JFKTOWERFAN From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 1100 posts, RR: 14
Reply 3, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 2080 times:
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Quoting Queso (Reply 2): At the same time all other CRIMES stop. Murder, rape, robery, burglary, drunk driving, embezzlement.......when will any of it stop?
Thats a huge statement, just seems to me that a School is a much more controlled environment. I would think it would be fairly easy to make sure guns don't walk through the front door of a school. But I guess that would cost money and money is obviously more important than people.
Queso From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 2074 times:
Quoting JFKTOWERFAN (Reply 3): I would think it would be fairly easy to make sure guns don't walk through the front door of a school. But I guess that would cost money and money is obviously more important than people.
That's a good point and something we can agree on. I don't think it would be a bad idea to have metal detectors at entrances of schools. It would help to screen out other items we wouldn't want in schools too. I'm not sure how practical that idea is, but I think some schools are doing it now.
We really need to get a little more info on exactly what happened though before we start analyzing this particular incident.
Most gun crimes are committed by people who are illegally possessing firearms to begin with. All the laws in the world don't stop people who don't obey the law anyway. Much like drunk driving laws. It is illegal to drink and drive, but people do it all the time. Just because there are laws people can choose to ignore them. We take weapons, or all kinds, off of students all the time where I work. All of which are illegal in a school or for a person under 21. The law does not stop people who don't care about the law to begin with.
This isn't new. The worst school mass murder in US history was on 5-18-1927, in Bath, Michigan. A disgruntled school board member blew up the school killing 45 people and injuring 58. He was upset because his farm had been foreclosed on, partially due to tax issues. The school construction was paid for through increased property taxes.
Everyone thinks that mass killing in a school is new, but things have happened in the past. It is not just a problem in the US either.
If there ever is a shooting in the school I work in it will be over drugs. Business is business to some people. If it isn't a gun, it would be a beating or a stabbing.
Falstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6307 posts, RR: 29
Reply 8, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 2035 times:
Quoting JFKTOWERFAN (Reply 3): Thats a huge statement, just seems to me that a School is a much more controlled environment. I would think it would be fairly easy to make sure guns don't walk through the front door of a school. But I guess that would cost money and money is obviously more important than people.
School is a controlled environment, but if it gets out of hand it can go very fast. One teacher in a classroom and 25 kids. Things go go the other way very fast, especially in a high school. A couple of weeks ago a fight in our lunch room caused about 100 kids to run into the area. The 5 employees were mobbed and the fight continued until it was over.
Easier said then done about weapons in school. Kids will not have them on them when they enter, but people will pass them in through windows, fire doors, etc. Everytime you figure a way to keep something out they people hell bent of doing something bad will figure out how to beat it. If only those kids put that much effort into their education.
The NRA is mostly funded by people like me who pay their $35 per year or $750 for life. It is not just some big ogre organization without a face. People like me pay them to represent us and our views. The NRA has millions of members and some of them are not even from the USA.
I also belong to the Boat Owners Association of the United States, which is also a lobbyist group. Boating my be far less objectionable to some people, but the principle is the same.
Bushpilot From South Africa, joined Jul 2007, 0 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 1956 times:
Certainly a tragic situation. But one that I think is generally unavoidable. Guns are a part of our country. Introducing legislation that is reactionary in nature to events such as this shameful, much less having that legislation passed. My thoughts go with the victim and thier family and friends. May the perp spend a long time in prison.
N174UA From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 994 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 1928 times:
Let me guess...a loner kid is bullied constantly, can't take it anymore, plays too many violent video games, steals a gun from his parents or friend who didn't responsibly secure it at their home, and went crazy.
When will the bullying problem in schools (everywhere, not just the US) be solved? When will school stop being a fashion show where survival of the fittest is the mentality?
With rights comes responsibility. If you own a gun, you're responsible for it all times. If you're not around, then it needs to be locked up, plain and simple. If it turns out in this case that the parents didn't responsibly secure this weapon, then THEY need to be severely punished as well.
