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Hooray For The Catholic Church! Just For Once!  
User currently offlineCaptLockheed From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2007, 135 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 7 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2056 times:

Even though I am an athiest, just for once the Catholic Church is doing the right thing!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6066440.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6293115.stm

You cannot impose values on people via legislation. It is wrong!

And before someone flames me I am NOT against gay adoption, so don't even go there!

25 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (7 years 7 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2035 times:

Quoting CaptLockheed (Thread starter):
You cannot impose values on people via legislation. It is wrong!

Really, that's what we did when we outlawed slavery and segregation!


User currently offlineRichardPrice From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 7 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2030 times:

Quoting CaptLockheed (Thread starter):

You cannot impose values on people via legislation. It is wrong!

Its got nothing to do with values, its got everything to do with equality.

Why should a body be excused from the rules because their religion says so? Besides, Christianity today is very picky about which rules in the bible they will and will not enforce so it seems childish for them to take a certain stance on some subjects while totally ignoring what the bible says on others.


User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (7 years 7 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2025 times:

Quoting CaptLockheed (Thread starter):
You cannot impose values on people via legislation. It is wrong!

It's not imposing values, it's imposing actions. The Catholic church is taking public money and doing a public service. This goes even beyond Catholic hotels refusing patronage to gay couples: in this case they're taking tax payer's money to do what they do.

The laws of the land, as pass through democratically elected Parliament, state that discrimination based on sexuality is wrong. Very soon, it'll be illegal for adoption agencies to deny couples an adopted child because of their sexuality. If some outmoded religious group has backward views, they are free to have them. But they're not free to act on those views.

This is a slippery slope. Once you allow one set of biggots their right of way soon we'll have people demanding that they can refuse to serve black people in shops, or people saying they don't want to sell products to Jewish people.


User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (7 years 7 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2022 times:

You also have to bear in mind a few things about this case.

Firstly, the Catholic adoption agencies have no problems sending children to gay people, only gay couples.

Secondly, if the Catholic church felt so strongly about the safety of children, why has it systematically and repeatedly acted to cover up the existance of predatory paedophiles within its ranks? Catholics have no right to lecture any member of society about the safety of children.


User currently offlinePanAmOldDC8 From Barbados, joined Dec 2006, 960 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (7 years 7 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2022 times:

Quoting CaptLockheed (Thread starter):
Even though I am an athiest, just for once the Catholic Church is doing the right thing!

I am a Christian and I support seperation of Church and State, I also support gay rights. What they are doing is the same thing as saying that the church should be in all things secular. It is a case of do as I say but not as I do. There can't be seperate rules for one and not the other. The Catholic church whether they are right or wrong do not support Homosexuality in any way, that is their belief. To tell them that they HAVE to accept what the state says is just plain wrong. If they did the same thing everyone would be up in arms. I am not Catholic but my wife is, I am Anglican



Barbados, CWC soon, can't wait
User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (7 years 7 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2012 times:

Quoting PanAmOldDC8 (Reply 5):
The Catholic church whether they are right or wrong do not support Homosexuality in any way, that is their belief.

Their beliefs aren't being questions, their actions are. Not so long ago Christian adoption agencies in South Africa wouldn't give children to blacks.

Anyone can have any belief they want. But actions based on those beliefs shouldn't clash with democratically-made law.


User currently offlineCaptLockheed From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2007, 135 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (7 years 7 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 1992 times:

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 1):
Really, that's what we did when we outlawed segregation!

Really? Where is that on the british statute books?

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 3):
It's not imposing values, it's imposing actions.

No it's not it's about imposing values!!!!! If the Catholic Church beleives homosexuality is a sin it's about imposing YOUR values on them!

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 6):
But actions based on those beliefs shouldn't clash with democratically-made law.

Oh you'd then support the Nuremburgh laws because they were made by a democratically elected government?


User currently offlineRichardPrice From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (7 years 7 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 1987 times:

Quoting CaptLockheed (Reply 7):

No it's not it's about imposing values!!!!! If the Catholic Church beleives homosexuality is a sin it's about imposing YOUR values on them!

If the Catholic Church are going to pick parents based on anything more than whether they would make a good parent, then they shouldnt be dealing with adoption at all.


User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (7 years 7 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 1987 times:

Quoting CaptLockheed (Reply 7):

No it's not it's about imposing values!!!!! If the Catholic Church beleives homosexuality is a sin it's about imposing YOUR values on them!

I'm not imposing my values on anyone. They're free to have their values, they're just not free to act on them when the contravene the laws of the land.

Quoting CaptLockheed (Reply 7):
Oh you'd then support the Nuremburgh laws because they were made by a democratically elected government?

