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Israel Chose Terror To Fight Terror. Bad Move!  
User currently offlineStratofish From Germany, joined Sep 2001, 1051 posts, RR: 5
Posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 1429 times:

THE STATE OF ISRAEL HAS NOW JOINED THE RANKS OF TERRORISTS

With the most recent attacks on palestine the state and the government of Israel have proven that they are not interested in peace in the least but to choose to choose the shortsighted path of violence and terror.

The suicide attacks of the weekend, of course, have to be condemned!
There simply is no justification to kill innocont people.

But this applies to ALL sides. The actions Isreal is undertaking now puts them
on the same level as of the palestinian terrorists of the weekend, if not even below that.
Why? Because the real reason behind this so called "retaliation" is to provoke more terrorist action which will eventually lead to more bloodshed.
At the moment the Israely Army is attacking innocent palestinians and the innocent Yasser Arafat.
Yes, Arafat is innocont here! It has become obvious that he does not have any real power over the
militant groups such as Jihad or Hamas. Israel calls Arafat a terrorist: Are they nuts?
This man has contributed more to the peace process than any other man alive. I know he is no angel by far. He also has blood on his hands, but not more than Sharon or others.
It seems the world uses different measures of justification analysis here.

Sharon has said this is a war on terror. Wrong, it seems like this is a war on all palestinians that for whatever sick reason happen to live where Israel wants to live (this is what Israeli right wingers probably think). These acts of war are not against terrorism, there are backed at zionism,
which is nothing else than racism. Israeli air force attacks policestations and other
public authority buildings and at the same time demand that the Palestine authority acts harsher at the terrorists of Hamas, Hizbollah etc. I think they should, as well.
BUT how do you expect Arafat and his authorities to move aginst anyone if you permanently destroy their buildings and infrastructure???
It is either because you are just too dumb or blind to realise it or you do not want to realise it.
OR it is a well planned action to get rid of Arafat (some right wing sickos have already demanded that) to leave the Palestinians in complete chaos wich would result in even more attacks from Palestine terrorists, and give Israel a basis to start a grown out war wich (I am sure of that) COULD end in a genocide.
At this point it must also be allowed to speculate if the Mossad is responsible. It is mere speculation if it was the Mossad who carried out or initiated the atacks of the weekend, and I do not say it is the case (!), but I think it could be possible.

I am by no means a particular friend of Arabs, the Arab world or Islam.
Nor am I against the people of Israel. But what your government does is carrying out terror.
I can not stand that blood is shed in order to achieve political goals and Sharon has more blood on his hands than Arafat. And Sharon plans even more bloodshed.

This is not a question of religion or political perzeption.
It is about right and wrong and Israel is WRONG.

So sad...

The Palestinians are unlikely to stop violence first because they suffer from supression and the counter violence is always greater, which creates anger. So it is up to Israel to stop the violence. Stop the attacks and all further counter attacks and the attacks from the palestinians
will also subside.
Peace to the world, even to those who maybe might not deserve it and all will profit.


Stratofish


The Metro might be the Sub(optimal)way
130 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAlpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1241 times:

Terror is strapping a bomb to your waist and blowing up 25 people with you. Retaliation is using military might to counter these acts of terror. I don't buy your hypothesis, and I never will. Unless Israel responds, they'll be at the mercy of these thugs.

User currently offlineMarco From United Arab Emirates, joined Jul 2000, 4169 posts, RR: 12
Reply 2, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1238 times:

So attacking military targets of suspected terrorist supporters is being equated with the bombing of a civilian bus? What is the world coming to  Insane?


Proud to be an Assyrian!
User currently offlineRyanb741 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2002, 3221 posts, RR: 16
Reply 3, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1232 times:

The Israelis targeted Arafat today!!! What idiots! If they kill Arafat the USA had better get the hell out of that region and denounce Israel publically or I fear the number of attacks on the US will be magnified ten fold. Remember, the Arabs see the US backing of Israel as the cause of this all. The US needs to act NOW, or God help us all  Sad


I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
User currently offlineAlpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1229 times:

Riiight, Ryanb741. Arafat has had chance after chance after chance after chance to do the right thing, and he has refuses, I suspect, for internal political reasons. He's a charlatian-he's never changed and he never will. He has hated Israel from day 1, and despite his laughable Nobel Peace Prize and his latter-years transformation, he hasn't changed.

