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Why Execution?  
User currently offlineEZEIZA From Argentina, joined Aug 2004, 4968 posts, RR: 25
Posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 3270 times:

So Saddam is dead. Good or bad, he is now gone for good. But was there really a need to execute him? What was the point? Was it not better to at least wait and have an international tribunal make a decision and most of all keep him locked up for life? The risks of this guy becoming a martyr are too big. Am I the only one thinking this? I just have a bad feeling about this ....

regards


Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
156 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAsstChiefMark From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 3260 times:

He was sentenced to death. How else could the sentence be carried out? Handing him a pistol and telling him to kill himself wouldn't be a smart thing to do.

Mark


User currently offlineJpetekYXMD80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 4391 posts, RR: 26
Reply 2, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 3260 times:

Quoting EZEIZA (Thread starter):
The risks of this guy becoming a martyr are too big. Am I the only one thinking this? I just have a bad feeling about this ....

I don't think that is a very large risk. His bases of supporters are limited at best. It certainly would be hard to make a case for him to be a martyr of Islam, as it is seen by many that Saddam is the reason Iraq did not become an Islamic state.



The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
User currently offlineJetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7438 posts, RR: 50
Reply 3, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 3244 times:
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Quoting EZEIZA (Thread starter):
But was there really a need to execute him? What was the point?

Well, i'm surprised it was this quick. In the US, there would have been years of appeals and other roadblocks here. He's finally gone, and he desrved to go. The cost of keeping him alive was to nice. He wanted to go down as a martyr, i'm glad we were able to give him that. Who says America isn't the "Land of Opportunity"?



Made from jets!
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21864 posts, RR: 55
Reply 4, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3244 times:

Quoting EZEIZA (Thread starter):
Was it not better to at least wait and have an international tribunal make a decision and most of all keep him locked up for life?

An international ruling wasn't necessary. But what would have been nice was an Iraqi trial that did not resemble a circus.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineEZEIZA From Argentina, joined Aug 2004, 4968 posts, RR: 25
Reply 5, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3234 times:

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 1):
He was sentenced to death. How else could the sentence be carried out?

he was senteced to death? really? come on ...
what I'm saying is that he could have been senteced to life in prison. He'll suffer more, no TV circus around this, and no risks. By killing him it's kind of eye for an eye.

Quoting Mir (Reply 4):
An international ruling wasn't necessary

But it would have at least felt better. Comparing to recent trials, the trial on Milosevic seemed more transparent than this one.



Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21864 posts, RR: 55
Reply 6, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3217 times:

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 5):
But it would have at least felt better.

But it would have been irrelevant. Saddam's crimes were committed against Iraqis, and thus it was a purely internal affair.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 5):
Comparing to recent trials, the trial on Milosevic seemed more transparent than this one.

Now we're getting into quality of the trial, and as I said before, the trial Saddam got was hardly ideal regardless of the outcome. There is no doubt that a trial in The Hague or in the US would have been run much better, but I don't believe it is the duty of an international court to rule on an internal case unless the country refers the case to that court. What was needed was an orderly trial by the Iraqi judicial system.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineOV735 From Estonia, joined Jan 2004, 920 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3207 times:

The whole trial seemed like a joke or a bad theatre show if you ask me, but since he was sentenced to death I presume execution is the only way of taking care of that.

And even the execution looked like a joke too - masked men in casual clothes acting as executioners. Like an amateur shoplifting or something.

The biggest problem I see is that some of the Bush-followers will now sigh - Saddam's dead, the world's OK again - while a whole country in the Middle East is blown into bits and pieces, deep in civil war that even the numerous foreign armed forces cannot suffocate.

I'd say the current situation is breeding hundreds of little Saddams who will raise to power in the next few decades and have to be dealt with by our children.

Cheers,
OV735


User currently offlineEZEIZA From Argentina, joined Aug 2004, 4968 posts, RR: 25
Reply 8, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3207 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 6):
Saddam's crimes were committed against Iraqis, and thus it was a purely internal affair.

I am not an expert on Intl law, so I am just assuming and asking here, but again taking Milosevic as an example, that too was more or less internal, as it was a Yugoslavian civil war?
Regardless of this, can a country, in this case Iraq, ask in any way for a trial to take place in The Hague for whatever reason? I'm asking this based on the fact that in this particular case, an Iraqi tribunal will probably not be fair in their decision. They are sentencing the person thhat has ruled them for decades with an iron fist, so sentiments (for or against him) are obviously big, especially considering that the time frame between the start of the war and his execution has been very small.



Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31712 posts, RR: 56
Reply 9, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 3176 times:

Quoting OV735 (Reply 7):
And even the execution looked like a joke too - masked men in casual clothes acting as executioners. Like an amateur shoplifting or something

True.Saddam looked determined there too.Were there pics telecast post Execution on the media.
Amazing fall of a Dictator.

regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineAlaskaqantas From New Zealand, joined Dec 2005, 906 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 3175 times:

I do think that it is good that he is gone, but I will say what I have said in other posts because its what I believe:

Is it right to kill him when he did what he did beacuse he believed it was right? (hitler also believed what he did was right). Yet here we are (USA) killing more people then Saddam ever did because its what "we" believe is right. Yet nothing happens to any one giving out these orders here in the USA... is it just me or does this seem messed up in some way or another.

I trully do hope that every soldier over seas makes it back safe, but I also hope that the innocent men, women and childern in Iraq live through this as well.

sorry if you have already read that from me, but I believe that it is a messed up one-sided "world."
~Cheers-
~~Kyle H.



to some people the sky is the limit, to aviation enthusiasts, its home!
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31712 posts, RR: 56
Reply 11, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 3170 times:

Quoting Alaskaqantas (Reply 10):
Is it right to kill him when he did what he did beacuse he believed it was right? (hitler also believed what he did was right). Yet here we are (USA) killing more people then Saddam ever did because its what "we" believe is right. Yet nothing happens to any one giving out these orders here in the USA... is it just me or does this seem messed up in some way or another.

Isn't it that the Victor decides the fate of the Defeated.Thats hard reality.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineEZEIZA From Argentina, joined Aug 2004, 4968 posts, RR: 25
Reply 12, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3109 times:

Quoting Alaskaqantas (Reply 10):
Alaskaqantas From New Zealand, joined Dec 2005, 635 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted Sat Dec 30 2006 11:49:37 UTC+1 (5 hours 18 minutes 58 secs ago) and read 63 times:

Kyle, good post, but as you know, history is written by the winners. Saddam was evil so he should be punished, but xxxxx or xxxxx should not because they are not evil, they are fighting for freedom  Yeah sure



Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
User currently offlineUH60FtRucker From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 3083 times:

Quoting Alaskaqantas (Reply 10):
Yet here we are (USA) killing more people then Saddam ever did because its what "we" believe is right. Yet nothing happens to any one giving out these orders here in the USA... is it just me or does this seem messed up in some way or another.

You know... I really take offense to this. The suggestion that American soldiers are killing more people than Saddam's regime is total horse shit.

And when I read this, it really makes me wonder what is being reported back home. Do you guys even know what the typical missions are like? What our objectives are? Or how we're combating the enemy?

If you look at who is responsible for killing innocent Iraqis... it's Muslims. Whether Iraqis or foreign fighters. And typically our missions are policing the cities, with the attempt to PREVENT the deaths of innocent people.

Let me repeat that - we put our lives in danger in order to step between Muslims killing Muslims. And it baffles me how people continually fail to grasp the concept of who is responsible for the needless killing in Iraq.

So the suggestion that my buddies and I are responsible for hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis is insulting, and completely ignorant of reality.  crazy 

Quoting EZEIZA (Thread starter):
But was there really a need to execute him?

I have question for those opposed to the death penalty... what's the difference between a rope around his neck, or a 2,000lbs bomb dropped on his head?

Dead is dead. The method is usually just semantics.

So if he had been killed in an air strike, he would have been an enemy combatant. To me the execution was just another extension of the overall war.

-UH60


User currently offlineSlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 68
Reply 14, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 3067 times:

Quoting Alaskaqantas (Reply 10):
Is it right to kill him when he did what he did beacuse he believed it was right?

Are you proposing that "I believe what I did was right!" become a get-out-of-jail-free card?

Let me set you straight.

Human beings are incable of doing bad things on a regular basis.

All criminals, all psychopaths, all sociopaths have a view of the world that makes what they did the "right" thing to do.

True for Saddam.
True for Ted Bundy (sluts're just asking for it)
True for Hitler (Jews ruin Europe)
True for the Tutsi-Hutu genocide.
True for Pol Pot

That they believe in what they are doing is NOT an excuse for it. It, in fact, makes them even more of a threat to civilization, not less.

Get your mind around this: Killing them is not (or should not be) revenge but the cutting out of a cancer.

Some cancers like Saddam or Hitler are dangerous alive. There is this myth of "martyrdom" that people use to claim they are more dangerous dead but history does not bear this out. Alive such people can rally supporters and people die trying to keep them imprisoned. Wars can be started over living figureheads. Nobody starts wars over dead guys. In Iraq there may be a few days of increased violence on excuse of this hanging, but the real motivation behind the insurgency is that its leaders want to become the new Saddam Husseins. They are GLAD he is dead - one more obstacle out of their way.