Are you honestly comparing the Nuremburgh [sic] laws to laws created to stop the discrimination of people based on their sexuality? Are you suggesting that all laws passed through Parliament can be disobeyed because at some point in history laws like the Nuremberg ones were made?

The fact is that the Catholic church has to act within the law. If it doesn't like it, it can try and gets its leaders elected to government. That's the way democracy works. There should be no special dispensation for any group...especially one that's shown such disdain for the safety and human rights of children in the past.

[Edited 2007-01-28 18:36:05]

User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20535 posts, RR: 62
Reply 10, posted (7 years 7 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 1977 times:

Quoting CaptLockheed (Thread starter):
Even though I am an athiest, just for once the Catholic Church is doing the right thing!



Quoting CaptLockheed (Thread starter):

And before someone flames me I am NOT against gay adoption, so don't even go there!

What is the old saying, the enemy of my enemy is my greatest ally? You proclaim to be an athiest who is for gay adoption, but yahoo, isn't it great that the Catholics want to be against it.

Dude, you really need to rethink your premise and argument, then come back and restate it.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineCaptLockheed From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2007, 135 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (7 years 7 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 1971 times:

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 9):
If it doesn't like it,

Tha's the point! It isn't and it's stopping! And good for them! Thats why thier admrable they are actually sticking to their view, which is a little different to the dildo in charge of this country who has never stuck to his!

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 9):
Are you honestly comparing the Nuremburgh [sic] laws to laws created to stop the discrimination of people based on their sexuality? Are you suggesting that all laws passed through Parliament can be disobeyed because at some point in history laws like the Nuremberg ones were made?

No,you don't seem to understand,YOU said that all laws were sacred that were passed by democratically elected government. What you actually meant was laws that YOU supported.


User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (7 years 7 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 1953 times:

Quoting CaptLockheed (Reply 11):
Thats why thier admrable they are actually sticking to their view, which is a little different to the dildo in charge of this country who has never stuck to his!

The 'little dildo' in charge of the country is democratically elected. If you don't like him, feel free to vote against Labour at the next election. The Catholic church isn't elected and should have no say in the way the country is run.

Skinheads might also 'stick to their views' too, does that make them admirable?

Quoting CaptLockheed (Reply 11):

No,you don't seem to understand,YOU said that all laws were sacred that were passed by democratically elected government. What you actually meant was laws that YOU supported.

Laws passed by democratically elected government have a lot more relevance
and validity than 'ideas' put forward by the Church.

How can an atheist who supports gay rights support the 'right' of the Church to illegally discriminate against gay people?


User currently offlineSolnabo From Sweden, joined Jan 2008, 852 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (7 years 7 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 1941 times:

Every religion is bigott, narrowminded and full of no-no´s . I´ve never heard of a liberal openminded religion, have you?

Stay atheist!!

Micke//  twocents 



Airbus SAS - Love them both
User currently offlineCaptLockheed From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2007, 135 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (7 years 7 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 1936 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 10):
You proclaim to be an athiest who is for gay adoption,

No, I said I was an Athiest who, wasn't against gay adoption! and I'm not - l couldn't actually give a damn about gay adoption! It won't cause me lack of sleep one way or t'other.

What bothers me is a Prime Minister of my country who is married to a Catholic, sends his children to a Catholic school, appoints a religious (Catholic) nutter to Education Secretary who then enables this sort of legislation!

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 10):
Dude, you really need to rethink your premise and argument, then come back and restate it.

Yes, I confess, I'm actually a Grand Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan.

That's what you wanted me to state wasn't it?


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20535 posts, RR: 62
Reply 15, posted (7 years 7 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 1919 times:

Quoting CaptLockheed (Reply 14):
That's what you wanted me to state wasn't it?

No, what I wanted you to state was this:

Quoting CaptLockheed (Reply 14):
What bothers me is a Prime Minister of my country who is married to a Catholic, sends his children to a Catholic school, appoints a religious (Catholic) nutter to Education Secretary who then enables this sort of legislation!

You wanted to make a Blair rant, but you disguised it as a Catholic/gay adoption issue. Deception of the worst kind.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (7 years 7 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 1912 times:

Quoting CaptLockheed (Reply 14):
What bothers me is a Prime Minister of my country who is married to a Catholic, sends his children to a Catholic school, appoints a religious (Catholic) nutter to Education Secretary who then enables this sort of legislation!

I'm confused. Do you not like Tony Blair because his wife is a Catholic? Do you not like Ruth Kelly because she is a Catholic?

You want the Catholics to be able to act on their beliefs, but you don't approve of Catholics on office? Or are you cross that a Prime Minister with such ties to Catholocism doesn't allow Catholics to act on their beliefs?


