Stratofish From Germany, joined Sep 2001, 1076 posts, RR: 5 Posted (14 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2043 times:
THE STATE OF ISRAEL HAS NOW JOINED THE RANKS OF TERRORISTS
With the most recent attacks on palestine the state and the government of Israel have proven that they are not interested in peace in the least but to choose to choose the shortsighted path of violence and terror.
The suicide attacks of the weekend, of course, have to be condemned!
There simply is no justification to kill innocont people.
But this applies to ALL sides. The actions Isreal is undertaking now puts them
on the same level as of the palestinian terrorists of the weekend, if not even below that.
Why? Because the real reason behind this so called "retaliation" is to provoke more terrorist action which will eventually lead to more bloodshed.
At the moment the Israely Army is attacking innocent palestinians and the innocent Yasser Arafat.
Yes, Arafat is innocont here! It has become obvious that he does not have any real power over the
militant groups such as Jihad or Hamas. Israel calls Arafat a terrorist: Are they nuts?
This man has contributed more to the peace process than any other man alive. I know he is no angel by far. He also has blood on his hands, but not more than Sharon or others.
It seems the world uses different measures of justification analysis here.
Sharon has said this is a war on terror. Wrong, it seems like this is a war on all palestinians that for whatever sick reason happen to live where Israel wants to live (this is what Israeli right wingers probably think). These acts of war are not against terrorism, there are backed at zionism,
which is nothing else than racism. Israeli air force attacks policestations and other
public authority buildings and at the same time demand that the Palestine authority acts harsher at the terrorists of Hamas, Hizbollah etc. I think they should, as well.
BUT how do you expect Arafat and his authorities to move aginst anyone if you permanently destroy their buildings and infrastructure???
It is either because you are just too dumb or blind to realise it or you do not want to realise it.
OR it is a well planned action to get rid of Arafat (some right wing sickos have already demanded that) to leave the Palestinians in complete chaos wich would result in even more attacks from Palestine terrorists, and give Israel a basis to start a grown out war wich (I am sure of that) COULD end in a genocide.
At this point it must also be allowed to speculate if the Mossad is responsible. It is mere speculation if it was the Mossad who carried out or initiated the atacks of the weekend, and I do not say it is the case (!), but I think it could be possible.
I am by no means a particular friend of Arabs, the Arab world or Islam.
Nor am I against the people of Israel. But what your government does is carrying out terror.
I can not stand that blood is shed in order to achieve political goals and Sharon has more blood on his hands than Arafat. And Sharon plans even more bloodshed.
This is not a question of religion or political perzeption.
It is about right and wrong and Israel is WRONG.
The Palestinians are unlikely to stop violence first because they suffer from supression and the counter violence is always greater, which creates anger. So it is up to Israel to stop the violence. Stop the attacks and all further counter attacks and the attacks from the palestinians
will also subside.
Peace to the world, even to those who maybe might not deserve it and all will profit.
Alpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (14 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1855 times:
Terror is strapping a bomb to your waist and blowing up 25 people with you. Retaliation is using military might to counter these acts of terror. I don't buy your hypothesis, and I never will. Unless Israel responds, they'll be at the mercy of these thugs.
Ryanb741 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2002, 3222 posts, RR: 15
Reply 3, posted (14 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1846 times:
The Israelis targeted Arafat today!!! What idiots! If they kill Arafat the USA had better get the hell out of that region and denounce Israel publically or I fear the number of attacks on the US will be magnified ten fold. Remember, the Arabs see the US backing of Israel as the cause of this all. The US needs to act NOW, or God help us all
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
Alpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (14 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1843 times:
Riiight, Ryanb741. Arafat has had chance after chance after chance after chance to do the right thing, and he has refuses, I suspect, for internal political reasons. He's a charlatian-he's never changed and he never will. He has hated Israel from day 1, and despite his laughable Nobel Peace Prize and his latter-years transformation, he hasn't changed.