What will result if Arafat is taken out, isn't an Arab war on Israel-Israel would kick the crap out of any of them, but an inter-Palestinain war, to determine the direction that the Palestinains will take from her-either peaceful negotiation with Israel, and the establishment of legitimate Palestinian state, or they'll fall completely to the terrorsts' who only want bloodshed.


User currently offlineRyanb741 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2002, 3221 posts, RR: 16
Reply 5, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1227 times:

The point being that any future Palestinian leader will come from either Hamas or Islamic Jihad. And I'm sure they will be sooooo keen to 'negotiate'.  Big grin


I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
User currently offlineTbar220 From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7013 posts, RR: 26
Reply 6, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1221 times:

The Israeli deaths this weekend would be equivalent to 1260 American deaths, using the ratio of respective populations. And you have the gall to say that Israel is using terrorism? Last time I checked, its called self-defense.

And Arafat is one that has so much blood on his hands. His train of thought...

"Let's blow up some Israeli's...now let's condemn their deaths. The world will love us!"

He has continually failed his duty over the last seven years, and has done nothing to help the Palestinians themselves. Not to mention all the terrorists that he continually releases from the prisons. This is like giving Hamas a green light to carry out attacks. He is not innocent at all, and perhaps you need to look more carefully at how you think.

It's like you saying that the leader of the Taliban is an innocent. Agreed?



NO URLS in signature
User currently offlineAussiemite From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1224 times:

let me get this right:

Flying a plane into a building is terrorism.

Strapping a bomb to yourself and blowing up a bus isnt terrorism.

Using F16's to blow up military targets is terrorism.

 Nuts  Nuts  Nuts


User currently offlineStratofish From Germany, joined Sep 2001, 1051 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1216 times:

To get this straight:
If one uses force to achieve political ends and kills civilians, that is what I call terrorism.

Most people injured in the air raides were school children (source: BBC) and if you had watched the pictures of Gaza city today you would have been struck about how familiar they were. It looked just like the place where they blew up the bombs last weekend. So we got victims here and victims there; so let´s see there will be more victims... yeah, sure.

Israel is not self defending anymore, it has gone beyond it. I thought I made that clear.
I would not call the targets military targets. Not at all! A police station a military target? And at the same time requesting they should arrest more? Makes sense.  Yeah sure
Also I said that Strapping a bomb to yourself and blowing up a bus IS terrorism. I did condemn it and I mean it. I never supported the actions of militant Palestinians!




The Metro might be the Sub(optimal)way
User currently offlineIainhol From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1216 times:

The preposterous thing is that Israel says our the Palestians are not arresting the people they want arrested, which is hardly surprising considering they are attacking police stations!
Iain


User currently offlineStratofish From Germany, joined Sep 2001, 1051 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1214 times:

BTW: I disaggree with you Tbar220. Of course the Taliban are not innocent! But I know one of my statements was tricky and maybe you got me wrong on that.


The Metro might be the Sub(optimal)way
User currently offlineAlpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1213 times:

What should Israel do, Stratofish? Let these continued deaths go unanswered every few days? Should they plead for the violence to stop-to a bunch of thugs who have no intention of EVER stopping the violence. I mean, come on, wake up and smell the coffee!! If it was happening to you and yours, you'd sure as hell fight back. And if you say you wouldn't you're not being honest, or you're just too scared to stand up to this kind of terror.

User currently offlineAlpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1213 times:

I should have added that people like you are awful quick to condemn Israel for their actions, but I notice the never, EVER to I see any solutions offered on threads like this. None. But's it's easier to mindlessly condemn than it is to sit down and think of an alternative, isn't it?

User currently offlineRyanb741 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2002, 3221 posts, RR: 16
Reply 13, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1210 times:

Round and round in circles we go.... Alpha1 - WHY do you think the Palestinians are so angry in the first place? Answer that one and then come back with your talk of retribution.

You see the World in black and white only and that is IMO a failing on your part.



I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
User currently offlineAlpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1209 times:

They are angry because they've wanted to destroy Israel since the day it was founded. There have been two wars launched by their Arab Bretheren to do just that destroy Israel, and they've both failed.

They're angry because they don't have a homeland, that's obvious. But after 40 years of terrorism against Israel, and they still don't have a state, isn't it about time they wizened up an changed tactics? Constant terrorism will NOT achieve their political objectives.

