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Was The "Pardon" The Right Thing To Do?  
User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 9 months 21 hours ago) and read 1896 times:

What do you all think? Did Ford do the right thing when he gave Nixon an unconditional pardon?

I do not believe there was any prearranged deal between Ford & Nixon, but was his own decision to end Watergate and move on.

It cost him the '76 election, but may have saved us from years of litigation.

49 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12110 posts, RR: 49
Reply 1, posted (7 years 9 months 21 hours ago) and read 1882 times:
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Quoting Dtwclipper (Thread starter):
What do you all think? Did Ford do the right thing when he gave Nixon an unconditional pardon?

I do not believe there was any prearranged deal between Ford & Nixon, but was his own decision to end Watergate and move on.

It cost him the '76 election, but may have saved us from years of litigation.

Could not agree more with you. YIKES!



You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39888 posts, RR: 74
Reply 2, posted (7 years 9 months 21 hours ago) and read 1879 times:

Pardoning Noxon was not the right thing to do but look at the bright side. It helped get Jimmy Carter elected which was a good thing.


Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineUALPHLCS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (7 years 9 months 20 hours ago) and read 1869 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 2):
Pardoning Noxon was not the right thing to do but look at the bright side. It helped get Jimmy Carter elected which was a good thing.

That's so short sighted.

Look, historians overwhelmingly agree that Ford did the right thing. He did it probably KNOWING it would cost him his political career. Hell, even Ted Kennedy who was beside himself in rage over the pardon then, has looked back and agreed that it was the right thing to do.

On the subject of Jimmy Carter, after Watergate and the Pardon, the Democrats could have run a chimp in a suit and won. So they ran Carter, who worsened the economy, destroyed the already fragile military, and reduced our standing in the world. Carter was perhaps the WORST man for the time.

Even if you look at it from a Democrat POV as I'm sure you will Superfly, Carter was SO bad that even with all of the good will Democrats OUGHT to have enjoyed from the Watergate era, in four short years people couldn't WAIT to get rid of him for Reagan. So I can't see, how electing Carter was a positive for Democrats.


User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12110 posts, RR: 49
Reply 4, posted (7 years 9 months 20 hours ago) and read 1862 times:
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Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 3):
Even if you look at it from a Democrat POV as I'm sure you will Superfly, Carter was SO bad that even with all of the good will Democrats OUGHT to have enjoyed from the Watergate era, in four short years people couldn't WAIT to get rid of him for Reagan. So I can't see, how electing Carter was a positive for Democrats.

I have to agree, I never thought Carter much of a President, though he really showed his true colors once out of the office.



You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (7 years 9 months 20 hours ago) and read 1861 times:

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 3):
four short years people couldn't WAIT to get rid of him for Reagan

What we often forget about the 1980 election, was the spoiler in the mix.

John Anderson who took 5,719,850 votes (6.6%) let the door open for Reagan.

Carter would not have been re-elected, but the mandate Reagan received would have been marginal.


User currently offlineMatt D From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 9502 posts, RR: 47
Reply 6, posted (7 years 9 months 20 hours ago) and read 1853 times:

What we often forget about the 1980 election, was the spoiler in the mix.

John Anderson who took 5,719,850 votes (6.6%) let the door open for Reagan.

Carter would not have been re-elected, but the mandate Reagan received would have been marginal.


*cough cough* 1992 *cough cough* 1992.

Same scenario there.

Had Ross Perot not ran and split the conservative/moderate vote, it's probably a safe bet that Bush Sr. would've won a second term and Bubba would've stayed in Arkansas. Just go to http://www.270towin and see for yourself. Add up the Bush votes and the Perot votes. The majority of votes were AGAINST Clinton.

Now granted, I know he still won the Electoral vote, which is all that matters (unless, of course the EV favors a Conservative Republican), but it would've been fascinating to see what the outcome would've been had Perot not been in the mix.


User currently offlineUALPHLCS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (7 years 9 months 20 hours ago) and read 1852 times:

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 5):
.

I totally disagree. Anderson was a Rockefeller Republican, for one. Secondly there was no race where Anderson bleed off support for Carter that cost him electoral votes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:ElectoralCollege1980-Large.png

Even if EVERY vote Anderson got went to Carter (and that IS A HUGE IF since Anderson was from the liberal wing of the Republican party) Carter would not have picked up a single state.

Your assertion is one of the great myths of the Democrat Party.


User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (7 years 9 months 20 hours ago) and read 1837 times:

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 7):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:ElectoralCollege1980-Large.png

What does this map show to support you theory?

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 7):
Your assertion is one of the great myths of the Democrat Party.

I never implied that there would have been a change in the outcome of the 1980 election.


