:

Quoting Shamrock350 (Reply 1):
The pain lasted 6 months after being hit in the wrist by a cable!

And everyone believes that statement?

Have you ever had a single blow hurt you for six months?

I've broken bones and it didn't hurt for six months.
I have friends and relatives who have had fingers and other appendages smashed or cut off and it didn't hurt for six whole months.

I have no doubt as to the detention and movements he describes but that statement is just not believable.



Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
User currently offlineJohnboy79 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 42 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2856 times:

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 3):
I've broken bones and it didn't hurt for six months.
I have friends and relatives who have had fingers and other appendages smashed or cut off and it didn't hurt for six whole months.

You, your friends, and family had access to something he didn't have. A DOCTOR!!! It's totally believable for UNTREATED injuries to still be painful after months without treatment.

-JB79



Rock Chalk Jayhawk
User currently offlineGQfluffy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2850 times:

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 3):
Have you ever had a single blow hurt you for six months?

Hockey puck to the knee after practice almost 6 years ago. Hurts to this day...


User currently offlineSlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 68
Reply 6, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 2837 times:

Quoting Johnboy79 (Reply 4):
A DOCTOR!!!

You assume that because there are doctors, people run to them every time they fall down.

The short list:
Broken bone in foot - no doctor.
Knife blade stuck in bone in finger and had to be pried out - no doctor.
Machete cut to web of hand - no doctor.
Dog (springer spaniel) bite all the way through thumb - no doctor.
Broken nose -no doctor.
Smashed flat nose - no doctor. No, wait, four hours later it was still bleeding so I went to the doctor and got a vitamin K shot.
Abcess from leech - no doctor.
Splinter all the way through one finger and in the next finger until it jammed against the bone - no doctor, and it did not hurt six months later.

Redwood bark in my eye - went to the doctor.
Skydrol in my eye - went to the doctor.
Skin cancer - went to a doctor.

So I might have access to a doctor but doctors, medicine, treatement and pain killing drugs are not a factor.

I still find the guy's account of it non-credible.
I know this does happen.
I'm sure it happened to him.

His words just don't ring true. They sound like they are calculated to make the women in the audience weepy.



Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
User currently offlineN229NW From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 1962 posts, RR: 32
Reply 7, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2825 times:

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 6):
You assume that because there are doctors, people run to them every time they fall down.

The short list:
Broken bone in foot - no doctor.
Knife blade stuck in bone in finger and had to be pried out - no doctor.
Machete cut to web of hand - no doctor.
Dog (springer spaniel) bite all the way through thumb - no doctor.
Broken nose -no doctor.
Smashed flat nose - no doctor. No, wait, four hours later it was still bleeding so I went to the doctor and got a vitamin K shot.
Abcess from leech - no doctor.
Splinter all the way through one finger and in the next finger until it jammed against the bone - no doctor, and it did not hurt six months later.

Yes yes, we get it, Slamclick. You are a REAL MAN unlike this pussy who let the torture get him anxious and depressed. You would have kicked some ass in a Syrian jail, showed them who was boss. Afterward you would have done some push-ups on your bloody palms and partied like it was 1999. You rock.

[Edited 2006-12-07 05:55:11]


It's people like you what cause unrest!
User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2806 times:

Quoting 9V (Thread starter):
Canadian citizen Maher Arar is barred from entering the United States.

When are we going to see similar biographies of people who were killed on 9/11? I'd like to see several thousand, actually -- one for each innocent person killed.


User currently offlineSKYSERVICE_330 From Canada, joined Sep 2000, 1419 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2802 times:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 8):
When are we going to see similar biographies of people who were killed on 9/11? I'd like to see several thousand, actually -- one for each innocent person killed.

How does this relate to Mr. Arar, a Canadian citizen, being deported by US authorities to Syria?


User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 2777 times:

Quoting SKYSERVICE_330 (Reply 9):
How does this relate to Mr. Arar, a Canadian citizen, being deported by US authorities to Syria?

I think that appropriate context should be shown. If the victim gets to tell his story in this case, making U.S. policy look bad, so should be told the victims of 9/11 that helped motivate parts of this policy.


User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 11, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 2767 times:

Those who think that the policy of extraordinary rendition is fine, why not go back to the middle ages, set up a Court of Star Chamber and generally act like they did in the medieval times that so enamour your pet hate OBL? Oh, you already have a Court of Star Chamber, well go and ask Osama for some more tips.

