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I Was For It Before I Was Against It.  
User currently offlineUALPHLCS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 2028 times:

In a very Kerryesque flip-flop Congressman Silvestre Reyes the Chairman of the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence was FOR a troop build up on December the 5th of 20,000 to 30,000 troops. NOW that the President has proposed it suddenly it becomes unthinkable.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/inbeltway.htm

Is it any wonder that some people see Democrat Politicians as cynical politicos who are callously using the Military for their own political gain?

91 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8707 posts, RR: 42
Reply 1, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 2010 times:

Quoting UALPHLCS (Thread starter):
Is it any wonder that some people see Democrat Politicians as cynical politicos who are callously using the Military for their own political gain?

In other words, just like the GOP?

Seriously, these "blame it all on the Democrats" threads are getting old, and fast.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineWellHung From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 1994 times:

Lemme tell you about flip-flops... I guess the mission was accomplished before it wasn't.




[Edited 2007-01-18 18:52:25]

User currently offlineAndesSMF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 1982 times:

Quoting Aloges (Reply 1):
Seriously, these "blame it all on the Democrats" threads are getting old, and fast.

Now you know how some of us felt about the "blame it all on the Republicans" thread that are still happening.  biggrin 


User currently offlineAloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8707 posts, RR: 42
Reply 4, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 1974 times:

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 3):
Now you know how some of us felt about the "blame it all on the Republicans" thread that are still happening.

The point being that they held near absolute power for six years, started a highly debatable war, alienated various traditional allies, got into the hottest of waters over both suspected and proven human rights violations, made enemies in the Middle East faster than you can say "boom", I have less of a problem with those than with threads about the Dems who've had the chance to put up a show in Congress for about two weeks.

That said, the general assumption should always be that top-level politics are FUBAR anyway.  Wink



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineUALPHLCS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 1955 times:

Quoting WellHung (Reply 2):
I guess the mission was accomplished before it wasn't

So I guess your saying the that World War II isn't over yet either since the US still has troops in Germany and Japan. Or that the US Civil War didn't end until the 1870's, since the Army occupied the South during Reconstruction.

There is a distinction between the end of offensive operations, and the occupation and reconstruction.

Quoting Aloges (Reply 4):

I didn't blame anything on Democrats. I think its becoming quite obvious to any thinking person that no matter what "solution" the President came up with it wouldn't be right according to Democrats in Congress.

Clearly, the ONLY solution the Democrats want is for all of us to get in the way-back machine and reset the clock to 2003.


User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 1941 times:

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 5):
for all of us to get in the way-back machine and reset the clock to 2003.

Best idea I've heard yet, but rather then "the way-back machine" let's test out the atavachron!




Next suggestion.

Why don't you guys just start an official "Liberal Dems are the Evilist thing on the planet" thread, that would save a lot of band width!


User currently offlineAloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8707 posts, RR: 42
Reply 7, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 1933 times:

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 5):
Clearly, the ONLY solution the Democrats want is for all of us to get in the way-back machine and reset the clock to 2003.

Oh please leave the time machine threads to ASL users!

The first thing that most people would like is George Bush officially admitting he was wrong for invading Iraq. Second, a plan would be good; any plan better than "send troops there, and if that doesn't work, send MORE troops there" would do for the moment. Third, there needs to be some cooperation with other powers in the region. I don't like the fact that peace in Iraq will need negotiations with Syria and Iran, but that's how it is and the Bush admin should work from there and finally kiss all of that pipe dream that told them that all of the Middle East wants democracy goodbye. This is a time for unglamorous pragmatism, which will get everyone a lot further if employed properly.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineAndesSMF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 1927 times:

Quoting Aloges (Reply 4):
That said, the general assumption should always be that top-level politics are FUBAR anyway.

And if we do that, then they will actually fulfill all our expectations.


User currently offlineUALPHLCS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 1908 times:

Quoting Aloges (Reply 7):
and finally kiss all of that pipe dream that told them that all of the Middle East wants democracy goodbye. This is a time for unglamorous pragmatism, which will get everyone a lot further if employed properly.

Wow! Sounds like Munich 1938 to me.


User currently offlineAloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8707 posts, RR: 42
Reply 10, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 1895 times:

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 9):
Wow! Sounds like Munich 1938 to me.