What will result if Arafat is taken out, isn't an Arab war on Israel-Israel would kick the crap out of any of them, but an inter-Palestinain war, to determine the direction that the Palestinains will take from her-either peaceful negotiation with Israel, and the establishment of legitimate Palestinian state, or they'll fall completely to the terrorsts' who only want bloodshed.
Tbar220 From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7013 posts, RR: 23
Reply 6, posted (14 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 1835 times:
The Israeli deaths this weekend would be equivalent to 1260 American deaths, using the ratio of respective populations. And you have the gall to say that Israel is using terrorism? Last time I checked, its called self-defense.
And Arafat is one that has so much blood on his hands. His train of thought...
"Let's blow up some Israeli's...now let's condemn their deaths. The world will love us!"
He has continually failed his duty over the last seven years, and has done nothing to help the Palestinians themselves. Not to mention all the terrorists that he continually releases from the prisons. This is like giving Hamas a green light to carry out attacks. He is not innocent at all, and perhaps you need to look more carefully at how you think.
It's like you saying that the leader of the Taliban is an innocent. Agreed?
Stratofish From Germany, joined Sep 2001, 1076 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (14 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 1830 times:
To get this straight:
If one uses force to achieve political ends and kills civilians, that is what I call terrorism.
Most people injured in the air raides were school children (source: BBC) and if you had watched the pictures of Gaza city today you would have been struck about how familiar they were. It looked just like the place where they blew up the bombs last weekend. So we got victims here and victims there; so let´s see there will be more victims... yeah, sure.
Israel is not self defending anymore, it has gone beyond it. I thought I made that clear.
I would not call the targets military targets. Not at all! A police station a military target? And at the same time requesting they should arrest more? Makes sense.
Also I said that Strapping a bomb to yourself and blowing up a bus IS terrorism. I did condemn it and I mean it. I never supported the actions of militant Palestinians!
Alpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (14 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 1827 times:
What should Israel do, Stratofish? Let these continued deaths go unanswered every few days? Should they plead for the violence to stop-to a bunch of thugs who have no intention of EVER stopping the violence. I mean, come on, wake up and smell the coffee!! If it was happening to you and yours, you'd sure as hell fight back. And if you say you wouldn't you're not being honest, or you're just too scared to stand up to this kind of terror.
Alpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (14 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 1827 times:
I should have added that people like you are awful quick to condemn Israel for their actions, but I notice the never, EVER to I see any solutions offered on threads like this. None. But's it's easier to mindlessly condemn than it is to sit down and think of an alternative, isn't it?
Alpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (14 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 1823 times:
They are angry because they've wanted to destroy Israel since the day it was founded. There have been two wars launched by their Arab Bretheren to do just that destroy Israel, and they've both failed.
They're angry because they don't have a homeland, that's obvious. But after 40 years of terrorism against Israel, and they still don't have a state, isn't it about time they wizened up an changed tactics? Constant terrorism will NOT achieve their political objectives.
They're angry because, despite all the lofty rhetoric and talk about their "brothers, the Palestinians", the Arab world has done little to help ease their suffering, be it in Israel, Lebanon, Jordan, or wherever else they are. Remember in the early 70's, Jordan launched a bloody war AGAINST the Palestinians to drive them out of that nation.
Does all that sound "black and white" to you. You're problem is that you see it as black and white yourself. That it's Israel's fault for all their suffering, and, as you can see, that's not the case.
Twaneedsnohelp From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (14 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 1816 times:
This is the thought in Israel right now.
For 15 months Israel has prayed and prayed that Arafat would be their partner in peace. They have cried and weeped and prayed and prayed that Arafat would close down the mortar factories, they have been blown to bits hoping Arafat would disable the Hamas terrorist network, Islamic Jihad and all.
And what has happened Stratofish?
Palestinian policeman are now the ones blowing up Jerusalem and Arafat has not done anything to stop to stop this terror.
SO YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY WRONG. Israel has said, Arafat is worthless, as he has demonstrated himself and taken its actions to limit the power of his very real and very deadly presedenital guard and Palestinian police because while Palestine has no military it has this insane "police force" which acts as a paramilitary whose members are now (have been for 14 goddamn months) blowing up Israelis, and well the Israelis are pretty f*ciking tired of it.
