First, if these Marines are found guilty, they deserve no mercy.
If they are found not guilty they deserve no further retribution.
Now, here's the drill . . . as we used to say in a previous life of mine:
I recall, vividly, many members here eviscerating these Marines on pure hearsay. No evidence, no proof, no nothing . . . they are guilty.
I also vividly recall a few members here detailing that these men would be investigated, and if probable cause would be found, the'd be charged. And after a trial, under the Uniform Code of Military Justice (of the US), the jury would have a verdict. Said trial and verdict equal to a US Federal Level trial.
What I'm laughing at - literally - is the number of members here that aired their instantaneous doubts that these men would ever even be investigated let alone charged . . . even after assurances by those of us that spent decades in the military that a proper investigation would ensue, and if warranted charges would be filed.
I'd be right interested to see the same number of posts in this thread as we saw in the other . . . . starting of course with apologies . . . desired but not necessary . . .
Laugh at US military justice if you want. I believe it makes US civil justice look like a rookie trying to 'keep up'.
Here's another tidbit for you . . . every time a member of the US military has been identified in a compromising situation during the Iraq or Afghan conflicts, they have been investigated . . . and if necessary, charged and tried. Much to the contrary early on prediction of many members here.
I know Military and Justice should never be used in the same sentence . . . an oxymoron of course . . . but I have to hope eventually, the naysayers that think the US military is simply a murderous horde will figure out, they've missed the boat . . .
Pacificjourney From New Zealand, joined Jul 2001, 2698 posts, RR: 9 Reply 1, posted (6 years 6 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 1063 times:
..... and that would be the sound of one hand clapping.
Your interest in such things is well known and your bias understandable. Just try for once to understand why others don't have the confidence in these matters that you do. Quite what the point of this post is I'm not sure.
If you want to blanket accuse people of being wrong previously at least make the effort to post their statements. Who, when, where were these things said.
Quoting ANCFlyer (Thread starter): every time a member of the US military has been identified in a compromising situation during the Iraq or Afghan conflicts, they have been investigated
"Everytime " ? What a ridiculous statement. How could you possibly know this to be true ? Just think about it please.
Skidmarks From UK - England, joined Dec 2004, 7121 posts, RR: 60 Reply 2, posted (6 years 6 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1046 times:
I'm afraid I have to agree with ANC on this one. The Military are notoriously anally retentive when it comes to this sort of thing, on both sides of the Atlantic. If there is any evidence of "foul play" for want of a better phrase, then they will investigate.
It makes doing the kind of job the troops in Iraq etc are doing very difiicult because any percieved misdemeanour is pounced on and minutely investigated.
I feel that many here are also biased against the military and are all to ready to condemn and derogate at every opportunity. Put yourself in the unenviable position the men and women find themselves in and then maybe you'll be able to formulate a more informed opinion.
Notwhithstanding that, may I take this opportunity to wish everyone, whether they agree or not, a very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.
Keesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 3, posted (6 years 6 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1042 times:
Seeing the cruel widespread murdering & blind violence going on in Iraq, I have no illusions on what is going on between all parties involved; Sunnis, Shiites, Americans, Kurts.
Knowing similar conflicts in the past, what was officialy confirmed at the time and became clear afterwards I think we all know in our hearts what is happening in police offices basements, paramilitairy HQ's, prisons, etc, where there are no cameras.
Bless all the victims we don't see / won't see..
We won't say we didn't know, couldn't have known.
A.net, dec 22, 2006.
BHMNONREV From Australia, joined Aug 2003, 1287 posts, RR: 4 Reply 4, posted (6 years 6 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1042 times:
Quoting Pacificjourney (Reply 1): Quoting ANCFlyer (Thread starter):
every time a member of the US military has been identified in a compromising situation during the Iraq or Afghan conflicts, they have been investigated
"Everytime " ? What a ridiculous statement. How could you possibly know this to be true ? Just think about it please.
Yes, everytime. You notice he used the word "identified", every service member "identified" of any wrongdoing has been investigated. For every one which is investigated, I'm sure there are hundreds, if not thousands which are not identified or investigated.