User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 2757 times:

Quoting Baroque (Reply 11):
Those who think that the policy of extraordinary rendition is fine, why not go back to the middle ages, set up a Court of Star Chamber and generally act like they did in the medieval times that so enamour your pet hate OBL?

The difference is that the U.S. releases those who it believes are unfairly held. In the case of our enemies, too many of their releases, of their prisoners, are solely to the afterlife.

Besides, when was the last time that the Red Cross or Red Crescent visited OBL's POW camps?

... Bueller? ... Bueller? ... Bueller? ... Anyone?

Please see:

http://www.redcross.org/news/in/intllaw/guantanamo1.html

[Edited 2006-12-07 14:31:16]

User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 13, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2747 times:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 12):
Besides, when was the last time that the Red Cross or Red Crescent visited OBL's POW camps?

I guess you were not following the difficulties that the Red Cross had in visiting on terms acceptable to them. I am not sure that this has happened yet. Is the US government going to publish the Red Cross reports? Why not if the camps are so humane?

As for the rendition camps, the US will not even admit they exist let alone permit inspections.

Guantanamo is bad enough, but this thread is about a process that is even worse.

And just for the record, that website is American Red Cross and the page does not include a single piece of information about whether Guantanamo meets Geneva Convention standards or even normal humanity standards, and there have been many reports that it does not, including, by the way, from the FBI.


User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2739 times:

Quoting Baroque (Reply 13):
Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 12):
Besides, when was the last time that the Red Cross or Red Crescent visited OBL's POW camps?

[Baroque writes:]

I guess you were not following the difficulties that the Red Cross had in visiting on terms acceptable to them. I am not sure that this has happened yet. Is the US government going to publish the Red Cross reports? Why not if the camps are so humane?

But please read the following, from the above-provided Web link:

(Excerpt)

Quote:
It seems a horror to many Americans that anyone—especially the Red Cross—would be interested in the welfare of the Afghan war detainees being held by the U.S. military in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. However, it is our very own government that requested the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) to visit with the detainees.

Why?

Along with 188 other nations across the globe, the United States is committed to meeting the standards of humanitarian treatment described in the Geneva Conventions— international treaties that provide protection and assistance to victims of armed conflict. The Geneva Conventions require that all captured combatants or prisoners of war (POWs) be visited by the ICRC to help assure the world that their treatment is humane.

Meeting with POWs and detainees to discuss their treatment is one of the ICRC’s unique functions. As an independent organization promoting respect for international humanitarian law, the ICRC also registers these people so their families and their government know where they are, and to give them the opportunity to write personal messages to relatives. These activities are legally mandated by the Geneva Conventions for the protection of captured combatants from all nations, including the United States, "who have fallen into the power of the enemy."

Ensuring the protection of captured U.S. combatants is another reason why the United States invited the ICRC to visit the detainees. In times of war, the United States wants to know that the ICRC will be visiting captured Americans. For example, the ICRC visited three American service men held in a Serbian prison during the Kosovo conflict and arranged for them to send messages to their families back home. During the Gulf War, the ICRC met with 55 U.S. POWs as well as POWs from the UK, France, Germany and Italy.

This is from the Red Cross itself. Would the Red Cross' own Webpage take this tone if it had not been satisfied with America's motives in connection with Guantanamo Bay?


User currently offlineSlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 68
Reply 15, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 2723 times:

Quoting N229NW (Reply 7):
yes, we get it, Slamclick.

No you don't. No more than my dog "gets" television.

The guy said my injuries didn't "hurt for six months" because I had a doctor.
I replied that I did not go to a doctor even with fairly serious injuries.
It is that simple.
The rest of your paragraph is just whiny crap so I won't comment on it unless you'd like me to.

I don't believe the assertion that one blow hurt for six months. It does not ring true. If it was written in a work of fiction the editor would "blue-pencil" it.

No matter what else happened to that guy he is a liar about that one thing.
He was trying to sway people with a lie, his personal version of "WMD" and he collected you and a few others.

Why is no one talking about his assertion that this happened in Syria? You know, "peaceful" "tolerant" Muslim Syria?



Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 16, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 2723 times:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 14):
This is from the Red Cross itself. Would the Red Cross' own Webpage take this tone if it had not been satisfied with America's motives in connection with Guantanamo Bay?

