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Throwing Tepid Support To Mr. Bush's Iraq Strategy  
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 1677 times:

I just got done reading the President's speech on redefining our mission and strategy in Iraq.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/01/10/bush.transcript/index.html

After reading it carefully, I've come to the conclusion that this nation must give it's support to this strategy that the President has outlined.

I do not know if it will work-I am skeptical, that, at this late date, almost 4 years after we invaded Iraq, that it may be "too little, too late", but, for the sake of the Iraqi people, the region-and for our nation, I see no other choice but to go forward.

The costs of staying may be very high. We'll see more violence, more Americans and Iraqi's killed by the senseless rampages, and it'll cost this nation billions more, that's true.

But to pull out, would be to condemn the Iraqi people to a civil war that would kill numbers that would be staggering; it would ruin what chance Iraq has to make it in a world without Saddam Hussein; and it would inviate Iran and Syria to come in, partition the nation up, put in a radical Islamic government, and make Iraq a safe haven for worldwide Islamic terrorism.

That is a cost that I don't think we should be willing to pay. We cannot pull out now-we owe it to the Iraqi people, and we owe it to those men and women in uniform who have given their lives to give Iraq a chance.

I was against the war. It never should have been fought; but I also think I'm a realist-and I think many Americans are. I think we have no real alternative right now, then to give Mr. Bush the go-ahead with this strategy.

God help us if it doesn't work. I hope most Americans back the President on this one.

88 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTedTAce From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 1666 times:

And so parroting the media begins.

I say give him 4 months, if the Iraqis aren't goosestepping like good little civilians by then get out like a guy gettng sucked into and A-6 engine.

The Iraqi's have been warned we will not be there forever, we need to be people of our word too. If they choose to fuck it up oh well. I'd rather have our troops at home guarding our borders then over there playing sniper bait.


User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 1664 times:

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 1):
And so parroting the media begins.

How can I parrot the media, Ted, when I haven't even watched, read or listened to what anyone in the media is thinking on this. I'm giving you MY thoughts, not the media's, OK?


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20685 posts, RR: 62
Reply 3, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 1660 times:

The increased troop levels are to hold positions that have been cleared, where previously insurgents were allowed to return as troops moved on. This is the hard sell. Where in the president's plan does he outline where the Iraqis will be able to secure their homeland themselves? Right here:

"Our troops will have a well-defined mission: to help Iraqis clear and secure neighborhoods, to help them protect the local population, and to help ensure that the Iraqi forces left behind are capable of providing the security that Baghdad needs."

Okay, good start. Then we find:

"Succeeding in Iraq also requires defending its territorial integrity - and stabilizing the region in the face of the extremist challenge. This begins with addressing Iran and Syria. These two regimes are allowing terrorists and insurgents to use their territory to move in and out of Iraq. Iran is providing material support for attacks on American troops. We will disrupt the attacks on our forces. We will interrupt the flow of support from Iran and Syria. And we will seek out and destroy the networks providing advanced weaponry and training to our enemies in Iraq."

I'd like to know more about this part. It sounds like going up directly against Iran and Syria, which is yet again another change in the reason for conducting the war in Iraq. Not handled properly can bring about the entire region becoming destabilized.

The Iraqis need to seal their borders and provide safety for their own sovereignty, not us.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 1654 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 3):
The Iraqis need to seal their borders and provide safety for their own sovereignty, not us.

They don't have the capacity to do that yet. In that regard, they still need us. If we leave now, the death toll will be unimaginable, and Iran and Syria have a home base to launch new attacks on Israel, the rest of the Arab world, and on the West.


User currently offlineAirCop From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 1644 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
After reading it carefully, I've come to the conclusion that this nation must give it's support to this strategy that the President has outlined.

I came to the opposite conclusion, the president has lied to the American people time after time regarding Iraq, why start believing him now?

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 3):
We will interrupt the flow of support from Iran and Syria.

Naval ship off the coast of Iran, is the US going to be involved in warfare with Iran and Syria also?
The US freed Iraq of Sadam, helped establshed a new government, now is the time to develop an exit plan.
Besides what are you going to tell the troops that will have their tours extended to reach the increase troop level? You did your time, but why don't you stay awhile longer.
Time for the Iraq government to put up or shut up.