So don't ADD their death to the list of wrongs done. SUBTRACT the deaths prevented. This is not a popular idea because we cannot easily predict how many people a living Saddam and his former cadre might have killed but common sense tells you it is true.



Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
User currently offlineAAFLT1871 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 2333 posts, RR: 10
Reply 15, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 3051 times:

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 1):
How else could the sentence be carried out?

I was hoping for a old fashioned stoning

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 3):
In the US, there would have been years of appeals and other roadblocks here.

Yeah Texas is not even this fast

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 5):
By killing him it's kind of eye for an eye.

I like this type of justice.



Where did everybody go?
User currently offlineTACAA320 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 3028 times:

Universal Declaration of Human Rights
Preamble

Whereas recognition of the inherent dignity and of the equal and inalienable rights of all members of the human family is the foundation of freedom, justice and peace in the world,

Whereas disregard and contempt for human rights have resulted in barbarous acts which have outraged the conscience of mankind, and the advent of a world in which human beings shall enjoy freedom of speech and belief and freedom from fear and want has been proclaimed as the highest aspiration of the common people,

Whereas it is essential, if man is not to be compelled to have recourse, as a last resort, to rebellion against tyranny and oppression, that human rights should be protected by the rule of law,

Whereas it is essential to promote the development of friendly relations between nations,

Whereas the peoples of the United Nations have in the Charter reaffirmed their faith in fundamental human rights, in the dignity and worth of the human person and in the equal rights of men and women and have determined to promote social progress and better standards of life in larger freedom,

Whereas Member States have pledged themselves to achieve, in cooperation with the United Nations, the promotion of universal respect for and observance of human rights and fundamental freedoms,

Whereas a common understanding of these rights and freedoms is of the greatest importance for the full realization of this pledge,

Now, therefore,

The General Assembly,

Proclaims this Universal Declaration of Human Rights as a common standard of achievement for all peoples and all nations, to the end that every individual and every organ of society, keeping this Declaration constantly in mind, shall strive by teaching and education to promote respect for these rights and freedoms and by progressive measures, national and international, to secure their universal and effective recognition and observance, both among the peoples of Member States themselves and among the peoples of territories under their jurisdiction.
Article 1

All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Article 2

Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status.

Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.
Article 3

Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.
Article 4

No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.
Article 5

No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment. ...

http://www.unhchr.ch/udhr/lang/eng.htm


User currently offlineSSTsomeday From Canada, joined Oct 2006, 1276 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 3017 times:

Although Saddam was a pariah and murdered millions, I believe that executing him makes his legacy even more horrible, because it suggests that Iraqi civilization is not evolving or learning from his barbarianism. He should certainly be imprisoned for life, and probably by a host nation so that if things in Iraq go "South," there would be no chance of his return to power.

I think that to claim being "the good guys," a civilization has to be better than "the bad guys."

In that regard we have to be more civilized, compassionate, merciful. We have to set an example of a civilization that values life. There is something non-sensical or insane about the position: "Killing others is so bad, that if you do it, we are going to kill you." Also, in keeping with my "litmus test" of what makes us "the good guys," and a civilized society, I believe that a court sentence should reflect punishment, and ideally, rehabilitation, but not "revenge." And it should not be for political reasons.

If one follows the course of Saddam's life, he was born into an extremely violent and dysfunctional family and society, so he grew up to become a thug, and then a professional hit-man. In his childhood he was psychologically raped, in my view, and a product of his environment. He was a "malignant narcissist," which in my view is a diagnosis of insanity. I don't know to what extent such a condition is genetically pre-conceived or environmental. Either way, those influences are out of a person's control. So whereas he should go to prison for life, to execute him suggests that the dysfunctional Iraqi society that spawned him bears no responsibility for his evolution. Which is arrogant and false.

This is not a religious position I am taking, but one of logic. My interest in the value of human life extends to education, the environment, the elderly, health care, minorities, etc. I believe that we have one leg truly stuck in the dark ages with the death penalty still part of a so-called civilized society. Human life must not be expendable, it must not take a second seat to politics, ideology, religion, etc. The fanatics who blow themselves up while taking out as many civilians as possible are "insane," in my view, and the proof is that they put an idea or ideology ahead of human life, including their own, so ahead of the instinct of "self preservation." We must not base civilized society on the same standard, otherwise we are doomed to more war and eventually our own destruction.

