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Kansas Rethinks Adam/Eve/Dinosaurs/Church  
User currently offlineWestWing From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2135 posts, RR: 7
Posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2232 times:

So it seems the Kansas Board of Education has *finally* reversed itself on the evolution decision.

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory?id=2872167

"Today the Kansas Board of Education returned its curriculum standards to mainstream science," said Board Chairman, Dr. Bill Wagnon. "This assures that Kansas children are appropriately educated for the 21st century."

Who says we can't make progress.



*The thread title is a reference to a thread started by Jaysit when the Kansas decision was announced.


The best time to plant a tree is 40 years ago. The second best time is today.
90 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMBMBOS From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2616 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 2215 times:

Good news! It's refreshing to learn that sometimes sane, rational folks prevail.

User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21521 posts, RR: 53
Reply 2, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 2205 times:

Good to see Kansas has finally reached the 20th century in 2007...!  mischievous 

User currently offlineIFEMaster From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 2186 times:

I don't see what the big deal is with teaching both 'Evolution' and 'Intelligent Design'. They are both theories and exposing kids to both simply encourages an open-mindedness to explore both and make up their own minds.

User currently offlineWestWing From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2135 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 2185 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 2):
has finally reached the 20th century

Woudn't that be 19th Century?

By the way, the board vote on this issue was recorded 6 to 4, so there were still four on the board voting in favor of the intelligent designer. The margin is narrow and the decision could be reversed again depending on who comes to power during the 2008 elections.



The best time to plant a tree is 40 years ago. The second best time is today.
User currently offlineAirCop From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 2183 times:

Quoting MBMBOS (Reply 1):
Good news! It's refreshing to learn that sometimes sane, rational folks prevail.



Quoting Klaus (Reply 2):
Good to see Kansas has finally reached the 20th century in 2007...! mischievous

Until the next election when the other side will attempt to retake the board again. This thing has flip flopped a couple of times now. Kansas is a strange place..


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21521 posts, RR: 53
Reply 6, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2155 times:

Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 3):
I don't see what the big deal is with teaching both 'Evolution' and 'Intelligent Design'. They are both theories and exposing kids to both simply encourages an open-mindedness to explore both and make up their own minds.

No. One is an intensely verified theory which is supported and confirmed by a huge mountain of evidence, the other is a hypothesis which has been disproved by physical evidence.

And "leaving it to the students to make up their own minds" is the laziest excuse for arbitrary indoctrination with unfounded propaganda that could ever exist!

Why don't we leave the same freedom of "decision" to the students in math tests then?  crazy 

There is absolutely nothing about those two which puts them on the same level.

Quoting WestWing (Reply 4):
Woudn't that be 19th Century?

I was trying to be generous.

Quoting AirCop (Reply 5):
Kansas is a strange place..

Indeed. Looks a bit like the land that time forgot...


User currently offlineIFEMaster From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2150 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 6):
No. One is an intensely verified theory which is supported and confirmed by a huge mountain of evidence, the other is a hypothesis which has been disproved by physical evidence.

And "leaving it to the students to make up their own minds" is the laziest excuse for arbitrary indoctrination with unfounded propaganda that could ever exist!

Why don't we leave the same freedom of "decision" to the students in math tests then? crazy

There is absolutely nothing about those two which puts them on the same level.

So we should completely discount the idea of intelligent design? No way, no how, not ever was the world a product of intelligent design?


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21521 posts, RR: 53
Reply 8, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2142 times:

Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 7):
So we should completely discount the idea of intelligent design? No way, no how, not ever was the world a product of intelligent design?

There is absolutely no verifiable evidence for it and a substantial amount of evidence against, so it is one among millions of marginal to extremely unlikely hypotheses which are also not taught in any respectable schools. It has proven completely unable to predict any future discoveries.

By contrast, the theory system of evolution fits perfectly with a vast range of evidence, is verifiable to a large extent and has no rival with regard to consistency and predictive quality of future discoveries.