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20685 posts, RR: 62
Reply 6, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 1643 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 4):
They don't have the capacity to do that yet. In that regard, they still need us. If we leave now, the death toll will be unimaginable

I realize that, and I'm not saying for us to leave. I'm asking whether we should be up against Iran and Syria, and whether 20K troops is enough to do what the president has outlined. With the buffet he's spread out, it doesn't seem so when you look at everything he has planned.

I could be wrong, but I hope for everyone's sake I'm not. I've heard today that conservative think tanks are saying to impliment everything would need closer to 40K troops.

Where/when do we have the troops with a defined mission that's workable? Our involvement on the Iranian and Syrian borders doesn't sound right.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineTedTAce From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 1640 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 2):
How can I parrot the media, Ted, when I haven't even watched, read or listened to what anyone in the media is thinking on this. I'm giving you MY thoughts, not the media's, OK?

I'm sorry, but your statment sounded errily close to something I heard on the news.


Speaking of the lying media whores...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/

I must of missed it because I did NOT hear him admit to making a mistake. MAYBE he said 'we', but he didn't admit to a personal mistake as the graphic intimates.

For Bush to be anything other then a puppet he needs to stand tall and say 'I'm sorry' and 'I made a mistake'. Not hide behind this 'we' shit.


User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 1635 times:

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 7):
must of missed it because I did NOT hear him admit to making a mistake.

Here's a paragraph from the speech:

"The situation in Iraq is unacceptable to the American people - and it is unacceptable to me. Our troops in Iraq have fought bravely. They have done everything we have asked them to do. Where mistakes have been made, the responsibility rests with me."

The admission is about 18 months too late, but to hear this president EVER admit he did anything wrong is astounding.

And AirCop, I realize what you say about Bush lying about Iraq-the very falsehoods were used to get us into this mess, but I don't think we have a choice, for the reasons I outlined. We OWE it to the Iraqi people. We have to make the continued attempt to make it something that can work, or it we will have lost thousands of Americans for nothing.

[Edited 2007-01-11 05:15:20]

User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20685 posts, RR: 62
Reply 9, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 1631 times:

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 7):
I must of missed it because I did NOT hear him admit to making a mistake. MAYBE he said 'we', but he didn't admit to a personal mistake as the graphic intimates.

From the speech:

"Where mistakes have been made, the responsibility rests with me."



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineGuitrThree From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 2050 posts, RR: 8
Reply 10, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 1625 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 8):
I don't think we have a choice, for the reasons I outlined. We OWE it to the Iraqi people. We have to make the continued attempt to make it something that can work, or it we will have lost thousands of Americans for nothing.

 checkmark 

But not only that, the Iraqi people OWE it to us to work to stand on their own.
Winning in Iraq could move the world in the right way.
Losing in Iraq WILL move the world in the wrong way.

I'm not sure if the Democrats winning in November was the reason why Bush admitted mistakes. Maybe, maybe not, but can we all agree that pulling out right now WILL ensure a loss, which ENSURES the middle east will be that much more dangerous?



As Seen On FlightRadar24! Radar ==> F-KBNA5
User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 1624 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
I've come to the conclusion that this nation must give it's support to this strategy that the President has outlined.

I would concur, however, it's a couple years too late.

But, PotUS will get the votes (despite kennedy) and the support. As was mentioned on CNN, this is "Double or Nothing".

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
But to pull out, would be to condemn the Iraqi people to a civil war that would kill numbers that would be staggering; it would ruin what chance Iraq has to make it in a world without Saddam Hussein; and it would inviate Iran and Syria to come in, partition the nation up, put in a radical Islamic government, and make Iraq a safe haven for worldwide Islamic terrorism.

That is a cost that I don't think we should be willing to pay. We cannot pull out now-we owe it to the Iraqi people, and we owe it to those men and women in uniform who have given their lives to give Iraq a chance.