In a word "YES". If it wants to get back in. You really have not been following this saga. Aside from the references that follow, try also FBI, Major Micheil Mori, and another lawyer whose name escapes me but this will keep you reading for a couple of hours.

"Red Cross Meets With 14 Moved to Guantanamo Bay By Josh White Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, October 13, 2006; Page A23

An International Committee of the Red Cross delegation that visited the U.S. detention facility at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, met with the 14 detainees who had been held for years in secret CIA custody, the first time the alleged high-value terrorism suspects had contact with the outside world since their initial confinement."

Just 4 to 5 years late. Now from International Red Cross as opposed to American Red Cross.

http://www.icrc.org/Web/Eng/siteeng0...tention-update-121205?OpenDocument
Legal issues

"The detention of persons captured or arrested within the context of the "global war on terror" must take place within a clear and appropriate legal framework and the relevant procedural safeguards. Any person deprived of liberty cannot be detained and interrogated outside of an appropriate legal framework.

People held in connection with armed conflicts such as in Afghanistan fall under the regime of international humanitarian law (IHL) and should be treated accordingly. (See the relevance of IHL in the context of terrorism.)

Those persons detained outside of a situation of armed conflict have rights enshrined in a number of other bodies of law, such as international human rights law and relevant provisions of domestic law. The ICRC has adopted a case-by-case approach to qualifying situations arising from the "global war on terror" as an armed conflict or not and believes that the status of detainees should be determined based on the relevant rules. There are currently two broad strands of legal thinking: according to one, detainees in the "global war on terror" are all criminal suspects and should be treated as such. According to the other, they are all prisoners of war and should be treated as such. The ICRC does not share either of these views. It is clear that States may also detain persons for imperative reasons of security.

While the ICRC welcomes any development that leads to a clarification of the future of the detainees at Guantanamo, it does not believe that there is presently a legal regime that appropriately addresses either the detainees' status or the future of their detention.

Due to changed factual and legal circumstances since the launching of the "global war on terror", persons currently in US hands who are not released or tried must be put in another legal framework: i.e. provided an independent and impartial review of whether their continued detention for security reasons is justified.
In an interview (19 October 2006) for the ICRC web site, the organization's President, Jakob Kellenberger, explains the ICRC's position on developments in US policy and legislation towards those detained in the fight against terrorism.
In an interview (19 October 2006) for the ICRC web site, the organization's President, Jakob Kellenberger, explains the ICRC's position on developments in US policy and legislation towards those detained in the fight against terrorism.

People suspected of having committed war crimes or any other criminal offence can and should be prosecuted. But these individuals must be afforded essential judicial guarantees such as the presumption of innocence, the right to be tried by an impartial and independent tribunal, the right to qualified legal counsel and the exclusion of any evidence obtained as a result of torture or other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment.

The ICRC believes that uncertainty about the prisoners' fate has added to the mental and emotional strain experienced by many detainees and their families. "

If you read through the formality, they are annoyed, and this is Guantanamo, they cannot see the rendition prisoners - which is what this thread was about until you tried to hijack it.

So rendition access.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4512192.stm

"US bars access to terror suspects
A demonstration at the International Red Cross office in Gaza City
Red Cross workers visit detainees in 80 countries
The US has admitted for the first time that it has not given the Red Cross access to all detainees in its custody.

The state department's top legal adviser, John Bellinger, made the admission but gave no details about where such prisoners were held.

Correspondents say the revelation is likely to increase suspicion that the CIA has been operating secret prisons outside international oversight. "

http://www.commongroundcommonsense.o.../lofiversion/index.php/t44735.html
"December 10, 2005 U.S. Rebuffs Red Cross Request for Access to Detainees Held in Secret

By STEVEN R. WEISMAN
WASHINGTON, Dec. 9 - The United States said Friday that it would continue to deny the International Committee of the Red Cross access to "a very small, limited number" of prisoners who are held in secret around the world, saying they are terrorists being kept incommunicado for reasons of national security and are not guaranteed any rights under the Geneva Conventions.

Adam Ereli, the State Department's deputy spokesman, said the United States would not alter its position after the president of the International Red Cross said in Geneva that his organization was holding discussions to gain access to all detainees, including those held in secret locations.