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39888 posts, RR: 74
Reply 9, posted (7 years 9 months 20 hours ago) and read 1837 times:

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 7):
Secondly there was no race where Anderson bleed off support for Carter that cost him electoral votes.

Incorrect!
Ray-gun won Democratic states with pluralities such as New York, Wisconsin, Massachusetts, Pennsylvania just to name a few.
Also Jimmy Carter was blamed for inflation which was a problem before he he became president. If Ray-gun won the GOP nod in 1976 and was elected, he would have been a one-termer too.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineDvk From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 1058 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (7 years 9 months 19 hours ago) and read 1814 times:

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 3):
On the subject of Jimmy Carter

Carter barely beat Ford, and I don't think a chimp would have. Had Ford chosen not to run and Reagan gotten the '76 nomination, he might well have won, not carrying the pardon or any other Watergate baggage.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 3):
, destroyed the already fragile military, and reduced our standing in the world.

sounds a lot like the current President...



I'm not dumb. I just have a command of thoroughly useless information.
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20647 posts, RR: 62
Reply 11, posted (7 years 9 months 19 hours ago) and read 1800 times:

Quoting Dtwclipper (Thread starter):
Did Ford do the right thing when he gave Nixon an unconditional pardon?

Wow, 3 replies on-topic, 7 off-topic. Tsk, tsk.

Now to the question. Yes, the country was so polarized at that time, a full pardon was the only thing capable of allowing us to move on.

Even though he was berated for it at the time, Ford received the Kennedy Profile in Courage award a few decades later in recognition of how he acted.

I did not vote to elect Ford in '76, but that was more over the Oliver Sipple affair than anything else. Even though I didn't agree with Ford's politics, if it hadn't been for Sipple, I probably would have voted for him to say thank you for helping to heal the nation.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineUALPHLCS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (7 years 9 months 12 hours ago) and read 1751 times:

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 8):
What does this map show to support you theory?

The map shows the enormous Electoral college advantage Reagan had. It shows that Anderson's presence in the race did NOT affect Carter's electoral count.

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 8):
I never implied that there would have been a change in the outcome of the 1980 election.

No but you over-emphasized his affect.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 9):
Ray-gun won Democratic states with pluralities such as New York, Wisconsin, Massachusetts, Pennsylvania just to name a few.

It was well documented that this had more to do with Reagan's appeal to fiscal conservative Democrats, not to people who would have voted for Anderson. Again I remind you Anderson was from the liberal wing of the Republican party, a Rockefeller Republican. He appealed to the country club RINO voters. Therefore his positions could NOT have affected most Democrat voters, and would NOT have drawn "Reagan Democrats" away from Carter in Rust Belt states as you assert Superfly.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 9):
Also Jimmy Carter was blamed for inflation which was a problem before he he became president. If Ray-gun won the GOP nod in 1976 and was elected, he would have been a one-termer too.

Well that's a idea for Alternative History SciFi. In other words, who cares? We will never know and you can't prove it one way or the other. The only thing you CAN say is that the economy was a problem during the Ford Administration (Whip Inflation Now) and he was blamed for it, as Presidents typically are. Carter's policies did nothing to relieve the situation, and in some ways made it worse.

He squandered the Democrat advantage they had in the wake of Watergate and the Pardon. If I were a Democrat I'd call him one of the worst Presidents for the Democrat party. His Presidency was so bad it would be 12 years before another Democrat could win. IF Democrats looked at it objectively they'd have to agree.

Quoting Dvk (Reply 10):
Carter barely beat Ford, and I don't think a chimp would have

I know the numbers are relatively close. Carter didn't win a landslide. But I distinctly remember the MOOD of the country. I simply don't think a Republican could have won in 1976. But that's just a judgement call. Your right, by the numbers Carter eeked out a victory by 2%

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 11):

I think that's a bit harsh Aerowesty, in fact we are talking about the political aftermath of the Pardon. I don't see how that is off topic.


User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (7 years 9 months 12 hours ago) and read 1748 times:

I think Mr. Nixon should have served time for what he did to this nation, but looking back in retrospective, there's no doubt, for the sake of the nation, Mr. Ford absolutely did the right thing.

Had we had to go through a trial of President Nixon, it would have been an excruciating ordeal, and who's to say Nixon would not have tried to bring the whole government down with him?

Gerald Ford was pragmatic, and in this case, his pragmatism served the nation well.


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39888 posts, RR: 74
Reply 14, posted (7 years 9 months 12 hours ago) and read 1748 times:

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 12):
Therefore his positions could NOT have affected most Democrat voters, and would NOT have drawn "Reagan Democrats" away from Carter in Rust Belt states as you assert Superfly.

Look at the numbers.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20647 posts, RR: 62
Reply 15, posted (7 years 9 months 12 hours ago) and read 1742 times:

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 12):
I think that's a bit harsh Aerowesty, in fact we are talking about the political aftermath of the Pardon. I don't see how that is off topic.

