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Hirsi Ali On Why Muslims Deny The Holocaust  
User currently offlineRJpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2247 times:

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-ali16dec16,0,4520813.story

Excellent and interesting commentary by Hirsi Ali...Thoughts folks?

60 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAGM100 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 5407 posts, RR: 16
Reply 1, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2217 times:

When living in Israel , our next door neighbours (Shuleme & David) both had their arms tattooed with numbers. The tattoos were very crude and the numbers were not legible any longer. According to their accounts the tattoos were given to them when they arrived at the camp. Shuleme and David were fortunate to be strong enough at the time to be sent to forced labor camp instead of just killed. They of course ended up surviving the war , but in Davids case he was the only one from his entire family that did.

In my mind , the story of the holocaust is very real. My mother and Father (gentile) told us the stories that they had been told and it has always been a part of my life. WWII was a terrible time for all Europeans , and its lessons should never be forgotten. But know one can deny the Nazi ,efficiently operated systematic slaughter of the Jews. True may other ethnic groups were targeted as well, Gypsy's , Christians , but the Jews were defiantly prioritized.

This would be a good time for a official statement by the German government perhaps. I believe that Germany has moved passed this period of there history. Germany has become a society that IMO has joined the league of mankind and works towards the betterment of all people on earth. Their condemnation of the holocaust denial would certainly blunt this insane argument.



You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
User currently offlineUALPHLCS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2209 times:

While I agree with the sentiment of the author, I think he is wrong about the fundamental reason why Muslims deny the holocaust.

It has been expressed very eloquently by the author of a new book called "Among the Righteous" named Robert B. Satloff. His book is about the Arab Muslims in North Africa that helped Jews evade the Holocaust in WWII. He talks about the denial of some of the families who's parents or grand-parents aided Jews during World War II in defiance of the Nazis.

The reason is if Muslims agree with the premise of the Holocaust then the cede the "Moral High Ground" to the Jewish claim to the land of Palestine. The Holocaust gives Israel the right to exist. The Right of Israel to exist is so anathema to Muslims that they would rather deny the actions of genuine heroes among them.

That is the saddest indictment of the Islamic world.


User currently offlineQR332 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2193 times:

Hirsi Ali is a stupid bitch who'll say anything to make herself look more liberal and distance herself from a religion she hardly understands and constantly attacks.

First of all, based on the account of one woman with a very strong, clear bias, you can draw the conclusion that most of the Muslim world hasn't even heard of the holocaust! Please! Everyone knows what the holocaust was and most people sympathize wit the Jews.

Second of all: With great conviction, my half-sister cried: "It's a lie! Jews have a way of blinding people. They were not killed, gassed or massacred. But I pray to Allah that one day all the Jews in the world will be destroyed."

So Hirsi Ali's idiot of a sister is evidence of the entire Islamic world thinking in certain manner?

Thirdly, She was not saying anything new. As a child growing up in Saudi Arabia, I remember my teachers, my mom and our neighbors telling us practically on a daily basis that Jews are evil, the sworn enemies of Muslims, and that their only goal was to destroy Islam. We were never informed about the Holocaust.

Do you believe any Muslim is stupid enough to think Jews are out there only so they can destroy us? This, as well as not being informed about the holocaust, was bullshit. If her family raised her in this manner, it doesn't automatically extend to all other Muslim families.

And finally, Later, as a teenager in Kenya, when Saudi and other Persian Gulf philanthropy reached us, I remember that the building of mosques and donations to hospitals and the poor went hand in hand with the cursing of Jews. Jews were said to be responsible for the deaths of babies and for epidemics such as AIDS, and they were believed to be the cause of wars. They were greedy and would do absolutely anything to kill us Muslims. If we ever wanted to know peace and stability, and if we didn't want to be wiped out, we would have to destroy the Jews. For those of us who were not in a position to take up arms against them, it was enough for us to cup our hands, raise our eyes heavenward and pray to Allah to destroy them.

 rotfl  Priceless... and it doesn't surprise me that RJPieces was the one to post this bullshit and agree with it.

