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2002 Iraq Plans Declassified Under Foia  
User currently offlineAloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8764 posts, RR: 42
Posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1890 times:

See for yourselves: http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB214/index.htm

TOP SECRET POLO STEP

Iraq War Plan Assumed Only 5,000 U.S. Troops Still There by December 2006


I need to be off soon, so please do keep it civil!  Wink


Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
97 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePope From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1886 times:

Quoting Aloges (Thread starter):
TOP SECRET POLO STEP

Iraq War Plan Assumed Only 5,000 U.S. Troops Still There by December 2006

Wow. It's confirmed that the administration miscalculated in its planning. That's breaking news.


User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1871 times:

Quoting Pope (Reply 1):
Wow. It's confirmed that the administration miscalculated in its planning. That's breaking news.

No, it's not, but it confirms what some of us who weren/t blinded by fear knew back in 2003: this administration grossly screwed up the plans for this war, and they've been feeding us a line of bull since "Mission Accomplished".

it shows the utter incompetence of the President, the VP, the SecDef, and the Joint Chiefs in planning the damn fool of a war, and how their miscalculations have deeply hurt this nation.


User currently offlineAndesSMF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1871 times:

Has there even been a war that was NOT miscalculated in one way or another?

User currently offlineSpeedbird747BA From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1861 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 2):
SecDef,

Former Secretary of Defense, Falcon.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 3):
Has there even been a war that was NOT miscalculated in one way or another?

Yeah, the Israelis [u]never[/i] miscalculate.

Cheers,
Kyle


User currently offlineTZ757300 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 2876 posts, RR: 6
Reply 5, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1856 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 2):
the Joint Chiefs

But remember, what ever they suggest has to be approved by the SecDef. So it's more on his fault



LETS GO MOUNTAINEERS!
User currently offlineConfuscius From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 3875 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1858 times:

"Wow. It's confirmed that the administration miscalculated in its planning."

Talk about understatement...

...just like Pol Pot admitting making some mistakes in Cambodia.  Wink


"Iraq War Plan Assumed Only 5,000 U.S. Troops Still There by December 2006"

Oh c'mon, they're only off by about 145,000. What's a few tens of thousands...



Ain't I a stinker?
User currently offlinePope From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1850 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 2):
No, it's not, but it confirms what some of us who weren/t blinded by fear knew back in 2003: this administration grossly screwed up the plans for this war, and they've been feeding us a line of bull since "Mission Accomplished".



Yawwwwwwwn........You are so bitter. How can you all this to consume your life the way it does? You really would be much happier if you just let it go.


User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1841 times:

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Reply 4):
Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 2):
SecDef,

Former Secretary of Defense, Falcon.

Wrong. He was the CURRENT SecDef when this was drawn up. You stand corrected.  Smile

Quoting TZ757300 (Reply 6):
Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 2):
the Joint Chiefs

But remember, what ever they suggest has to be approved by the SecDef. So it's more on his fault

True, but they are the ones who should know what is exactly needed, and the fact they just agreed with SecDef shows they didn't do their jobs.

Quoting Pope (Reply 8):

Request denied. It deserves to be beaten for years to come.


User currently offlineAloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8764 posts, RR: 42
Reply 9, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1782 times:

Quoting Pope (Reply 1):
That's breaking news.

The news is the scale of their blindness. 5000 troops at the end of 2006, they must have been entirely delusional.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineBoeing4ever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1775 times:

Wow...just wow. This is the greatest military power on Earth...and such delusional planning. Hot off the heals of a successful (militarily and politically) campaign in Afghanistan too (eventually neglected because of this Marlboro mission in Iraq). This was a royal choke. Rumsfeld...you douchebag...you royal fuck up. Unbelieveable. I want to smack you...hard. You bag of douche...nay, not a bag, but a box of douche.

 airplane B4e-Forever New Frontiers airplane 


User currently offlineAGM100 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 5407 posts, RR: 17
Reply 11, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1766 times:

Quoting Aloges (Reply 9):
The news is the scale of their blindness. 5000 troops at the end of 2006, they must have been entirely delusional.

Yes and I assume you had it all figured out before hand , no one in the US or the EU could have calculated the savage violence on display their. The idea that the Iraqi people would exhaust themselves killing each other was not considered ... wow ... who would have thought it.

We underestimated the level of psychotic age old sectarian hatred these people have for each other ... great .

Iraq will stabilize , it will be a place that people can live together ... it may take time , but it will happen.

Beating the dead horse is just that , a bunch of gumming over nothing ... with no view of the future .. only the weak will to "KEEP PEACE" at any price. No matter what oppression and evil comes with "peace".



You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
User currently offlineJalto27R From United States of America, joined May 2004, 857 posts, RR: 14
Reply 12, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1760 times:

.....And here I thought Bush and Rummy knew it was gonna be like this all along. Talk about a waste of my time, reading that damn article.