Wow, too! Talk about someone not knowing his history.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineSearpqx From Netherlands, joined Jun 2000, 4344 posts, RR: 10
Reply 11, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 1870 times:

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 5):
So I guess your saying the that World War II isn't over yet either since the US still has troops in Germany and Japan. Or that the US Civil War didn't end until the 1870's, since the Army occupied the South during Reconstruction.

There is a distinction between the end of offensive operations, and the occupation and reconstruction.

And the obvious distinction you're missing (or avoiding) is that in your examples, US troops were involved in limited, if any, active fighting after the surrenders and in no case was a massive influx of troops sent three years after the fact to attempt to gain control of the capitol city and quell a raging insurgency.



"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
User currently offlineABQ747 From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 850 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 1867 times:

Quoting WellHung (Reply 2):
Lemme tell you about flip-flops... I guess the mission was accomplished before it wasn't.

I guess you don't know the true story behind the mission accomplished banner. Of course not, the liberal media won't tell you the truth.



The reason New Mexico is so windy is because Texas sucks and Arizona blows.
User currently offlineAndesSMF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 1865 times:

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 11):

OTOH, at this stage in the game after WWII, the US was in complete control of both countries, no elections had occurred, and most of the countries previous leaders were either dead or in jail. At the same time, the Marshall Plan was fully in effect, and we had no country (except the USSR) who even had any power to oppose us then.


User currently offlineAloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8707 posts, RR: 42
Reply 14, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 1860 times:

Quoting ABQ747 (Reply 12):
Of course not, the liberal media won't tell you the truth.

So what is "de trooth" according to the "proper and unbiased" media? A Fox News link would be appreciated for its entertainment value!

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 13):
OTOH, at this stage in the game after WWII, the US was in complete control of both countries, no elections had occurred, and most of the countries previous leaders were either dead or in jail. At the same time, the Marshall Plan was fully in effect, and we had no country (except the USSR) who even had any power to oppose us then.

Well, the "preparations" for that werejust a little bit different, weren't they?  Wink

[Edited 2007-01-18 20:51:59]


Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7957 posts, RR: 12
Reply 15, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 1843 times:

Quoting WellHung (Reply 2):
Lemme tell you about flip-flops... I guess the mission was accomplished before it wasn't.

I know it's actually sad and not funny at all, but this response made my day. Big grin



I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlineBushpilot From South Africa, joined Jul 2007, 0 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 1838 times:

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 5):
Clearly, the ONLY solution the Democrats want is for all of us to get in the way-back machine and reset the clock to 2003

Novel idea, I am sure there are some democrats who will disagree with the President regardless. In the two party system we find ourselves trapped in, one must work as the opposition, the same thing happened when Clinton was President. I think clearly what the Democrats want, and wanted from the start, is a war, reconstruction, and democracy building that was done right the first time, where people are accountable for thier decisions.
I am willing to go along with the Bush troop surge if it will work. It should have been done from the start. But if we listened to the Bush administration, in 2002, by now, we would be in largely an administrative role helping the Iraqis, we would have found vast stockpiles of WMDs, it would have cost 100billion dollars, oil would be in the $25 a barrel range, and Iran would be shivering at the thought of having us on either side of them.


User currently offlineABQ747 From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 850 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 1833 times:

Quoting Aloges (Reply 14):
So what is "de trooth" according to the "proper and unbiased" media? A Fox News link would be appreciated for its entertainment value!

No, it's not a link from FOX. It is directly from a member of the military.

Quote:
Point of correction as I have firsthand knowledge of this. The "Mission Accomplished" sign was for the Aircraft Carrier itself. They were returning from deployment and sitting off the coast of San Diego offloading their Air Wing.

The sign was to denote that THEY (the Aircraft Carrier) accomplished it's mission. Please don't try and tell me that is not the case. One of my VERY good friends was the Leading Enlisted in charge of the Navigation Department. His guys and gals hung that sign.

As soon as all of this broke, I spoke with him at length about it.



The reason New Mexico is so windy is because Texas sucks and Arizona blows.
User currently offlineBushpilot From South Africa, joined Jul 2007, 0 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 1821 times:

Quoting ABQ747 (Reply 17):
Quote:
Point of correction as I have firsthand knowledge of this. The "Mission Accomplished" sign was for the Aircraft Carrier itself. They were returning from deployment and sitting off the coast of San Diego offloading their Air Wing.