Quoting Skidmarks (Reply 2): It makes doing the kind of job the troops in Iraq etc are doing very difiicult because any percieved misdemeanour is pounced on and minutely investigated.
Pacificjourney From New Zealand, joined Jul 2001, 2698 posts, RR: 9 Reply 5, posted (6 years 6 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1037 times:
How could ANCflyer or you or me for that matter be privy to this info ?
If by 'identified" you mean a big story in the papers then your threshold of justice is depressingly low. How can he or you or me possibly know what other events have not made the light of day, it is a ridiculous claim to make.
777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 7, posted (6 years 6 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 1014 times:
I think it's clear that the vast majority in Western militaries abhor this kind of thing, and that it certainly seems that the military does a lot to try and combat it (or at least, prosecute those they catch).
The problem is that military screening can't necessarily weed out the criminal ones. If you accept that a certain percentage of the population is 'bad', then it's a surprise that crimes in the military as so low.
If you put people who are trained to kill into a stressful situation they're not trained for, then things will go wrong. Everyone, including the soldiers, were told the Iraq war would be a cake walk. It wasn't, and partly as a result of that, atrocities happened and probably will still happen.
With proper planning, multilateral support and saying from the start that this was a humanitarian mission to save the Iraqis from a murderous dictator, the soldiers would feel less unprepared, and there would be fewer problems.
As it is, the post-war had zero decent planning, the majority of the world derided the war, it was started based on a lie or criminally bad intelligence and there was zero understanding of the internal politics in Iraq, and how foreign nations would exploit what was going on in Iraq for their own benefits - leading to the mess we're in now.
NWOrientDC10 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1391 posts, RR: 4 Reply 9, posted (6 years 6 months 20 hours ago) and read 960 times:
Quoting 777236ER (Reply 7): I think it's clear that the vast majority in Western militaries abhor this kind of thing, and that it certainly seems that the military does a lot to try and combat it (or at least, prosecute those they catch).
The problem is that military screening can't necessarily weed out the criminal ones. If you accept that a certain percentage of the population is 'bad', then it's a surprise that crimes in the military as so low.
If you put people who are trained to kill into a stressful situation they're not trained for, then things will go wrong. Everyone, including the soldiers, were told the Iraq war would be a cake walk. It wasn't, and partly as a result of that, atrocities happened and probably will still happen.
With proper planning, multilateral support and saying from the start that this was a humanitarian mission to save the Iraqis from a murderous dictator, the soldiers would feel less unprepared, and there would be fewer problems.
As it is, the post-war had zero decent planning, the majority of the world derided the war, it was started based on a lie or criminally bad intelligence and there was zero understanding of the internal politics in Iraq, and how foreign nations would exploit what was going on in Iraq for their own benefits - leading to the mess we're in now.
Yes! I agree one hundred percent.
Quoting ANCFlyer (Thread starter): First, if these Marines are found guilty, they deserve no mercy.
If they are found not guilty they deserve no further retribution.
I have mixed feelings on this. First of all, a mental/psychological evaluation should be performed on all involved. Maybe, somewhere along the line, all, some, or at least one of those grunts had a mental breakdown. A person who is mentally ill is not necessarily responsible for his actions. Each individual Marine who was involved here should be evaluated seperately. My point here is this, if any are guilty of first degree murder, then punishment is warranted. Those who were/are mentally ill should be treated accordingly, not just "thrown in jail".
Quoting ANCFlyer (Thread starter): I also vividly recall a few members here detailing that these men would be investigated, and if probable cause would be found, the'd be charged. And after a trial, under the Uniform Code of Military Justice (of the US), the jury would have a verdict. Said trial and verdict equal to a US Federal Level trial.
I guess that's why you're here. Not everyone here has done military service
Quoting ANCFlyer (Thread starter): Laugh at US military justice if you want. I believe it makes US civil justice look like a rookie trying to 'keep up'.
Military justice is harsh to those found guilty. Even those found "not guilty" will find a "black mark" in their files.