User currently offlineKSYR From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1756 times:

Mistakes were made. Dwelling on them won't fix anything however.

We need to concentrate on finding solutions to the current problems in Iraq before we go back and start nit-picking. That can wait until after the final bullets have finished flying.


User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1756 times:

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 11):
Iraq will stabilize

You hope. Hell, I hope.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 11):
it will be a place that people can live together

I'm not sure of that. Anicient hatreds are something that few seem to get over.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 11):
Beating the dead horse is just that , a bunch of gumming over nothing

No, it is not. If the history of what happened is ignored, and just sloughted asided by the apologists of those whjo made the errors, then we will repeat them again, and history won't be recorded correctly, to cover up political mistakes.

It is very important that the record be set straight for future generations to learn from those erros. It is not in vain, and it is not gumming over nothing.


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21521 posts, RR: 53
Reply 15, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1748 times:

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 11):
Yes and I assume you had it all figured out before hand , no one in the US or the EU could have calculated the savage violence on display their. The idea that the Iraqi people would exhaust themselves killing each other was not considered ... wow ... who would have thought it.

Actually, you'll find that among the many accurate predictions the Bush administration claimed were ludicrously pessimistic the current scenario was already foreseen.

But of course that was no reason to actually plan for a situation seasoned experts on both sides of the Atlantic (and elsewhere) anticipated...!  crazy   Yeah sure

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 11):
Iraq will stabilize , it will be a place that people can live together ... it may take time , but it will happen.

Your problem is that you're still in the fully delusional belief that Iraq was somehow a carbon copy of Germany in 1945! Which it isn't - in almost every respect imaginable!

No, I don't hink it is entirely impossible that your rose-coloured vision might come true one day, but it is certainly not happening without a completely new approach which is based on reality instead of the delusion we've been inundated with for the past three years.  yuck 

General Petraeus may be the right guy to pull this off as far as the US military can influence it, but I see no reason at all for the Bush hangers-on to rejoice about somebody finally beginning to clean up the mess they've made with no need or reason.


User currently offlineAloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8764 posts, RR: 42
Reply 16, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1746 times:

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 11):
Yes and I assume you had it all figured out before hand

No, but I was among the masses warning that carnage would ensue in Iraq after the invasion.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 11):
no one in the US or the EU could have calculated the savage violence on display their.

Maybe not "calculated", but civil war certainly was to be expected. You just need to look a couple of miles west of Iraq to know what ancient hatred between religions and sects can easily cause.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 11):
The idea that the Iraqi people would exhaust themselves killing each other was not considered ... wow ... who would have thought it.

Are you kidding? It was not only considered, but forecasted. Just read through the endless threads where people argued about the planned invasion before it happened. Civil war after the invasion and destabilisation of the region were key arguments against the invasion. Not "the left's" alleged "softness" on Saddam Hussein.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 11):
We underestimated the level of psychotic age old sectarian hatred these people have for each other ... great .

Yup, your government did a great job of that. It's not like they and Saddam Hussein in particular hadn't demonstrated it earlier, with the Kurdish and Shia Iraqis being the victims.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 11):
Iraq will stabilize , it will be a place that people can live together ... it may take time , but it will happen.

Hopefully - but for the "nation building" that could lead there, a plan is needed. A much, much better plan than what was declassified Feb 14th.

Quoting Jalto27R (Reply 12):
Talk about a waste of my time, reading that damn article.

Article? Those were formerly "top secret" powerpoint slides from the US government, hardly an article. Second, no one forced you to waste your precious time reading through the deadly mistakes of the Bush administration.

Quoting KSYR (Reply 13):
That can wait until after the final bullets have finished flying.

It can't. A war needs critical analysis to be won, and the analysis of the buildup to it is an important part of that. If it exposes the incompetence of those who are in charge of the war, it will hopefully lead to their replacement.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineAndesSMF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 1735 times:

Quoting Aloges (Reply 16):
A war needs critical analysis to be won

Wrong. You don't analyze wars, you fight them. On two fronts. The military and the PR. Both must be won for victory. The one who persists the longer (not necessarily the right party) is the one who wins. War plans are always flexible and almost never followed.

Quoting Aloges (Reply 16):
If it exposes the incompetence of those who are in charge of the war, it will hopefully lead to their replacement.

Read up a little bit on the horrendous military mistakes George Washington made in his career. But he persisted and kept going till victory. I wonder what would have happened if GW had been replaced due to his incompetence?


User currently offlineAloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8764 posts, RR: 42
Reply 18, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 1728 times:

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 17):
You don't analyze wars, you fight them.

So no one in the Pentagon and/or White House should be analysing what's happening in Iraq?! Strategy doesn't work without analysis, which might of course be why the Bush admin's strategy in Iraq isn't quite effective.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 17):
Read up a little bit on the horrendous military mistakes George Washington made in his career.