There is simply no way to compare the two, except in the minds of people who have absolutely no idea about how science works or how the theory of evolution actually relates to verifiable evidence.


User currently offlineSaturnVRocket From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 88 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2131 times:

One of the great ironies I see with "intelligent design" is that the actual concept of creationism has undergone its own form of evolution.

SVR


User currently offlineN231YE From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2129 times:

Quoting AirCop (Reply 5):
Kansas is a strange place..

Indeed, with witches, lions, tin men, gold paths, Emerald City and the infamous wizard, I can't agree more  wink 


User currently offlineIFEMaster From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2118 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 8):
except in the minds of people who have absolutely no idea about how science works or how the theory of evolution actually relates to verifiable evidence.

Off topic, but my curiosity is peaked...how would you address scientists, specifically those involved in the biological field, who believe and support intelligent design?


User currently offlineN666FU From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2118 times:

Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 3):
I don't see what the big deal is with teaching both 'Evolution' and 'Intelligent Design'.

Great, so send your kids to a Christian or Catholic school, and keep it out of public school science classes.


User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 13, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2103 times:

Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 11):
Off topic, but my curiosity is peaked...how would you address scientists, specifically those involved in the biological field, who believe and support intelligent design?

"Produce the evidence" is how you would say it. That's the trouble with Intelligent Design as a concept, it is entirely unverifiable, unprovable (in the specific scientific sense of "proof", i.e. test) and a matter of faith. It cannot be challenged, it is a mere article of faith, because whenever there is a difficult bit, the response is "Well, God did it". It is unscientific in the extreme and cannot be rationally debated.



She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlineHalcyon From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2103 times:

Klaus, I think this time you're actually attempting to prove a negative.
You still can't PROVE macro evolution, and it's never been witnessed or seen in fossils, and since all matter had to have an origin, I think assuming that it came from something that CREATED it is not all that preposterous. Or you can believe that it all appeared today, or that it is self defining and has been around forever, and, whoop, there we go! Wow!

Lucas

Edit:Rudeness

[Edited 2007-02-14 20:31:04]

User currently offlineAsstChiefMark From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2090 times:

I wonder what the creationism textbooks looked like. How was creationism explained?



User currently offlineCopaair737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2090 times:

What's with the push to teach this God thing in public schools? It's ridiculous. I could understand if the United States were a theocracy, but it's not, so its best to keep the Holy Rollers out of the planning dept.'s in public schools.
They reversed it, good for them.
I have a question, if this evolution concept is so hard to accept, then how do you feel about plate tectonics? relativity? continental drift?
All of those are "theories" too.

-Copa


User currently offlineHalcyon From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2084 times:

Quoting Copaair737 (Reply 16):
then how do you feel about plate tectonics?

I've never felt an earthquake, so they must not exist! Sheesh, all you liars.  Wink Just kidding. Yes, I agree that the plates move, and for some odd reason that thought has made me mighty hungry. But I have to go to class, so hasta luego.

Lucas


User currently offlineAloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8767 posts, RR: 42
Reply 18, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2082 times:

Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 7):
So we should completely discount the idea of intelligent design? No way, no how, not ever was the world a product of intelligent design?

You could always teach it in sunday school, or religion classes like we have them in Germany. I was taught the history of creation in school, it was never presented as science but as historic theology.

Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 11):
Off topic, but my curiosity is peaked...how would you address scientists, specifically those involved in the biological field, who believe and support intelligent design?

How many are there? 20, 25? And what are their credentials concerning genetics and the development of species? In other words, does anyone who has a clue and is not involved in some 18th century-loving church actually support creationism?



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineCopaair737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2074 times:

Creationist science class would be among the easiest classes ever. You could just answer "God Did It!" for every answer and get it right.

-Copa


User currently offlineMBMBOS From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2616 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2074 times:

Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 11):
Off topic, but my curiosity is peaked...how would you address scientists, specifically those involved in the biological field, who believe and support intelligent design?