You know...there were always guns in my parents home when I was growing up. But I was taught how to respect a weapon and how to handle one if I found one laying around someplace. I don't care if you like guns or not...or if you want to own one or not...that's the choice of the individual. What I DO care about is people, at a very young age, need to be taught basic gun safety principles.
I support the NRA and the 2nd amendment, but I personally don't have any guns in my home. I don't support meaningless "feel good" legislation that ultimately accomplishes nothing. CRIMINALS DON'T OBEY LAWS!!!!!
AirCop From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 1908 times:
You make three very good points N174UA.
When I went to school, teachers were still respected in the community and they dressed professionally. Now it seems teachers have become the poster child for everything wrong in the USA, by certain political groups. I suppose one could see a relate a decline in discipline to the way society treats teachers, and the downgrading of the way teachers dress for work. How can someone be taken seriously as a professional if you're teaching students wearing a t-shirt and dirty blue jeans?
Evan767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 2957 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 1904 times:
Quoting Queso (Reply 5): From the Fox link in the thread starter.....
"Some students interviewed by a local news station said they didn't know who the shooter was, but one female described the alleged gunman as "some white guy.""
Well, THAT narrows it down.
Actually, it can narrow it down. I know of one school here in Richmond which is pretty much all black. I am sure there are neighborhoods like that near Seattle. A white person would certainly stick out in a "ghetto" neighborhood.
The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
Bushpilot From South Africa, joined Jul 2007, 0 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 1892 times:
Quoting AirCop (Reply 16): When I went to school, teachers were still respected in the community
I think they generally are.
Quoting AirCop (Reply 16): Now it seems teachers have become the poster child for everything wrong in the USA
Funny, but Ill play. Teachers make up probably the best cross reference of background of many occupations in this country. I wonder what that says about the entire country.
Quoting AirCop (Reply 16): I suppose one could see a relate a decline in discipline to the way society treats teachers
You know, I work with youth, not as a teacher but through a non-profit, and am good friends with many teachers. They can try to instill discipline until they are blue in the face and truely distract from the educational process in attempting to do so, but when thier hands are cuffed from the administration of thier classroom, and with no help from PARENTS what is one to do.
Quoting AirCop (Reply 16): the downgrading of the way teachers dress for work. How can someone be taken seriously as a professional if you're teaching students wearing a t-shirt and dirty blue jeans?
Well if teachers were paid what they were worth, and could afford better clothes on top of having to pay for retirement, student loans, ongoing education, on top of thier normal wages is not as easy as one would think.
Searpqx From Netherlands, joined Jun 2000, 4346 posts, RR: 10
Reply 19, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 1865 times:
Quoting Evan767 (Reply 17): I know of one school here in Richmond which is pretty much all black. I am sure there are neighborhoods like that near Seattle.
There are, but this isn't one of them. This particular school sits at the edge of North Tacoma, a generally generally mixed, somewhat gentrified section of the city. The overall profile of the school is very mixed, 42% White, 28% Black, 20% Asian, 8% Hispanic, 1% American Native. In other words, a pretty typical urban school.
Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 18): They can try to instill discipline until they are blue in the face and truely distract from the educational process in attempting to do so, but when thier hands are cuffed from the administration of thier classroom, and with no help from PARENTS what is one to do.
Having worked in a local district (that shares borders with the district this school was in) I can't agree more with this statement. I reported to the Asst. Superintendent responsible for 1/2 the schools in the district, and my desk was the ultimate destination for issues that couldn't be resolved at the school level. While there were certainly cases where the teachers were out of line, the vast majority of the complaints I dealt with were from parents who were challenging a teachers authority to take disciplinary action against their son. In over 90% of the cases, it was a matter of the parent refusing to accept that their child could do ANY wrong, let alone what the teacher had disciplined them for. Even in cases where we backed the teacher/administration 100%, it was not uncommon for the Superintendent and/or School Board to overturn the decision. Many parents have abdicated their responsibility for their kids, instead placing it on the school. But while they hold the schools accountable, they refuse to grant them the authority. Schools are under tremendous pressure to treat everyone 'equally', and in their effort to accomplish this, the goal becomes to not offend anyone, at all. This ultimately flows down to the classroom and directly impacts the teachers ability to maintain order and conduct an effective class.
