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Should There Be A Limit On Jail Sentences?  
User currently offline9V From China, joined Aug 2008, 0 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 6 months 4 weeks ago) and read 1698 times:

Today a man who downloaded child pornography to his computer has avoided jail after the home secretary asked judges to limit prison terms due to overcrowding.

BBC News

Courts have been asked to jail only the most dangerous and persistent criminals as the number of inmates in England and Wales hovers around the jail capacity of 80,000.

Will a limit on prison sentencing help solve overcrowding crisis?

40 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAirCop From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (7 years 6 months 4 weeks ago) and read 1695 times:

I remember when I was working some county jails wouldn't accept individuals that I arrested due to overcrowding. Short of rape or murder they weren't going to get booked.

Quoting 9V (Thread starter):
Today a man who downloaded child pornography to his computer

In our courts here in Maricopa County, Arizona, one can receive up to ten years for each picture, so if you have five pictures = 50 years vs. sexually assaulted someone one could get 5-8 years. Now which one presents a greater danger to the community?


User currently offline57AZ From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2550 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 1653 times:

Back in the 1980s, overcrowding in the Tennessee Department of Corrections was so bad that they had a federally mandated population cap. The solution (albeit an expensive one) was to house lower level offenders in county jails and reimburse the counties for the incurred expenses until space could be made available (if possible) in the DOC. This was very expensive for the counties as they had to provide for law library access to the state inmates.

Also, there is a cap on the length of a jail sentence here-11 months, 29 days. Any sentence greater than that requires a committment to the Department of Corrections/Bureau of Prisons. A prisoner may spend more than a year in jail awaiting their trial in a few rare cases, but post conviction they are supposed to transfer to the DOC/BOP as soon as possible to begin their sentences.



"When a man runs on railroads over half of his lifetime he is fit for nothing else-and at times he don't know that."
User currently offlineSpeedbird747BA From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 1644 times:

Build more jails, I mean you cant have criminals running around just because there isnt enough room in the jail.

Cheers.
Kyle


User currently offlineBill142 From Australia, joined Aug 2004, 8442 posts, RR: 8
Reply 4, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 1639 times:

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Reply 3):
Build more jails, I mean you cant have criminals running around just because there isnt enough room in the jail.

No, better crime prevention is what is required.


User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 1639 times:

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Reply 3):
Build more jails, I mean you cant have criminals running around just because there isnt enough room in the jail.

That's usually gonna mean higher taxes for someone. You willing to fork up more for more jail cells?


User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 1634 times:

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 4):
No, better crime prevention is what is required.

I'd love to hear how this one is accomplished... without violating basic human rights, or fantasies about socialist states.


User currently offlineAirCop From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 1631 times:

Quoting 57AZ (Reply 2):
Back in the 1980s, overcrowding in the Tennessee Department of Corrections was so bad that they had a federally mandated population cap. The solution (albeit an expensive one) was to house lower level offenders in county jails and reimburse the counties for the incurred expenses until space could be made available (if possible) in the DOC. This was very expensive for the counties as they had to provide for law library access to the state inmates.

Change this from Tennessee to California in 2007. Article in the Jan 16th edition of the Sacramento Bee describes Gov. Schwarzenegger proposal to raise the minimum state prison term from one to three years..Of course the counties would have to absord the rest even with 20 out of the 58 counties in California already operating their jails under court-imposed population caps. Of course the judges would just hand down longer sentences.


User currently offlineSpeedbird747BA From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 1626 times:

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 4):
That's usually gonna mean higher taxes for someone. You willing to fork up more for more jail cells?

Hey, would I rather pay 1/2% more on my taxes and be safe, or keep that 1/2% and have child molesters and such running around free.? Ill pay.

Cheers,
Kyle


User currently offlineAirCop From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 1611 times:

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Reply 3):
Build more jails, I mean you cant have criminals running around just because there isnt enough room in the jail.

In a 1996 study published by the California Research Bureau they studied the Michigan Correction System, daily cost of inmate in prison was $64.80 compared to regular probation cost of $3.00 per day. (That doesn't include the cost of building a prison. ) California has currently 173,000 inmates in the Department of Corrections, just do the math.

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Reply 8):
and have child molesters and such running around free.?

If you have time, check out Maricopa County, Arizona's sex offender program. First rule most child molesters are family members or someone the victim knows really well. Take that rule, most child molesters if they plea guilty are given a 1 year jail term and then lifetime probation which for the rules are so strict, that doing anything beyond treatment, employment requires special permission. The recidivism rate is extemely low.


User currently offlineNeilYYZ From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 1610 times:

I don't believe that there should be a limit on the number of people who get sent to jail. The courts should determine the sentences based on the laws and precedent set in those similar cases. If a criminal is convicted and it is determined that incarceration is warranted then so be it.