If your curiosity is piqued you might want to read about the Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District trial where the school district argued for installing intelligent design as part of the curriculum. Or you can read what the National Academy of Science says officially about intelligent design.

In short, intelligent design is wrapped up in its own circular reasoning and cannot be tested through scientific method. I see no reason to introduce it in school curriculum when it cannot withstand the scrutiny of critical thinking or rational thought.

I have no problem with religion, spirituality, mysticism, etc. But school is a place to hone critical thinking skills, rational thought.


User currently offlineNASCARAirforce From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3184 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2070 times:

Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 3):
I don't see what the big deal is with teaching both 'Evolution' and 'Intelligent Design'. They are both theories and exposing kids to both simply encourages an open-mindedness to explore both and make up their own minds.

I agree

Quoting AirCop (Reply 5):
Until the next election when the other side will attempt to retake the board again. This thing has flip flopped a couple of times now. Kansas is a strange place..

Kansas in the 1800s used to be known as a Progressive State too.


User currently offlinePanAmOldDC8 From Barbados, joined Dec 2006, 960 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2067 times:

Quoting WestWing (Thread starter):
So it seems the Kansas Board of Education has *finally* reversed itself on the evolution decision

Techically both should be taught. Where is the freedom of speech we hear so much about. Why should not both be taught I think that this is discrimination in the highest. I just stated a fact.



Barbados, CWC soon, can't wait
User currently offlineFlyDeltaJets87 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2069 times:

Quoting N666FU (Reply 12):
Great, so send your kids to a Christian or Catholic school, and keep it out of public school science classes.

Even the Catholic Church has acknowledged evolution.

Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 7):
So we should completely discount the idea of intelligent design? No way, no how, not ever was the world a product of intelligent design?

Theory of evolution belongs in a biology class. Intelligent design belongs in a relgion class. Should religion classes be tought at a public school? That's probably for another debate though I would say yes, to go along with your point of teaching both sides to create an open minded environment. However, most public schools don't offer a course in a specific religion. The closest my school district came was in Humanities, we had to do an in-depth group research project on other world religions (Judaism, Sunni Islam, Shi'ite Islam, Hinduism, Sikhs, and Shinto IIRC).

Quoting Halcyon (Reply 14):
I think assuming that it came from something that CREATED it is not all that preposterous

  
I'm a "middle of the road" myself. Evolution explains how things got from way back to how they are today, but it doesn't really state how they were created in the first place.

[Edited 2007-02-14 21:14:56]

User currently offlineCopaair737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2064 times:

Quoting PanAmOldDC8 (Reply 22):
Techically both should be taught. Where is the freedom of speech we hear so much about. Why should not both be taught I think that this is discrimination in the highest. I just stated a fact.

Why exactly? One is based on rational thought, the other is a thinly-veiled attempt at smuggling religion into school.
I thought our public schools were supposed to be secular?

Why do the holy rollers insist on pushing religion on everyone...why?
If they are unhappy their method of "science" if you can call it that isn't taught in public schools, then send your kid(s) to private schools.
easy enough.

