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What Is England Thinking?  
User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 8
Posted (13 years 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1491 times:

England has stated that they will hand bin Laden over to the USA, ONLY IF he does NOT face the death penalty.

I agree, it's not like he killed anyone on US soil, he wasn't flying those planes.

Just give him a nice comfortable cell, with a computer, nice modem, and some satellite phones.

We wouldn't want him to lose touch with his "friends", right?



http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/12/09/ret.uk.laden/index.html




Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
76 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKROC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (13 years 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1364 times:

Maybe Osama and Noreaga can share the same penthouse.

User currently offlineAloha 737-200 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (13 years 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1354 times:

Has Osama been captured??????????

User currently offlineCPDC10-30 From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2000, 4810 posts, RR: 23
Reply 3, posted (13 years 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1348 times:

I don't think it matters anyways, because he has vowed to kill himself before being captured.

User currently offlineScotty From UK - Scotland, joined Dec 1999, 1875 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (13 years 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1347 times:

It is illegal for a country which is a signatory to the European Convention on Human Rights to extradite criminals to states where the death penalty exists.

We may support you but we dont always have to agree with you. Is that not what we're fighting for anyway?

btw, the name of the state is United Kingdom, not England. please learn the difference.

Cheers

Scotty


User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (13 years 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1341 times:

>>Maybe Osama and Noreaga can share the same penthouse.<<

I don't know if Osama would like Miami though, maybe we can build his cell in the Arizona desert if he prefers...at taxpayer's expense of course.


>>Has Osama been captured??????????<

No, this is IF he was captured.


>>I don't think it matters anyways, because he has vowed to kill himself before being captured.<<

But what if he is? But most importantly, what if his deputies are captured? Should they be asked to pay for their crime of murdering thousands?

I say let it be the Nurremburg Trials part II.



Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
User currently offlineSingapore_Air From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 13745 posts, RR: 19
Reply 6, posted (13 years 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1330 times:

Please have some respect for the country that is standing shoulder to shoulder with the country below Canada but above Mexico.

I echo what Scotty has said



Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
User currently offlineSilverfox From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2001, 1058 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (13 years 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1325 times:

Scotty, the average non UK resident wouldnt know the difference if it kick them up the arse.
To prove my point, This is why the average us newsman states place and country, as his average viewer hasnt a clue where most non us places are. e'g Hiram Knucklhead Paris France as there are a few Paris's in the us. The UK newshound just says John Snow Paris, as most of his viewers do have a decent education on other parts of the world.
To prove a point
In Detroit this Oct i met some schoolkids at the Dearborn museum. When asked where i was from i said Windsor, where our Queen sometimes stays in the Castle. As i was leaving the teacher said to me. You live near Windsor?, yes i said, then came the DUMBEST question EVER
Did you have problems coming through the tunnel today?
I asked if she taught geography, and guess what. SHE DIDNT!!
I rest my case


User currently offlineCapt.Picard From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (13 years 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1328 times:

PanAm,

You're right, not many people would care, but it would probably be in your interest to avoid developing bad habits (re:inaccurate & misleading posts).

Firstly, this is a source whose accuracy I don't trust, ie.CNN.

Secondly, if the article is accurate, it depends upon the UK finding Bin Laden first, and bringing him to justice.

Thirdly, it may well be that Bin Laden is not given the death penalty, irrespective of what the UK government's position/opinion on this is; the death penalty may not be chosen, or if it is true that some US states don't have such a penalty, the trial may occur in one of these states; again, irrespective of whether a majority want Bin Laden to die or not.

Last of all, there is generally a different attitude in Europe, as regards the death penalty-there are many reasons;

1) Religiously immoral

2) The possibility of innocence

3) The belief that the capital execution of the guilty party merely represents revenge in its lowest form.

I'm not against the death penalty personally (I used to be), but capital punishment is not the preferred mode of revenge in Europe.

Regards


User currently offlineAlpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (13 years 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1325 times:

I have a feeling that OBL, even if he's captured by British troops, would be turned over to US authorities before he left Afghanistan. I think that EU law applies to people being held inside an EU nation.