They're angry because, despite all the lofty rhetoric and talk about their "brothers, the Palestinians", the Arab world has done little to help ease their suffering, be it in Israel, Lebanon, Jordan, or wherever else they are. Remember in the early 70's, Jordan launched a bloody war AGAINST the Palestinians to drive them out of that nation.

Does all that sound "black and white" to you. You're problem is that you see it as black and white yourself. That it's Israel's fault for all their suffering, and, as you can see, that's not the case.


User currently offlineRyanb741 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2002, 3221 posts, RR: 16
Reply 15, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1204 times:

 Insane  Insane  Insane  Insane  Insane  Insane  Insane  Insane  Insane  Insane  Insane  Insane  Insane  Insane  Insane  Insane  Insane  Insane  Insane  Insane  Insane


I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
User currently offlineB757300 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 4114 posts, RR: 23
Reply 16, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1201 times:

In the minds of a lot of people on this forum, it is ok to blow up innocent civilians but it is murder to kill terrorists.


"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
User currently offlineTwaneedsnohelp From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1202 times:

This is the thought in Israel right now.

For 15 months Israel has prayed and prayed that Arafat would be their partner in peace. They have cried and weeped and prayed and prayed that Arafat would close down the mortar factories, they have been blown to bits hoping Arafat would disable the Hamas terrorist network, Islamic Jihad and all.

And what has happened Stratofish?

Palestinian policeman are now the ones blowing up Jerusalem and Arafat has not done anything to stop to stop this terror.

SO YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY WRONG. Israel has said, Arafat is worthless, as he has demonstrated himself and taken its actions to limit the power of his very real and very deadly presedenital guard and Palestinian police because while Palestine has no military it has this insane "police force" which acts as a paramilitary whose members are now (have been for 14 goddamn months) blowing up Israelis, and well the Israelis are pretty f*ciking tired of it.

So while the Arabs target teenagers and mothers, the Sharon went to the core of the problem over the last few days hitting helicopters, buildings, and other infrastructure that is used to kill his people.

Helicopters stratofish, not mothers and teens.


User currently offlineLY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 10
Reply 18, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1186 times:

1. The Palestinian police is a legitimate military target. Let's see, does your local police department operate mortars, RPG launchers, heavy machine guns, and is every "officer" armed with an assault rifle? The PP is way too big for the population of the Palestinian autonomy, and since they aren't supposed to have an official army, the PP serves as their armed forces. Do you think all that size and fire power is aimed at keeping the law and order within their territory? Obviously, not. The Palestinian security forces have been heavily involved in various attacks on Israel in the past year.
2. Yasser Arafat is directly responsible for the death of all Israelis in the past year, and indirectly for the deaths of all the Israelis for the past decade. He has released hundreds of dangerous terrorists from jail a year ago.
3. If fish-face was the target of today's attacks, he'd be dead by now.
4. The Palestinians are so pissed off because the are trained to do so in Palestinian schools! From an early age, they are taught how Israel is the great satan and opressor of the Palestinians, and are encouraged (whether by officials or their family) to blow themselves up in Israel. The Palestinian media is also full of hateful anti-Israeli propoganda.

LY744.



Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
User currently offlineLeftseat86 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1183 times:

Like Sharon is any better...  Insane

User currently offlineCPDC10-30 From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2000, 4776 posts, RR: 24
Reply 20, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 1179 times:

 Insane  Insane  Insane  Insane  Insane  Insane  Insane  Insane  Insane  Insane  Insane  Insane  Insane  Insane  Insane  Insane  Insane

User currently offlineCPDC10-30 From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2000, 4776 posts, RR: 24
Reply 21, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 1170 times:

It appears that Sharon has more to worry about than just Arafat:

By OLIVER MOORE
Globe and Mail Update


Even as Israel declares war on Palestinian terrorism, Foreign Minister Shimon Peres warned that his Labour Party may leave the coalition government if Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat is toppled.

"I know there are many members of my party who think the time has come to leave the government," Mr. Peres said Tuesday in Bucharest at a meeting of the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe. "Upon my return home we shall meet and we shall decide."

Mr. Peres's left-leaning Labour Party — in a unity government with Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, head of the right-wing Likud party — favours rehabilitating ties with Mr. Arafat. A decision Monday night by the Israeli cabinet to declare Mr. Arafat's government a supporter of terrorism was taken after Labour ministers left the meeting in protest.