You know what? I think you, Ann Coutler and Hirsi Ali should all meet up and arrange a threesome. God knows you all need to get laid, and you guys are perfect for each other.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 2):
The reason is if Muslims agree with the premise of the Holocaust then the cede the "Moral High Ground" to the Jewish claim to the land of Palestine. The Holocaust gives Israel the right to exist. The Right of Israel to exist is so anathema to Muslims that they would rather deny the actions of genuine heroes among them.

a) The holocaust in no way justifies the State of Israel, it is an unrelated event and we Palestinians are in no way supposed to pay for the crimes of others, especially Westerners. If Europe couldn't keep Hitler in check, that was Europe's fault, and they should have taken care of the Jews - not thrown it upon us, and given our land away. The Holocaust in no way gives Israel a right to exist.

b) Muslims do not deny the holocaust. While some might, it is hardly something common in Muslim society, thats like saying "all Christian pastors are gay child molesters". It doesn't work that way.


User currently offlineWindshear From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 2330 posts, RR: 11
Reply 4, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2174 times:

Quoting QR332 (Reply 3):
Everyone knows

That is a very very bold statement by you, I have no idea how you can speak on behalf of the 1.3 Billion Muslims on the planet.

You grew up with good education and never had an empty stomach, surely you are not all Muslims.

I think it is much more baseless, that you constantly speak of a religion and Muslims as one mass, when really you are just telling us, what you feel and think.

Boaz.



"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
User currently offlineQR332 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2161 times:

Quoting Windshear (Reply 4):
That is a very very bold statement by you, I have no idea how you can speak on behalf of the 1.3 Billion Muslims on the planet.

Those who don't know, don't care. It is ridiculous to state that Muslims are intentionally not taught about the holocaust and that all of our problems are automatically blamed on the Jews. Why isn't there an outcry about the Armenian Massacre by the Turks not being taught in the West?

Quoting Windshear (Reply 4):
You grew up with good education and never had an empty stomach, surely you are not all Muslims.

So what? You have to be hungry and uneducated in order to understand things? Your statement somehow implies most Muslims are uneducated and hungry, which is simply not true. Furthermore, the fact that I am educated and well off does not change anything.

Quoting Windshear (Reply 4):
I think it is much more baseless, that you constantly speak of a religion and Muslims as one mass, when really you are just telling us, what you feel and think.

So what are you and your buddy who started this post doing then, Windshear? The title states "Hirsi Ali On Why Muslims Deny The Holocaust ". Is this not a generalization? And you really are not one to talk, you constantly generalize about Muslims and Palestinians, except the difference between me and you is that I AM a Muslim and a Palestinian while you know little about us.


User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 6, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2158 times:

I just have to ask: What did the jews do to the muslims in the first place?!

Im betting no one will come up with a straight-forward and correct anwser.

These people (the muslims), obviously, have been brainwashed.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineAGM100 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 5407 posts, RR: 16
Reply 7, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2158 times:

Quoting QR332 (Reply 3):
. If Europe couldn't keep Hitler in check, that was Europe's fault, and they should have taken care of the Jews - not thrown it upon us, and given our land away.

Land that 600,000 jews already lived in ? Land that at least you would agree had some ancient shared rights as "Jewish". The fact is that the "Palastinians" lost ! The Jews outsmarted you , and have built a stronger more advanced society. A society that can negotiate from a base of strength and legitimacy .. not just victimhood. True the holocuast forced the jews to inact taking back the land , and they have used it as motivation to fight for it. But they do not go around whinning about it, they took action and acheived their goals. Big differnece between the Palastinians and the Israelis.



You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
User currently offlineLowrider From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 3220 posts, RR: 10
Reply 8, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2150 times:

Quoting QR332 (Reply 3):
The Holocaust in no way gives Israel a right to exist.