And I think it's doubtful he'll be captured. He's as much a lowly coward as he is a bully, and he'll take the coward's way out by killing himself before he let himself be captured.

And no, Scotty, he didn't fly the planes, but it was his orders that lead to the attacks, and in the US he would be tried for about 3000 counts or so of 1st Degree Murder. That would make him eligible for the Death Sentence.

And don't get so picky about the name of the U.K. People have known that country by both England and the U.K. for ages, and it's silly to make an issue of it.


User currently offlineScotty From UK - Scotland, joined Dec 1999, 1875 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (13 years 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 1316 times:

Yeah, I suppose it depends who catches him. if anyone.

Btw, in response to the following pearls of wisdom :

"Who cares, you know what I am talking about"

Actually, I care and so do about 55 million other people who live in the UK (not England).

"And don't get so picky about the name of the U.K. People have known that country by both England and the U.K. for ages, and it's silly to make an issue of it"

Well, I will get picky, as the name of the UK is NOT England. The UK contains four countries and is not an interchangeable term for England

These comments just about sum up why so many people in the world regard the US as failing to possess any understanding of anybody else's country. Keep going and you will alienate even your friends, of which I am one. We try to understand your country, especially at this time. All we ask is that you try to understand ours.

Thanks to Singapore Air and Capt. Picard for appreciating the point which I am trying to make

Scotty


User currently offlineHepkat From Austria, joined Aug 2000, 2341 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (13 years 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 1310 times:

If Osama's captured by the British, then the U.S. has to petition his extradition. It's not possible for the U.K. to simply hand him over in Afghanistan. Also, once a suspect is in E.U. custody, it then becomes IMPOSSIBLE for that suspect to be extradited to a country where he would face the death penalty, REGARDLESS of where he was physically arrested or being held. The U.S. would have to guarantee to the U.K. government that he would not face capital punishment before he can be handed over. This has always been the case, and will not be changed for this situation.

If Osama were to be extradited to the U.S., he would not be facing state charges, but federal. Therefore, it doesn't matter in which state he's tried, a suspect can be given the federal death penalty in every state of the union. Someone mentioned that maybe he can be tried in a state that does not have capital punishment. This can only happen if he committed a state crime in a state that does not have capital punishment.

That being said, I think one of two things will happen. If Osama's captured by an E.U ally, he will be sent before some international tribunal, either in The Hague or in Belgium. If convicted, he will be sentenced to life in prison without parole. If he's captured by U.S. troops, he will immediately be whisked away to some secret American territory to face a military tribunal. When he's finally convicted, he will face the death penalty amid deafeningly loud objections from the E.U. allies. After his head has rolled, indignant E.U. countries will threaten to reassess their relationship with the Bush administration.


User currently offlineAlpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (13 years 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 1297 times:

That being said, I think one of two things will happen. If Osama's captured by an E.U ally, he will be sent before some international tribunal, either in The Hague or in Belgium. If convicted, he will be sentenced to life in prison without parole. If he's captured by U.S. troops, he will immediately be whisked away to some secret American territory to face a military tribunal. When he's finally convicted, he will face the death penalty amid deafeningly loud objections from the E.U. allies. After his head has rolled, indignant E.U. countries will threaten to reassess their relationship with the Bush administration.

Are you serious with that last sentence, Hepkat? Or was that just a joke? I'd really like to know.

Because, first of all, if you're serious, you're nuts. The EU won't "reassess the relationship" with the U.S. if the U.S. justifiably executes a man responsible for thousands of deaths on U.S. soil. And if they do scream an yell about it, let 'em. I don't think that will happen, although some ultra-leftist souls, and those who always can find something to complain about the U.S. for, will surely raise their voices. Let them yell. He deserved to die.



User currently offlineHepkat From Austria, joined Aug 2000, 2341 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (13 years 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 1290 times:

I'm dead serious. And if you don't believe me, let's just wait until the Europeans start commenting on this thread.