Well said my friend. What is the cost of either option. We can pay a little now, or we can pay dearly - on all sides - for a very very long time to come.

Iran won't screw the pooch overtly, Israel will nuke their ass . . . but Syria already is most likely. As I've maintained from Day 1, wanna find any iraqi WMD, we're looking in the wrong place. ***

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 1):
The Iraqi's have been warned we will not be there forever, we need to be people of our word too.

Spot on Ted T . . . it's time for the Iraqi's - wait . . . PAST time for the Iraqi's to put up or shut up. We handed them an opportunity, they can squander it or profit by it. Not our call any longer.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 3):
I'd like to know more about this part. It sounds like going up directly against Iran and Syria,

Rhetoric at the moment I believe. Why? Several schools of thought here:

First. IF - IF - IF we decided to strike either of them, with what Army, Air Force, Marine Corps do you (not you, but you generically) think we oughta use against them. Thanks to Bush1 and Clinton we're stretched beyond capacity. Unless you can suddenly pull a Str Wars Clone Army outta your ass, we're rather stuck at the moment. I'm even curious what 21,500 troops we're gonna send back that have had appropriate rest and refit time.

Second. What equipment are we going to use. The Abrams tanks are worn to failure, Our Hummers suck. There aren't enough Strykers. Airplanes need parts and pieces. We can't get enough 5 ton fuelers into the combat theater. On and on.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 3):
The Iraqis need to seal their borders and provide safety for their own sovereignty, not us.

Should have done that a VERY long time ago. If it moves, shoot it.

Quoting AirCop (Reply 5):
I came to the opposite conclusion, the president has lied to the American people time after time regarding Iraq, why start believing him now?

I'm discounting the word lie - for the sake of my point to be made here - because I don't believe it.

The PotUS has finally done something that members here have been harping on him to do for at least as long as I've been a member here . . . and now, even when he does that, it's not enough, or he's still lying, or no one believes him? Now, I don't say I can't blame you . . . . crying wolf long enough make disbelievers out of a lot of folk. But let me ask this, how do you know he finally doesn't have his head on right about this. Afterall, his primary military man is gone - RUMMY - replaced by a man that made no bones about a need for a change in tack and direction in Iraq during his confirmation hearings?

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 7):
I must of missed it because I did NOT hear him admit to making a mistake

Yes, he did. And his quote was something along the lines of "For those mistakes the responsibility lies with me".



** Yeah Yeah, I've been told before Assad and Saddam didn't get along worth a hoot, however . . . . when the crap hits the fam and it's a muslim country against the west - like all all things human, other Muslim countries come running. Ditto for anyone. US and UK for instance.


User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 1623 times:

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 10):
But not only that, the Iraqi people OWE it to us to work to stand on their own.

I disagree. They owe it to THEMSELVES, and no one else, GT. They don't owe squat to us, far as I am concerned. WE invaded THEIR country, and basically dictated what they would become.

They have a debt of honor not to us, but to all the thousands of Iraqi's who died under Saddam's boot, and who have died in this sectarian violence.

I did read where one lawmaker called this Mr. Bush's "Hail Mary" play. I laughed it off at first, but on second consideration, I think he's right. The entire four years we've spent in Iraq now, probably for better or worse, hinges on this strategy, and this course of action.

If it works, then Iraq COULD become the standard for a new course in the region. If it fails, it could lead to even a bloodier future for the region, what with the likes of Syria, Iran, al Qaeda, Hezbollah and Hamas in the region.

Let's all pray-no matter what our view on it-that the former, in some form, is the outcome.

[Edited 2007-01-11 05:31:51]

[Edited 2007-01-11 05:34:25]

User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 1615 times:

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 10):
I'm not sure if the Democrats winning in November was the reason why Bush admitted mistakes. Maybe, maybe not,

I'm sure it had something to do with it. I'm also sure that his new SecDef has something to do with it. HONEST answers, rather than Rumsfeld's arrogant bullshit.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 12):
They have a debt of honor not to us, but to all the thousands of Iraqi's who died under Saddam's boot, and who have died in this sectarian violence.

 checkmark 


User currently offlineGuitrThree From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 2050 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 1611 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 12):
I disagree. They owe it to THEMSELVES, and no one else, GT. They don't owe squat to us, far as I am concerned. WE invaded THEIR country, and basically dictated what they would become.