Does Israel have the right to exist at all? If not by reason of the Holocaust, then what? To listen to certain people, the answer for your average Muslim would be, "no". If it should not exist in the ancestral homeland of the Jews, then where?



Proud OOTSK member
User currently offlineAsstChiefMark From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2147 times:

Quoting QR332 (Reply 3):
We were never informed about the Holocaust

OK. Let me get this straight. Because they weren't taught about the Holocaust as children means they can't acknowledge it now?

Mark


User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2132 times:

Quoting QR332 (Reply 3):
So Hirsi Ali's idiot of a sister is evidence of the entire Islamic world thinking in certain manner?

She can't think for the entire Arab World-nor can you, as you try, my friend. But the actions of the Arab/Muslim world over the last 50 years shows they don't CARE if the Jews were exterminated in great numbers, simply because many Arabs/Muslims are trying to, or at least advocating, the same thing in this day and age-by destroying the State of Israel.

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 9):
OK. Let me get this straight. Because they weren't taught about the Holocaust as children means they can't acknowledge it now?

Because to acknowledge it would mean the death of a mindset and a way of life passed down from generation to generation-blaming Israel and the U.S. for all their problems, and trying their damndest to destroy the Jewish State.


User currently offlineQR332 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 2108 times:

To clarify - everything in bold from my previous post is quoted from the article.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 6):
I just have to ask: What did the jews do to the muslims in the first place?!

Im betting no one will come up with a straight-forward and correct anwser.

These people (the muslims), obviously, have been brainwashed.

The real brainwashed people here are the ones who read an article and automatically look at it as if it were fact. Just because one person says it does not make it true.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 7):
Land that 600,000 jews already lived in ? Land that at least you would agree had some ancient shared rights as "Jewish". The fact is that the "Palastinians" lost ! The Jews outsmarted you , and have built a stronger more advanced society. A society that can negotiate from a base of strength and legitimacy .. not just victimhood. True the holocuast forced the jews to inact taking back the land , and they have used it as motivation to fight for it. But they do not go around whinning about it, they took action and acheived their goals. Big differnece between the Palastinians and the Israelis.

600,000 Jews? Most of them were immigrants who came into Palestine after the British promised them a homeland there, and when the holocaust happened everyone turned a blind eye to what was going on in Palestine, including the ethnic cleansing of 800,000 Palestinians, because they did not want to have to take on the burden of immigrant Jews themselves. The Palestinians are in no position to take action, they are either occupied, refugees or living in other countries as expatriates such as myself. And please don't tell me that we victimize ourself, especially when compared to the Jews, who seem to think that the holocaust gives them an excuse to mistreat others.

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 8):
Does Israel have the right to exist at all? If not by reason of the Holocaust, then what? To listen to certain people, the answer for your average Muslim would be, "no". If it should not exist in the ancestral homeland of the Jews, then where?

The ancestral homeland of the Jews, you forget, had a majority Palestinian Arab population in it at the time, and the fact that Jews dominated it 2,000 years ago does not justify uprooting this population. We did not expel the Jews then, and we did not commit the holocaust - why should we have paid? Do the Palestinians not have the right to live in peace? What gives Israel the right to exist when it cost an entire population their livelihood, and thousands their lives? I refuse to accept that the holocaust was a basis for the establishment of Israel, especially since we had nothing whatsoever to do with it. Of all people, it should have been Europeans and Americans who took Jews in, they should not have given them land that belonged to others.

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 9):
OK. Let me get this straight. Because they weren't taught about the Holocaust as children means they can't acknowledge it now?

If you read the article, you would have realized the bold parts are quoting it. I completely disagree with this view, and agree that it must be acknowledged as historical fact.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 10):
She can't think for the entire Arab World-nor can you, as you try, my friend. But the actions of the Arab/Muslim world over the last 50 years shows they don't CARE if the Jews were exterminated in great numbers, simply because many Arabs/Muslims are trying to, or at least advocating, the same thing in this day and age-by destroying the State of Israel.