User currently offlineJm-airbus320 From Jamaica, joined Aug 2000, 304 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (13 years 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 1283 times:

Hmmm I wonder what AI would say about this one?

Jm-airbus320


User currently offlineVonRichtofen From Canada, joined Nov 2000, 4638 posts, RR: 36
Reply 15, posted (13 years 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 1280 times:

She probably thought you meant Windsor Ontario.


Word
User currently offlineAlpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (13 years 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 1279 times:

I'm dead serious. And if you don't believe me, let's just wait until the Europeans start commenting on this thread.

ROTFLMAO. You may be serious, but you're also certifiable, if you think the EU would be idiotic enough to do such a think over Osama Bin Laden!  Laugh out loud

And guess what? A few Europeans on here don't constitute the thinking of the EU governments, does it?

The fact is, Hepkat, the EU wouldn't "reassess" ANYTHING if the U.S. captures this mutt, tries him, and then executes him for mass murder. If there was ever a case for the Death Sentence-and I'm not one who is a proponent of the Death Penalty in most cases-then this lowlife is the poster child for such a sentence. The EU, giving the U.S. a hard time over THIS? Don't make me laugh. Oh, too late-you already made me laugh.


User currently offlineCapt.Picard From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (13 years 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 1271 times:

Thanks for the correction regarding the death penalty/federal/state courts.

I think Alpha has a point when he says that a few European members don't consitute a wide European spectrum of opinion/thinking-although I do think we get a good 'flavour' of European thoughts and attitudes around here!  Big grin ; I don't know what the legalities of the whole thing are though, and it may well be that the UK would be (legally) unable to hand over Ozzie to the US without a formal guarantee of no dealth penalty from the US............*IF* all this is indeed true, and *IF* the UK forces capture him first.

Isn't it more likely that Ozzie will either kill himself, or be killed in 'mysterious' circumstances?

I think it would be a lot less hassle for all concerned if Ozzie just did the job himself........and perhaps symbolically advantageous to the US in that they could label it as 'the coward's last resort' or similar-that might deal a pyschological blow to his cronies (or may not....)

Regards


User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 8
Reply 18, posted (13 years 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 1259 times:

>>I think it would be a lot less hassle for all concerned if Ozzie just did the job himself........and perhaps symbolically advantageous to the US in that they could label it as 'the coward's last resort' or similar-that might deal a pyschological blow to his cronies (or may not....)<<

Much like Hitler in WWII.



Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
User currently offlineIainhol From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (13 years 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 1257 times:

If the SAS (the only British Force hunting him) found him, I am sure they would shoot him first, and ask questions later. You can make up BS, that you where concerned he was booby trapped, or that he had a concealed weapon, etc. I do not think he will be taken alive, even if he tries to!
Iain


User currently offlineLH423 From Canada, joined Jul 1999, 6501 posts, RR: 54
Reply 20, posted (13 years 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 1245 times:

You live near Windsor?, yes i said, then came the DUMBEST question EVER
Did you have problems coming through the tunnel today?


Siverfox: You apparantly know as much about North American geography as the average North American knows about Europe, or you must not get out much. If that's the "DUMBEST" question you've "EVER" heard, you must not. If you did know our geography you would know that the city neighbouring Detroit just across the river in Canada is Windsor, Ontario. And much like there is a tunnel connecting the UK and France, there is one connecting the US and Canada underneath the river. I don't mind the fact that you want to criticize people for calling the UK "England", because I, too, think that it is an error. However, please don't take such an arrogant tone, especially when you are wrong.

Personally, as an anti-Capital Punishment "leftie", I agree that any country that does manage to catch bin Laden alive should not extradite him to the US unless the American government agrees to not kill him. As much as I would like to see him dead, I don't believe that governments should be in charge of the practice, no matter the crime. Also, I think we put him in the general population of any Federal Prison, our prisoners will take care of the matter on their own.