This may be all fine and dandy, but that sign would not have been hung up if the President was not making a speech aboard that carrier as a media stunt.


User currently offlineWellHung From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 1819 times:

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 5):
So I guess your saying the that World War II isn't over yet either since the US still has troops in Germany and Japan. Or that the US Civil War didn't end until the 1870's, since the Army occupied the South during Reconstruction.

There is a distinction between the end of offensive operations, and the occupation and reconstruction.

 rotfl 

Quoting ABQ747 (Reply 12):
I guess you don't know the true story behind the mission accomplished banner. Of course not, the liberal media won't tell you the truth.

 rotfl 

Quoting ABQ747 (Reply 17):

No, it's not a link from FOX. It is directly from a member of the military.

Quote:
Point of correction as I have firsthand knowledge of this. The "Mission Accomplished" sign was for the Aircraft Carrier itself. They were returning from deployment and sitting off the coast of San Diego offloading their Air Wing.

The sign was to denote that THEY (the Aircraft Carrier) accomplished it's mission. Please don't try and tell me that is not the case. One of my VERY good friends was the Leading Enlisted in charge of the Navigation Department. His guys and gals hung that sign.

As soon as all of this broke, I spoke with him at length about it.

 rotfl  A chain email! Did Bill Gates give you $1000 for forwarding that one?  rotfl  rotfl  rotfl 


User currently offlineAloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8707 posts, RR: 42
Reply 20, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 1819 times:

Quoting ABQ747 (Reply 17):
No, it's not a link from FOX. It is directly from a member of the military.

A link would have been nice, but I'm not contesting the accuracy of the quote.

BUT: The entire carrier was abused for a GWB photo op, including the "Mission Accomplished" sign. Just as much as it was likely valid for the specific mission the crew had indeed accomplished, it served as a massive in-your-face placard of triumph on worldwide TV for the Bush admininstration; one that later bit them in the behind nonetheless. They could easily have taken it down for the photo op if that weren't the case.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineABQ747 From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 850 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 1819 times:

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 18):
This may be all fine and dandy, but that sign would not have been hung up if the President was not making a speech aboard that carrier as a media stunt.

That still does not get past what the real purpose of that sign was.



The reason New Mexico is so windy is because Texas sucks and Arizona blows.
User currently offlineAndesSMF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 1814 times:

Quoting Aloges (Reply 14):
Well, the "preparations" for that werejust a little bit different, weren't they?

Yes, but then the question becomes how different would Iraq be if the US had used the same template that was used with Japan and Germany.


User currently offlineAloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8707 posts, RR: 42
Reply 23, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 1808 times:

Quoting ABQ747 (Reply 21):
That still does not get past what the real purpose of that sign was.

That was to provide a nice backdrop for George Bush's speech, mainly.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 22):
Yes, but then the question becomes how different would Iraq be if the US had used the same template that was used with Japan and Germany.

Certainly. They would have needed to adapt that strategy to the country, obviously, but it might have gone a different way than what they did try. Basically, you'll get a desastrous result if you try to reform a country from top to bottom. If you let a civilian administration grow and then return the country to its own citizens, you'll be more likely to succeed.

[Edited 2007-01-18 21:10:05]


Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineABQ747 From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 850 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 1807 times:

Quoting Aloges (Reply 20):
BUT: The entire carrier was abused for a GWB photo op, including the "Mission Accomplished" sign. Just as much as it was likely valid for the specific mission the crew had indeed accomplished, it served as a massive in-your-face placard of triumph on worldwide TV for the Bush admininstration; one that later bit them in the behind nonetheless. They could easily have taken it down for the photo op if that weren't the case.

So it's Bush's fault that he wanted to publicly congratulate them? The only ones who abused this were the media. They cover up the real meaning of that sign and create a false story to trash Bush. Not good.