I'm not sure.. I look at it us giving them the opportunity to have, as close as they can, a democracy free of threats of Saddam Hussein.

A few short years ago if they spoke out they could get their hands cut off, or even worse, death.
A few short years ago, thousands of people were being thrown into mass graves.
A few short years ago, millions were living in poverty with no hope of getting out, while Saddam lived in palaces.

Today, all of those are gone. Is it bad there today? Sure, but at least they have hope, if they all get to work and build their country like our ancestors did here. I see it as them needing to work to help us get out in return for freeing them.



As Seen On FlightRadar24! Radar ==> F-KBNA5
User currently offlineTedTAce From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 1611 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 8):
Where mistakes have been made, the responsibility rests with me."

Furter evidence he's a jack ass. Instead of saying something SIMPLE like 'I made mistakes' Or heaven effing forbid 'I made mistakes and am sorry' He just said there were mistakes and 1/2 heartedly admitted they were ultimately his responsibility.

That's like saying 'I didn't DIRECTLY oder those troops to abuse prisioners at the prison, but I guess that as they acted under my watch I'll take the blame.'
 redflag   redflag   redflag   redflag 

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 12):
They owe it to THEMSELVES

ABSOLUTELY!!


User currently offlineAndesSMF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 1599 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 3):
It sounds like going up directly against Iran and Syria

According to UH60, this has been happening for YEARS already. We weren't just fighting insurgents, we were fighting Syrian and Iranian assistance as well. IIRC, there are satellite pictures of truck convoys from Iraq to Syria from before the invasion.

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
But to pull out, would be to condemn the Iraqi people to a civil war that would kill numbers that would be staggering

Pulling out can not only cause plenty of death in Iraq, but in the entire area.

One example I gave was that if the Kurds decide to declare independence, the Turkish and Iranian armies would be in their doorsteps very quickly.


User currently offlineAsstChiefMark From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 1592 times:

What was President Shit-for-brains like as governor of Texas? Was he as stupid as he is now? And what the hell were the Texans thinking?

Mark


User currently offlineDavestanKSAN From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 1678 posts, RR: 13
Reply 18, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 1571 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 11):
But let me ask this, how do you know he finally doesn't have his head on right about this. Afterall, his primary military man is gone - RUMMY - replaced by a man that made no bones about a need for a change in tack and direction in Iraq during his confirmation hearings?

That's a good question. What disturbs me is when I start thinking about what caused President Bush to 'find a new way forward.' Had the Republicans won control over the Senate and House, I cannot say with confidence that President Bush would have changed his approach to the war. If he 'changed the course,' so to speak, because he was afraid of ramifications from the newly elected Senate and House, then how dedicated is he to resolve the conflict?

Also what we've been hearing from President Bush is that he and his Administration are listening to the Generals, whom told thim the amount of troops was adequate to achieve objectives in Iraq. (Which we know is not the case). So President Bush sending more troops to Iraq is a good sign because you know his top advisors aren't feeding him only what he wants to hear.

My main concern about this new plan is it is based on the Iraqi government, specifically PM Maliki, to take responsibility of a stable Iraq. In his speech, President Bush said:

"I have made it clear to the prime minister and Iraq's other leaders that America's commitment is not open-ended. If the Iraqi government does not follow through on its promises, it will lose the support of the American people - and it will lose the support of the Iraqi people. Now is the time to act. The prime minister understands this."

He may understand it, but what if he does nothing about it? What do you do then? I don't see President Bush pulling troops out of Iraq. So that leaves us back at square one. I hope this isn't the case, however.

Anyway, I'm with you Falcon on all your posts, well done. I am praying this new strategy will work.

All the best to the 20,000 troops going to Iraq, and those already there and all around the world. Stay safe, God speed.