Mr. Ereli said that the Geneva Conventions requiring humane treatment of prisoners of war did not apply to certain terrorism suspects seized as "unlawful enemy combatants," but that, in any case, the United States treats most of them as prisoners of war."

http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engamr510022005
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

"Guantánamo – an icon of lawlessness

Read the page

Or try Wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_site


User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 62
Reply 17, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 2723 times:

To be fair SlamClick - i agree with your viewpoint here mate.

I am extremely skeptical of this.



What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlineSlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 68
Reply 18, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 2715 times:

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 17):
I am extremely skeptical of this.

Could it be that some in this world are attempting to use the comparative handful of persons who have suffered the fate of "extraordinary rendition" as a black hole to suck up all the world's concern, indignation and care for human rights and store it all in some safe place AWAY FROM DARFUR?



Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 19, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 2706 times:

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 18):
Could it be that some in this world are attempting to use the comparative handful of persons who have suffered the fate of "extraordinary rendition" as a black hole to suck up all the world's concern, indignation and care for human rights and store it all in some safe place AWAY FROM DARFUR?

????????????????????????????????????????? Que?


User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 62
Reply 20, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 2702 times:

Reminds me of a line from the Simpsons.

"No need to say any more, your tears say more than real evidence ever can"

I'd like to know why one of the big US media sources, filmakers, news producers, or newspapers/magazines have not picked this fellow up and done a huge expose on this - theres no doubt there is a Pulitzer in there for someone. America is not an evil nation and its people have a thirst for the truth - this would be a national issue on a scale not seen since Dreyfuss' "J'Accuse!" in France last century.

I think if this could be proven then some bright spark news mogul would go stratospheric. I want to see proof.

At the end of the day, if he was innocent and had no links to terrorism then he should have been able to prove it very quickly. It does not take 10 months to prove it if you are innocent. Im not saying he was guilty as i do not know the circumstances but respectfully, there is a great deal more to this that we are not being told.

The war on terrorism is the PR and TV war - remember that when reading sources like this.



What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7961 posts, RR: 12
Reply 21, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 2694 times:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 10):
I think that appropriate context should be shown.

And what context exactly would justify what this man had witnessed?

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 20):
It does not take 10 months to prove it if you are innocent.

How naive. It can take a lot longer to prove you are innocent if you are being held custody in a country like Syria. You will probably not be able to prove you are innocent anyway, because, after torture and other forms of illtreatment, you'll be happy to sign anything they give you, even your own death sentence, if only they stop torturing you.
And authorities like such in Syria never err. Had this man's fate not triggered international efforts, he would still be in Syria or some other shitty place.

But let's assume for a moment he was not innocent. Would that justify torture in your book?

I find your comments not only illogical but cynical and disturbing. The fact alone that you felt the need to quote - of all things - the Simpsons, a slapstick comedy, makes your objection an exudate difficult to bear.



I support the right to arm bears
User currently offline9V From China, joined Aug 2008, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 2691 times:

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 21):
you'll be happy to sign anything they give you, even your own death sentence, if only they stop torturing you.

That is very true.


User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 2687 times:

Quoting Baroque (Reply 16):
In an interview (19 October 2006) for the ICRC web site, the organization's President, Jakob Kellenberger, explains the ICRC's position on developments in US policy and legislation towards those detained in the fight against terrorism.
In an interview (19 October 2006) for the ICRC web site, the organization's President, Jakob Kellenberger, explains the ICRC's position on developments in US policy and legislation towards those detained in the fight against terrorism.

So it would appear that there is a conflict between the position of the International Red Cross and the implication of the information I found on the Red Cross's American site.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 21):
And what context exactly would justify what this man had witnessed?

War.

"Justify", however, is a strong word. "Excuse" is perhaps better.

In war, mistakes happen. Often, people have to deal with it.

[Edited 2006-12-07 17:56:24]

User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 62
Reply 24, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 2676 times:

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 21):
But let's assume for a moment he was not innocent. Would that justify torture in your book?

Of course not.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 21):
How naive. It can take a lot longer to prove you are innocent if you are being held custody in a country like Syria.

I presume you'll be releasing your memoirs of your time spent being tortured and trying to prove your innocence in Syrian prison, then?

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 21):
The fact alone that you felt the need to quote - of all things - the Simpsons, a slapstick comedy, makes your objection an exudate difficult to bear.