Not harsh at all. I just came off a 3-day ban for being off-topic, while other posts stating the same thing in the same thread sat there for 28 hours without removal. The topic of this thread is was the pardon the right thing to do, not John Anderson or Ross Perot.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineUALPHLCS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (7 years 9 months 12 hours ago) and read 1735 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 14):
Look at the numbers.

I did, I have. Show me the numbers that show a liberal Republican bled enough votes from a liberal Democrat to affect the electoral out come.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 13):
Had we had to go through a trial of President Nixon, it would have been an excruciating ordeal, and who's to say Nixon would not have tried to bring the whole government down with him?

Gerald Ford was pragmatic, and in this case, his pragmatism served the nation well.

I agree.

Whats more is that historians, left and right, have come to that same conclusion whether they think Nixon ought to have served time or not. History will be far kinder to Gerald Ford than his contemporaries were. I think we are beginning to see that happening now. And on larger issues as well, I think history will look at the Ford Administration very well given the circumstances.


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39888 posts, RR: 74
Reply 17, posted (7 years 9 months 12 hours ago) and read 1728 times:

UALPHLCS:
Jimmy Carter was not liberal.
Ted Kennedy challenged President Carter for not being liberal enough.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 16):
Show me the numbers that show a liberal Republican bled enough votes from a liberal Democrat to affect the electoral out come.

http://www.uselectionatlas.org/RESULTS/national.php?f=0&year=1980

Move your mouse over the states I mentioned above.
Also I find it intersting how close it was in the Deep South in states like MS, AL, SC and a few others.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineGunsontheroof From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3506 posts, RR: 10
Reply 18, posted (7 years 9 months 12 hours ago) and read 1723 times:

Quoting Dtwclipper (Thread starter):
What do you all think? Did Ford do the right thing when he gave Nixon an unconditional pardon?

No. I think it set a dangerous precedent for how political corruption should be dealt with in the United States. Our public officials are not above the law, and when they break it, they should be subjected to the consequences just as any other citizen would be. Nobody would have pardoned Ken Lay on the grounds that his "shame" was payment enough for his missteps, so I don't see why Richard Nixon (or any of the other crooks in our political system for that matter) should have been treated any differently.



Next Flight: 9/17 BFI-BFI
User currently offlineUALPHLCS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (7 years 9 months 11 hours ago) and read 1717 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 17):
Move your mouse over the states I mentioned above.
Also I find it intersting how close it was in the Deep South in states like MS, AL, SC and a few others

Actually what you'll find in your stats is that John Anderson DID BEST in:

MA 15.15%, VT 14.90%, RI 14.38%, NH 12.94%, CT 12.22%.

http://www.uselectionatlas.org/RESUL...ts.php?year=1980&f=0&off=0&elect=0

Only ONE of those states is on the list of the tightest margin on victory.
Massachusetts. Which makes sense since Republicans in MA tend to be of the liberal wing.

So even your own numbers show that Anderson drained more away from Republicans afraid of Reagan's conservatism than he did from Democrats who would have voted for Carter. Anderson was a non-issue, and it is a myth that he any great affect on the outcome of the 1980 election.


User currently offlineAirCop From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (7 years 9 months 11 hours ago) and read 1716 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 11):
Yes, the country was so polarized at that time, a full pardon was the only thing capable of allowing us to move on.

 checkmark  Which the pardon served its purpose. It in end did we as Americans really want to put our president in prison, especially for a mickey mouse two bit offense, I think not. Out of office, and America moves on..


User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (7 years 9 months 11 hours ago) and read 1708 times:

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 12):
The map shows the enormous Electoral college advantage Reagan had. It shows that Anderson's presence in the race did NOT affect Carter's electoral count.

Right, but I was talking popular vote.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 12):
Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 8):
I never implied that there would have been a change in the outcome of the 1980 election.

No but you over-emphasized his affect.

Nope, never did.


User currently offlineUALPHLCS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (7 years 9 months 11 hours ago) and read 1700 times:

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 5):
What we often forget about the 1980 election, was the spoiler in the mix.

John Anderson who took 5,719,850 votes (6.6%) let the door open for Reagan.

This is what you said.

I don't see anyonther way of interpreting it, if Anderson opened the door for Reagan you are saying his presence got Reagan elected. The spoiler doesn't affect a winner!

I've shown that Anderson had absolutly NO affect. He had no affect on Carter's electoral count. He had negligable affect on Reagan's count so what's the point of even bringing him up?

At this point Aerowesty is right! Your entire line of reasoning is just a red herring from the point of this thread. The Politcal aftermath of the Ford Pardon of Nixon.


