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Holocaust Memorial In Berlin Is Urinal  
User currently offlinePanAmOldDC8 From Barbados, joined Dec 2006, 960 posts, RR: 1
Posted (7 years 6 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2119 times:

Holocaust memorial in Berlin is being used as urinal by Neo Nazi's and Tourists, this was quoted in the London times
Don't we value anything anymore or is it do what you want and they are no penalties to pay?

[Edited 2007-01-30 15:23:56]

[Edited 2007-01-30 15:31:08]


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24 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7943 posts, RR: 12
Reply 1, posted (7 years 6 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2060 times:

To say it boldly and straight: The Berlin Holocaust/Shoa Memorial is no urinal!
It's a memorial.

I have no idea how often you have been to Berlin recently, but the small number of violations actually came as a positive surprise. Due to the size and openess of the memorial (it's practically impossible to control the area), people (myself included) expected to see swastikas soon but were proven wrong.

There are violations, the most frequent is that people hop from one stone slab to the next, which not appreciated, although Peter Eisenman had nothing against it.

And the mere guess that a**holes who actually use the memorial as urinal won't have to pay a fine is ridiculous.

[Edited 2007-01-30 15:50:47]


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User currently offlineNosedive From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 6 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2051 times:

It's also a sunbathing station in summer. Personally, I find the Jewish Museum of Berlin a far more appropriate memorial to the Holocaust, even if the museum encompasses more than the Holocaust.

User currently offlineUALPHLCS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (7 years 6 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2028 times:

If Neo-Nazis are pissing on the Holocaust Memorial that means that they are trying to put down what happened. Which means that they can't deny that it happened.

They get caught in a logical trap, how can they denigrate a memorial to something they don't think happened.

In other words by doing what they are doing they are inadvertently pissing their own Holocaust denial down the drain.

Which isn't surprising considering they are a bunch of morons.


User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7943 posts, RR: 12
Reply 4, posted (7 years 6 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1996 times:

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 3):
If Neo-Nazis are pissing on the Holocaust Memorial that means that they are trying to put down what happened. Which means that they can't deny that it happened.

As much as I would love to agree, your logic appears to be a bit flawed.
To urinate on the memorial could still mean that they consider the Shoa a complete farce, something that didn't happen.

However, some Nazis claim that "only" 2 or 3 million Jewish people had been killed, as if that would sanctify Hitler and his henchmen.
Others are outspoken supporters of the so called "Endloesung" and wish Hitler had succeeded. The latter ones are certainly the most dangerous.

[Edited 2007-01-30 16:48:54]


I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlineTNNH From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 219 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (7 years 6 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1988 times:

yeah UAL.. dont think your right about that one...

they could simply be thinking.. "What is this bullshit lie you have made against our heroes? The holocaust never happened, why are you memorializing it? This is all BS... *piss* *piss*

TNNH


User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13040 posts, RR: 12
Reply 6, posted (7 years 6 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1962 times:

Seems to me that there needs to be better security at the Berlin Holocaust Memorial site. It is a public area, so of course no one should be uninating there (except in designated toilet facilities) as is just generally illegal and is a descecration of a historical monunment. They shoudn't be sunbathing there either or be used by visitors except in the most respectable way. It is a historical acknowlegment of one of the most obscene acts of a government in the last century and must be given the deepest respect.

User currently offlineRammstein From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (7 years 6 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1952 times:

Quoting PanAmOldDC8 (Thread starter):
Holocaust memorial in Berlin is being used as urinal by Neo Nazi's and Tourists, this was quoted in the London times
Don't we value anything anymore or is it do what you want and they are no penalties to pay?

In my opinion I would take a bit of attention before taking out the racism card.

Talking about Italy, there are idiots pissing all over streets, monuments and fountains (and these objects don't necessary have an intrinsic political or racial value). Yes, there are penalties to pay, but policemen can't be busy all the night following every jerk that walk in the street.