Economics of the penal system should never trump the sentencing options available to the courts. Period.


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8956 posts, RR: 40
Reply 11, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1600 times:

That's like saying to the victim: "Sorry, we are too cheap for justice."


"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineComorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4896 posts, RR: 16
Reply 12, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 1553 times:

I think the idea of Iincarceration as both deterrence and punishment is pretty backward for crimes where you do not need to remove the individual from society. Britain had the problem of overcrowding a few centuries ago, and they just shipped them to Oz - problem solved instantly, a win-win all around!

I would humbly suggest the following:

White Collar Crimes - economic punishment, seizure of property and future income, disbarment from profession.
Violent Crimes - Barter of time in jail for banishment, organ donation.

At sentencing, criminals should be able to bargain thus:

1. Drug Dealing - say ten years or one finger.
2. Sex Crimes - barter time in jail for castration.
3. Capital Crime - loss of sight or limb in exchange for life imprisonment; or participation in high-risk medical or military projects.

Other bargainable items could be loss of citizenship (deportation) and/or dignity. There could be a secondary market for citizenship rights, just like with Taxicab medallions. We do need to have free markets in law enforcement too.

As for the Constitution, I think Life Imprisonment is cruel and inhumane compared to any of the above alternatives. While a few minor amendments to Citizenship rights will be required, it will help bring it in step with modern market economics.

We also needlessly inject middle-class values like Correction, Rehabilitation, and Penance into a situation that should be simpler. There are many creative alternatives to incarceration. In the end, you broke it, you bought it...

I'm hoping my point of view makes sense...


User currently offlineWrighbrothers From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 1875 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 1541 times:

Well, I think our justice system does seem a bit of a joke sometimes, however, it's there to up hold the law. We can't simply turn away people because there isn't enough space, whether you've done something minor or major, you've broken the law, and so be punished respectively, if it means jail, it means jail, not jail 'if there's space free'.
The problem is, our country seems to have so many criminals !
IMHO, there are 2 solutions, build more prisons or improve our system which allows ll this re-education for criminals. Now, both have their ups and downs, but what some people don't get, is that the later doesn't work on everyone, and we can't simply allow pedophiles and rapists to run around, nor can we allow people getting off with less than they deserve.

Another thing is, people who commit minor crimes, are likely to go on and commit more serious crimes. We have to nip things in the bud, and unfortunately, prison is seen as a holiday camp for some people, the simple fact is, in this country, they don't really do anything to work off their time.
I am all for prisoners doing work like cleaning the streets or scrubbing off graffiti, hard, manual labour that gets them out of the jail house or even a basic form of military training (marching, discipline etc, but not using weapons) that install a bit of self worth and pride in-themselves, and actually work off some of their debt to society and makes prison seem less like a holiday camp.
There was a television program called Bad lads army (and there was another other versions of this program) in this country which basically sent criminals to boot camp (anyone who's watched it will know what I'm on about).
I believe this type of military 'boot camp' does good, all of them who made it to the end (which was all bar one or two) came out a better all round person.

The simple thing is, there is no easy solution which everyone will agree with, but one thing's for sure, we need to do something about the situation.

Quoting 9V (Thread starter):
Will a limit on prison sentencing help solve overcrowding crisis?

No, because this will only make the justice system weaker than it is, and this means some people who should go to jail go free.

Quoting AirCop (Reply 1):
Now which one presents a greater danger to the community?

In theory, it's the sexual assaulter, however, it's smaller less serious crimes and criminals, that build up to bigger more serious crimes. Most people who commit serious crimes, commit more minor offences before, and it's these who need to be nipped in the bud to prevent more serious crimes occuring.

wrighbrothers



Always stand up for what is right, even if it means standing alone..
User currently offlineSpeedbird747BA From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 1531 times:

Quoting AirCop (Reply 9):
Take that rule, most child molesters if they plea guilty are given a 1 year jail term and then lifetime probation which for the rules are so strict, that doing anything beyond treatment, employment requires special permission. The recidivism rate is extemely low.

So tell me, just out of curiosity, how do you know if this sex offender is doing. I mean, he/she may not have the permission to say, go play golf, but how would you actually know?

Quoting Comorin (Reply 12):
1. Drug Dealing - say ten years or one finger.
2. Sex Crimes - barter time in jail for castration.
3. Capital Crime - loss of sight or limb in exchange for life imprisonment; or participation in high-risk medical or military projects.

Excellent!!  bigthumbsup 


Cheers,
Kyle


User currently offlineANother From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 1529 times:

Well, I've got a better idea and it will solve a number of problems.

Stay with me please ...