Hardly relevant considering the point was the quote not the person who said it.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 21):
I find your comments not only illogical but cynical and disturbing.

Mate, theres not a damn thing wrong with cynicism. Theres a fine line i often cross between having an open mind and not automatically believing everything i see/hear, and outright cynicism. I freely admit i am very cynical. I'm cynical of everyone and everything though im no lover of Bush or Blair, but i'm equally cynical of everything spouted from the other side as well.

Whats illogical about what I said?

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 21):
you'll be happy to sign anything they give you, even your own death sentence, if only they stop torturing you.

Almost certainly you are correct. He still satisfied them of his innocence so that they let him go. How much difference did the confession make? None.



What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
25 SlamClick : Let me make it real plain. The liberals of the western world are all wrapped around the axle over a few hundred Muslims who might have been flown aro
26 SlamClick : That is the problem - you cannot prove a negative. He can't possibly "prove" he has no links to terrorism. Neither can I. That is why civilized natio
27 Post contains links SKYSERVICE_330 : For those interested in Mr. Arar's ordeal, I would suggest reading the official inquiry undertaken by the Canadian government, overseen by the Honoura
28 9V : Finally, the Commissioner found that both before and after Mr. Arar’s return to Canada, Canadian officials leaked confidential and sometimes inaccur
29 AerospaceFan : It seems to me that he should also be most proud of his country and its many beautiful attributes. If not for Canadian tolerance and generosity, many
30 NoUFO : Is this an attempt to be funny or to hide from telling us how you would prove your innocence? Other than that your cynicism is contemptuous .... Whil
31 DrDeke : Right, so since Muslims are murdering and torturing people, we shouldn't worry about it when we torture people? Sounds like the old "BUT HE DID IT TO
32 AerospaceFan : We're not torturing anyone.
33 Post contains images DrDeke : Oh, right, I'm sorry; we just send suspects to other people who will do the torturing for us. I'm sure glad we do this; it really puts us back on the
34 AerospaceFan : How about if we criticize those who actually do the torturing?
35 Post contains images 9V : AerospaceFan, Given your opinion on this, let's turn the tables. Imagine it's you that endured this horrific experience and not Maher Arar. Are you s
36 DrDeke : Fine, but that doesn't excuse us from causing the torture to occur. That just isn't how it works. If person A hires person B to kill person C, we don
37 Post contains images Scbriml : There's only one thing making US policy look bad. Of course not. You've outsourced it to those for whom its a core competency. Probably cheaper and m
38 AerospaceFan : Are you telling me that things that are against "common sense and morality" haven't occurred during times of war? That's not the issue. Of course I w
39 9V : Well if it was me, I damn sure would!!
40 AerospaceFan : I guess we're just different that way.
41 SlamClick : The UK, and liberals here in the US want to start outsourcing it as Canada, France and Germany did from the start. Spain started outsourcing it later
42 AerospaceFan : I've been sick and tired of all the carping from the left about how the U.S. is the "bad guy" in relation to the war against terror, when indeed it is
43 9V : Believe me, I am not a Liberal! I loathe terrorists as much as the next guy. But what happened to Maher Arar was a total disgrace and it makes me wan
44 AerospaceFan : Believe me -- unless your government is going to provide inaccurate information about you that paints you as a terrorist threat, you have virtually z
45 Schoenorama : Afghanistan was invaded by Coalition troops because the Taliban gave al-Qaeda, the ones who attacked the U.S. on 9/11, a safe-haven. So far so good.
46 AerospaceFan : Except that I was talking about Afghanistan, not the general context of the war against terror. What's the excuse for not helping out to the extent p
47 SKYSERVICE_330 : Canada has been pressing NATO allies for sometime now for more help in the south yet many are unwilling to lift any of the caveats governing their ro
48 Post contains links Pbottenb : From the thred starter: This is NOT Extraordinary Rendition, this is a legal deportion of a Syrian citizen to his country of origin, based on informat
49 NoUFO : But people are outraged. More importantly you are still trying to excuse the inexcusable by pointing your finger to other countries. You may have a p
50 9V : Let's hope you still think that if it ever happens to you.
51 NoUFO : This was definitely not legal but in breach with at least some UNHCR rules, not to mention that being held incommunicado does certainly not fall with