Meanwhile, European nations, alarmed at Israel's military retaliation for Palestinian terrorist attacks, urged both sides Tuesday to contain the violence before it is too late.

Arab leaders called for international pressure to bring a stop to violence and retaliation, while Islamic militants urged Mr. Arafat to "join the uprising."

The European Union said Mr. Arafat must "convincingly and relentlessly" pursue a crackdown against Islamic militants but warned Israel that airstrikes only weaken the Palestinian leader.

Israeli analyst Hanan Crystal said that Mr. Peres did not want a repeat of the 1982 invasion of Lebanon, when forces under the command of Mr. Sharon ignored a limit set by the government and advanced all the way to Beirut.

"It's like Lebanon. At 40 kilometres there was consensus, but if Sharon intends to try to get rid of Arafat and destroy the Palestinian Authority ... Labour will not stay in his government for one day," Mr. Crystal told Reuters.

Mr. Arafat faced little respite Tuesday in spite of the emerging divisions in the Israeli government. The Israeli ambassador to the United States heaped pressure on the Palestinian leader later Tuesday, saying that a week-long ceasefire is no longer enough to re-start peace talks, and Israeli warplanes targeted his office.

"It's not a question of seven days. The question is whether Arafat is going to start responding to terror," Ambassador David Ivry told the Washington Institute for Near East Policy.

Mr. Ivry said that Mr. Arafat must arrest militants and dismantle the infrastructure of the militant groups Hamas and Islamic Jihad before any new negotiations can begin.

Israel brought its attacks to Mr. Arafat's doorstep Tuesday, sending missiles within 30 metres of him as he worked at his desk.

"Arafat was in his office working when the Israeli helicopters fired missiles on the places around his office," said Ahmed Abdel Rahman, secretary-general of the Palestinian cabinet. "It's clear now that Sharon has decided to topple the Palestinian Authority and destroy the peace process."

An adviser to Mr. Sharon said, though, that Mr. Arafat was not the target. "We have stated publicly that we do not intend to harm him personally," said Danny Ayalon.

"But since he is responsible for the wave of terrorism which has been going on, we had to hit something close to him personally," he added.

Two Palestinians were killed in the Gaza Strip, one of them a 15-year-old student, when Israeli warplanes rocketed a Palestinian Authority security installation, doctors said.

In Gaza City, F-16s fired on the office of the Palestinian Preventive Security Service. Hundreds of children fled a nearby school after the first missile hit. A doctor said two people, a 15-year-old student and a 20-year-old man, were killed, and dozens of children were injured by shrapnel and debris.

The White House staunchly refused to criticize their strongest Mideast ally in spite of these reports. "The president's point of view is [that] Israel is a sovereign power — Israel has a right to defend itself," spokesman Ari Fleischer said.

Israeli soldiers have sealed off the West Bank to Palestinians hoping to reach jobs in Arab East Jerusalem. "Go back home," they told the commuters, "No one will pass from here."

Israeli forces also closed down back roads often used to bypass official checkpoints and deployed tanks at West Bank intersections.

The air raids and security clampdown come only hours after Israel's cabinet branded Mr. Arafat's government a supporter of terrorism and singled out two organizations affiliated with the Palestinian leader as terror groups — the Tanzim militia and Force 17, a branch of the Palestinian Authority's security forces.

U.S. President George W. Bush announced Tuesday that authorities have seized four offices of the Texas-based Holy Land Foundation for Relief and Development, saying it is not the charity it purports to be.

"It raised $13-million from people in America last year," he told a news conference. "Money raised by the Holy Land Foundation is used by Hamas ... to indoctrinate children to grow up into suicide bombers."

"America has called on other nations to supress the financing of terror, today we take further steps to suppress it inside our border," he said. "Terrorists benefit by the Holy Land Foundation, and we're not going to allow it."

Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has declared an all-out "war on terror" in response to suicide bombings and shooting attacks by the Palestinian resistance that killed 26 people and wounded nearly 200 over the weekend.

"The Palestinian Authority is an entity that supports terrorism, and must be dealt with accordingly," the Likud-dominated government said in a statement, over the wishes of Labour legislators.

Controversy between the Likud and Labour had already broken into the open in a security cabinet meeting last Wednesday, IsraelInsider has reported. Mr. Peres was highly critical of the selection of Major-General Meir Dagan to head the Israeli team negotiating with the Palestinians.