User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 8, posted (7 years 6 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1936 times:

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 6):
must be given the deepest respect.

such objects need to be guarded permanently, like THIS object (tomb of President Gamal Abdel Nasr) :
-

where nobody urinates ! but on the other side of the building (behind it), school-children can play football just as wished for by that statesman
-


User currently offlinePanAmOldDC8 From Barbados, joined Dec 2006, 960 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (7 years 6 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1936 times:

Quoting Rammstein (Reply 7):
In my opinion I would take a bit of attention before taking out the racism card.

I wasn't using the racism card but just wondering why this urinating nonsense is going on. We had a similar problem here in Canada three young men were photographed urinating on our War Memorial in Ottawa. The Police caught the 3 people one was 15 years old. The Vets brought them all into the legion and talked to them, the judge gave them all 6 months of community service at the memorial as tour guides. They apologised to the Vets and we forgave them. I know they are not enough Police in any country to patroll everywhere, they have a herd enough time with what is on their plates to deal with scum like this



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User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7943 posts, RR: 12
Reply 10, posted (7 years 6 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1913 times:

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 8):
such objects need to be guarded permanently

The memorial is guarded, I don't know if 24/7, but at daylight it is - not by police with submachine guns, but they will simply ask you to stop it if you are taking a sunbath or climb on one of the concrete slabs.

Quoting PanAmOldDC8 (Reply 9):
We had a similar problem here in Canada three young men were photographed urinating on our War Memorial in Ottawa.

That's a bit naive, sorry. Not only can't you compare size and layout of both memorials, you would have to appeal to the conscience of drunken tourists and Nazis. Good luck with that.

And if you have the impression that there's one urinating on one of the slabs every day, you can rest assured, it's really not that bad.



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User currently offlinePelican From Germany, joined Apr 2004, 2531 posts, RR: 8
Reply 11, posted (7 years 6 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1902 times:

The holocaust memorial isn't a historic monument. It is a place build just a few years ago as *surprise* a memorial. It was meant that people wander between the steles. It's not easy to guard this maze like place.

pelican


User currently offlineAGM100 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 5407 posts, RR: 16
Reply 12, posted (7 years 6 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1872 times:

The memorial is truly a wonderful statement of how the German people have progressed since the war. Other cultures and governments should learn a lesson from this. Every nation and people have ugly chapters in their past , accept it with open and honest remorse.

I would guess that the "urinators" are mere hooligan types , and do not represent the vast majority of the German people.



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User currently offlineSlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 68
Reply 13, posted (7 years 6 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1860 times:

Quoting PanAmOldDC8 (Thread starter):
Holocaust memorial in Berlin is being used as urinal by Neo Nazi's and Tourists



Quoting Rammstein (Reply 7):
Talking about Italy, there are idiots pissing all over streets, monuments and fountains (



Quoting PanAmOldDC8 (Reply 9):
We had a similar problem here in Canada three young men were photographed urinating on our War Memorial in Ottawa. The

And the evening news here in the US carried the story that before the newly-restored Statue of Liberty could be unveiled a few years ago they had to polish out the urine stains left by the very workmen who were restoring it. Seems it was too much trouble for some of them to walk all the way to the porta-potty.

Out of laziness or stupidity is one thing - a nuisance misdemeanor to be slapped down from time to time.

As an expression of contempt or disapproval - a more serious offense.



Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
User currently offlinePanAmOldDC8 From Barbados, joined Dec 2006, 960 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (7 years 6 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1837 times:

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 10):
That's a bit naive, sorry. Not only can't you compare size and layout of both memorials, you would have to appeal to the conscience of drunken tourists and Nazis. Good luck with that.

They were also drunk, even the 16 year old and they thought it was great to do what they did. It happened right after our Canada day celebrations on July 1st. The War memorial in Ottawa is huge and covers 10 acres, with all sorts of places to hide. Have you ever been to Ottawa? Great city, but a typical capital city, everyone there thinks they are above everyone else in the country



Barbados, CWC soon, can't wait
User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 15, posted (7 years 6 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1805 times:

I think memorials are completely useless...
Why focusing on the dead when the presence is what counts..
If you want to set up memorials,you could plaster literally any city with memorials for anything.
For the lost in WWI,WWII, during the historic wars of 100 years in Europe,for the victims of the pest,for the dead of street-violence,drugs,cancer..where do you want to stop and how do you "qualify" for a memorial ?
I do belong to those who think once you have passed away- you are not any longer part of this earth- so why constantly remember ???
Will there be memorials for the hundreds of thousands of victims of any of the ME wars ,or African genocides in Rwanda,Sudan or Mozambique ?
The massacres in Cambodia ? - what good does it do to any of the people who have lost members of their family ? The memory is within people and not in a fancy architectural monument!