The reason New Mexico is so windy is because Texas sucks and Arizona blows.
25 UALPHLCS : Unglamous pragmatism is what gave us appeasement, and the bold statement of "Peace in our time." I do know my history. I'm not saying Iraq isn't a me
26 ABQ747 : Once again, that does not change the purpose of that sign.
27 Bushpilot : Its not quite right to compare as the circumstances of that war were entirely different, but some of it remains the same. The template of having the
28 Vikkyvik : Things get misconstrued and blown out of proportion. Look at Kerry supposedly calling the soldiers in Iraq idiots. Clearly not what he meant to say.
29 ABQ747 : It was not a chain e-mail. It was posted on another forum where political debates are frequently held. Even the Bush hating liberals could not respon
30 Aloges : No, it's Bush's fault that he wanted to land on an aircraft carrier, walk around in a flight suit and come off like the best buddy the soldiers ever
31 UALPHLCS : Sure the world has moved on some. But some people haven't. Chamberlain's attitude is still very prevalent. The policy of appeasement has always been
32 Post contains links NoUFO : The true purpose of Bush's appearance on the carrier was to announce that major combat operations in Iraq have ended. http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/
33 Bushpilot : Not just yet, it is currently going on. It is for the players right now to hash out. That is the job of the executive branch. What the leg. does is p
34 UALPHLCS : What then is the meaning of the debate in Congress over the troop build-up? I agree with your assertion. It is NOT the job of Congress to run the war
35 Bushpilot : It is the job of congress to provide oversight of the executive branch, control the budget, and I would hope to question why important things are not
36 ABQ747 : President Bush still never said that the mission in Iraq is accomplished. If he specified something, then the media should specify it also.
37 S12PPL : You can spin anything you want to make it sound like it's really true.
38 AndesSMF : Using your logic, neither WWII nor the Korean War are over, as the US still has troops based there, therefore the 'occupation' has not ended.
39 Aaron747 : It's simply stupefying that anyone with both eyes open can believe this is either accurate or realistic. Regardless of the outcome in Iraq, they are
40 Aloges : Don't need the media for that: Just about a month after that carrier landing that, according to you, was a private party interrupted by the naughty l
41 AndesSMF : So does that mean that we don' try? Sounds nice, except that we already made the choice and are fighting them in other places, besides the US.
42 Bushpilot : AndesSMF, I kinda pick on you during my post, it is nothing personal and I do value your opinion. This is merely for arguments sake. Now that is BS An
43 NoUFO : And why exactly are they still there? Maybe you should learn to differentiate a bit. President Bush's speech was published as a whole and in its orig
44 Post contains images Aaron747 : Oh we certainly try something, but not in Iraq. But who has the guts to do what's really necessary? Too many political liabilities in Washington for
45 AndesSMF : The original mission was accomplished, but the reconstruction required was just beginning, and that process took a very long time. When WWII was over
46 NoUFO : And didn't cause 34,000 civilian deads within only one year. Are you saying that it would have been great had Japan and Germany shown as little troub
47 RJdxer : Can you point that out in the Constitution for me? I'm having trouble finding it. It is plainly stated that the House of Representatives is in charge
48 Aaron747 : That would be an absolute disaster for the image and reputation of the United States - even moreso than what's happened already. This comment qualifi
49 Post contains links and images AndesSMF : In other posts, I have already expressed my opinion that the biggest problems facing Iraq is that Syria and Iran have gotten involved and the US did
50 Post contains images Aloges : Nice to see how you happened to read over this bit: "to liberate an oppressed people, and that mission has been accomplished." I wonder if Iraqis fav
51 NoUFO : I thought you were talking about the treatment of German POWs or insurgents (as far as there were any) after Germany surrendered. Interesting. Shares
52 RJdxer : Not according to the most vocal opponents of the war and by their postings here on A.net, those that I have mentioned including you, who lives in Jap
53 Blackbird : Well there's a reason that polician said he was for it before he said he was against it. When the Republicans had control, they had near absolute powe
54 AndesSMF : To clarify my position. There are some treating what has happened in Iraq as an anomaly in the annals of war. The more history I read, the more I rea
55 RJdxer : Nope, cause the terror he was talking about was the terror created by Saddam against all three groups, the Kurds, the Shiites, and the Sunnis. Today
56 FlyDeltaJets87 : If you would have researched this subject at all, you would have known the "Mission Accomplished" idea was not Bush's idea. Gen. Franks was the one w
57 Post contains links Aloges : Are you trying to say that because the Kurds (15%-20& of the population, source) aren't constantly in the news bombing others, the mission "to libera