52 AerospaceFan : I would prefer that the context be provided. That is, that every time someone says that Arar was treated badly, it should be prominently noted that i
53 Schoenorama : The excuse is that the original premise of fighting terrorism in Afghanistan can no longer be maintained with another self-initiated major conflict i
54 AerospaceFan : That's a bit like saying that World War II could no longer be about Japan once the Allies defeated Nazi Germany. One doesn't imply the other. Or, if
55 Post contains images NoUFO : Yes, this is so comforting. Let's first fall for ideological terms like "war on terror" and then allow officials to systematically forget about basic
56 N229NW : I'm sorry, but this is one of the stupidest and most callous arguments I have ever seen. It's like saying that it is "hypocritical" to give money to
57 AerospaceFan : To be honest, we're not fighting for "basic rights". We're fighting to be free of the threat that someday, somewhere, when you and I least expect it,
58 Post contains links Pbottenb : From his own web site: http://www.maherarar.ca/mahers%20story.php On October 4 Arar receives a visit from Canadian consul Maureen Girvan. Arar shows
59 Schoenorama : Apples and Oranges! Afghanistan was about defeating those who attacked the U.S. on 9/11 and about making sure they would not again find a safe-have i
60 Pbottenb : Nice analogy. I dont agree with all of it, but I really like it. welcome to my RU list. Not that it matters, my respect rating is so low that Ill bri
61 Post contains links NoUFO : Yes, even if he had not lived in Canada, no country can legally deport anyone to a country where he or she may face torture or inhuman treatment. Mr
62 Pbottenb : Ok - I may be wrong on this....but, was he a refugee? not from what I can tell. he was a terror suspect. Are the rules differetn based on tis?
63 NoUFO : Besides all other aspects mentioned before, no individual must be deported to any country that may torture him, refugee or not.
64 MD-90 : You're probably correct about his statement, but it sounds like you have a higher tolerance for pain than most people. Hahahaha.....ain't that NOT th
65 Post contains links and images Baroque : Yep and MD90 has just beaten me to the explanation. I am not across the internal politics of the Red Cross, but it treads a difficult line, always ha
66 Post contains images Scbriml : Utter BS. We've been living with and fighting terrorism for a long time. In fact for a long time all the terrorism committed in the UK was largely fu
67 Baroque : Or killed!! I wonder what sort of amnesia it is that causes the long term funding of the IRA from the US to be a sort of black hole in a large part o
68 Post contains links SKYSERVICE_330 : A few have brought up the issue on here regarding compensation for Mr. Arar from the Canadian government. From a story today, at the bottom of the pag
69 Baroque : Slightly different, but here an Aus citizen, improperly sent to the Philippines for two years by our immigration dept has just received an estimated
70 DrDeke : And that has what, exactly, to do with anything? Oh right, nothing. Just because bad things have happened before doesn't mean that they should be con
71 LTBEWR : Sadly too, stories of people like Mr. Arar do get publicized in the Islamic world on their TV, magazines, newspapers and websites accessible there. Su
72 Post contains links Sprout5199 : I didn't want to reply to this but.... there is a saying: there are two things you don't want to see how they are made, laws and sausages. Well I gues
73 NoUFO : See reply #61 He did not ask for "US-citicens-only rights" but for general international rights. Being held incommunicado and being deported to a cou
74 AerospaceFan : I appreciate that Canada has engaged in these efforts. Thank you for that eludication, which I think is quite helpful. Pbottenb has noted that the Ar
75 Baroque : How do you work that out - as they say, references? Difficult to type with my jaw on the keyboard! Did you read the link that I gave. There are plent
76 AerospaceFan : The fact that war itself is rather insane makes cases of individual abuse less than extraordinary, in my view. War is war. Or, as someone else also sa
77 Post contains links SKYSERVICE_330 : Apparenlty Mr. Arar is not the only one... Ottawa calls inquiry into 3 Syrian detentions Last Updated: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 | 3:16 PM ET CBC New
78 Baroque : It is very difficult to comment. On the one hand you are saying it is unjustifiable and then you half accept it by using the word explicable. If you
79 AerospaceFan : I have reservations about the idea that we're at war, in fact. Wartime issues are distinguishable from civilian ones, and there is something about th
80 Baroque : We can definitely agree on that. The great pity is that war is now a relatively easy option for the larger powers. In WWII, this was not so, but now
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