LH423



« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
User currently offlinePhlflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 851 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (13 years 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 1241 times:

Well said, LH423. Silverfox had some excellent points until he was caught with his pants down about Windsor. Although I am Pro-capital punishment conservative, I think killing him would be exactly what he wants, to be a martyr. Anyway, I think there would be a few inmates that might fancy a well educated Middle Eastern boy friend at whatever prison he would end up at.

User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 8
Reply 22, posted (13 years 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 1228 times:

>>I think killing him would be exactly what he wants, to be a martyr.<<

That's what Tim McVeigh wanted too, but he isn't.



Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
User currently offlinePhlflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 851 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (13 years 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 1226 times:

I believe there are millions of radical islamic fundementalist where as there are only a few thousand ultra right wing kooks like Tim McVeigh.

User currently offlineJetService From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 4798 posts, RR: 11
Reply 24, posted (13 years 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 1217 times:

Silverfox, did you know Windsor, Ontario is a stones-throw away from Detroit? That's what she meant. You didn't know about Windsor? Maybe if you stuck around that teacher, she may have taught you a bit about geography. (BTW, Ontario is a Canadian province)  Big grin

But what the hell. That story is a good one. You can go spread the stereotype of 'dumb-Yanks' to your buddies.  Insane



"Shaddap you!"
25 Carmy : I think the British have the right to do whatever they want to if they capture Osama.
26 Alpha 1 : Carmy, what if the American's capture him? Do we have the right to do whatever we want with the bastard?
27 Carmy : Sure, the Americans have every right to do anything to him, as long as it's consistent with what Americans have been preaching all the time, which is
28 Novair_332 : We´re lucky that he wasn´t in Sweden, "lifetime" in prison is 12 years here.. and you get a TV, Video, stereo and a phone on the room.
29 CPDC10-30 : I think Osama being killed is the last people most people in the intelligence world want. Look at how useful Ahmed Ressam's testimony has been in loca
30 Banco : OK, just to close down on the UK, England thing - the United Kingdom is made of four countries, England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. The Eng
31 Post contains images Ryanb741 : From what I've been hearing on the news the only coverage the US Special Forces have been getting is being blown to smithereens by their own bombs....
32 Post contains images Banco : Yes, true enough Ryanb741! I always find it amazing that the country that possesses the BBC can also produce The Sun!!!
33 Scotty : Cheers Banco! Re Bed Linen, no matter what eventually happens to him, I'd like to see him before a court (preferably in the US) to hear what he has to
34 Post contains links Ryanb741 : It's all been sorted out now - click on the link below: http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/12/10/ret.hoon.laden/
35 Post contains images Capt.Picard : So is this a case of 'Hoon the goon'? Regards
36 Post contains images Banco : Or Hoon the loon?
37 Scotty : End of topic, looks like. Now, who wants to talk about a big meeting at MAN again next year??
38 Alpha 1 : I'd rather talk about if Hepkat was expressing his own view, that he'd have a problem if the U.S. executes Bin Laden for ordering the murder of thousa
39 Alpha 1 : HUS9746, apparently you live under a rock. A video tape was just uncovered recently showing him talking in-depth about the attack shortly after it too
40 Post contains images Eal401 : Given the slating I received for directing critisicm at the US recently, I could make some VERY interesting comments about some of the responses above
41 Alpha 1 : Given the slating I received for directing critisicm at the US recently, I could make some VERY interesting comments about some of the responses above
42 Post contains images Ryanb741 : I think if we catch Bin Laden we should hand him over to the US 'nearly dead' if you catch my drift. Sure, OBL may be missing an arm or two, sure he m
43 Eal401 : To put forward my opinion on the topic, if you read the last line of my post. I'll let the patronising comments about the UK pass, because people are
44 Eal401 : And before anyone thinks about giving out more stick, how about this? UK forces find OBL, but instead of saying anything, radio US forces and let them