"You've created a second foreign ministry," Mr. Peres reportedly said, complaining that he was being frozen out of the negotiations.

With reports from AP and Reuters


User currently offlineBoeing in pdx From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 1170 times:

I think that Alpha 1 is right. The Arab countries never wanted to live with the israelies. And besides Isreal and the Palistinians are at war, the things they do are not cowerdly attacks on malls and discos they are blowing up military targets. I assume most of the people are from Israelie hating Britian so it is imposible to convince them the truth. or San Fransico where people grow up to fight for the Taliban.

User currently offlineScorpio From Belgium, joined Oct 2001, 5014 posts, RR: 44
Reply 23, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 1171 times:

'An eye for an eye will make the whole world go blind' (Ghandi). That's exactly what's happening here. It seems they're going round in circles: Palestine terrorists attack Israeli targets, so Israel retaliates, causing more death. This will lead to Palestines wanting revenge on their part. Thus even more bloodshed. Israel will again retaliate, etc. The way things are going today, we're not going anywhere. To solve this, someone will HAVE to break the circle of violence. That is the first step. As long as none of the parties (Palestinians AND Israelis) are willing to do that, this problem will not be solved. Period.

Who's to blame? I don't know, and I think no-one really knows. Fact is that Sharon's hardline approach is not working, and Arafat seems to have lost all control (if he ever really had any) over Hamas and Jihad. Sharon's approach of heavy retaliation to attacks has, as could be feared, provoked even more violence, and both parties are farther apart than ever.


User currently offlinePilot1113 From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 2333 posts, RR: 12
Reply 24, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 1162 times:

It's apparent that other means have failed to bring peace.