-Copa


25 Post contains images WestWing : Ah, but the young lady told her canine companion that they were "not in Kansas anymore". The theory that an "Intelligent Designer" created life, the
26 Copaair737 : Because the holy rollers like to impose their will on everyone. If they just stuck to playing with rattlesnakes in their megachurches, and confined t
27 Post contains images Klaus : Precisely like that. You will note, by the way, that such claims almost always come from people who are scientists in completely different fields - n
28 Klaus : Exactly. One is a scientific theory which helps us reliably interacting with the world (creating medicine, identifying criminals etc.), the other a m
29 NASCARAirforce : Do you agree then if I don't have children that attend public school and if I don't agree with what the school teaches that people in this situation
30 FlyDeltaJets87 : Exactly. I'm of the same viewpoint. Some people forget that A) the Bible was not written in English and B) it was written many centuries (or millenni
31 Post contains images OlegShv : Although, seriously, it's good to know they finally separated science and religion.
32 Copaair737 : Go ahead and withhold your taxes. We'll see how far that gets you. -Copa
33 Falcon84 : The big deal is that Evolution is based on science; Intelligent Design is a new-fangled name for Creationism, in my mind, and belongs in the Church a
34 Post contains images Mir : That, sir, is an excellent point. -Mir
35 Copaair737 : Bingo!! I don't understand how these christian bible beaters can claim they are discriminated against or persecuted. Maybe in the Muslim world, or An
36 PanAmOldDC8 : I am not a HOLY ROLLER to start with. But I believe that fair is fair. What are you so scared about having religion taught in schools, why if I don't
37 NASCARAirforce : We should be allowed to if we don't have kids in Public school. We should get a tax break of a certain percentage that would have gone to the school
38 Copaair737 : Why should a blatant show of religion be taught in PUBLIC schools? Religion doesn't belong in science class. Why are you so adamant about that? Send
39 NASCARAirforce : So if he sends his kids to Private school, shouldn't he have the right to withold a portion of his taxes that would go to his district's school syste
40 Copaair737 : I thought you said you were leaving after S12PPL abused you in that Dungy thread? -Copa
41 Copaair737 : Don't taxes fund public education? Why withhold taxes? So others can be punished with decrepit facilities, outdated textbooks, and such because of a
42 N666FU : Seperation of chuch and state. Because creationism isn't SCIENCE.
43 OlegShv : Well, the thing about the state is that it will never be fair to everyone. If I were to follow your logic, I should demand back the part of my taxes
44 Copaair737 : The holy rollers don't seem to grasp that. But OldDC8 isn't a holy roller...I forgot. -Copa
45 Boeing744 : "I don't think we're in the dark ages anymore Toto!" Exactly!!! Bingo!
46 PanAmOldDC8 : Thank you for your kind words,in response to several members of this forum I decided to stay and people like you won't drive me out again.I am for th
47 PanAmOldDC8 : I am a Christian, but do not believe in pushing religion down peoples throats. In my feeling it is up to you what you believe. I you want to believe
48 Copaair737 : But that is what you are doing by insisting on this religious mumbo jumbo being forced into a public school science classroom. -Copa
49 LH423 : I'd really be interested in what these kids are learning. I did not grow up in an atmosphere where Intelligent Design was taught. I'd be really intere
50 Copaair737 : As I've said earlier...tests would be easy in that class because every answer would be "God did it!" I saw a copy of an ID textbook. Good for a laugh
51 FlyKev : I was taught creationism only in R.E (religious education). It was always presented as a belief and not a theory. After all, its not science. I see no
52 Boeing744 : I share the same beliefs as you, except that RE should NOT be a mandatory course in public schools if it is only teaching Christianity. If it include
53 Post contains images Halcyon : Gosh darn it Klaus, I realized it was rude after reading it and tried to get rid of that stinker! You're one fast puppy. Such as? I think that all cr
54 Post contains images Halcyon : Before I ago, I agree with that. Glad you agree. It really gets me that the argument against that is that it's all in our heads.
55 Post contains links IFEMaster : I found this interesting article that argues both sides. Quite interesting. http://www.actionbioscience.org/evolution/nhmag.html
57 Post contains images Halcyon : See, evolution is going backward!
58 Padraighaz : This is a difficult question and deserves a proper answer. First off, I would say there are limitations in what can fit into any curriculum and so so