The most moving image I saw of the first Gulf war (which speaks to my basic presmise of needing to be better than "the bad guys,) was when a number of Iraqi soldiers came out of holes in the ground in the desert, to give themselves up to American forces. They crawled up on their knees, terrified, supplicant, begging to not be summarily executed. That is what they expected, because that is what THEY would have done had the situation been reversed. But they were disarmed, checked for their immediate health, sheltered under large canopies, and fed. This is the EXAMPLE civilized society must project, I would suggest, so that the cycle is not continued.

In the latest Iraq war, we see a much different paradigm emerging, with the revelations of abuse in American prisons, prisoners being held in Guantanamo to avoid due process of the law, secret CIA prisons off of American soil, prisoners being handed to foreign authority and turnng a blind eye so they can be tortured by non-Americans. I don't know the extent of these allegations, but if even SOME of it is true, then I fear for our own society, our values, our direction, our example, our moral authority.

These are dark times.



I come in peace
User currently offlineAa757first From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3350 posts, RR: 7
Reply 18, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2970 times:

Quoting Alaskaqantas (Reply 10):
Is it right to kill him when he did what he did beacuse (sic) he believed it was right?

 rotfl 

So, basically, there should be no laws at all, right?

It's alright to rape kids, because the rapist is in love with them?
Is it okay to murder blacks, because they are destroying the world?
Beating up prostitutes until they can barely walk is acceptable if you're just doing it to release your anger on someone unimportant?
I guess dealing heroin to fifteen year olds is okay if you can't find a job anywhere else, right?

AAndrew


User currently offlineJpetekYXMD80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 4391 posts, RR: 26
Reply 19, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2958 times:

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 18):


Quoting Alaskaqantas (Reply 10):
Is it right to kill him when he did what he did beacuse (sic) he believed it was right?

rotfl

So, basically, there should be no laws at all, right?

It's alright to rape kids, because the rapist is in love with them?
Is it okay to murder blacks, because they are destroying the world?
Beating up prostitutes until they can barely walk is acceptable if you're just doing it to release your anger on someone unimportant?
I guess dealing heroin to fifteen year olds is okay if you can't find a job anywhere else, right?

 checkmark  Yep.

The 'he thought it was right' logic is totally laughable. Makes no sense, at all, period.



The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
User currently offlineMIAMIx707 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2939 times:

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 13):
You know... I really take offense to this. The suggestion that American soldiers are killing more people than Saddam's regime is total horse shit.

And when I read this, it really makes me wonder what is being reported back home. Do you guys even know what the typical missions are like? What our objectives are? Or how we're combating the enemy?

If you look at who is responsible for killing innocent Iraqis... it's Muslims. Whether Iraqis or foreign fighters. And typically our missions are policing the cities, with the attempt to PREVENT the deaths of innocent people.

Let me repeat that - we put our lives in danger in order to step between Muslims killing Muslims. And it baffles me how people continually fail to grasp the concept of who is responsible for the needless killing in Iraq.

So the suggestion that my buddies and I are responsible for hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis is insulting, and completely ignorant of reality.

 checkmark 

You can say the same thing a thousand times here on a.net this but it comes in one ear and out of the other. Some people would rather believe what their uncle tells them or what their socialist/leftist media says.

However I would have thought a lethal injection would have been a better example. Hanging somebody? What example is that for a country in where people are already brutally killing each other? That doesn't seem like a modern form of ending someone's life.

On the other hand, hanging is a more fittiing end to his legacy after he always did whatever he wanted and killed whoever he wanted. A rather cruel but deserved end for an unrepentent, egotistical mass-murderer like Saddam Hussein. A tough lesson other dictators should learn, his actions didn't bring about a good ending.


User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined exactly 15 years ago today! , 4318 posts, RR: 11
Reply 21, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 2913 times:

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 13):
I have question for those opposed to the death penalty... what's the difference between a rope around his neck, or a 2,000lbs bomb dropped on his head?



Quoting AAFLT1871 (Reply 15):
I like this type of justice.

That's fine, and I respect that. But please respect that others do not believe in the death penalty, under the basis that no human being has a right to have life and death decisions on another. Otherwise, murder not be a crime.

And yes, same goes for abortion, which I oppose.



My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
User currently offline174thfwff From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 2915 times:

Here's the full death video if anyone wants to watch it.
http://www.anwarweb.net/saddamdown.wmv

I believe he is saying the "shahada", the witnessing that should be the last words on the lips of a muslim (in theory)

"I bear witness that there is no god but god, I bear witness that Muhammad *cut off, hung*". should have finished "Is the messenger of god"

[Edited 2006-12-30 23:04:51]

User currently offlineRobertNL070 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2003, 4534 posts, RR: 9
Reply 23, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 2910 times:

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 20):
However I would have thought a lethal injection would have been a better example. Hanging somebody? What example is that for a country in where people are already brutally killing each other? That doesn't seem like a modern form of ending someone's life.

