Sponsor Message:
Non Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Trouble In Palestine  
User currently offlineBushpilot From South Africa, joined Jul 2007, 0 posts, RR: 1
Posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 1432 times:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,236183,00.html
KHAN YOUNIS, Gaza Strip — Palestinian gunmen forced a Hamas commander to his knees and shot him to death early Wednesday outside the courthouse where he worked as an Islamic judge, escalating factional tensions in the Gaza Strip and prompting the Palestinian prime minister to cut short a trip abroad.

The death came two days after three young sons of a Fatah-allied Palestinian intelligence officer were killed in a drive-by shooting, sparking renewed conflict between the rival Hamas and Fatah factions. The violence has reduced chances for a unity government and pushed the two sides closer to civil war.

Palestinian security officials said the slain man was Bassam al-Fara, 30, a judge at the Islamic court and a Hamas commander who belongs to the largest clan in the town of Khan Younis.


It seems trouble is re-brewing between the two factions. Further evidence in my book that several middle eastern countries need to forget about destroying Israel and work to solve thier own problems first.

64 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMiamiair From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 1425 times:

Quoting Bushpilot (Thread starter):

Somehow, it will be found that Israel or the US is to blame for this.

Seriously, until they can settle their internal squables, the instability will keep spreading across the region.


User currently offlineBHXFAOTIPYYC From Portugal, joined Jun 2005, 1644 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 1425 times:

Quoting Bushpilot (Thread starter):
Palestinian gunmen forced a Hamas commander

Shouldn't that read "Fatah gunmen" as both Fatah and Hamas are Palestinian?

Quoting Bushpilot (Thread starter):
Further evidence in my book that several middle eastern countries need to forget about destroying Israel and work to solve thier own problems first.

Nope. Half of them need Israel to be the local bogeyman in order for them to redirect attention from their own domestic issues. Whilst a lot of people say that the Arabs should be left to resolve their own issues, the reality is that they never do. Iraq would still be occupying Kuwait, and they'd still be arguing on the exact wording of the text condemning Saddam etc.



Breakfast in BHX, lunch in FAO, dinner in TIP, baggage in YYC.
User currently offlineBushpilot From South Africa, joined Jul 2007, 0 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 1417 times:

Quoting BHXFAOTIPYYC (Reply 2):
Shouldn't that read "Fatah gunmen" as both Fatah and Hamas are Palestinian?

Probably, but that was were I copied and pasted an exerpt from the article. Its fox news, absolute facts arent always that important to them.

Quoting Miamiair (Reply 1):
Seriously, until they can settle their internal squables, the instability will keep spreading across the region.

I think this is true. If we could get off oil and just leave them to thier own devices great. Once again, our good friend the Saudis arent helping the situation much.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/12/13/saudi.sunnis/index.html

Quoting BHXFAOTIPYYC (Reply 2):
Whilst a lot of people say that the Arabs should be left to resolve their own issues, the reality is that they never do.

Interesting note, much of this does fall on western shoulders though. Our need for thier oil and thier need for our money make for interesting bed fellows.


User currently offlineBHXFAOTIPYYC From Portugal, joined Jun 2005, 1644 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 1415 times:

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 3):
Our need for thier oil

Regretably that's what it mostly comes down to.

I spent 8 yrs in the region and it's frustrating to watch, because there is a lot of individual talent and desire to do better (countries like Tunisia for example). Unfortunately they do not have the upper hand in all of this.



Breakfast in BHX, lunch in FAO, dinner in TIP, baggage in YYC.
User currently offlineQR332 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 1403 times:

Very, very sad that my fellow Palestinians keep digging their own grave deeper and deeper... instead of concentrating on what matters, i.e. ending Israeli occupation, they squabble like little schoolgirls. Its unbelievable how brutal things are getting; 3 children were killed this week, just because their father was a leader in Fateh. Disgusting.

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 3):
Interesting note, much of this does fall on western shoulders though. Our need for thier oil and thier need for our money make for interesting bed fellows.



Quoting Bushpilot (Thread starter):
Further evidence in my book that several middle eastern countries need to forget about destroying Israel and work to solve thier own problems first.