So while the Arabs target teenagers and mothers, the Sharon went to the core of the problem over the last few days hitting helicopters, buildings, and other infrastructure that is used to kill his people.
LY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 9
Reply 18, posted (14 years 5 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 1800 times:
1. The Palestinian police is a legitimate military target. Let's see, does your local police department operate mortars, RPG launchers, heavy machine guns, and is every "officer" armed with an assault rifle? The PP is way too big for the population of the Palestinian autonomy, and since they aren't supposed to have an official army, the PP serves as their armed forces. Do you think all that size and fire power is aimed at keeping the law and order within their territory? Obviously, not. The Palestinian security forces have been heavily involved in various attacks on Israel in the past year.
2. Yasser Arafat is directly responsible for the death of all Israelis in the past year, and indirectly for the deaths of all the Israelis for the past decade. He has released hundreds of dangerous terrorists from jail a year ago.
3. If fish-face was the target of today's attacks, he'd be dead by now.
4. The Palestinians are so pissed off because the are trained to do so in Palestinian schools! From an early age, they are taught how Israel is the great satan and opressor of the Palestinians, and are encouraged (whether by officials or their family) to blow themselves up in Israel. The Palestinian media is also full of hateful anti-Israeli propoganda.
CPDC10-30 From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 4992 posts, RR: 22
Reply 21, posted (14 years 5 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 1784 times:
It appears that Sharon has more to worry about than just Arafat:
By OLIVER MOORE
Globe and Mail Update
Even as Israel declares war on Palestinian terrorism, Foreign Minister Shimon Peres warned that his Labour Party may leave the coalition government if Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat is toppled.
"I know there are many members of my party who think the time has come to leave the government," Mr. Peres said Tuesday in Bucharest at a meeting of the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe. "Upon my return home we shall meet and we shall decide."
Mr. Peres's left-leaning Labour Party — in a unity government with Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, head of the right-wing Likud party — favours rehabilitating ties with Mr. Arafat. A decision Monday night by the Israeli cabinet to declare Mr. Arafat's government a supporter of terrorism was taken after Labour ministers left the meeting in protest.
Meanwhile, European nations, alarmed at Israel's military retaliation for Palestinian terrorist attacks, urged both sides Tuesday to contain the violence before it is too late.
Arab leaders called for international pressure to bring a stop to violence and retaliation, while Islamic militants urged Mr. Arafat to "join the uprising."
The European Union said Mr. Arafat must "convincingly and relentlessly" pursue a crackdown against Islamic militants but warned Israel that airstrikes only weaken the Palestinian leader.
Israeli analyst Hanan Crystal said that Mr. Peres did not want a repeat of the 1982 invasion of Lebanon, when forces under the command of Mr. Sharon ignored a limit set by the government and advanced all the way to Beirut.
"It's like Lebanon. At 40 kilometres there was consensus, but if Sharon intends to try to get rid of Arafat and destroy the Palestinian Authority ... Labour will not stay in his government for one day," Mr. Crystal told Reuters.
Mr. Arafat faced little respite Tuesday in spite of the emerging divisions in the Israeli government. The Israeli ambassador to the United States heaped pressure on the Palestinian leader later Tuesday, saying that a week-long ceasefire is no longer enough to re-start peace talks, and Israeli warplanes targeted his office.
"It's not a question of seven days. The question is whether Arafat is going to start responding to terror," Ambassador David Ivry told the Washington Institute for Near East Policy.
Mr. Ivry said that Mr. Arafat must arrest militants and dismantle the infrastructure of the militant groups Hamas and Islamic Jihad before any new negotiations can begin.
Israel brought its attacks to Mr. Arafat's doorstep Tuesday, sending missiles within 30 metres of him as he worked at his desk.
"Arafat was in his office working when the Israeli helicopters fired missiles on the places around his office," said Ahmed Abdel Rahman, secretary-general of the Palestinian cabinet. "It's clear now that Sharon has decided to topple the Palestinian Authority and destroy the peace process."