Talking of lethal injection vs. hanging, it seems that Saddam still got a better deal than Angel Nieves Diaz.

Robert  bouncy 



Youth is a gift of nature. Age is a work of art.
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29832 posts, RR: 58
Reply 24, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 2886 times:

Let this be a lesson for you..

When you get into a war, you have to make sure you win!!!

I am a little disapointed that his body was returned to his family, frankly I think it should have been given to a good taxidermist who could then mount it for display in GW's presidential library.

Quoting 174thfwff (Reply 22):
I believe he is saying the "shahada", the witnessing that should be the last words on the lips of a muslim (in theory)

"I bear witness that there is no god but god, I bear witness that Muhammad *cut off, hung*". should have finished "Is the messenger of god"

It seems to be a popular video, I couldn't download it, but isn't amazing how people suddenly find religion under such circumstances.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
25 TACAA320 : " target=_blank>http://www.anwarweb.net/saddamdown.wmv I can't open this link. Is it working?
26 Brettbrett21 : i just kept pressing ''ok'' and eventually it opened, morbid though! brett
27 TACAA320 : Thanks, but my computer is not responding to such link.
28 Springbok747 : The whole Saddam trial was a joke. He didn't have a chance...we knew he was going to swing, there was no other way Saddam could have gotten off. If he
29 Cedars747 : Hola EZEIZA According to the international conventions it is forbidden to hand a prisoner of war to his adversary Alex!!!
30 TACAA320 : Agreed. A total charade.
31 Post contains images Noelg : Right click and save as - make sure you save it as it will most likely be taken down soon though! Pretty boring really though - no decent close up of
32 SlamClick : So you don't think he was guilty? That is pretty amazing.
33 Gunships : I agree 100%. I guess this didn't apply to the men, women, and children who were tortured and/or gassed to death over the span of a quarter century.
34 Adopim88 : I agree with his punishment. Plain and simple.
35 SlamClick : Except Darfur.
36 Raventom : Thousands of Eyes for one eye! We, the British, are against Capital Punishment.
37 FlyKev : I agree that this was the best way to remove this kind of scum from the earth. Look, you may not agree with it. That's fine. But i feel that had he ga
38 Pyrex : Milosevic's crimes were commited against Yugoslavians, the crimes commited in Rwanda were against Rwandans... shall I carry on?
39 AerospaceFan : It also dragged out to such an extent that Milosevic died a natural death before he could be punished. Here is a question for those who think that th
40 EZEIZA : None, he is dead, fair enough, but would it not have been better to let him rot in jail? Unfortunatly this was not justice being made, but marketing.
41 AerospaceFan : And yet, as I've noted, most people on death row would gladly "suffer" life imprisonment than be executed. Why is this? Could it not be that life in
42 AirTran737 : Add the Bosnians, and Slovenians in there as well.
43 AerospaceFan : Consider, as well, this: For those who argue that "death is really too quick and painless and therefore life in prison is better", would you agree, if
44 LTBEWR : While in most of the western world except for the USA and Japan among a few other countries, execution/death penalties judicially determined sentences
45 Pyrex : No I won't, they were Yugoslavs at the time. It would be like saying that Saddam commited crimes against Iraqis and against Kurds as well.
46 AerospaceFan : From a practical standpoint, I can seem some merit to the idea that Saddam might have suffered more in an Iraqi prison than he did actually suffer upo
47 Post contains images MIAMIx707 : Some people just have to say something to criticize. I don't know if he would still feel so bad for Saddam if he had friend or family tortured/gassed
48 Springbok747 : Er..because he was guilty. Everyone knew that...no point in having a trial.
49 MIAMIx707 : Then you are really missing the point. Good thing you are not president, with that dictator mindset.
50 TACAA320 : I never ever said that. Apply to every single person on earth.
51 Post contains links Springbok747 : Well..the whole trial was a farce. Do you really think they would have found Saddam not guilty? So..what was the point of this trail? Half the world
52 AerospaceFan : So they shouldn't have had the trial?
53 SlamClick : Well if you think he is guilty why does it surprise you that he was convicted? Isn't that the logical result? Isn't that what civilization deserves?
54 Post contains links TACAA320 : Jean Kirkpatrick once said: " * U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, Jeane Kirkpatrick criticised the Universal Declaration of Human Rights as bein
55 TACAA320 : The death penalty ? NO. Life in prison, YES. I'm not suprise that he was convicted. Once again: I never ever said that. I'm just against the death pe