This involves no country other than Palestine, and most issues in Palestine are tied in with the Israeli occupation, including this one. One of the main causes of the instability is the fact that Gaza is being pretty much starved; because the West has cut off aid due to the Hamas government and because Israel refuses to hand in money to the Palestinians collected on their behalf, people in Gaza are pretty much starving and shit is really hitting the fan.

Quoting BHXFAOTIPYYC (Reply 2):
Whilst a lot of people say that the Arabs should be left to resolve their own issues, the reality is that they never do. Iraq would still be occupying Kuwait, and they'd still be arguing on the exact wording of the text condemning Saddam etc.

And we can all see how good the West is solving things in the Middle East, right? Just look at the democracy in Iraq and the peace in Palestine, and you'll get a good idea at just how well the West helps Arabs out. Never mind the fact that a lot of the trouble in the Middle East is because of over a century of Western intervention.

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 3):
Interesting note, much of this does fall on western shoulders though. Our need for thier oil and thier need for our money make for interesting bed fellows.

The only oil exporting country that has a lot of issues is Saudi Arabia, the US's best friend. All other oil-exporting countries have done many great things for themselves, such as Qatar, Kuwait, the UAE and Bahrain. As for Iraq, it is a unique case; it is where it is today again because of Western intervention. Without US backing, Saddam would have never stayed in power or entered the Iran-Iraq war, and arguably Iraq would be a very different place today. But, its much easier to say that its all our fault and ignore your own errors.


User currently offlineBushpilot From South Africa, joined Jul 2007, 0 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 1391 times:

Quoting QR332 (Reply 5):
This involves no country other than Palestine

So the influences from Syria, Iran, KSA, Lebanon and Egypt have nothing to do with this?

Quoting QR332 (Reply 5):
And we can all see how good the West is solving things in the Middle East, right?

OK, so imagine this, without western money, and arab oil, what does the middle east have? Poverty is already rampant, hunger is an issue. The west is trying to protect its interests, I certainly do not agree with many of the tactics involved, but what do you recommend?

Quoting QR332 (Reply 5):
Just look at the democracy in Iraq and the peace in Palestine

Both are a joke, good point.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 5):
The only oil exporting country that has a lot of issues is Saudi Arabia, the US's best friend.

This bothers me to no end. KSA represents the opposite of what this country is all about. If I were President, I would cut ties to them the day I was elected. Consequences be damned.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 5):
But, its much easier to say that its all our fault and ignore your own errors.

I just wrote that many of the events in the region fall on the shoulders of the west. I believe this. The practice of imperialism has been the most devastating idea in man kinds history.


User currently offlineCairo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 1380 times:

Quoting Miamiair (Reply 1):
until they can settle their internal squables, the instability will keep spreading across the region.

As long as THEY are the ones settling their squables (or not), fine, lets watch from a distance.

Quoting BHXFAOTIPYYC (Reply 2):
Iraq would still be occupying Kuwait

...and?

...this affects you how?

Lithuania, Latvia & Estonia were occupied for 50 years by the Soviets, while all the west did was to refuse to acknowledge this diplomatically. You'll note the world kept going, America and the rest of Europe continued to grow and prosper.

Quoting Miamiair (Reply 1):
Somehow, it will be found that Israel or the US is to blame for this.

It isn't about blame, it is about accepting responsibility for your actions.

Of course Israel has a role in anything that happens with the Palestinians, since the Palestinians became an identifiable refugee group with the magical creation of Israel in 1947. Without creating Israel there is no Palestinian problem, just as there are no native American issues without the creation of the US.

The billions of dollars all tax paying Americans send to Israel every year, deducted from their paychecks every week, makes them also culpable. The hundreds of UN resolutions condemning Israel for human rights abuses, which would have become sanctionable had they not been blocked in the security counciil by America acting alone, makes America a prime mover in all of this and an ultimate source of region-wide and Islamic-wide dislike.

So, yes, American actions in the Middle East creates American responsibility for some of the results in the Middle East. The fact that most Americans don't have a clue as to the extent of their government's meddlings in the ME plays right into the hands of those in US government who want you to believe the US is unfairly targeted, just sitting on the sidelines acting peacefully.

With all that said, yes, the Palestinians could take a lesson from ML King or M. Ghandi and learn the power of effective protests or non-violent media attention.

Cairo


User currently offlineRJpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 1369 times:

Quoting QR332 (Reply 5):
of concentrating on what matters, i.e. ending Israeli occupation, they squabble like little schoolgirls.