Do you expect a Palestinian who was expelled and made to live in a refugee camp to care about whether Israel exists or not? All he/she would care about would be getting their livelihood back. If you were forced out of your home, you wouldn't exactly embrace those who took it over either.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 10):
Because to acknowledge it would mean the death of a mindset and a way of life passed down from generation to generation-blaming Israel and the U.S. for all their problems, and trying their damndest to destroy the Jewish State

Firstly, nobody blames everything on Israel and the US - we blame the things that are relevant to each of them on them. Secondly, the holocaust in no way changes anything - acknowledging the holocaust does not make Israel's crimes any less horrible.


User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 2094 times:

Why do we have to do this every 5 days? It will turn into a 100+ post thread with the same arguments over and over again with neither side willing to give an inch or offer a solution.......

User currently offlineSlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 68
Reply 13, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 2071 times:

Quoting QR332 (Reply 11):
Most of them were immigrants who came into Palestine after the British promised them a homeland there

Rather like when the British promised the Arabs a homeland on the Arabian peninsula which they then had to take away from the Turks 1914-1918.



Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 2054 times:

Quoting QR332 (Reply 11):
Do you expect a Palestinian who was expelled and made to live in a refugee camp to care about whether Israel exists or not? All he/she would care about would be getting their livelihood back. If you were forced out of your home, you wouldn't exactly embrace those who took it over either.

I rest my case.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 11):
Firstly, nobody blames everything on Israel and the US - we blame the things that are relevant to each of them on them.

Bull cookies. They Arab/Muslim world looks and searches for things to blame Israel and the U.S. for. They do it constantly, and without end, Amen. That's the game in the Arab world-drown out everything else by blaming the Israeli's and the Americans.


User currently offlineLowrider From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 3220 posts, RR: 10
Reply 15, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 2052 times:

Quoting QR332 (Reply 11):
The ancestral homeland of the Jews, you forget, had a majority Palestinian Arab population in it at the time, and the fact that Jews dominated it 2,000 years ago does not justify uprooting this population. We did not expel the Jews then, and we did not commit the holocaust - why should we have paid?

Bravo, you avoided that question neatly. Lets try again. Does Israel have the right to exist? If so, where? And let us not forget that "Palestine" is also an artificial construct, hammered out over a table after another war.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 11):
Do the Palestinians not have the right to live in peace?


Yes, and if you stop blowing people up that would help a lot.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 11):
What gives Israel the right to exist when it cost an entire population their livelihood, and thousands their lives? I refuse to accept that the holocaust was a basis for the establishment of Israel, especially since we had nothing whatsoever to do with it.

Again, there you are with dodging the question. If not the Holocaust, then what, if anything, gives Israel the right to exist? That leaves us ancestral claims, historical precedent, and the fact that no place in Europe was an attractive option at the time.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 11):
Of all people, it should have been Europeans and Americans who took Jews in, they should not have given them land that belonged to others.

Have you visited Skokie lately? The only reason "Palestine" belonged to the Palestinians at that time is because the British, Italians, and company said so. If the Turks had won, Palestine would be a distant, historical curiosity. I don't think you want to take the "we were here first" game too far back. Say, not beyond 70 AD.



Proud OOTSK member
User currently offlineCairo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 1979 times:

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 12):
Why do we have to do this every 5 days? It will turn into a 100+ post thread with the same arguments over and over again with neither side willing to give an inch or offer a solution.......

There are several solutions that are well known and might work- I think some of the key ingredients are:

  • Palestinians most convincingly admit the right of Israel to exist
  • Israel must withdraw to pre 1967 borders
  • Palestinians must renounce suicide bombing or terrorism of any kind, and be able to enforce this dogma among their people AS ISRAEL will renounce any military actions on civilian populations
  • Israel, the US, the EU and the Arab world should massively fund the Palestinians (education, housing, investment, etc...) until they are self-sufficient
  • a workable agreement on Jerusalem, perhaps enforced the way Berlin was in the post WW2 era

There are many conflicting impulses in the region, outisde interests fighting by proxy, and generations of emotional vendettas to eliminate.