56 AerospaceFan : That's probably true. The appetite is infinite, but the means to satiate them are not. I think that classical economists in the Malthusian tradition
57 Post contains links TACAA320 : Angel Nieves Díaz lasted 34 minutes to be dead... But, who cares ? http://www.diariodeavisos.com/content/149038/template/19/ [link in Spanish]
58 AsstChiefMark : Diseased brains take longer to die than normal ones. Same thing applies to drugged up and burned out brains. Mark
59 174thfwff : To show Saddam and the people of Iraq that people CAN have a chance at a fair trial...unlike what Saddam gave many people who died under his wrath.
60 AirWillie6475 : Bla, bla, bla, bla, bla.... Just another case of someone against the death penalty. They're even willing to protect animals like Sadam.
61 Post contains links 174thfwff : Here, this is the kind of stuff Saddam would pull Watch this move everyone!!! (found in link below) http://www.aei.org/events/eventID.844,filter.all/e
62 Halcyon : He murdered tons of people and was belligerent until the very end. Sick people like this are simply full of hate, and no amount of love or going soft
63 AndesSMF : Wait a minute, those of you opposed to the 'barbarity' of the death penalty advocate that the prisioner is better off suffering for a long time in pr
64 EZEIZA : I'm not necessarily against the death penalty. I just pointed out the dangers of this particular case. In fact, I think life in prison is very cruel,
65 AirWillie6475 : Then please put on the original thread that you aren't against the death penalty because some might get the wrong impression. I don't believe in cruel
66 AerospaceFan : Thank you for the clarification, EZEIZA. Certainly the question of capital punishment is a very emotional one in any case, and it is all too easy to
67 AerospaceFan : Finally, I am concerned regarding the possible existence of those cases in the United States that appear to hold that capital cases might not be able
68 MD11Engineer : From a German point of view: I compare the Sadam trial to the first Nuremberg trial back in 1945-46, which ended in capital punishment for ten of the
69 AerospaceFan : A few further comments, and particularly on the proposed language, above: Upon reflection, there is the possibility that the phrase, "in their quanti
70 MD11Engineer : Another similarity to the Nuremberg trials: Saddam made the same mistake as the Nazis: He left documented proof of his crimes. Much of the evidence, s
71 Braybuddy : I don't read that into Alaskaqantas's post, UH60. While Saddam was responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands of Iraqis, he didn't kill them him
72 TACAA320 : Are you talking about the idiot who wrongly applied the first lethal injection?
73 AerospaceFan : I haven't taken the trouble to read your particular exchange in this thread, but I want to make something quite clear: Any comparison between Preside
74 Braybuddy : What was the service to the American nation by invading Iraq?
75 SlamClick : Okay, no need to shout. I was just trying to get you to explain what you meant by this statement: And you have still not explained it. Just because Y
76 Peterk : So, what does "justice" mean -- nowadays? Well, according to the anti death penalty-speakers a criminal like Saddam Hussein gets only deprived from on
77 SlamClick : I just realized that you are the one who posted this: And this: Well allow me to introduce myself. I'm the guy who said this: Except Darfur. Except Da
78 Post contains images EZEIZA : I agree this on the "normal" criminals, but I'm not so sure with Saddam's case. This is a person that for many years has been surrounded by all the w
79 SlamClick : Come on now! You know damn well that his treatment would inflame Arab/Muslim anger against the west no matter who imprisons him or how luxurious his
80 SlamClick : When you say the trial was a "charade" you are not comparing it with another - presumably better - option. You are declaring that the procedure itsel
81 EZEIZA : It's not a matter of hope for civilization, but a matter of logic. The people that judged Saddam can in no way be 100% partial towards the figure tha
82 TACAA320 : No need to shout ! Do I have to explain every single of my arguments? No Sir, I don't have to explain anything. But if the answer is YES, you also ha
83 SlamClick : You know damn well that no prison in Iraq could hold him without substantial military backup. Throw him in Abu Ghraib, US troops come home, he'd be b
84 Post contains images SlamClick : touché Have to? No. If you wish ever to be taken seriously, you certainly should be able to. No you don't. Not really. Those are just pretty words b
85 Post contains links TACAA320 : S C H E D U L E S Schedule 1 THE ARTICLES PART I THE CONVENTION RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS ARTICLE 2 RIGHT TO LIFE 1. Everyone's right to life shall be prote
86 SlamClick : Amazing how you can post some of my own words but disregard the explanation that was in the same post. Here it is again: Judges, even though human, w
87 Post contains links TACAA320 : How do you know that ? Just only because what I said in this thread ? In such case many of us are guilty [guilty of what ?]. Don't judge me if you do