Israeli occupation of the Gaza Strip ended over a year ago; that is why there is so much squabbling in Gaza today. As many pundits have been saying for years, the Palestinians will need to fight a civil war between the moderates who truly want peace and the extremists who want to push Israel into the sea...


User currently offlineAndesSMF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 1363 times:

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 6):
Quoting QR332 (Reply 5):
But, its much easier to say that its all our fault and ignore your own errors.

I just wrote that many of the events in the region fall on the shoulders of the west. I believe this. The practice of imperialism has been the most devastating idea in man kinds history.



Quoting Cairo (Reply 7):

Regardless of what wrongs the West has done in the ME, the area still should take responsibility for their actions, instead of (rightfully or wrongly) blaming the West for their problems. Being a victim makes another party responsible for correcting the wrongs, instead of simply moving forward and saying 'damn the torpedoes.'

This is a similar dynamic that some individuals use to justify their lot in life. Some people and groups use the fact of having been the victim to just sit there and wait for others to improve their lives. Some people and groups simply don't let the past affect their current behavior.

A united Palestinian people would be a much stronger group to deal with than Palestinians infighting and giving others reason to believe they are not ready for additional responsibilities.


User currently offlineRJdxer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 1363 times:

Quoting QR332 (Reply 5):
And we can all see how good the West is solving things in the Middle East, right? Just look at the democracy in Iraq and the peace in Palestine, and you'll get a good idea at just how well the West helps Arabs out.

Which just goes to prove that you can't help an arab nation out. If you try they end up coming back to bite the hand that helped them.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 5):
Without US backing, Saddam would have never stayed in power or entered the Iran-Iraq war, and arguably Iraq would be a very different place today. But, its much easier to say that its all our fault and ignore your own errors.

Cue violins........He was in power without us. He was gassing Kurds without us. He was building a nuclear reactor without us. Yes Iraq would be a different place today, Saddam would still be in power and his sons would still be raping women and killing men at random.

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 6):
If I were President, I would cut ties to them the day I was elected. Consequences be damned.

Then thank goodness we know that you are not running.

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 6):
The practice of imperialism has been the most devastating idea in man kinds history.

Given the opportunity there are more than enough radical muslims that would spread their version of "imperialism" as fast as they could in the world today.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 7):
Quoting BHXFAOTIPYYC (Reply 2):
Iraq would still be occupying Kuwait


...and?

...this affects you how?

Think hard, it's black and gooey, and comes out of the ground.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 7):
Lithuania, Latvia & Estonia were occupied for 50 years by the Soviets,

Could you point out the common border the United States shares with any arab nation?

Quoting Cairo (Reply 7):
Of course Israel has a role in anything that happens with the Palestinians, since the Palestinians became an identifiable refugee group with the magical creation of Israel in 1947.

If the Palestinians, who never had a country before 1947, had aboded by the agreements who knows where they might be as a people and country today. Instead they chose the path of war and have paid dearly for it ever since.


User currently offlineCairo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 1354 times:

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 9):
Regardless of what wrongs the West has done in the ME, the area still should take responsibility for their actions, instead of (rightfully or wrongly) blaming the West for their problems.

I will go one step further and say that as in the life of the individual, each nation (or people) should accept responsibility for their problems whether or not they alone created them.

But, this cuts both ways: for instance, terrorism against America is not a problem created elsewhere, it is a problem created by America and its solution lies in changing what America does.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 9):
This is a similar dynamic that some individuals use to justify their lot in life. Some people and groups use the fact of having been the victim to just sit there and wait for others to improve their lives. Some people and groups simply don't let the past affect their current behavior.

Very very true, just be sure you apply it to American problems as well; which are, of course, all created by Americans.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 10):
Which just goes to prove that you can't help an arab nation out. If you try they end up coming back to bite the hand that helped them

Do you think then maybe you should stop trying to 'help an arab nation out'?

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 10):
Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 6):
If I were President, I would cut ties to them the day I was elected. Consequences be damned.

Then thank goodness we know that you are not running.

Part of having morals means you do things that are sometimes difficult or painful to further a higher moral principal.

If you always take the easier path, you simply have no morals.