But, neither party is willing to go far enough towards peace and I fully expect this matter to be decided in a final, catestrophic use of WMDs or other deadly war.

Long term peace is only a small possibility at this point.

Cairo


User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 1953 times:

Quoting Cairo (Reply 16):
Palestinians must renounce suicide bombing or terrorism of any kind, and be able to enforce this dogma among their people AS ISRAEL will renounce any military actions on civilian populations

Stop the former, and the latter doesn't happen, because there's no reason for it. On that point, the onus is squarly on the Palestinian/Arab side.


User currently offlineFumanchewd From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 1950 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 6):
I just have to ask: What did the jews do to the muslims in the first place?!

They denied that Mohammod was the prophet. Mohammod was courting the Jews to believe. There are documented hadiths which state that at one time moslems would pray to Jerusalem everyday. The Jews denied the truth of his prophesy and treated him relatively badly. He responded in kind by raiding Jewish convoys and changing the prayers to his homeland, Mecca.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 16):
Palestinians most convincingly admit the right of Israel to exist

Israel must withdraw to pre 1967 borders

I agree with you. I am cynical though. After all Israel annexed the land after an attack by its neighbors. Lastly, the withdrawel from Gaza has done nothing to reduce the fighting and attacks by both sides. I would love if the Israeli's would give the land back and the attacks against them would cease.

Sadly, this will not happen.

The most discouraging thing is to hear that moslems are being taught that jews are evil and that they must be destroyed. It isn't just this article stating this either. There are hundreds of sources discussing the antisemitic teachings of islamic societies. How can there be any sort of understanding or reconciliation if there is so much misinformation and prejudice?


User currently offlineQR332 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 1947 times:

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 13):
Rather like when the British promised the Arabs a homeland on the Arabian peninsula which they then had to take away from the Turks 1914-1918.

Really now? Please prove what you say, and show me evidence that the majority of Arabs in Palestine emigrated there in 1914-1918. Palestine has had a majority Arab population for over a century, and this is a fact.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 14):
I rest my case.

So what your saying is that if someone took your home, you'd just stand by and watch? Allow you things to be taken, watch your wife being raped, etc?

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 14):
Bull cookies. They Arab/Muslim world looks and searches for things to blame Israel and the U.S. for. They do it constantly, and without end, Amen. That's the game in the Arab world-drown out everything else by blaming the Israeli's and the Americans.

And you, being both Arab and Muslim, would really know this!

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 15):
Bravo, you avoided that question neatly. Lets try again. Does Israel have the right to exist? If so, where? And let us not forget that "Palestine" is also an artificial construct, hammered out over a table after another war.

No, because no state should be established the way Israel was. I will never accept the right of a state to exist which occupies my fellow countrymen, and one which has deprived Palestinians from living proper lives for 60 years. This has nothing to do with it being Jewish - it is all about what Israel has done since its independence.

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 15):
Yes, and if you stop blowing people up that would help a lot.

So it only counts as blowing people up when its a suicide bomber? But when its an F-16, Abrams or whatever it suddenly becomes fair game? Please, Lowrider, don't even go there, especially considering how much larger the civilian casualties are on the Palestinian side than the Israeli one.

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 15):
Again, there you are with dodging the question. If not the Holocaust, then what, if anything, gives Israel the right to exist? That leaves us ancestral claims, historical precedent, and the fact that no place in Europe was an attractive option at the time.

That really isn't my problem - they can go look for reasons themselves, but plenty of minority groups don't have their own countries, including the original inhabitants of your own country, the native Americans. Ancestral claims, historical precedent and them not having an attractive option in Europe to go to still does not justify what the Jews did, i.e. take over land that was not theres and expel the population.

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 15):
Have you visited Skokie lately? The only reason "Palestine" belonged to the Palestinians at that time is because the British, Italians, and company said so. If the Turks had won, Palestine would be a distant, historical curiosity. I don't think you want to take the "we were here first" game too far back. Say, not beyond 70 AD.