58 NoUFO : They do so since 1990. No, that certainly wasn't the reason, at least not the main reason; not by a long shot. The main reason was that they wanted w
59 Post contains images Aloges : Ah yes, the no-fly zones and such... Not only that of the Germans, but most of Europe would have been pretty much lost without aid from the US. "The
60 RJdxer : No but you are evidently trying to put words in my mouth because you can't admit it's true. To do that would be to admit that a population that Hussi
61 Post contains images Aloges : Oh yes, that must be why I was asking you what you were saying... what next, do I have to put disclaimers in front of my questions?! You know, à la
62 NWA742 : You mean a politician, of all people, would pull such things? You....don't say. Regardless of the actual reason why it was put up, what the actual in
63 Post contains images Aloges : Holy shit, we agree! Oh come on. In retrospect, that was as bad of a PR error as can be.
64 UALPHLCS : We haven't had an attack here in five years. I'd say the choice of killing Jihadis in Iraq has made a difference and the it is measurable. Have we ha
65 Post contains images RJdxer : You were not asking whey you followed that with... That is a statement. Are the majority of Shiites and Sunnis trying to shoot and bomb each other? G
66 Post contains images Bushpilot : Well one would have to define attacking. They may not be engaging US troops in firefights in the traditional sense. But when one plants an IED on the
67 UALPHLCS : Sure, but the vast majority of the attacks are against soft civilian population targets.
68 Bushpilot : True, but would you not agree that there is still a war going on?
69 UALPHLCS : There is a war going on with a completely different enemy and therefore a completely different mission is going on. It's as if World War II ended and
70 Bushpilot : What is the mission this week anyways? Which would have been an idea worse than the one about going into Iraq. I will admit the Patton was a hell of
71 Post contains images Aloges : It is one because of all the question marks, right? I'm saying that the 75+% majority in Iraq is still terrorised, not by Saddam and his cronies but
72 Post contains images TedTAce : Both parties suck, too bad you are still on the short bus, but eh, you can take solice in the fact your just like 75% of the other two party cheerlea
73 AndesSMF : Please, you are showing something from 20 years ago as compared to the deals that other countries wanted to make after the UN sactions were to be lif
74 NWA742 : Considering the fact that I still hear people trying to make fun of him for choking on a pretzel these days, anything he does is potentially a bad PR
75 RJdxer : It was as much a question as any one using english as a second language saying "It is warm, yes?" You fly the flag of Germany, but your info says you
76 Post contains images Aloges : No, my profile says I'm a volunteer for a student exchange organisation. I'm what, blaming the media for something? The "liberal" media? OK, that's i
77 Post contains images DavestanKSAN : Hey remember this gem...... Actually President Bush is part of the Liberal media so forget it. Dave
78 Post contains links RJdxer : From your profile: Occupation: medical student Below that it says: Hobbies: student exchange (volunteer) You've explained it now but given the two st
79 Post contains links and images Aloges : WW2 and Iraq have nothing to do with each other. I thought you knew that, Gilligan. Or does every thing in history have to serve as justification for
80 Post contains images RJdxer : You're right, technology has advanced light years beyond WW2. Yet during WW2 reporters like Ernie Pyle got better distribution of their stories of th
81 DavestanKSAN : Just wondering......where's the outrage for this flip-flop? The point I'm making is this. RJ you said the media is responsible for the deteriorating
82 AndesSMF : Then let us all remember this. Talking about whatever wrongs were done before does nothing now. Regardless of what we feel happened before, whether t
83 DavestanKSAN : Of course Andes, that's a great point. However I was showing an example of why support of this War is diminishing. When the CIC contradicts himself h
84 AerospaceFan : Agreed; many of them have grown up in a political milieu that doesn't place as much importance on respect for the opposition as before. The Democrats
85 AndesSMF : War is the most illogical thing humans do. To pretend otherwise is folly. To assume that it will be 'clean' is stupidity. There are many generals who
86 DavestanKSAN : That's a good point as well. But admitting that mistakes have been made is part of the problem as well. That is no excuse for poor planning. You can'
87 AndesSMF : I have never denied this. But it has taken almost 3 years for some to finally start coming to the conclusion that Iran and Syria are instigating far
88 Post contains links and images Aloges : Ah yes... the good old "Shut up, you owe us!" mantra. I am grateful that my country and continent were liberated from the Nazis, with an important pa
89 RJdxer : I'm glad that you are. Then the usual contradiction. So why should you be grateful to anybody since you are from a completely removed generation? Your
90 PanAmOldDC8 : I support the Republicans, however when you screw up you get your ass kicked and quite rightly so Republican President 2008 Republican Senate 2008 De
91 Post contains images Aloges : Yeah... whatever.
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