KSA supports parts of the Iraqi 'insurgency', it marginalizes women, all the 9/11 hijackers had Saudi connections, and so on. The fact that KSA has by far the largest proven oil reserves in the world causes America to "overlook" the crimes of the Saudi regime - and this moral bankruptcy is a central pillar of anger towards America.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 10):
Think hard, it's black and gooey, and comes out of the ground

Kuwait's contribution to the oil supply of America is negligible to non-existent. Does knowing this change your answer as to how the Iraq invasion of Kuwait affects you?

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 10):
Could you point out the common border the United States shares with any arab nation?

Not sure of your point here? America occupies Iraq, parts of Afghanistan, and supports repressive regimes in Egypt, Israel, KSA, Jordan and elsewhere.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 10):
had aboded by the agreements

Hahahahahaha. American education and media work at its finest.

What agreements in the creation of Israel are the Arabs/Palestinians not abiding by?

Cairo


User currently offlineBushpilot From South Africa, joined Jul 2007, 0 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1340 times:

Quoting Cairo (Reply 7):
Without creating Israel there is no Palestinian problem, just as there are no native American issues without the creation of the US.

This brings up an interesting point. I am a native American. I live in the same historic region, eat the same foods, and practice subsistence much the same as my ancestors did for thousands of years.
I was not alive for the outright autrocities that occurred while taming the American west or Russian influence in Alaska. Horrible terrible things happened in the past. I still see everyday the systemic oppression that occurs on most minority populations. But there are ways to go about changing those. Strapping explosives to yourself and blowing apart a public bus isnt it.
The Israeli occupation is not right, and I believe the majority of Israelis and Palestinians would make major concessions to have a lasting peace, but it is the extremist minorities who are dictating policy, and violence all to often is quickest response.


User currently offlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5712 posts, RR: 18
Reply 13, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1337 times:

Quoting QR332 (Reply 5):
he fact that Gaza is being pretty much starved; because the West has cut off aid due to the Hamas government

Well you can't have it both ways. Elect terrorists into the government, burn down and loot western embassies and at the same time expect to be fed by them. Where's all that wonderful Muslim solidarity everzbody is talking about ALL the time? How come "brothers" in Tehran, Doha, Islamabad , Cairo or Ryiadh are not exactly falling over themselves to foot the bill for Palestinians?

Quoting Cairo (Reply 11):
maybe you should stop trying to 'help an arab nation out'?

It's much better if Hamas nutjobs kill Fatah nutjobs and vice versa than see these cowards blow themselves up in Israeli discos, cafes and buses.


User currently offlineCairo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1336 times:

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 12):
This brings up an interesting point. I am a native American. I live in the same historic region,

Are the acts of the Palestinians today so different from what the Native Americans were doing, for example here, during the time the west was conquered?


Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 12):
Strapping explosives to yourself and blowing apart a public bus isnt it.

It's easy to sit in well-fed America and proscribe how those that feel opressed should better them selves, but I agree with you. Just remember they've had decades of UN santions blocked by America, hundreds of UN resolutions against Israel, empty promisses for help from all manner of sources...yet these nonviolent avenues have produced little.

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 12):
but it is the extremist minorities who are dictating policy,

Probably true. Anytime a vast number of young single men are frustrated by no jobs, no future, and plenty of self-pity, you can expect turbulence.

Cairo


User currently offlineRJdxer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1324 times:

Quoting Cairo (Reply 11):
Do you think then maybe you should stop trying to 'help an arab nation out'?

I've been an advocate of that for a long time. Sometimes though you have to act to defend yourself.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 11):
Part of having morals means you do things that are sometimes difficult or painful to further a higher moral principal.

Part of leadership is realizing that you have to make difficult choices and relegating your country to economic disaster is not a good leadership choice.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 11):
KSA supports parts of the Iraqi 'insurgency',

Proof?

Quoting Cairo (Reply 11):
it marginalizes women,

A sad thing but it gosh the UN has wonderful ideas that the muslim world just keeps shooting down.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 11):
all the 9/11 hijackers had Saudi connections

Timothy McVeigh was an American and he killed more people per person than the 9/11 hijackers did, so what's your point?

Quoting Cairo (Reply 11):
and this moral bankruptcy is a central pillar of anger towards America.