I don't give a shit who it officially belonged to, no matter who ruled it or how it was ruled, what matters is that there was an Arab majority, and it had been there for a long, long time. I don't care if the Mongols were ruling Palestine at the time, nothing justifies taking land away from a people simply because you were there 2,000 years ago. I wonder how much you would have enjoyed being one of those 800,000 refugees who were forced to leave their ancestral homes and live in refugee camps in other countries, lowrider.


User currently offlineWindshear From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 2330 posts, RR: 11
Reply 20, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 1901 times:

Quoting QR332 (Reply 19):
I don't give a shit who it officially belonged to, no matter who ruled it or how it was ruled, what matters is that there was an Arab majority, and it had been there for a long, long time.

Ok then, how do you explain the fact, that "Palestinians" have a hard time tracing their family roots further back than 100 years?

Fact was that Arabs moved in and out of "Palestine", there were no firm settlements of Arabs until about 100 years ago.

Another thing, since you declare Jerusalem to be holy to Islam, third after Mekka and Medina, yet do you know the decade for when it was declared holy?

Quoting QR332 (Reply 11):
And please don't tell me that we victimize ourself, especially when compared to the Jews, who seem to think that the holocaust gives them an excuse to mistreat others.

Jeez man listen to yourself  Yeah sure

Quoting QR332 (Reply 5):
Furthermore, the fact that I am educated and well off does not change anything.

Oh but it does! You have a nation just across the Gulf from you, where its population is poor, and where Holocaust denial is now a science.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 5):
So what? You have to be hungry and uneducated in order to understand things? Your statement somehow implies most Muslims are uneducated and hungry, which is simply not true.



I think you made yourself go all confused, and I also think that you over analyse my words. What I meant was, that you seem to mix your own views, with the views and personalities of all Muslims. So when you say that all Muslims know of the Holocaust, you might say this because you have heard about it in school, because you grew up in a progressive and wealthy Gulf state, while this is far from the same reality shared by the greater majority of the world's Muslims.

Boaz.



"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
User currently offlineMauriceB From Netherlands, joined Aug 2004, 2489 posts, RR: 25
Reply 21, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 1899 times:

I'm glad she ain't in the government of my country anymore...

she's so provocing...


User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 22, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 1897 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 6):
These people (the muslims), obviously, have been brainwashed.

THE Muslims ? There ARE Muslims who deny the Holocaust and be it just to have something more to oppose Israel. There ARE Muslims who simply do NOT know about it, as it was NOT well known in the Arab World, neither in Africa nor in Asia. But most Muslims simply know it and accept it as part of European history. BUT none accept it as a right of them against the Palestinians.
-
Just as QR332 correctly states, a good lot of her statements are exaggerated, personal and extremely emotional, not least based on Saudi Arabia and not middle-of-the-road countries. Somalia is a most extremely special case. And the statements about Kenya refer to SaudiArabian financed and managed premises. So that here narratives canNOT be taken too seriously, and in fact are wrong in most of the conclusions.
-

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 7):
But they do not go around whinning about it,

while they have now been "whining about" for more than half a century ! And have used it to advance their goals.
-

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 7):
they took action and acheived their goals. Big differnece between the Palastinians and the Israelis.

not much of a difference but an unbelievable likeness. The Palestinians, at least those in the "Diaspora" have "taken action" and are successful, as business owners, teachers, hotel and restaurant managers, in the transport and tourism business, in banking and insurance, and in trading, etc . So that Jews/Israelis and Palestinians in a way are most similar. Even if neither side loves to hear it !
-

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 9):
they can't acknowledge it now?

Most DO acknowledge it now, and in this Hirsi Ali is wrong and QR332 right
-


User currently offlineWindshear From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 2330 posts, RR: 11
Reply 23, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 1891 times:

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 22):
while they have now been "whining about" for more than half a century ! And have used it to advance their goals

That is a bit provocative way of putting it, care to elaborate on that?  scratchchin 

Boaz.