- Neil Harrison


25 Stratofish : LY744: "2. Yasser Arafat is directly responsible for the death of all Israelis in the past year, and indirectly for the deaths of all the Israelis for
26 Post contains images ADG : Now Joined? Now? Think they've been there for a very long time. And those who try and *justify* the behaviour by saying that Palestine does it to are
27 LY744 : ADG, your post has made no sense, as usual. Scorpio: I do agree with you in general, but I have to say that even if Israel was not to retaliate, the t
28 Flyguy1 : You think it matters what Arafat does? Even if tommorow morning he stood in the middle of Gaza, and said "NO MORE ATTACKS" it wouldnt mean much. There
29 Alpha 1 : Scorpio, you make some excellent points in your thread, but the question is: if the peace process, such as it is, hasn't solved the problem, and if co
30 Ryanb741 : It is preposterous to suggest that Arafat could stop the terrorist activity - this is why Sharon should not have insisted on a 2 week ceasefire before
31 L-188 : Since neither group seems to be able to control themselves, it has become obvious that something must happen. Either A: both sides fight it out until
32 LY744 : Why do you people keep suggesting that Arafat is so poor and powerless? Why does he need the huge (and armed to the teeth) Palestinian police? Maybe h
33 Scorpio : Well, if Israel would stop retaliating, sure terrorist attacks will not immedialtely stop. But it could stop the violence from escalating, which is wh
34 Toda,Reisinger : ..."it is clear that organisations such as Hamas and Jihad will not do this, after all they're pure terrorist organisations, operating independently o
35 Alpha 1 : Well, if Israel would stop retaliating, sure terrorist attacks will not immedialtely stop. But it could stop the violence from escalating, which is wh
36 Stratofish : "No, the de-escalation has to come from the side of the Palestinians, not the Israeli's, in my view." That is exactly what brings everyone nowhere. ON
37 Dell_dude : I support your views Alpha 1. It's a shame that some people think that we should just let the TERRORISTS have what they want to shut them up, but that
38 Post contains images Leftseat86 : What I still don't understand, is why land that used to belong to Palestinians, is now Israeli??? After WW2 we just came in and said "Alright Palestin
39 Alpha 1 : This would be THE chance for Israel to show the world that they are not the ones who teach they children hatred. And what happens Stratofish, when ano
40 Alpha 1 : Leftseat, the state of Israel was created in 1948. I believe the seeds of that creation go back long before that, to something called the Balfour Trea
41 Leftseat86 : So your point being? It still was Palestinian land...
42 Scorpio : Dell_dude, It's a shame that some people think that we should just let the TERRORISTS have what they want to shut them up, but that's NOT how it works
43 Alpha 1 : Which is why we call them terrorists and they need to be brought to justice. They will not stop, indeed, but it is clear that the more violence Israel
44 Tbar220 : Leftseat, before 1948, there was no state in the area. Honestly, it was just a piece of land (named Palestine, it needs a name, not just "Piece of Lan
45 Hamlet69 : Dear all, This is obviously a complicated and emotional situation. Without taking sides, I'd like to comment on the history of the situation, as I jus
46 Leftseat86 : "was immediately invaded by armies from all the surrounding Arab countries. Several cease-fires were called, but few lasted until January 1949, when a
47 LY744 : Alpha 1, the USSR did recognize Israel, in fact, it was one of the first countries to do so. Further more, the Soviet "organized" a deal in which Isra
48 Stratofish : First I think we need to thank Hamlet for his effort to bring more light into the history of what we talk about. Second, I am glad to see most here at
49 Airplanenut : I don't know if this was said yet, but is this not EXACTLY what the US did to Afghanistan? Act of terrorism committed against US, we blow the life out
50 Post contains images Scorpio : Uh-oh, Airplanenut, you've opened a big can of worms with that last post.. Hold on, cause this won't be pretty...
51 Tbar220 : Sharon wouldn't last long in power if the coalition breaks up. This would quickly lead to a vote of no confidence (what happened to Barak) and you wou
52 LY744 : "Israel stops attacking Palestine and contributes its part to improve live in the territories" That would be tough, considering the efforts the Palest
53 Airplanenut : Sorry if I spark something (not my intention) but I think that is something important to note (I have gotten into HUGE arguments in person about this
54 Mark2102 : Israelies did not go into a mall and blow up themselves. They are just responding to the terrorist attacks brought against them. They are 100% right b
55 AgnusBymaster : Israel Chose Terror To Fight Terror Are you trying to suggest this as something new? My general impression is that Israel's tactics have changed very
56 FSPilot747 : Alpha1 "They're angry because they don't have a homeland, that's obvious. -They don't have a homeland because it was snatched away from them. They wer
57 Tbar220 : FSPilot747, are you trying to say that there hasn't been terrorism against Israel for the last 40 years? Actual history will show you that Israel has
58 Twaneedsnohelp : Arafat's finished. He has done nothing to combat terror and Israel and the west are tired of him. If he doesn't do something constructive in the next
59 FSPilot747 : I never said that TBar, your assuming things from my post. Of course it has been targets of violence. There is no question about it. Maybe I should un
60 Cfalk : Arafat tried to arrest the head of Hamas this morning, and his forces were beaten back by Hamas militants, several people wounded in the process. Char