45 Post contains images Alpha 1 : Eal401, I think that's precisely what would happen if such a situation arose!!
46 Post contains images Jaspike : There is evidence that he is to blame - a video has been found near Jalalabad which shows a conversation with Bin Laden. It shows Osama laughing and b
47 Prebennorholm : Let's bring those speculations a little further. Imagine that OBL ends up in Britain, and Britain refuses to forward him to the USA. Would that qualif
48 Post contains images GKirk : What is England thinking...??? What a stupid thing to say. Its, as Scotty pointed out, the UK government, If you think we in Scotland and Wales, North
49 Leftseat86 : If I were a US Ranger, I would certainly not hesitate more than 0.0001 seconds to pull the trigger when OBL's head pops up out of his cave....
50 Carmy : That's an interesting thought Preben! Some food for thought there!
51 LH423 : I think the main difference between Afghanistan having him and Britain having him, is that Britain would be trying him, not harbouring him. As much as
52 PHLFlyer : I would rather have him dead or in a UK prison than to have my tax dollars going to pay for his incarceration.
53 Scotty : A few years in the Bar-L would do him no harm. Faced with a few Glasgow chibbers, he'd wish he was back in his cave.
54 Baconcorde : Just kill the bastard on site. Problem solved. It will make for some nice holiday entertainment.
55 Hkgspotter1 : Thats what I like about us Brits..... We do think. Live in jail is a much harder thing to suffer then death.
56 PPGMD : God damn it, I got though half this thread before I got pissed off. Never mind the fact that this man ordered the death of over 5,000 American citizen
57 FDXmech : Scotty, what's a "Glasgow Chibber"?
58 G-KIRAN : .....USA, that has helped liberate the countries in Europe Not the brits mate!! Do you know what they should do.They should offer 2 months leave and $
59 Post contains images GKirk : If you were Bin Laden and would rather try your luck out with a US Soldier or a Glasgow Chibber, you would have more chance against the Glasgow Chibbe
60 Alpha 1 : I'm still waiting for Hepkat to clarify his earlier statement. I'm really interested to know the answer to the question I posed. And Hkgspotter1, do y
61 Post contains images GDB : If it was the SAS who caught him, or more likely killed him, what would Hollywood do? I bet they've got a few TV and cinema movies in the pipeline now
62 Travelin man : All this talk of "capturing" Osama is hilarious. We are not dropping "bunker buster" bombs or Daisy Cutters at the entrance to his caves in order to c
63 Post contains images Leftseat86 : What if we accidentally bomb the entrance to his cave, leaving him to starve to death?
64 Lambourne : I hope the UK forces don't get to bin Laden first because the courts in this country being the joke that they are, would probably find him not guilty.
65 PPGMD : Ok here I ask about the validness of this convention, a man that kills 5,000+ people and is happy about it, do you think that he will be rehabillitabe
66 Hepkat : The death penalty in America is not for revenge instead it is to elminate those that can't be rehabilated. What are you talking about? And who makes t
67 Lan_Fanatic : Do you STILL think Osama is in Afghanistan???? Lan_Fanatic
68 Phlflyer : I'm sure they would still make movies even if the SAS captured Bin Laden. Americans have no problem flocking to every new James Bond movie that comes
69 PPGMD : The man has practiclly declared war on the United States. Do you think that he can be rehabillitabed? Just kill him now and get it over with.
70 Banco : I think there may be slight misunderstandings here. Not all those in prison are deemed to be open to rehabilitation. Remember that if there is no deat
71 Eal401 : How about life imprisonment for each death on Sep 11? Assuming 4,000 deaths and a "life" sentence of 25 years, that would be a sentence of 100,000 yea
72 JetService : If captured alive by the UK, they would be hand him over to the US. No doubt in my mind. But he won't be captured alive. He's a dead-man by the new ye
73 Post contains images Superfly : Morning JetService! For some reason your post reminded me of a Bon Jovi song. Oh well, his ass is grass any way you look at it.
74 GDB : Who know where Bin-Liner is? But there's one good reason why he may still be in Afghanistan, protected by his most trusted fighters. The $25 Million r
75 LH423 : Going back a while in the discussion I posted something in retaliation to what another member had said about American knowledge of geography after a t
76 PanAm747 : Ok, I understand. But, when people make comments like "all Americans are stupid" of course people are going to get upset.
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