Nice propaganda, the truth is that they want what we have or at least want to deny it to the very people they supposedly represent in the name of Allah.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 11):
Kuwait's contribution to the oil supply of America is negligible to non-existent. Does knowing this change your answer as to how the Iraq invasion of Kuwait affects you?

No since if that oil was not available or only available at black mail prices then the cost of all oil would go up.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 7):
Lithuania, Latvia & Estonia were occupied for 50 years by the Soviets, while all the west did was to refuse to acknowledge this diplomatically.

There was this little conference called Yalta, so many things were decided there, you should read up on it.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 11):
What agreements in the creation of Israel are the Arabs/Palestinians not abiding by?

How about the one where it says that Israel has a right to exist? Or the one that gave them (the Palestinians) the bigger piece of the pie and the better part of it as well. But for them it was all or nothing and so they have nothing and nobody but themselves to blame for it. When you have never had a country, such as the Palestinians in 1947, you should be grateful when someone hands you one without you so much as having to fire a shot.


User currently offlineBushpilot From South Africa, joined Jul 2007, 0 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1321 times:

Quoting Cairo (Reply 14):
Are the acts of the Palestinians today so different from what the Native Americans were doing, for example here, during the time the west was conquered?

My point in my earlier statement was that time heals wounds. Sure there are many times I feel systemically oppressed. But I cant go back and change history. My ancestors in AK, didnt really fight like in the lower 48. We have been for centuries and still now exploited through our resources, through our labor, through our lands, this still happens today on a very large scale. There comes a time where a forward looking individual, who has seen past wrongs, decides to wipe the slate clean and move forward for the betterment of thier society. I hope one can emerge in that region soon. Though I dont know of any on the horizon.
Cairo, tell me, what would be your solution to this problem. Given the parameters that Israel is not going away nor are they giving back Jerusalem. Under what circumstances could we have lasting peace?


User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 17, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1317 times:

Quoting Bushpilot (Thread starter):
between the two factions.

the term you use reveals something. You see, it is NOT "factions" it is two entirely opposite political parties who work in a kind of political agreement. Problems therefore cannot surprise anybody.


User currently offlineBushpilot From South Africa, joined Jul 2007, 0 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1307 times:

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 15):
Proof?

It is fairly well known that much of the support for the Sunni-Iraqis comes from KSA. Not necesarily the royal family, but it comes from KSA.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 15):
A sad thing but it gosh the UN has wonderful ideas that the muslim world just keeps shooting down.

So you support the US being bedfellows with a country who scoffs at the ideals of this country. It isnt only about women, it is about freedom of the press, no democracy, freedom of religion. Yet the US supports the Saudi royal family, makes it filthy stinking rich, while thier citizens have attacked this country. Our relationship with the KSA is the biggest farce and embarrasement to our country.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 15):
Timothy McVeigh was an American and he killed more people per person than the 9/11 hijackers did, so what's your point?

Your pointing out the problem right there. The complete and utterly stupid double standard we set for KSA. There are other places to buy oil, the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia is an axis of evil.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 17):
the term you use reveals something. You see, it is NOT "factions" it is two entirely opposite political parties who work in a kind of political agreement. Problems therefore cannot surprise anybody.

Mince my words all you want, but keep in mind that there are very few countries in the world where opposing political parties actively assasinate thier counterpart members. I have heard dirty names tossed around, I have seen punches thrown, but one murder does not justify another. The only people that suffer from this are the Palestinians. It is much more counterproductive to thier cause than resorting to terrorism.


User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 19, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1306 times:

Quoting Bushpilot (Thread starter):
Further evidence in my book that several middle eastern countries need

-
no, it is not evidence to anything. Neither "several Middle Eastern countries" nor Israel nor the USA nor Europe "need to" anything. Jumping to whatever conclusions leads to nowhere.
-

Quoting BHXFAOTIPYYC (Reply 2):
Shouldn't that read "Fatah gunmen" as both Fatah and Hamas are Palestinian?