"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
User currently offlineQR332 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 1863 times:

Quoting Windshear (Reply 20):
Ok then, how do you explain the fact, that "Palestinians" have a hard time tracing their family roots further back than 100 years?

Lack of records? Prove it.

Quoting Windshear (Reply 20):
Fact was that Arabs moved in and out of "Palestine", there were no firm settlements of Arabs until about 100 years ago.

Prove that there was no proper Arab settlement further back than 100 years? So who was living in the area during the crusades then? You think cities like Jaffa, Haifa, Acre, Asqalan, Nablus, Jenin, Jerusalem, etc. were only properly settled a hundred years ago? The hundreds of villages were only settled a hundred years ago? You are delusional if you do.

And, for the sake of the argument, even if what you say is true, does it justify uprooting them?

Quoting Windshear (Reply 20):
Another thing, since you declare Jerusalem to be holy to Islam, third after Mekka and Medina, yet do you know the decade for when it was declared holy?

I can't give you an exact year but Jerusalem has been considered a holy city since the time of the prophet, and while someone stated above that Muslims started to pray towards Mecca because of the Jews, this had nothing to do with it. Mecca has always been considered Islam's holiest city, and Jerusalem is holy to Muslims because:
a) It is seen as the mother of modern religion, with the monotheistic faiths being centered around it.
b) Mohammed performed the Israa' wal Mi'raj there, a very significant event in Islam.
c) It is home to the Al Aqsa mosque, one of the holiest sites in Islam.

This isn't a debate about how holy Jerusalem is - it is about people like you attempting to justify the horrors of what happened to Palestinians.

Quoting Windshear (Reply 20):
Jeez man listen to yourself Yeah sure

What's wrong with what I said? One horrible event is used to justify another, this is fact. It is similar to Jews crying about anti-Semitism whenever anyone says anything you guys don't like.

Quoting Windshear (Reply 20):
Oh but it does! You have a nation just across the Gulf from you, where its population is poor, and where Holocaust denial is now a science.

So what? That does not mean the people there are uneducated.

Quoting Windshear (Reply 20):
I think you made yourself go all confused, and I also think that you over analyse my words. What I meant was, that you seem to mix your own views, with the views and personalities of all Muslims. So when you say that all Muslims know of the Holocaust, you might say this because you have heard about it in school, because you grew up in a progressive and wealthy Gulf state, while this is far from the same reality shared by the greater majority of the world's Muslims

How would you know, Windshear? Like I said, basing your opinion about Muslims around one idiotic Dutch-Somali lady is very dangerous.