User currently offlinePanAmOldDC8 From Barbados, joined Dec 2006, 960 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (7 years 7 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 1912 times:

Quoting Solnabo (Reply 13):
Every religion is bigott, narrowminded and full of no-no´s . I´ve never heard of a liberal openminded religion, have you?

Stay atheist!!

Micke//

Yes Anglican



Barbados, CWC soon, can't wait
User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (7 years 7 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 1898 times:

Quoting CaptLockheed (Reply 7):
Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 1):
Really, that's what we did when we outlawed segregation!

Really? Where is that on the british statute books?

First of all, it is really rude of you to edit someone elses quote.

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 1):
Really, that's what we did when we outlawed slavery and segregation!

Now to answer this:

In May 1833 Lord Stanley presented a plan to Parliament which finally passed into law on August 29. In essence, the new legislation called for the gradual abolition of slavery. In the space of some 46 years, between 1787 and 1833, Britain had not only outlawed the slave trade but also abolished slavery throughout her colonial possessions
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british...pire_seapower/antislavery_05.shtml


BTW, I was not commenting on British law, but your point below.

Quoting CaptLockheed (Thread starter):
You cannot impose values on people via legislation. It is wrong!


User currently offlineRammstein From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (7 years 7 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 1896 times:

Quoting Solnabo (Reply 13):
Every religion is bigott, narrowminded and full of no-no´s . I´ve never heard of a liberal openminded religion, have you?

From my point of view, being a agnostic grown in a Catholic family, living in a country where after the executive, the legislative, and the judicial powers there is the Vatican (but not elected by anyone), I can only agree with you.


User currently offlineJalto27R From United States of America, joined May 2004, 857 posts, RR: 14
Reply 20, posted (7 years 7 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 1885 times:

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 9):
The fact is that the Catholic church has to act within the law. If it doesn't like it, it can try and gets its leaders elected to government. That's the way democracy works. There should be no special dispensation for any group...especially one that's shown such disdain for the safety and human rights of children in the past.

Completely true. If there are exemptions to law, then a society governed by them cannot function.

Mike


User currently offlineCaptLockheed From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2007, 135 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (7 years 7 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 1850 times:

Sorry, just had to put my daughter to bed!

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 16):
I'm confused. Do you not like Tony Blair because his wife is a Catholic? Do you not like Ruth Kelly because she is a Catholic?

Very, clever now I'm anti-Catholic & anti-gay!

No, I dislike Tony Blair because he kills people for political gain, I dislike Tony Blair because he is a HYPOCRITE, I dislike Tony Blair because people like you let him off his crimes because he enacts legislation like this, - because it fits your views on what the world should be like - what the F**k he's killed 600,000 iraqis? - gays can adopt!! - guy must be pretty good after all!! we'll forget those Iraqis after a bit...

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 18):
First of all, it is really rude of you to edit someone elses quote.

If I did that I apologise, It was done as a mistake - I didn't actually realise you could!


User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (7 years 7 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 1843 times:

Quoting CaptLockheed (Reply 21):
No, I dislike Tony Blair because he kills people for political gain, I dislike Tony Blair because he is a HYPOCRITE, I dislike Tony Blair because people like you let him off his crimes because he enacts legislation like this, - because it fits your views on what the world should be like - what the F**k he's killed 600,000 iraqis? - gays can adopt!! - guy must be pretty good after all!! we'll forget those Iraqis after a bit...

Regardless of my views on Tony Blair and your little rant notwithstanding, Labour were elected back into power after the war in Iraq. Personal views about Tony Blair, or even the Iraq war, doesn't affect individual bits of legislation.

Let's make it more simple. Do you support the right of homosexual couples to adopt children? Do you think that individual organisations should be exempt from the law?


User currently offlineCaptLockheed From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2007, 135 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (7 years 7 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 1832 times:

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 22):
Labour were elected back into power after the war in Iraq.

how is that even relevant? Remember, most people in this country are Homophobic. You don't even want to go down that street!

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 22):
Personal views about Tony Blair, or even the Iraq war, doesn't affect individual bits of legislation.

Yes it does, everything he touches is corruption!

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 22):
Let's make it more simple. Do you support the right of homosexual couples to adopt children? Do you think that individual organisations should be exempt from the law?

I've stated that within this thread many time - I really don't care - it's an irrelevance in my life. Gay adopters can live for ever or they can die within the hour - I don't care..

Should the government force people to do things against their will - no! Remember once you start going down this street there is no stopping it! Pro gay legislation one year anti the next!


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20535 posts, RR: 62
Reply 24, posted (7 years 7 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 1831 times:

Quoting CaptLockheed (Reply 23):
Remember, most people in this country are Homophobic.

Source?



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineSrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 25, posted (7 years 7 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 1825 times:

This thread is getting off-topic and a bit heated, so it is being locked.

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