Step 1. Go to Afghanistan and offer to buy up the entire poppy crop for double the market rate. Benefit? Doesn't cost more than a couple (or 10) smart bombs, gets the Afhanis on our side. The Taliban will quickly see that there is a lot more money by beating their AK47s into plowshares. Afghanistan - Problem solved.

Step 2. Take all the poppies home (and maybe buy up some more from other sources) and refine them into clinical drugs. Benefit? More raw material off the market. More jobs for citizens preparing the end product. NHS (in UK) have access to quality products. In the US health costs could come down with access to cheaper drugs.

Step 3. GIVE (free, gratis, no charge) the refinded products to any addict that wants them (controlled conditions - they come in for their fix). Benefit? Druggies have no need to break the law to feed their habit. Drug dealers out of business (how can they compete with free). Incidence of new addiction lower (who's going to hook them). No dirty needles in the street. No HIV/Aids infection from dirty needles. Drugs are 'pure', no more deaths from over dose.

Result? Additcts out of jails, drug pushers out of business, and out of jails. You've probably cleared out 1/3 to 1/2 of the prison population. Lots of room now for remaining black hats.

What do you think?


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8956 posts, RR: 40
Reply 16, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 1522 times:

Quoting ANother (Reply 15):
What do you think?

Nice Big grin Big grin



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineComorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4896 posts, RR: 16
Reply 17, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 1519 times:

Quoting ANother (Reply 15):


It makes a lot of sense  thumbsup 

We can also solve the problem of Prostitution in a similar manner:

1. Legalize.
2. Go down the supply chain and buy in bulk from providers, cutting out the evil middleman.
3. Redistribute to those that either need it or are hooked on it - like shy single people, the elderly, and of course, a.netters...


User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13072 posts, RR: 12
Reply 18, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 1519 times:

In the USA, some reasons for overcrowding in the prisons include:
Excessive and disproportionate sentences for certain crimes, especially for drug related crimes, sex crimes, crimes against children. This is usually due to highly publicized cases pushing for longer sentences, and politicians paying attention to the voters seeing their votes.
'Three Strikes' laws, mandating long terms for some multiple offenders, even if the third strike wasn't a felony level crime, or a lesser felony and leading to a possibly unfair jail sentence term.
Ending of parole to shorten sentences for 'good beheavor', etc, and more sentences without parole.
Mandatory sentences or formulas, taking away the opportunity for Judges to determine a sentence. This happened as for the same crime and under the same circumstances, different Judges gave longer sentences than others, sometimes due to racism reasons. When judges can have some flexibility as to sentences, they may give one more appropriate to the crime, taking into account where a convicted defendant gave information to prosecutors that gets other criminals or the personal circumstances of the criminal.


The Federal and State governments need to review their criminal codes as to available sentences, to return some flexibility to judges, return the availability of parole in some non-violent and lesser drug charges, revision of 'three strike' sentences so the 2nd or 3rd strike penalty would be more proportional to the degree of crime committed. There should be more psychological and psychiatric examination, treatment and help for criminals, as they dispassionately they have much higher than average rates of such problems. We must return the educational programs as most prisoners had a poor education and help for learning disabilities, that prisoners may have also in higher than average %'s.


User currently offlineSpeedbird747BA From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 1516 times:

Quoting ANother (Reply 15):

Not a bad idea, but poppy aint that cheap.

From Article: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070125/ap_on_re_as/afghan_drugs

"enough to make about 670 tons of heroin. That is more than 90 percent of the world's supply and more than the world's addicts consume in a year."

"of the 407,000 acres of poppies that were cultivated in 2006, including 173,000 acres in Helmand province alone, according to U.N. figures."

Thats a lot of poppy dude.

From Article: http://justiceanddrugs.blogspot.com/...01_01_justiceanddrugs_archive.html

"$90 per gram"


Now, using that price, and doing the necessary conversions, that much heroin would cost US taxpayers $54,703,239,822, or almost 55 billion (with a b) dollars, oh and that is PER YEAR, and it looks like ON AVERAGE the Afghan Poppy crop grows 50% (!!!!!!!) per year, meaning next year, it will cost us a 'bit' over 82 billion to keep up. Oh yeas, you wanted to buy at 2X market value. Meaing the figure is now:

$109,406,479,644

Thats a good bit over 109 billion dollars, allowing for the increase in crop for next yr, a bit over 164 Billion dollars.


Thats a lot of moolah baby, a whole lot.


Cheers,
Kyle


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8956 posts, RR: 40
Reply 20, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 1510 times:

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Reply 19):
"$90 per gram"

Those afghan poppy-farmers don't get paid $90 per gram. They'd be out of there by now if that's how much they made.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineAirCop From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 1502 times:

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Reply 14):

So tell me, just out of curiosity, how do you know if this sex offender is doing. I mean, he/she may not have the permission to say, go play golf, but how would you actually know?