59 D L X : Hmm... So, if this is progress, I'm going to piss off the boss, get fired, apologize for pissing off the boss, get rehired back to my old position, a
60 Post contains images NASCARAirforce : Speaking of Kansas...
61 Post contains images FlyDeltaJets87 : That's one of the best things I've seen in quite some time on here.
62 Post contains images AsstChiefMark : There are no religious education classes in American public schools. Public means schools that are funded entirely by taxpayer funds. I taught primar
63 AAce24 : Thanks for joining the rest of us Kansas. It's about damn time.
64 D L X : That's not true! I have certainly had plenty of religious education classes in my public school time. The thing is, you can't "preach" - you can't en
65 AsstChiefMark : I know what you mean and that's what I meant. You can teach about religion, but you can't "preach" religion. Mark
66 Post contains images Galapagapop : Any other theories that should be presented? Should history textbooks include the alternate to 9/11 that a couple nuts thought up? Because there is a
67 CXA330300 : As a Jew who believes strongly in evolution, I feel the urge to say? Isn't creationism the ultimate insult to God? Pulling God down to a human level,
68 FlyDeltaJets87 : Not necessarily. (Before you read any further, do note that I do not deny evolution) Science has shown the universe is some 13 billion years old, wit
69 AsstChiefMark : Oh, shit. We're screwed.
70 NASCARAirforce : Which even as a Christian I believe the "few thousand years old" theory is extremely archaic. There is also the Christian belief that God has always
71 Post contains images Mir : Well, if you want the country to reap the "rewards" of a horribly undereducated populace a decade down the line, sure. But education, and the proper
72 N229NW : AND It is very simple. Sure, teach both if you want. Open up kids' minds to all kinds of ideas, whether scientific or spiritual. BUT, and this is a b
73 MUWarriors : Good for Kansas, now let's hope they don't drift back in 2008. If they do, I hope some ballsy teacher begins teaching the Cherokee version of creation
74 Post contains images Klaus : Such as? I think that all creatures adapt Klaus, but saying that I "adapted" from a lifeless sludge of gases to what I am now is a much larger step.
75 Post contains images Halcyon : You're right, I stepped over a line. Please forgive me. Yes, but the fact that these are seen by people in places where such does not exist, an are i
76 Post contains images N229NW : Thanks, only when I read my quote over in your post, I couldn't believe how many stupid typos I made. I guess that's what I get for posting when I'm
77 Post contains links D L X : And to think, it's been 80 years since the Scopes Monkey Trial. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scopes_Monkey_Trial
78 N1120A : What is wrong with it is that ID is a specifically religious creation, which means the teaching of it ends up being an endorsement of religion, which
79 Greasespot : I have no problem with them teaching Intelligent design...When the church starts to let Evolution taught in churchs and church schools...Until then ke
80 Post contains images FlyDeltaJets87 : I should have remembered to add this earlier. There is no theory of evolution; only a list of creatures Chuck Norris allows to live. And if these cour
81 PanAmOldDC8 : Yes in one simple word, where is the freedom of speech if we put locks on everything. Why should you be allowed to say what you want and I can not? T
82 Boeing744 : How about the Alberta school teacher that was teaching all of his students that the holocaust never happened? Is that OK to you?
83 PanAmOldDC8 : No they are certain limitations that have to be put on that short of thing, but my point in general, we have lost our right to free speech . I remerb
84 MBMBOS : You sure about that? You think it should be okay for a teacher to teach anything they want, because everyone has the right to speak freely? Every poi
85 Acheron : Wonder if someone could find the video of a guy that used a Banana as a proof inteligent design. Saying that the Banana adapted easily to our hand and
86 Post contains images FlyDeltaJets87 : There's a difference between just having a class on the subject and preaching it as truth. We could give the South Park Take on the Church of Sciento
87 Deskflier : A slight correction: Even the most hard-line supporters of I.D. admit that they have no theory. Some of these people say that maybe if this idea live
88 N229NW : Ah, have you too been touched by his noodly apendage?
89 SW733 : It can be...it's all the tornadoes, they mess us up! A lot may depend on the electorate...With the newly elected Democrat in the largely Republican 2
90 Post contains images MBMBOS : Indeed. He is the divine carbohydrate!
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