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User currently offlineTeamAmerica From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 1761 posts, RR: 23
Reply 16, posted (7 years 6 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1795 times:

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 15):
I think memorials are completely useless...
Why focusing on the dead when the presence is what counts..

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
George Santayana, 1905.



Failure is not an option; it's an outcome.
User currently offlinePanAmOldDC8 From Barbados, joined Dec 2006, 960 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (7 years 6 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1778 times:

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 15):
think memorials are completely useless

Without a past there is no future. It is something that I was taught a long time ago and it might be to your benefit to remember that one day you will, believe me



Barbados, CWC soon, can't wait
User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 18, posted (7 years 6 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 1764 times:

There is a difference between history and the need to use the past to build the future-but I still don't see the need for memorials...
(Don't get me wrong- i'm into historic architecture,i'm interested in lot's of culture related knowledge - but spending millions for blocks of stones just to recall the holocaust is a waste of emotional energy )
One should rather devote this energy into something forwardlooking,positive rather than glorifying the dark past...



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User currently offlinePanAmOldDC8 From Barbados, joined Dec 2006, 960 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (7 years 6 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 1753 times:

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 18):
One should rather devote this energy into something forwardlooking,positive rather than glorifying the dark

It is a constant reminder of what that dark past has been, which we humans need to be constantly reminded of



Barbados, CWC soon, can't wait
User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 20, posted (7 years 6 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 1737 times:

There is enough darkness in the present -no need to bring up the evil spirits of the past...
Sorry - I don't grasp the need for that - and I'm 56 and well travelled ...
They should have spent the millions for that useless pile of rubble and plant trees in the Negev....



Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlinePanAmOldDC8 From Barbados, joined Dec 2006, 960 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (7 years 6 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 1677 times:

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 20):
They should have spent the millions for that useless pile of rubble and plant trees in the Negev..

I am 61 and we will have to agree to disagree.I have also traveled this planet from the Caribbean, throughout Europe, Africa, South America, The Pacific, The Indian Continent. I have not traveled to the middle East as it has never really interested me. Not saying it is not a nice place, but never had the inclination to go



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User currently offlineCaptLockheed From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2007, 135 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (7 years 6 months ago) and read 1573 times:

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 16):
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
George Santayana, 1905.

Which is utter bull-hooey.

No-one has forgotten the Holocaust yet since 1945 there has been Cambodia, Rwanda, Yugoslavia, Sudan and many other such acts..


User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 23, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1552 times:

Many people tend to forget that the greatest of all mass-murderers has been glorified chairman Mao Tse Dung with an estimate track-record of between 7-15 Million civilian victims during the Culture Revolution and the following mass-starvations.
Nobody though takes any bad thoughts to visit his shrine in Peking- imagine the Germans would put up a shrine for the glory of Adolf Hitler ....the world would shiver and an outcry from the civilized world would be the result.
Moral,history and perception-all that is a case for interpretation depending where you sit .
That of course does not justify the spoliation of a Holocaust-monument...
But it shows that some victims have more media-value than others- and that's where I think human moral shows it's true face !
A dead African form Rwanda or dilapidated Chinese is always less worth than a dead Jew !



Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlineTeamAmerica From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 1761 posts, RR: 23
Reply 24, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1515 times:

Quoting CaptLockheed (Reply 22):
No-one has forgotten the Holocaust yet since 1945 there has been Cambodia, Rwanda, Yugoslavia, Sudan and many other such acts..

The point isn't that people don't remember, it's that they fail to learn. In all the instances you cite, those who knew of the Holocaust obviously didn't recognize what was happening or worse still failed to act.

The fact that it keeps happening is all the more reason to remember, and to build memorials. It's the hope that someday people will learn.



Failure is not an option; it's an outcome.
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