88 EZEIZA : Yes, Slam, and stop implying that anyone that does not agree with you is stupid. And i stand to what I said, if Saddam is in prison in an Arab/Muslim
89 SlamClick : Yes you have. They are unable to rise above themselves because they are [Iraqi]/[Kurd]/[Shia]. As I expect that you are none of the above your remark
90 SlamClick : "May" Indicates a certain level of probability or likelyhood short of certainty. A guess. "because of" Does not mean that the US killed them. It mean
91 AerospaceFan : I suspect you would not be alone in wanting to exact revenge, and it is a very natural feeling, I believe. Agreed, although I will respond to the fol
92 SlamClick : Stop pretending not to know things... The news, every single day, carries accounts of the people of the Middle East being incensed over something. Th
93 Par13del : What would make an international tribunal impartial? Everyone has their prejudices, if your son worked for a company in Europe that lost millions of d
94 TACAA320 : Like EZEIZA said :"stop implying that anyone that does not agree with you is stupid." I'm not obligated to do so. And it doesn't means that I wasn't
95 Springbok747 : I am not aganist the death penalty. But the trial was flawed. There was no way Saddam could have been found not guilty. So thats why I am asking..wha
96 SlamClick : I'm sorry but ethics should demand that anyone making that statement back it up with exact quotes from Iraqi law and accurate extracts from the trans
97 SlamClick : I am not. I am implying, no, I am stating it straight out: What you posted was dishonest. I posted the definitions because they completely dismantle
98 EZEIZA : haha, the R word! give me a break! I said I could not judge properly if being put in the same position. Am I also a racist of myself? Why don't you g
99 EZEIZA : I'm going to assume that this was directed to me, so, what are you talking about? When in this thread did I blame anyone about anything? Are you sure
100 SlamClick : Sorry, that part was intended for TACAA320 and not you. I got confused after you jumped in on what was basically a dialoge between him and me.
101 SlamClick : I think we can both disregard that part as well. It too was directed at TACAA320 and not you. I got out of phase there, I'm afraid. As for the argume
102 Post contains links Springbok747 : Because our troops did not drag him out of his hole...your troops did. And in any case we didn't invade Iraq, we only went in after Bush told our PM
103 SlamClick : Again the hole was in Iraq. The crimes were committed in Iraq. He was an Iraqi citizen. His victims were mostly Iraqi, although Iran and Kuwait might
104 Par13del : Since Europe has no death penalty, it is really surprizing that no European country really pushed harder to have his trial in Europe where he would no
105 Springbok747 : Ok Saddam committed his crimes in Iraq. Then they should have waited till a credible government was in place...not have a trial now when the governmen
106 Post contains images Springbok747 : Everyone (even your government) knows what kind of a government is in Iraq right now. They are powerless to stop the suicide bombings and the killing
107 TACAA320 : "Dozens"? In plural? You're also wrong in mathematics. Happy new year.
108 AerospaceFan : That seems most true. It would be quite a responsibility to undertake.
109 Post contains links Baroque : I have posted these before but since you ask http://www.globalpolicy.org/intljust...bunals/iraq/2005/1207coalition.htm http://www.opendemocracy.net/g
110 EZEIZA : The only one who is using the race difference is you. No one is implying Iraqis are inferior people, please understand that Would have been just as b
111 ME AVN FAN : it could have been commuted to life imprisonment on a remote island in the South Atlantic - - True. BUT the whole mess IS a result of how the US-lead
112 SlamClick : If other nations, other ethnicities can be trusted to try their own criminals why not Iraqis. Explain please. I'd love to believe that your reasons f
113 SlamClick : And you have utterly ignored every point having to do with this thread. Happy New Year
114 767Lover : I have often wondered about this myself. Not specifically about this user, but as a general observation. Could it be that expressing outrage about th
115 ME AVN FAN : I basically have no doubt about the ability of Iraqi lawyers and judges. I just wonder whether the result would have been the same, had the trial tak
116 SlamClick : Interesting. Do you actually "wonder" about it? That is, do you actually think it is possible that he might have been acquitted? Or are you just tryi
117 Post contains images TACAA320 : As true as the way you do mathematics counting my posts [by "dozens"]. I just was trying to follow your example sir. Remember that never is too late
118 ME AVN FAN : - No, he would NOT have been acquitted ! But he would have been sentenced to life-imprisonment, and the Brits might have "offered" a convenient place
119 AerospaceFan : True, that. This is particularly under the "Great Man" theory of history. Many of us, and yours truly included, unconsciously fall into the trap of o