25 Post contains links Pelican : Already done.Those idiots who deny the holocaust don't care about German condemnations of holocaust denial. It's even a crime in Germany to deny the
26 ME AVN FAN : may be, but it is simple. Jews used the holocaust in the 50ies and 60ies to appeal to the "conscience" of WWII time Europeans to get political suppor
27 Lowrider : And here we have arrived at the crux of the matter. "I want it and I don't care what anyone else wants, because my wants supersede everyone one elses
28 RJpieces : Comparing the Holocaust--the systematic murder of millions--to Palestinian displacement in 1948 is sick. Truly sick and has no rational place in our
29 Speedbird747BA : Are you saying Israel is unjustified? Thats true, but would you mind answering his question? Which is to say in the Arab world, everything. No ceremo
30 AGM100 : Thank you Pelican , I assumed the German governemnt had made some statement ... It just has not rcvd much coverage. Great ! Guess I should rethink th
31 Post contains links RJpieces : To be fair, not all Muslims are like QR and trying to minimize the significance of the Holocaust: http://www.jta.org/page_view_breakin....asp?intid=61
32 Stirling : And the world began when the Arabs arrived? Very selective memory there....and convenient to justify a flawed argument. If he lasts that long.....app
33 AGM100 : Wow this is great News ! Outstanding... they should be on headline news ! Good post Stirling ,until you dropped this ... US disengagement would bring
34 ME AVN FAN : you jump to weird conclusions. He simply referred to the fact that many people on earth lived in areas under the rule of outside powers and did NOT h
35 Lowrider : I don't recall commenting on those, care to cite a source? Not really. It is no secret that many muslims long for the destruction of Israel and the d
36 QR332 : So let me get this straight - me trying to explain how Palestinians suffered now suddenly means I want all Jews dead? Your logic is very goddamn flaw
37 Lowrider : Nope, never said I did, but I can read the public statements that some make and understand that some muslims want Israel destroyed. Are you saying th
38 Duff44 : I don't understand this whole damn thing, so I'll just sum it up like this. Put away the guns, bombs, rockets, grenades, and any other weapons you mig
39 Stirling : Did you actually read any of my post? Where in it did I endorse the enforcement of "2,000 year old claims"? Because if you did read it, and not just
40 Post contains images ME AVN FAN : The Israelis could "evaporate" to the USA, take over a slice of land in the Upper Rio Grande Valley and rename Eagle Pass into New-Jerusalem and othe
41 Baroque : Hirsi Ali is wrong in my experience, Muslims that I know do know the history of the second world war. The article is patent nonsense and the thread s
42 Cairo : PACs in America are one of several ways to solve this problem. The funding potential of the Arab/Muslim world could overwhelm the size of AIPAC and t
43 Baroque : Come on Cairo, only the acceptable parts of history are, well, er acceptable.
44 RJpieces : That is assuming that the US is pro-Israel BECAUSE of "funding potential", whch is of course utter nonsense. Most Congressmen don't receive pro-Israe
45 ME AVN FAN : the "funding potential" of course IS important, just as the pressurizing of politicians by lobby-groups. As most Arabs until very recently did NOT ha
46 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ...attention-seeking whore.. Thats what most people believe...even though 99.99% of the worlds Muslim population want to live normal lives and provid
47 Stirling : Abramoff. He was pure deep-fried evil. Didn't keep Congressman from lining up to get next to him. The very point of the issue is that America only kn
48 Lowrider : As a litmus test, would the wars have occured if Israel was a Muslim nation? No? Then where should I look for an accurate representation? If I look i
49 Cairo : It is hard to imagine a scenario whereby Europe, acting under the guise of the UN, would in 1947 create a home for Muslim refugees from war-torn Euro
50 N1120A : You know, I find it odd that you are using the commentary of the daughter of a Somali warlord who broke all kinds of laws on her way to the Netherlan
51 Lowrider : Nope, and neither does Bush. So if my personal reading is insuffcient, and the news is insufficient, where is the typical yankee to go for reliable u
52 Cairo : Personally, I just visit 3 or 4 different websites a few minutes each day and notice their different perspectives on Middle East news: CNN internatio
53 Lowrider : I am working on an English translation of the Qur'an. Its slow going. I figured the best way would be to start at the source. For personal reasons, I
54 Stirling : I believe it would. Depending on which element of Islam was in control. The followers of Islam have shown to the world that they are much more strict
55 RJpieces : You're dreaming if you think there are only 200-300 Muslim extremists out there...Heck, video footage of one rally burning American flags usually has
56 Baroque : Some great posts there from Jacobin777, Stirling and Cairo. In the long run, it is a great mistake to try to use cruel and unusual treatment by Hitle
57 ME AVN FAN : if I do so, I can read that Muslims are asked to be peaceful and friendly towards Jews and Christians if being approached peacefully and friendly. I
58 Wukka : Religion is stupid. Before you go slapping your cursor over the "Suggest Deletion" button, hear me out and re-read this thread. It's almost laughable.
59 ME AVN FAN : is atheism stupid ? it also is a belief. Is a computer stupid ? - Fact is that it is NOT religion "who" may be stupid, it always is people. Everythin
60 Post contains links Cairo : Thanks for your opinion, and, btw, I have never and will never hit the suggest deletion button. But, just as Northern Ireland is more than just Catho
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