"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
KiwiinOz From New Zealand, joined Oct 2005, 2166 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 1860 times:
Quoting Falstaff (Reply 6): Most gun crimes are committed by people who are illegally possessing firearms to begin with. All the laws in the world don't stop people who don't obey the law anyway. Much like drunk driving laws. It is illegal to drink and drive, but people do it all the time. Just because there are laws people can choose to ignore them. We take weapons, or all kinds, off of students all the time where I work. All of which are illegal in a school or for a person under 21. The law does not stop people who don't care about the law to begin with.
I know this becomes an argument that goes around in circles, but the reality is, if the gun laws were more restricted, then there would be much fewer available guns for the law breakers to get a hold of. If there were one tenth the legally owned guns in the community in America, it would have a big effect on illegal shootings.
True, it may mean that those who want to commit violent crimes resort to knives/baseball bats etc when they can't get hold of a gun, but an offender brandishing such a weapon is easier to control, and less effective.
Bushpilot From South Africa, joined Jul 2007, 0 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 1859 times:
Quoting Searpqx (Reply 19): In over 90% of the cases, it was a matter of the parent refusing to accept that their child could do ANY wrong
That is a main problem. I have been working with community youth here for the last 7 years, and time and time again, I have tried to deal with kids where thier parents blame everyone but thier own kid for thier poor behavior. it is the school's fault, the team coach, the police. Everyone else in the world is wrong about my kid!
Another thing I will point out, that professionals that work with youth, have to toe such a fine line on what can and cannot go on. One can get fired for raising thier voices even. While I agree that some behavior on behalf of a teacher etc should be watched closely. The parents have much more influence in the lives of thier children, but little reprocussion if they dont exert that properly.
PLANAR From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 155 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 1850 times:
I remember back in India, when I was in my 9th grade (1997 was the year) - a student brought a spent bullet shell and it set off such a flurry among the staff, that the shell was confiscated and parents were called in and given a stern lecture by the school.
India has strict arms laws and although indeed I concur that criminals really don't follow laws, theres still something to be said about having stricter arms control.
For example - that was the first time I ever saw a bullet shell. Most common people in India don't bear fire-arms, which usually is the sole prerogative of police personnels.
IMHO, It just makes sense to restrict devices which are primarily meant to harm, never mind how noble the intentions of NRA.
Not just a knee-jerk reaction to yet another shooting incident, but I do think that guns should be made more harder to obtain.
On a lighter note - this reminds me of that Family Guy episode ( Its 5th season episode 11)-
"You think the language in Second Amendment is clear enough - you know the right to bear arms?"
"Ofcourse its clear - Every American has the right to hang a pair of Bear Arms on their wall, how could that possibly be misconstrued?"
"Alright, fantastic then, you know what, before we send this to the printer, lets take that abortion thing out!"
Itsjustme From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 2830 posts, RR: 9
Reply 23, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 1848 times:
Hopefully this won't turn into another gun control debate. We need to tighten the security of our schools, period. Metal detectors and random property searches are a must. Schools should be a haven for our kids and teachers and we should take whatever steps necessary to achieve that goal.
Quoting AirCop (Reply 16): I suppose one could see a relate a decline in discipline to the way society treats teachers, and the downgrading of the way teachers dress for work. How can someone be taken seriously as a professional if you're teaching students wearing a t-shirt and dirty blue jeans?
Agreed, just as the dress code for the students has changed drastically. I'm not in favor of school uniforms, but we need to get back to some type of dress code for students and teachers.
ANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 1841 times:
Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 23): Hopefully this won't turn into another gun control debate.
It will . . . . this is A-Net remember. All of us responsible gun owners - cops included - will all get told what lousy human beings we are before the night passes.
Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 23): Schools should be a haven for our kids and teachers and we should take whatever steps necessary to achieve that goal.