FoxNews wants to have the emphasis on "Palestinian" and not something their audience may not understand. And I do NOT blame them. In media reports you have to report in a way which is understood by a broad public.
-

Quoting BHXFAOTIPYYC (Reply 4):
I spent 8 yrs in the region and it's frustrating to watch, because there is a lot of individual talent and desire to do better (countries like Tunisia for example). Unfortunately they do not have the upper hand in all of this.

as frustrating as problems in Palestine and Iraq and in some ways the KSA may be, most countries in the region DO desire to do better and really go ahead. It in fact is positive to see how most really DO GO forward in spite of some serious sh... in the region.
-

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 6):
This involves no country other than Palestine
--
So the influences from Syria, Iran, KSA, Lebanon and Egypt have nothing to do with this?

-
A) the matter at hand involves Palestine/Israel
B) Syria ? indirectly maybe
C) Iran ? even more indirectly than Syria
D) Lebanon ? NO, nothing
E) Egypt ? absolutely nothing
-
D) you may think of Hizbullah. But whenever Hizbullah and Hamas have a "Damascus-Tehran-connection" in common and are both on the fundamentalist right-wing of politics, Hizbullah is Shi'ite and in true reality has not really too much in mind about or for the Palestinians, Hamas is Sunni and has not much love for generally rather anti-Palestinian Shi'ites in Lebanon.
-
E) Egypt for years tried to mediate between the Palestinians and Israel. But as all mediators, also Egypt faced quite some problems in this endeavour.
-

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 6):

OK, so imagine this, without western money, and arab oil, what does the middle east have? Poverty is already rampant, hunger is an issue.

-
The Middle East has lots of assets. There are industries, there is the tourism business, agriculture. "poverty rampant" ? Far less than in the past. "Hunger an issue" ? where ? maybe in Iraq due to mis-management of the US leadership. True, the USA gives financial support to Egypt. But it is in a similar category for that 70 mio. nation as the support to Israel which is just a tenth of that size. So that, in a worst-case-scenario, Egypt would even manage to cope without. While Israel possibly would find it more difficult. Oil is a difficult thing, as it by exporting raw oil brings money but no real economic progress or economic activity. THAT is why Libya starts to lead oil to Alexandria into Egyptian refineries who then sell advanced products.
-

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 13):
solidarity everzbody is talking abou

Qatar, in the framework of Arab solidarity, has started to pay the salaries of all teachers in the Palestinian territories. Arab companies are trying to invest in the Gaza-Territory, but are not exactly supported by Israel, which in true reality still is the ruling power there. They have withdrawn troops and settlements but still pull the strings.
-


User currently offlineRJdxer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1306 times:

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 18):
It is fairly well known that much of the support for the Sunni-Iraqis comes from KSA.

P R O O F?

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 18):
Our relationship with the KSA is the biggest farce and embarrasement to our country.



Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 18):
are other places to buy oil,

So you support nation building by embargo? BTW do you happen know what would happen to the price of oil if we started following that idea? Great for you, you live in Alaska and would see a bigger check from the state every year.


User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 21, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1299 times:

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 20):
It is fairly well known that much of the support for the Sunni-Iraqis comes from KSA.
--
P R O O F?

-
he quite correctly wrote that "it is fairly WELL KNOWN". and that exactly means that there is no proof. To give you a hint. The leading tribe in the desert areas in Western Iraq are the Shammar. The Shammar are evident in neighbouring areas of the KSA, Jordan Iraq and even Syria. And one Shammar lady happened to have been one of the favourite wifes of "Ibn Sa'ud" (Abdul-Aziz bin Abdur-Rahman ..... al-Sa'ud), and the mother of Kings Sa'ud bin Abdul-Aziz as-Sa'ud, Faisal, Khaled, Fahd and Abdullah as well as of Crown Prince Sultan. The first state president in post-invasion Iraq just by sheer coincidence of course happened to be a Shammar Sheikh.
-


User currently offlineRJdxer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1298 times:

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 21):
and that exactly means that there is no proof.

Thank you

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 21):
by sheer coincidence of course happened to be a Shammar Sheikh.

And sometimes the simplest answer is the one that is correct in this case, sheer coincidence. It's not like they picked this guy off a camel somewhere, he's been active in Iraqi freedom movements for sometime.


User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 23, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1291 times:

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 22):
he's been active in Iraqi freedom movements for sometime.

correct is that he has been active in Iraqi Shammar representations for quite some time. No it of course was NOT a coincidence. It was tried to take the Iraqi Shammar into the pattern.
-
This btw. will explain the problems of intelligent Shi'ites in Iraq. They have a majority of people, BUT due to the desert area being population-wise dominated by Sunni tribes only a MINority of the area, and worst of all possibly not even the potentially oil-rich areas in the Southwest.
-


User currently offlineCairo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1289 times:

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 15):
How about the one where it says that Israel has a right to exist?