61 Post contains images LY744 : FSPilot747: "but how many Palestinians were savagely murdered in the refugee camps by Israel?? " Um, none? "If only you knew" Oh, and you do? Give me
62 Alpha 1 : If this violence does not cease... FSPilot747, for violence to cease in any conflict, you need a situation where BOTH sides are WILLING to cease fire,
63 EmiratesLover : Absolutely agree with Stratofish. As the Israeli Peace movement Gush Shalom recently said, the occupation is killing both Palestinians and Israelis. I
64 Post contains images LY744 : EmiratesLover, you poor misguided soul... Are you saying that if Israel left the WB and GS there would be no terrorist attacks? Or are you saying that
65 Alpha 1 : EmiratesLover, I wish it were that simple, but that's simply not the case any longer. Even IF a Palestinian state were declared today-and even if by s
66 EmiratesLover : If #1 is correct, then how would you explain the refusal of the Palestinian leadership to accept the most full and comprehensive peace deal they could
67 Alpha 1 : If #1 is correct, then how would you explain the refusal of the Palestinian leadership to accept the most full and comprehensive peace deal they could
68 Post contains images LY744 : He he... EmiratesLover, you may wanna put quotation marks and/or italize when you quote other members in the future... It seems to cause some confusio
69 Toda,Reisinger : "Yet the Palestinians were stupid enough to be goaded by such an act, and we've had 2 years of warfare since." ... The "spontaneous intifada" had been
70 Tbar220 : Also, why is it that Israel has faced more terrorism and violence from Arafat in the last eight years then it ever has? Have you heard of the Oslo Acc
71 Stratofish : "And the current trouble started when Ariel Sharon was stupid enough to piss off the Palestinians by his visit to a shared Holy site. Yet the Palestin
72 ADG : Last 14 months: Israeli deaths: 222 Palestinian deaths: 740+
73 LY744 : ADG: Yup, Arafat and co sure do put a lot of effort into getting their people killed. LY744.
74 Alpha 1 : So, ADG, we now condemn or make the agressor based on numbers of who have died? A little simplistic, don't you think? I look at it from the vantage po
75 Stratofish : Now what´s simplistic? Saying one is the agressor because of his sick views or the other one because of his sick moves/agressions? THE agressor at th
76 ADG : Alpha1, I didn't say anything at all .. I just named the figures as they appeared in The Canberra Times on Wednesday last week. If you are interested
77 Post contains images Alpha 1 : THE agressor at the moment is the state of Israel and his head Sharon. the embodiements of agression, hatred and murder. even more than on the other s
78 Alpha 1 : Believe it or not, I wasn't attacking you, but was asking you a rhetorical question to get further clarification. Thanks for explaining it further. An
79 Toda,Reisinger : "THE agressor at the moment is the state of Israel and his head Sharon. the embodiements of agression, hatred and murder. even more than on the other
80 ADG : Toda. How can you call what others post as "bullshit" when you so clearly only post one side? I very clearly stated that 222 Israelis have been killed
81 Post contains images Stratofish : Toda: First read ADG´s post, I could not have said it better. Second compare these numbers. Furthermore: Do you (not only Toda) know the meaning of a
82 Hamlet69 : Gentlemen (and Ladies, if any are reading this), First, let's everyone calm down a bit, alright. Its clear that this issue affects us all in some way
83 Toda,Reisinger : "THE agressor at the moment is the state of Israel and his head Sharon. the embodiements of agression, hatred and murder. even more than on the other
84 LY744 : "BTW: Sharon just rejected a peace offer...." Oh yeah??? What about all the peace deals Arafat refused to accept?! Like the one that he used to start
85 ADG : Intolerance, that's a good word for it, we're seeing it right here in this thread. Comments such as: 1. They are both agressors = you are anti isreali
86 Aloha 737-200 : You know, these arguments always go in circles, that's why I don't participate anymore. Would anyone else care to join me in boycotting any posts abou
87 Lehpron : Tbar220 you're so silly. Of course the Taliban were innocent, what specifically did they do to us? Absolutely nothing, except foolishly not hand over
88 TWAneedsNOhelp : No but if you harbor a murdered, than your a criminal! plain and simple. As far as ADG's queries regarding Judaism, our holy books, and our purported
89 Post contains images ADG : TWA, Doesn't take a mental genius to figure out that if other countries can combat crime without killing children then so could Israel if it so desire
90 Toda,Reisinger : "1. They are both agressors = you are anti isreali 2. Both sides are terrorists = you are anti isreali 3. Neither side want peace = you are anti isrea
91 Toda,Reisinger : Lehpron , "Just because I "harbor" a knife doesn't mean I'll kill someone." no; but if you hold that knife at the disposal of a killer, you're far fro
92 Stratofish : Well at leat that peace offer would have ended the bloodshed for a little while... ". The retaliation for a series of bloody terrorist attacks is an a
93 ADG : TWA, Unfortunately you are to biased for reasonable and rational discussion. Pity really because I am quite happy to discuss the issue with those who
94 Toda,Reisinger : Here are some quotations from "one of the most neutral ones on this thread"...: THE agressor at the moment is the state of Israel and his head Sharon.
95 ADG : Sharon has more blood on his hands than Arafat. And Sharon plans even more bloodshed. - you have a peculiar way of calculation...Or is Jewish blood li