User currently offlineAndesSMF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (7 years 9 months 11 hours ago) and read 1698 times:

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 18):
No. I think it set a dangerous precedent for how political corruption should be dealt with in the United States. Our public officials are not above the law, and when they break it, they should be subjected to the consequences just as any other citizen would be.

Certainly an interesting perspective.

I don't think anyone can really know what would have happened to Nixon. His crime, IMHO, was not much. But his handling over the affair showed his true colors and allowed his enemies to rightfully crucify him.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 16):
History will be far kinder to Gerald Ford than his contemporaries were.

Always the case. Remember that Lincoln was a DESPISED president over the civil war.


User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (7 years 9 months 11 hours ago) and read 1694 times:

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 22):
I don't see anyonther way of interpreting it, if Anderson opened the door for Reagan you are saying his presence got Reagan elected. The spoiler doesn't affect a winner!

My point was that Reagan would not have had the Mandate the GOP claims, had Anderson not been in the mix.

I think you are wrong in your assumption that they would have been more inclined to vote for Reagan.

But, that is something that neither you nor I can say for certain.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 22):
I've shown that Anderson had absolutly NO affect

No, you have not shown anything that proves or discredits this.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 22):
He had negligable affect on Reagan's count so what's the point of even bringing him up?

I didn't bring Carter into the mix. That credit goes to Superfly!


25 UALPHLCS : Not as much as you have been lead to believe. Certainly in the beginning, he certainly was in danger of losing re-election, but taking Atlanta swung
26 Bushpilot : I was not alive to be there to live through those difficult times America was facing. I might have disagreed with myself at the time because I think c
27 AeroWesty : My only misgiving out of Ford's pardon was that Nixon was never forced to provide an explanation or excuse many felt he owed to those who supported h
28 Stretch 8 : Last night, CSPAN rebroadcast President Ford's October 1974 testimony before the House Judiciary Committee, wherein he explained his reasoning for the
29 AeroWesty : There were quite a lot of blood-thirsty Republicans too. He essentially ruined the GOP for a number of years, along with the careers of scores of tho
30 AirCop : Very true, alot of Republicans were forced out; although the Republicans were in position to gain control of Congress at that time anyways. If I reme
31 Post contains images JetBlueGuy2006 : Historians have said constantly said that he would always but the country before his own interest. He probably pardoned Nixon knowing that it would c
32 Post contains images AeroWesty : Oh wow, Pete McCloskey, famous for receiving the one delegate to the GOP convention who wasn't assigned to Nixon. California being California, we ele
33 AsstChiefMark : That's nothing. How many elections has Ralph Nader fucked up over the years? Mark
34 Post contains images Baroque : Interesting that this should still raise blood pressures after so many years. On the one hand you have those saying that dragging an ex President thro
35 UALPHLCS : Well said, Strech 8.
36 Dtwclipper : Oh yes, we can now all agree that Watergate was the work of "blood-thirsty Democrats"......revisionist history at its best. You guys really make me l
37 UALPHLCS : Get a life Dtwclipper. NO WHERE in Stretch 8's comment was there ANYTHING referring to Watergate as a Democrat generated problem. Who needs revisioni
38 Dtwclipper : I did read and coprehend, thank you very much. I'm still waiting for a viable explanation to "blood thirsty democrates"....you sure would get your kn
39 Post contains links UALPHLCS : I told you go look up what Democrats were saying at the time about the pardon. They were foaming at the mouth. http://www.time.com/time/magazine/arti
40 Dtwclipper : Nice articles, but I fail to see any blood lust there. "Democrats generally condemned it.....Critics, including many legal experts, charged that Ford
41 UALPHLCS : Wow you read that fast! Here is just a sampling: Thus, barely a month into his presidency, Gerald Ford found himself jeered by a crowd of pardon prote
42 Dtwclipper : I read that, but where does it give the political affiliation of said protesters? And to be honest, I suspected Blood Thirsty Dems was a reference to
43 Post contains images Superfly : SFSU, my Alma mater.
44 Baroque : Oh we do, we do (read fast). I don't see any calls there to string any of Old Nick, Ford or his henchmen up from a tree, let alone introduce them to
45 Post contains images UALPHLCS : Yeah right. In country that was predominately registered Democrat I think your right those protesters must have been Republicans.
46 Dtwclipper : I think what you fail to realize, is that Watergate crossed all political lines. There were people on all sides of the political landscape who were a
47 UALPHLCS : I know that Watergate crossed political lines. I also see that both you and Baroque, apparently fail to understand the use of metaphor. No where in S
48 Post contains images Dtwclipper : You're right, I went to all those Eastern Liberal Elitist Schools!!!! Anywho...I'm done here, have a good New Years!
49 Baroque : Quite simple, if we did not note that the terms you used were not present in the texts, then you would claim we had agreed that they were there. I do
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