You said "agreement". There is NO agreement. The land was taken without any AGREEMENT from the Palestinians, the Arabs, or anyone.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 15):
I've been an advocate of that for a long time.

Good, this alone will solve most of YOUR problems in the ME.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 15):
How about the one where it says that Israel has a right to exist? Or the one that gave them (the Palestinians) the bigger piece of the pie and the better part of it as well

Agreement means both sides agree. No such agreement was produced.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 15):
When you have never had a country,

Here is a 1712 map, odd how it describes the region as Palestine, for a place that never existed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:1...59_map_Holy_Land_and_12_Tribes.jpg
The situation is very similar to if the UN came into south Arizona, took land, and created a homeland for the Aztecs or whomever lived there 3000 years ago...but you would of course have no problem with this since Arizona never had a country.

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 16):
Cairo, tell me, what would be your solution to this problem. Given the parameters that Israel is not going away nor are they giving back Jerusalem. Under what circumstances could we have lasting peace?

First and foremost, America must leave the Middle East entirely. If it is so concerned about Israel, it can garrison troops there, but it must end funding for Israel.

As for the Palestinian situation - ask the Palestinians what they want. But, basically, I think it is a 2 state solution with EQUITABLE distribution of land. Jerusalem is an almost impossible problem, but it could be managed by outside powers like Berlin was in the post WW2 environment.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 20):
P R O O F?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061208/..._on_re_mi_ea/iraq_insurgency_saudi

also see:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story...,,1971581,00.html?gusrc=rss&feed=1