96 Post contains images Stratofish : Wow, I would never have put such an effort into one post... To get beck on the serious side again. Most (in fact all but very few) of my statements go
97 LY744 : "I wonder which part of 222 Isreali dead compared to 700+ Palestinians you are having a problem with" The only thing that tells me is that there is on
98 Alpha 1 : TWA, Doesn't take a mental genius to figure out that if other countries can combat crime without killing children then so could Israel if it so desire
99 LY772 : Stratofish If Israel and the Sharon government are terrorists, then I guess the US, Britain, France, the Northern Alliance, both the Koreas, any count
100 Post contains images Aloha 737-200 : Oh come on guys, take a look over this whole thread, youre all repeating youselves over and over again. You guys should know that these arguments are
101 Toda,Reisinger : "THE agressor at the moment is the state of Israel and his head Sharon. the embodiements of agression, hatred and murder. even more than on the other
102 Aloha 737-200 : OH come on, read my last reply, please?
103 Leftseat86 : Toda, I remember you once telling me that the land that the British used to form the state of Israel was just "empty unused land".... Sure...
104 Post contains images OO-AOG : because last time I checked, the Aborigines hadn't declared war on your society, and didn't demand it's elimination and destruction, had it? As far as
105 Alpha 1 : OO-AOG, nitpick if you want, but you know you understand the point, and are just sidestepping the issue. The fact is what ADG says was comparing apple
106 Toda,Reisinger : Leftseat86, you have a peculiar memory... I've never said the land was just "empty unused land"....; all I could have said is that there has NEVER bee
107 Post contains images LY744 : Australia doesn't use its military to fight because A) It's not the same, as Alpha 1 has already explained B) There is no danger that those criminals,
108 ADG : Alpha1, You are correct. I cannot find an exact example within my country because we are a peaceful group who are TRYING TO LIVE WITH the original inh
109 Post contains images ADG : Guess it shows your ignorance of our country. Our aboriginals DO feel displaced, they DO believe their country was overrun by the british and stolen f
110 Alpha 1 : Alpha1, You are correct. I cannot find an exact example within my country because we are a peaceful group who are TRYING TO LIVE WITH the original inh
111 Stratofish : "For some reason, everybody assumes that the Palestiniansare the Aboriginal people..." Well they are the native inhabbitants aren´t they??? please co
112 Twaneedsnohelp : Attention: Stratofish and ADG I thought for awhile today as I was driving back to college about similiarities between Israel and the Palestinians as y
113 LY744 : Stratofish, as much as I hate to get into this, but the Jews were there before the Palestinians. The Palestinians settled in there some time after the
114 Alpha 1 : ADG, I saw you throwning around some casualty figures recently, in your never-ending attempt to make the Israeli's look like the bad guy. How about th
115 ADG : I thought for awhile today as I was driving back to college about similiarities between Israel and the Palestinians as you so assert. I didn't come up
116 Post contains images Stratofish : 1.) "What I'm basically trying to say is that both sides have an equall right to live on at least a part of that land." Exactly what I think, but I mi
117 LY744 : Stratofish, the radio station that was destroyed was just another tool in the hands of the Palestinian leadership to spread lies and encourage hate fo
118 Lehpron : "No, but if you harbor a murdered, than your a criminal! plain and simple" Then why do we still refer to OBL as a 'suspect'? If my son or daughter was
119 FSPilot747 : LY744: "Stratofish, the radio station that was destroyed was just another tool in the hands of the Palestinian leadership to spread lies and encourage
120 Twaneedsnohelp : Dumb answer. No one is asking the Palestinians to "spread love for Israel". Israel just doesn't want the radio station to continue spreading malicious
121 Lehpron : That's something else I still don't understand. Why does Israel react to the suicide bombings with fighter jets? That's like if you hit me with a big
122 Toda,Reisinger : "This situation would *probably* be more fair if both sides had the same availability to the same weapons" "MORE FAIR"?????????!!!!!!!!!!!! - Fighter
123 LY744 : FSPilot747: Nice try. Read the whole damn post! Do you get it now?! It's an attempt to reduce the violence by reducing the amount of idiots who want t
124 Post contains images Lehpron : Toda, Reisinger Dude you really need to calm down, I didn't mean to get you all upset. I was not advocating the death of anyone, all I meant from that
125 Tbar220 : ADG, The United States has killed Afghani children in their war against terrorism. Israel has killed Palestinian children in their war against terrori
126 Twaneedsnohelp : Dude you really need to calm down, I Its easy for you to say that Lehpron, but when you are a citizen of a country half a billion people want destroye
127 EmiratesLover : Its easy for you to say that Lehpron, but when you are a citizen of a country half a billion people want destroyed, one becomes a bit sensitive as to
128 Twaneedsnohelp : Wrong wrong wrong EmiratesLover. Because the barely legitimate government of Anwar Sadat signed a peace treaty with Israel over 20 years ago in order
129 ADG : TWA, Peace will never be achieved whilst people like you remain unforgiving, intolerant and anti arab. The ME cannot achieve peace if you and others l
130 EmiratesLover : For the likes of TWAneedNOHELP, I can recommend a number of excellent books, including, Arabs and Israelis for beginners by Ron David The Birth of Isr
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