Dave



Yesterday we've sinned, today we move towards God. Touch the sky....love and respect...Safe Star!
User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 1565 times:

Dave, if he Republicans were still in control of the House and Senate that assmonkey Rumsfeld would STILL be running the DoD. Of that I'm certain. Therein lies PotUS failings. He relies too heavily on his staff. Some have served him well . . . Gen Powell . . . some have shat all over him . . .Rumsfeld.

Your concerns about the Iraqi gov't are quite justified.

Time to tell them to put up or shut up . . .

Like I said a year or so ago . . . okay, boyz and girlz of the Iraqi Congress . . . you have XXX amount of time to get our heads out of rectal defilade and make this happen . . . cause, ummmmm, the US is outta here!!!

Have a nice day,
Love the United States Military


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20685 posts, RR: 62
Reply 20, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 1557 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 19):
Like I said a year or so ago . . . okay, boyz and girlz of the Iraqi Congress . . . you have XXX amount of time to get our heads out of rectal defilade and make this happen . . . cause, ummmmm, the US is outta here!!!

Have a nice day,
Love the United States Military

If I toss you 4 bits, would you print it out, stick it in an envelope and mail that off to them?  thumbsup 



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 1551 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 20):
If I toss you 4 bits, would you print it out, stick it in an envelope and mail that off to them?

Hell I don't know, what International Mail First Class Rate to Iraq???

 rotfl 









Of course it's going F, ANC goes F so does his mail dangit.


User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8165 posts, RR: 26
Reply 22, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 1553 times:

An interesting point is the commentary about Iran and Syria. If we are to believe that Al-Maliki is actually capable of bringing the bulls to the gate with regard to the militias, it's hard to say where the power play will go. Assistance and interference are coming from both Syria and Iran, but the former is Sunni and the latter Shia. Apparently the Administration believes that it's possible to both put off interference from the above-mentioned and maintain a cooperative union in post-civil war Iraq.

It's a staggering contradiction with a resolution beyond the capability of either military planning and/or political assistance to the fledgling Iraqi democracy any way you look at it.

Senator Warner said earlier that these assumptions are incredibly risky to make. He said he hopes he's wrong and that the Bush is right. Nothing could be more true, and for the sake of our bravest who find themselves in the middle, the White House had better have a backup plan for when the quicksand shows its depth.

[Edited 2007-01-11 07:07:10]


If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineDavestanKSAN From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 1678 posts, RR: 13
Reply 23, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 1539 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 19):
Time to tell them to put up or shut up . . .

Like I said a year or so ago . . . okay, boyz and girlz of the Iraqi Congress . . . you have XXX amount of time to get our heads out of rectal defilade and make this happen . . . cause, ummmmm, the US is outta here!!!

Have a nice day,
Love the United States Military

 laughing  Sounds funny, but it is actually true.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 20):
If I toss you 4 bits, would you print it out, stick it in an envelope and mail that off to them?

Why is ANC upgrading his computer? HA, get it, bits, like computer......sigh, nevermind.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 21):
Of course it's going F, ANC goes F so does his mail dangit.

With a "US MAIL, RETIRED" hat?? Big grin

Dave



Yesterday we've sinned, today we move towards God. Touch the sky....love and respect...Safe Star!
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20685 posts, RR: 62
Reply 24, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 1535 times:

Quoting DavestanKSAN (Reply 23):
Why is ANC upgrading his computer? HA, get it, bits, like computer......sigh, nevermind.

Oh dang, you've caught us showing our age! Two bits is a quarter, four bits is 50 cents. Big grin