120 SlamClick : Fact: Any product of "dozens" exceeding 1.0 can properly be referred to in the plural. In this thead, as of the time I wrote that you had posted in pr
121 Skywatch : Keeping a security risk like Saddam safe and sound in his country's jail costs a whole lot of money and take a large amount of people....just one more
122 SlamClick : Dead wrong sir. You are assuming that if he had been tried in a geographic region where Iraqi police and military are supported by British troops tha
123 SlamClick : True. And part of my point way up the page. Some of these people are going to die. Some of their families are going to die for no other reason than t
124 ME AVN FAN : - NO NO NO, it would have been Iraqi law, but NOT US-American influence - - another NO. I would have preferred to have him tried by an international
125 SlamClick : Well, perhaps there is where you and I begin to disagree. You seem to think that secret memos from RumCheneyBush would override all local interests i
126 Par13del : ME AVN FAN a question for you, what do you mean by: "NO NO NO, it would have been Iraqi law, but NOT US-American influence" You agree that he would st
127 Post contains links TACAA320 : Quoting SlamClick (Reply 120): Fact: you have posted here 1.167 dozen times. Touche. Thanks. You are giving me the reason. "dozen" not "dozens". YOU s
128 TACAA320 : Are you talking about yourself?
129 EZEIZA : Are you kidding me? do you even read other posts? please read some of my previous posts, since you obviously did not read them the first time.
130 QXatFAT : It would cost to much money to try him internationally. Why would you wana waste all your money on him? Hey if you donate all your assets to cover the
131 EZEIZA : They did it with Milosevic though, so I'm guessing it was not an economic motive
132 Post contains links TACAA320 : Very bad quality video but gives an idea of the execution. Disclaimer: Not intended to minors. http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...766935521&q=sadd
133 ME AVN FAN : not much "pushing" was needed as the final death penalty met the mood of many in Iraq rather nicely. But I think the Brits would have encouraged a li
134 Baroque : Assuming the "SCORE" was about to be 400,000 (that would have been 400,000 to 0) before Saddam was killed, it is probably a fair assumption that it m
135 MD11Engineer : I'm of exactly the opposite opinion. In my opinion and execution, if it is necessary, should look like an execution and not like some medical procedu
136 SlamClick : Pardon me for having a family and a life. I have not yet seen your question. I'll just BET you would like to have me "give it a rest" and not bring u
137 SlamClick : Assuming that this is what you were referring to: I did not reply for several reasons. 4. It is a weighted question. It is a statement disguised as a
138 TACAA320 : I second that !
139 Cedars747 : Same here Alex!!!
140 SlamClick : As you post from Australia I assume you are a native English-speaker. If I'm wrong please advise. This post baffles me. Did you mean how "much" liter
141 SlamClick : You go on and on about how wrong it is to kill Saddam Hussein then I point out your total silence on the 400,000 dead in Darfur and you call me sick.
142 TACAA320 : A person who is against the death penalty, in other words "pro-life". Yes I do. As well as Baroque and Cedars747 did. By condemning the death penalty
143 SlamClick : For mass murderers but not for Darfur. Give it up. We know you now.
144 TACAA320 : Re-read my post #50. "We"? You and how many more?
145 Miamiair : You're trying to teach pigs to sing, you're wasting your time and the pigs like it. TACAA320, Cedars747 and Baroque; they should have been the charac
146 Baroque : Well I did point out that some of the difficulties of dealing with Darfur might be related indirectly to the Iraq adventure. You did not answer that
147 Post contains links SlamClick : All right. Why do you call me "sick?" • I have never once advocated torture or humiliation or unusual punishment for Saddam. • I have never once
148 TACAA320 : Don't worry. They already know how to sing. Correction: Everybody life.
149 Miamiair : I see that. You have your opinion and others here have theirs; don't try to change them with personal atacks.
150 SlamClick : Never said that. Only pointed out that TACAA320 is not sufficientlyl concerned with African lives to have ever posted in their defense. AIDS, is ...a
151 SlamClick : Show me the posts or admit your lie.
152 TACAA320 : Arguments. Not attacks. For the second time, re-read posts 50 and 144. Who has to admit their lie?
153 SlamClick : What lie? Point it out and I'll address it, otherwise your accusation is, itself a lie.
154 TACAA320 : What a coincidence. That is exactly the same question that I ask when reading your post 151. What lie?
155 SlamClick : Okay, you claim to value every human life. I point out that four hundred thousand of them have been taken in Darfur and you kept silent about it but w
156 Post contains images ANCFlyer : This thread is way off topic.
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