Cairo


25 Dtwclipper : "Terra Sancta sive Palæstina exhibens non solum Regna vetera Iuda et Israel in suas XII Tribus distincta, sed etiam eorundem diversarum ætatum cond
26 Dougloid : Tis the sport to see the enginer Hoyst by his own petar-Will Shakespeare. When crips and bloods and vice lords and el rukns and small rascals and asi
27 Cairo : Do you just run around the internet jumping in anytime you think precious Israel might be verbally challenged? If you'd bother reading the post, you'
28 Dtwclipper : I read the post thank you. It points out: the Old Kingdoms of Judea and Israel but also the 12 Tribes, which you chose to ignore. No, just when one s
29 Cairo : I'm not sure I've seen an example here indicating this is true, but if you want to say you don't blindly defend Israel, I guess you can believe that.
30 RJdxer : So much for abiding by UN resolutions. If Palestinians couldn't abide by the first one which actually gave them a country, asking anyone to abide by
31 RJpieces : Most Americans are attached to Israel in one form or another. When George W Bush reads his Bible and then deals with Middle East foreign policy issue
32 Post contains links Cairo : Oh, I see. So, the UN gets to decide where new countries are created, contrary to the will of the people actually living there, and after that point
33 Cairo : RJ, I already know your religion and upbringing explain your love affair with Israel. I'm wondering what DTW's affiliation is, since my assumption th
34 RJpieces : And what difference does it make if he is Jewish or not? Anti-semites who can't stand the US-Israel relationship don't seem to understand that the ma
35 RJpieces : For example, look at Congress. The most pro-Israel leaders on Capitol Hill are just about all not Jewish.
36 RJdxer : At least you're finally able to admit the truth. It's not about the land, it's about the people occupying it. Yeah, that's kind of their job. To prev
37 Cairo : The answer to this question is of course obvious, but since you apparently need to hear it: Because one's religion makes one biased towards that reli
38 RJpieces : Oh you are so full of it as always, blaming the victim. That is like saying the Jews in Germany were to blame for what happened to them. This world c
39 Post contains links Cairo : You are grasping at straws and making up your "rules" as you go along. Once you learned tonight that the Palestinians never agreed to Israel and have
40 Jacobin777 : So if I'm against anything the Israeli Govt. does (no matter how illegal, immoral, etc.), I'm not part of the "righteous" and "no different than Nazi
41 Cairo : It isn't about blaming anyone, it is about accepting responsibility for your actions. People don't just pick on Israel because its Jewish, most Arabs
42 7474ever : Get your facts right. The UN agreed. Israel agreed. The arab countries didn't. And guess wich side didn't agree ? "We will never recognize Israel, an
43 AndesSMF : Well, was there ever an Israeli government you weren't against. This is quite the usual refrain, 'I am not against Israel, I am against the governmen
44 7474ever : You're plain wrong. Palestinians interviewed on TV always use the term "yahud" (jews) and not "israelis". My arabic is probably not as good as yours,
45 ME AVN FAN : wrong. King Abdullah bin Abdul-Aziz, then Crown Prince, is the author of his own peace-plan for Israel/Palestine which includes the full and definite
46 Post contains images QR332 : Israeli occupation never really ended - have you been living under a rock? Since they left, Israel has made life just as bad as when it was "occupyin
47 RJdxer : Well lets take a look at just whom is grasping at straws shall we? So lets be clear, I have been consistent since I entered the thread. You have clai
48 7474ever : Yes, it does. Stop playing with words. Well, that's the problem. You can't really make peace with someone who denies your right to exsist, can you ?
49 Dougloid : Your lack of knowledge about Native American society, law, and government is painfully obvious and likely derived from Western movies, the Lone Range
50 RJdxer : You mean like yours? How about if you spell out the difference instead of wasting bandwith making accusations with no facts to back them up?
51 Dougloid : I don't have to do a thing except point out the obvious-dude doesn't know a thing about Native American society, law and government, or else he would
52 Post contains links Bushpilot : First off this is utter BS. Sure the state of Alaska would make more revenue. But keep in mind that the price of those fuel products in rural Alaska
53 Cairo : No you have been inconsistent. First, you announced that if the Palestinians had "abided by the agreements" to create Israel, they might have been ha
54 Dougloid : The comparison between Palestinians and how you allege they've been historically treated and what information you think you've garnered in passing abo
55 Bushpilot : There are quite a few parralels between the struggle of the Palestinians and the Native Americans. One is the systemic taking of lands by imperial po
56 AndesSMF : But the history of the struggles over land in the Palestine/Israel area is much longer than those of Native Americans. And while the Native Americans
57 Bushpilot : Does that make what happened in either place any better? A few groups? The British, french, spanish, portugese, dutch all were dead set on taking par
58 AndesSMF : OK, I was only referring to the continental US, but you certainly proved the point. I have no disagreement with this. But once the Pandora's box is o
59 Bushpilot : Well the simple answer is to not have one group of people force thier will on another. But that is history and one cannot change that. Many native pe
60 RJdxer : I never said they had a hand in the agreements since I knew long before this thread ever errupted that they had no legal standing as country prior to
61 AndesSMF : Exactly my thoughts.
62 QR332 : I'm too tired to read over everything now, so i'm just going to reply to these two points: As I have already explained, it is because the term "Yahud"
63 Bushpilot : Tell me this, if starting tomorrow, the slate was wiped clean, and the fueding ended and forgiven. Could the Palestinians and Israelis occupy the sam
64 Cairo : RJDxer, I think we've exhausted the usefulness of talking at each other, so, best of luck to you. I don't think either side has a proud history since
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Micheal Jackson Stirring Trouble In Dubai posted Tue Nov 15 2005 20:00:59 by Emirates773ER
Don Cherry In Trouble In Canada For US Comments. posted Thu Apr 3 2003 01:09:32 by L-188
More Child Abuse In Palestine posted Mon Jul 15 2002 06:27:19 by Twaneedsnohelp
957 New Israeli Settlements In Palestine posted Tue May 28 2002 02:29:08 by Advancedkid
Lower League Football In Trouble In UK posted Sun Mar 24 2002 19:20:36 by Donder10
Anyone Have Trouble In Geometry? posted Sun Aug 27 2000 22:32:08 by Olympic A-340
Tonga Is In Trouble Due To Rioting posted Thu Nov 16 2006 10:34:50 by 777ER
Town's Top Cop In Trouble Over Wife's Nude Pics posted Thu Sep 14 2006 03:38:55 by IAH777
Appeasement: Why The US Is In Deep Trouble posted Wed Aug 23 2006 20:15:12 by Matt D
Trouble For Wearing British MI5 Shirt In America? posted Sat Jun 24 2006 10:48:54 by Delta767300ER