The use of survelliance officers, they show up at anytime at the residence/work/school and you better be where you said you're going to be or someone is seeing a judge pronto.


User currently offlineSpeedbird747BA From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 1494 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 20):
Those afghan poppy-farmers don't get paid $90 per gram. They'd be out of there by now if that's how much they made.

Jee-sus Christ.  spit   weeping   cry 

YOURE FREAKING RIGHT!!!!

WHICH MY ENTIRE POST IS GARBAGE!!!!! AHHH!!!!!

Now Ill have to re-calculate using how much they are paid by the ton of poppy, not by how much a seller on the streets of LA makes selling finished Heroin.

The price they are paid, it looks like is about (rough conservative avg from several sources) 200$/1000g

Meaning, that at 2X market price, it would cost us

Price wed be paying is a measly $243,125,510.3

243 million dollars. Pretty cheap, Ive gotta admit.

Quoting AirCop (Reply 21):
The use of survelliance officers, they show up at anytime at the residence/work/school and you better be where you said you're going to be or someone is seeing a judge pronto.

How often do they show up to check?

Cheers,
Kyle


User currently offlineComorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4896 posts, RR: 16
Reply 23, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 1489 times:

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Reply 19):
Thats a lot of moolah baby, a whole lot.

I'm impressed by your analysis! you should be heading to B-school!

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 20):
Those afghan poppy-farmers don't get paid $90 per gram. They'd be out of there by now if that's how much they made.

Exactly.

The way to analyze this is:

1. Commodity price for raw Poppy extract/milk whatever.
2. Add logistics to get to the Opium Farmers Co-op Market.
3. Add cost of processing Opium to Starbucks-grade Heroin.

So all the above costs to be borne by taxpayer.

4. Sell Heroin to Distributor (Starbucks?, Drugstores?) at $5 per pop.

5. Distributor sells 'medicinal' heroin to final consumer at about $10 a pop (= pack of cigarettes).

Cost offset by above revenues to taxpayer. I think the whole program could be done for about $20B a year - less than our War on Drugs.

If we weren't so moralistic, everybody (except drug dealers) wins in the above scenario.


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8956 posts, RR: 40
Reply 24, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 1482 times:

Only problem is that then everyone will want to produce poppy. They would abandon growing whatever legal crops they now grow for the more profitable poppy.

The only real way is to legalize everything. No government intervention. Problem solved.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
25 Post contains images Comorin : Take it easy, it's not like you CRASHED and BURNED!!! Hey, I'm really impressed with both of you . This is what you have to do: 1. Ditch Aviation as
26 AirCop : Could be a couple of times a day, to twice a month, its to keep them guessing. Then the offenders have to submit to a polygraph every six months, if
27 Speedbird747BA : Can they leave the county? Cheers, Kyle
28 N1120A : Do you know how much it costs to house a prisoner for a year? Which is idiotic, given the piss poor state of the California prison system which has s
29 TheSonntag : We need a little bit of both. In any case, limited jail capacity shall not be the question whether someone shall be sent to jail or not. Whether long
30 Speedbird747BA : More than 20K, but less than 25K if my memory serves me well.... Cheers, Kyle
31 Post contains images PPVRA : Ha ha, nice! Thanks!
32 PanAmOldDC8 : Lock them up and throw away the key , as with all offenders. Hang the murders, thereby saving the taxpayers money and don't give the c**p that there
33 ANother : Absolute rubbish. The current system of criminalising drug use is NOT WORKING. We need to think outside the box. Give drugs away to addicts - no more
34 9V : You shoud read a book called The Innocent Man by John Grisham about a guy called Ron Williamson. It will make you think twice about the death penalty
35 PanAmOldDC8 : We don't have one in Canada and we should, it is time that we stop feeling sorry for those who commit crimes. My Aunt was murdered and no one seemed
36 L-188 : No, what it needed is to put the penalty back in penal system. I have an idea, lets offer any prisoner say 1k per year of sentence and a homestead in
37 ANother : Actually it's not fiction, pure or otherwise. A mentally ill man was almost executed for a crime that he didn't commit. But I doubt that you actually
38 PanAmOldDC8 : I have read the book and I still think of it as fiction Second I agree with you on the need for rehab for drug offenders, but the governments need to
39 N1120A : Not in Louisiana. Um, that is the problem. Too much penalty, not enough corrections.
40 RichPhitzwell : In CA, the cost is much higher... maybe I am thinking of inmates on death row vs actually killing them, but it was in the 100's k per yr
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