Exactly why I'm glad my daughter is now going to school in rural Iowa rather than the Anchorage schools. Naturally I'm not so naive as to assume nothing untoward could occur at her school, I'm just smart enough to know the odds have been knocked way down . . .
: PLANAR, Thanks for your reply, I thought it to be of high quality. I will respond with a few comments of my own. Interesting story, I am one who think
: I wholly agree. But I guess a little mixture of healthy respect and fear will do a lot good in this regard. That is true. Situation in America dictat
: Pep, there has yet to be a school shooting during school hours in ANC. Granted there were 3 murders off school grounds in less than 6 hours on New Ye
: I don't agree with you gun laws but I do believe that most American gun owners are responsible with the privelege of owning a firearm. However, beyon
: I'd like to hear opinions on one idea of mine: children are too often thought to be undersized adults. People expect them to "function", which is to
: Thats why many schools in India strictly enforce - No mobiles/cell-phones, no Ipods nor video-games, strict uniform code. Sometimes they even go over
: You mean like actually take an interest in their kid's lives and pay attention to them instead of dropping them in front of the idiot box? What a won
: NO, you're exactly right. Just a matter of time IMO. There are other mitigations here as well. I spent some time in my daughters classrooms in her ne
: I'll agree with you on that point. "Latch-key kids", or kids who come home after school when both parents are still at work, have free reign of the p
: I like the sarcasm! Do you remember the scenes? IIRC, it wasn't about the mother working long hours because she found that job, but because she was p
: Not like they used to be. Right. That line of approach always works well. Like when we banned alcohol, and how we currently ban illicit drugs. Which
: Do remember though that Bowling for Columbine wasn't as one-sided as... umm... that more recent movie whose name escapes me. The one about 9/11 and s
: I thought it was pretty good as well. It can actually work but obviously it seems to be the chic thing to blame someone else when their kid becomes a
: In fact, supply of alcohol under prohibition was obviousely MUCH less than than when legalised, (you don't honestly believe that alcohol supply and c
: In Flint, MI? The movie probably didn't tell the entire story, they hardly ever do, but the woman along with the rest of the community was helpless.
: Not so typical for an urban Detroit school. Suburban Maybe. The school I teach at is 90% black 9% white and 1% Hispanic. Many of my black students ca
: I disagree. He is a master at the art of propaganda and who better to compare him to than Goebbels. As I said in my response Moore doesn't have the w
: Probably - it's a German thing just like the disdain for national pride most of my countrymen share. Good night (well, more like "early morning" in m
: Point taken Aloges. Have a good night. And despite the past of Germany you should always have national pride. Just don't let it get crazy except durin
: Everyone should have national pride. I love my country so I see no reason why others should not love theirs.
: Let me elaborate. When I was a kid, we only had summer youth baseball as the one "organized" activity where other adults were in charge of directing
: One reason why my two kids were limited to one outside activity. Parents are supposed to be parents, and the role of a parent isn't suppose to be a c
: so seems the case in most of life, unfortunately those are already happening 1) yes kids always find ways to bring things in. I am currently in high
: Fahrenheit 9/11. And just like BfC, 9/11 was full of mistruths and some very creative editing. IIRC, she was working at a restaurant in a mega-mall i
: In facts and figures, you're right, it's groundless....however, in terms of common sense, I think it's pretty obvious. Apparently you don't agree, in
: It was affected, alright. Alcohol consumption increased significantly during prohibition. One of the best articles I found on the subject is here
: Oh, how I wish that it was true. Unfortunately, it isn't. We've been setting cocaine seizure records for the better part of the last decade, and supp
: Very good discussion, gentlemen. Undoubtably the most civil discussion of this subject I have ever seen on A.net! You all make very good points, carry
: Or carried on your waist Which is a great way to look at it. Many of the antis feel that because we have the RIGHT to own a gun, we NEED to own a gun
: It is not just the antis that feel that way. I know plenty of people who own guns simply because they can. The same goes for carrying concealed. In A
: I guess it all comes down to culture of each country. In India, corporal punishment in schools is pretty common, and in fact, many parents come to sch