Quoting ANCFlyer (Thread starter): Here's another tidbit for you . . . every time a member of the US military has been identified in a compromising situation during the Iraq or Afghan conflicts, they have been investigated . . . and if necessary, charged and tried. Much to the contrary early on prediction of many members here.
This is not published. Anyone who's "in the know" would realize this. Those who jump to conclusions must be treated with patience, I suppose. If they're really interested in knowing the facts then they could be educated, with patience, of course.
I'm not sure I see the point of your thread, ANC. Are you saying the Military Judicial System is to be commended for - well, basically for just doing it's job? It sounds like you're saying words to the effect of, "I told ya so" and, quite frankly my friend, that's beneath you.
Quoting ANCFlyer (Thread starter): Laugh at US military justice if you want. I believe it makes US civil justice look like a rookie trying to 'keep up'.
I have to disagree in this case. At the very least, I think you're comparing apples and oranges. But, for discussion sake, take this case and put it in a civilian setting in the United States and I strongly doubt you would see it taking over a year for charges to be levied. 24 people were allegedly murdered at the hands of 8 military personnel. Do you truly believe that, had 8 police officers been suspected of murdering 24 civilians in Anywhere, USA, it would take over a year for them to be charged?
ANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 12, posted (6 years 6 months 17 hours ago) and read 920 times:
Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 11): I'm not sure I see the point of your thread, ANC. Are you saying the Military Judicial System is to be commended for - well, basically for just doing it's job? It sounds like you're saying words to the effect of, "I told ya so" and, quite frankly my friend, that's beneath you.
I'm not commending the Military Justice system for doing their jobs, I had no doubt they would.
I am however pointing that out to those few here that were so positively sure these Marines would walk . . . .
Simply because we didn't execute the Marines instantly, doesn't mean they were dropped off the radar.
I guess you could interpret it as an "I told you so". Along with a update on the previous information, that these Marines have been charged and will go to Courts Martial.
Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 11): I have to disagree in this case. At the very least, I think you're comparing apples and oranges.
Point taken. Two entirely different systems however, and the folks working the case are at war. I'm not really surprised it took this long. Better to get a decent case, that can go to trial without being tossed out on a hundred different technicalities than one half-baked and hurried through the Art 32 process that gets dismissed day 1 because someone failed to cross the "T" and dot the "I", as happens quite frequently in the civil sustem.
That said, when CEO Freddie Dollarsigns screws up at General Widget Company and draws eight years in the big house, he's likely to get a nice cushy cell at some minimum security vacation spot . . . . surrounded by razor wire of course, but vacation spot nonetheless . . .
When Colonel Tommy Tormenter gets convicted of something less than a capital crime, comparable in scope to the above mentioned CEO Dollarsigns, he is STILL going to Leavenworth . . .
Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 11): Do you truly believe that, had 8 police officers been suspected of murdering 24 civilians in Anywhere, USA, it would take over a year for them to be charged?
Nope . . . it would have been days, probably a week at the most.
OHLHD From Finland, joined Dec 2004, 3962 posts, RR: 27 Reply 13, posted (6 years 6 months 16 hours ago) and read 903 times:
Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 10): Yes. The Uniform Code of Military Justice allows for the Death Penalty in many more instances than civilian courts. For instance, even for rape.
Thanks you!
I made a quick search myself now and found this article.
read between the lines. If we are picking up signals like these, look at past conflicts and the cruel ingredients available in Iraq (e.g total lack of respect for the the other party & everyone feeling/believing they are rightfully defending something against evils) we have to conclude human rights are being violated at a large scale by all involved like in most civil wars.
Hiding behind official sources is childish. They are a party in the conflict.
B747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 15, posted (6 years 5 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 828 times:
Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 11): Do you truly believe that, had 8 police officers been suspected of murdering 24 civilians in Anywhere, USA, it would take over a year for them to be charged?
One should not forget that the "victims" here were not civilians but rather suspected foreign national enemy combatants in a war zone. Big difference.
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And will not hear about either. At least there are websites dedicated to some of the victims.
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