An adviser to Mr. Sharon said, though, that Mr. Arafat was not the target. "We have stated publicly that we do not intend to harm him personally," said Danny Ayalon.
"But since he is responsible for the wave of terrorism which has been going on, we had to hit something close to him personally," he added.
Two Palestinians were killed in the Gaza Strip, one of them a 15-year-old student, when Israeli warplanes rocketed a Palestinian Authority security installation, doctors said.
In Gaza City, F-16s fired on the office of the Palestinian Preventive Security Service. Hundreds of children fled a nearby school after the first missile hit. A doctor said two people, a 15-year-old student and a 20-year-old man, were killed, and dozens of children were injured by shrapnel and debris.
The White House staunchly refused to criticize their strongest Mideast ally in spite of these reports. "The president's point of view is [that] Israel is a sovereign power — Israel has a right to defend itself," spokesman Ari Fleischer said.
Israeli soldiers have sealed off the West Bank to Palestinians hoping to reach jobs in Arab East Jerusalem. "Go back home," they told the commuters, "No one will pass from here."
Israeli forces also closed down back roads often used to bypass official checkpoints and deployed tanks at West Bank intersections.
The air raids and security clampdown come only hours after Israel's cabinet branded Mr. Arafat's government a supporter of terrorism and singled out two organizations affiliated with the Palestinian leader as terror groups — the Tanzim militia and Force 17, a branch of the Palestinian Authority's security forces.
U.S. President George W. Bush announced Tuesday that authorities have seized four offices of the Texas-based Holy Land Foundation for Relief and Development, saying it is not the charity it purports to be.
"It raised $13-million from people in America last year," he told a news conference. "Money raised by the Holy Land Foundation is used by Hamas ... to indoctrinate children to grow up into suicide bombers."
"America has called on other nations to supress the financing of terror, today we take further steps to suppress it inside our border," he said. "Terrorists benefit by the Holy Land Foundation, and we're not going to allow it."
Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has declared an all-out "war on terror" in response to suicide bombings and shooting attacks by the Palestinian resistance that killed 26 people and wounded nearly 200 over the weekend.
"The Palestinian Authority is an entity that supports terrorism, and must be dealt with accordingly," the Likud-dominated government said in a statement, over the wishes of Labour legislators.
Controversy between the Likud and Labour had already broken into the open in a security cabinet meeting last Wednesday, IsraelInsider has reported. Mr. Peres was highly critical of the selection of Major-General Meir Dagan to head the Israeli team negotiating with the Palestinians.
"You've created a second foreign ministry," Mr. Peres reportedly said, complaining that he was being frozen out of the negotiations.
Boeing in pdx From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (14 years 5 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 1784 times:
I think that Alpha 1 is right. The Arab countries never wanted to live with the israelies. And besides Isreal and the Palistinians are at war, the things they do are not cowerdly attacks on malls and discos they are blowing up military targets. I assume most of the people are from Israelie hating Britian so it is imposible to convince them the truth. or San Fransico where people grow up to fight for the Taliban.
Scorpio From Belgium, joined Oct 2001, 5297 posts, RR: 43
Reply 23, posted (14 years 5 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 1785 times:
'An eye for an eye will make the whole world go blind' (Ghandi). That's exactly what's happening here. It seems they're going round in circles: Palestine terrorists attack Israeli targets, so Israel retaliates, causing more death. This will lead to Palestines wanting revenge on their part. Thus even more bloodshed. Israel will again retaliate, etc. The way things are going today, we're not going anywhere. To solve this, someone will HAVE to break the circle of violence. That is the first step. As long as none of the parties (Palestinians AND Israelis) are willing to do that, this problem will not be solved. Period.
Who's to blame? I don't know, and I think no-one really knows. Fact is that Sharon's hardline approach is not working, and Arafat seems to have lost all control (if he ever really had any) over Hamas and Jihad. Sharon's approach of heavy retaliation to attacks has, as could be feared, provoked even more violence, and both parties are farther apart than ever.