International Homo of Mystery
25 ANCFlyer : I'm not prepared to believe that yet. Given a thousand years of history, I think it's prudent to wait and see. Afterall, had it not been for Saddam a
26 Post contains images Aaron747 : Any reasonable person with an understanding of the region should have trouble believing that, given the history as you say. So then, on what basis doe
27 AirCop : After a night of reflection on the president's speech there is still many questions not answered. He didn't talk about disbanding Shilte militas, he r
28 Post contains links RJdxer : We can't do that ourselves with our own borders, to expect the Iraqis to do it is pretty wishful thinking. During previous wars you stayed on until y
29 Bushpilot : As most of you know, I am not a fan of this war. I sat and watched the speech last night with an open mind. There is nothing I want more than to come
30 Jaysit : The Bush girls should be sent to Iraq to entertain the troops and keep up their "morale." Among other things. There's no reason why a bunch of randy A
31 AndesSMF : As an additional thought, has the rise in oil prices since the invasion not given Iran more money to create the havoc they had?
32 AeroWesty : Then how do we expect to do it in Iraq?
33 Jaysit : Give me a break. You're totally buying into the propaganda we were fed. This isn't some reality TV show where some fat girl is told that she was give
34 Bushpilot : I generally try to stay out of that debate because when Iran makes money on high oil prices, so does the state of Alaska. Despite that, we pay 4.60 f
35 Dvk : ...AND Rumsfeld, who was obstinately opposed to increasing the size of the military for the past six years
36 Post contains images AGM100 : This war has had one very important achievement IMO. It has defined who the enemies of the civilized world are. Their is no doubt that the religious e
37 Falcon84 : I read again what Mr. Bush said on Wednesday night. And it's pretty sobering, the import behind what he said. We are, for better or worse, at the true
38 Jaysit : Frankly, I think that's a lot of pablum and hooey trotted out by the perpetually campaigning White House. The only chance in hell that Iraq has is to
39 Falcon84 : You can keep thinking that, Jaysit, but I think we're at the final turning point where either the mission succeeds, or it fails, and the result of fa
40 Speedbird747BA : Thatll be Pres. Bush. Cheers, Kyle
41 RJdxer : That's not the question, the question is how do we expect the Iraqis to? Campaigning for what? They have no more elections to win. I'm not surprised
42 LH423 : Hope?! Sure, life sucked under Saddam but at least with Saddam as long as they kept quiet and lived their lives there was little chance that any harm
43 AeroWesty : Okay, great, let's go with that. How DO we expect the Iraqis to do so, so we may leave?
44 Falcon84 : What was that about?
45 Jaysit : Duh. Do you understand what I'm saying here? I'm saying that we broke it, so now we fix it. And that means sticking around for the foreseeable future
46 AeroWesty : It appears he was saying you were disrespectful for calling the president Mr. Bush.
47 Post contains images Falcon84 : I've always called him either "Mr. Bush", or "The President", or "President Bush". All, as far as I'm concerned, signify respect for him and the offi
48 Jaysit : Carpet bomb the country with copies of Playboy featuring hot, naked middle eastern babes. They'll be too distracted to fight. (I'm sure Lebanese wome
49 Post contains images AeroWesty : I'm so glad you're back.
50 Post contains links Bushpilot : We should have a long time ago, he and Al-Maliki are in bed together, and Al-Maliki is totally against this troop surge. He has little interest in br
51 Post contains links and images Connies4ever : Lots of interesting posts in this thread...I can't include my thoughts on all of them, but a few will suffice for now anyway. No one can accuse the F
52 Falcon84 : " target=_blank>http://www.ft.com/cms/s/ef4edfbe-a19....html Wow, that FT editorial pulled no punches, did it. And, frankly, it mirrors my own concern
53 RJdxer : No different than western europe from 1946 to 1990 and Korea from 1953 to present. Germany and the rest of western europe as well as Korea were and a
54 Aaron747 : And on that last note, I'll quote myself again: If we are to believe that Al-Maliki is actually capable of bringing the bulls to the gate with regard
55 AeroWesty : If I'm reading your thoughts on this correctly, then you either advocate a U.S. involvement in regime change in those capitals, or, no matter how man
56 Connies4ever : I understand your concerns, I believe. But Iraq has already suffered unimaginable destruction due to the invasion and resulting insurgency. And as a
57 A332 : ...and to think, all of this nonsense could have been avoided if someone with half a brain and some balls would have told Bush to take a walk and grab
58 Post contains links AndesSMF : My understanding is that the situation in Iran is almost at a boiling point. Unfortunately, with the current emphasis in Iraq, Iran has been somewhat
59 RJdxer : Negative on both counts. I believe the regimes in both Damascas and Tehran will fall on their own given time, Tehran especially if the government sta
60 AerospaceFan : Excellent point, Falcon. On this we agree. I have said in the past that -- if anything -- we should devote more troops to our efforts. And, in the pa
61 AeroWesty : Could you expand upon this point? In terms of the effect upon the region, the driving force behind it, and what you see the best plan to avoid reachi
62 BA : Syria's population might be largely Sunni, but the government is Shia, specifically of the Alawaite sect, which is why it has such close relations wi
63 AndesSMF : To clarify it, you want the boiling point to be reached, that is that the Iranians themselves rise up and throw their mullahs into the heap of histor
64 Connies4ever : "cannot rule out the possibility" is a far cry from objective evidence. And we've seen, on more than one occasion, how sufficiently _incredible_ cred
65 Aaron747 : The key point, especially for American independents and old school Republicans, is that war must serve the national interest first and foremost. It is
66 Post contains images ANCFlyer : Yeah, RUMMYis a moron, and played right into Clinton and Bush 1's plans for force reduction . . .and now - as MANY of us have said- it's biting us in
67 AerospaceFan : I think that a stable Iraq under a democratic form of government serves the interests of the United States. (Mind you, stability for the sake of stab
68 Jcs17 : I supported the Iraq war. I have no doubt that President Bush believed that Iraq had WMD (which I still believe may be proven as true, still). However
69 Aaron747 : The alternative is to show that, when the going gets rough, the U.S. bugs out. Howzat for honoring our commitments, and howzat gonna look when we prom
70 Connies4ever : As a moderator, ANC, you should show the courtesy of quoting accurately, and not somewhat out of context. My statement was: "Iran won't screw the poo
71 ANCFlyer : My bad, I missed the rest of your line in there - I hate that when it happens to me also . . . Moderator status notwithstanding . . . These are tanke
72 AGM100 : I am afraid this may be the only solution left ! It is sad but true , their is little other option than to just crush any opposition. One thing for s
73 Bushpilot : The problem is that the police and military are widely moonlighting in these militias. Go to work-come home strip the uniform, keep your gun and go t
74 AerospaceFan : I think that the gloves are coming off, from what our President has said -- the rules of engagement have changed. This might have an even larger effec
75 Cairo : I think it will be a further waste of fine young Americans fighting for a land and people who would never in a million years fight for America, but I
76 Falcon84 : I couldn't have said it better, Cairo. For once, we agree. The alternative to not trying this, and just pulling out, are terrifying-not only for Iraq
77 AerospaceFan : Bravo, and bravissimo. I think that this is the Administration's last chance to prove that Iraq can be what it hopes it can be. It was said by a comm
78 Connies4ever : Loathe as I am to agree with you, Aero, this seems to be the case, as far as the ROE goes. If I have it correctly, and this is not a given, the 'surg
79 Bushpilot : This is probably true in a mathmatical sense, but it is really only a few neighborhoods fighting. There are from what I understand large parts of Bag
80 Post contains links 11Bravo : The source for this number is the new Army publication: COUNTERINSURGENCY FM 3-24 This manual was just released last month and it is co-authored by t
81 AGM100 : Agreed ,, This goes to a point I made (glos glos) months ago regarding the overall mission in Iraq. My point was that the administration and commande
82 AGM100 : Agreed ,, This goes to a point I made (glos glos) months ago regarding the overall mission in Iraq. My point was that the administration and commande
83 Jcs17 : Oops! I did mean an E-3 or E-8A.
84 SATX : It's nice to see Fal off the fence and firmly on the side where he belongs.
85 NAV20 : Er.......isn't that the exact same sort of thing they just convicted and hanged Saddam Hussein for?
86 AerospaceFan : Considering that the U.S. hasn't conducted much by way of full-scale bombing raids in the last several years in Iraq, much of the destructive power a
87 FDXMECH : This parallels President Johnsons measured and constrained bombing of North Viet Nam (Operation Rolling Thunder) which probably prolonged the war by
88 AGM100 : I should have clarified ,, I was not talking about heavy bombers. I was referring to the firepower available at the squad level. The firepower just c
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