Comparing George W Bush to George Washington is an insult to Washington. You can also hardly compare the war in Iraq with the American War of Independence - for instance, the guerillas were the Americans whereas nowadays the Americans are trying to win against guerillas.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineAndesSMF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 1719 times:

Quoting Aloges (Reply 18):
So no one in the Pentagon and/or White House should be analysing what's happening in Iraq?!

Analysis is separate from planning.

Quoting Aloges (Reply 18):
Comparing George W Bush to George Washington is an insult to Washington.

Dismissing people for the mistakes they have made never allows some of them to correct their mistakes and rise above them. If I were using your current criteria, the continental congress should have dismissed Washington for his terrible mistakes.

And I was not comparing anyone to GWB. Merely stating that the complaints that you are voicing now would have been exceedingly similar to many wars that were fought previously.


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21521 posts, RR: 53
Reply 20, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 1719 times:

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 17):
Wrong. You don't analyze wars, you fight them.

If you're incompetent to analyze the tactical and strategic situation (as the Bush administration and some of the top brass have clearly proven to be), you have no chance against a skillful opponent, even at a great disparity of forces in your favour.

This may have changed recently at least on the military side, but we'll still have to see if that's enough to make a decisive difference.


User currently offlineRJdxer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1708 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 14):
You hope. Hell, I hope.

No you don't, you've too much invested in defeat. Nothing will ever look like victory to you so why do you pretend that it will? You're another one that even if 20 years from now Iraq is a thriving democracy, will still say it was the wrong thing to do.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 14):
Anicient hatreds are something that few seem to get over.

Not to mention modern ones, like your hatred of the current President.

December 1941....

Gen. Walter Short ordered army aircraft parked wing tip to wing tip due to his concern that saboteurs could gain entrance the field and by moving the aircraft they could more easily be defended. Aircraft were perfectly lined up for bombing attacks by Japanese naval aircraft.

http://www.onwar.com/chrono/1941/dec41/f06dec41.htm
From Washington... The final breakdown of deteriorating relations between the US and Japan. Roosevelt makes an appeal to the Japanese Emperor for peace. This direct approach violates Japanese cultural mores concerning the role of the Emperor and it goes unanswered. The US code breaking service has routinely intercepted and decoded all Japanese diplomatic messages and the most of the December 6th message is translated and sent to the President. It is clear from the message that war is imminent, but there are no specific details.

October 1950...

Chinese use diplomatic channels to tell President Truman that they cannot accept a capitalist Korea and the American military on their border and will assist North Korea in its defense if necessary. President Truman discounts the threat in part based on the advice of two sources.

Truman meets with MacArthur on Wake Island. MacArthur discounts possibility of Chinese intervention on the peninsula by claiming that the Chinese had no way to support those troops from the air and would never want to take the kind of casualties they would take from American aircraft alone.

CIA tells Truman that Chinese involvement is unlikely as well.

19 October Chinese military forces begin their attack on UN forces, backed in the air by Soviet Migs.

I could keep going back to the revolutionary war but I think you get the picture. The first person who can tell you how a single battle will develop not to mention an entire campaign or war will be the first person who could ever do so. War is fluid, always has, always will be. No one ever knows how one will end until it does end. The same is true in Iraq today.


User currently offlineAloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8764 posts, RR: 42
Reply 22, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 1689 times:

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 19):
Analysis is separate from planning.

As a war progresses, plans may need to change as well. In order to make the correct changes, you need to analyse. I dare say the plan in Iraq needs a lot of changes.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 19):
If I were using your current criteria, the continental congress should have dismissed Washington for his terrible mistakes.

No. The circumstances were nothing like the war in Iraq. In Washington's times, his nation was at stake, he needed to fight a war for it s independence, he had very little intelligence compared to the US before the war in Iraq, he had no significant technological advantage and his troops were not nearly as mobile as US troops are today.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 19):
And I was not comparing anyone to GWB.

You did:

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 17):
I wonder what would have happened if GW had been replaced due to his incompetence?

I said I'd like to see those responsible for the unprecedented strategical mistakes in Iraq replaced - that means President Bush at the end of the day - you said George Washington made equally terrible mistakes yet wasn't dismissed. How is that not a comparison?

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 19):
Merely stating that the complaints that you are voicing now would have been exceedingly similar to many wars that were fought previously.

The thing is this war was planned worse than any other before. While experts everywhere were warning the Bush admin about future insurgent activity in Iraq, they initially planned with 5000 trops at the end of 2006. That's not a mistake, that is delusion. It's borderline criminal strategic incompetence, not tactical misjudgement which is what Washington's mistakes probably boil down to.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineRJdxer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 1679 times:

Quoting Aloges (Reply 22):
The thing is this war was planned worse than any other before

In Vietnam we lost over 50,000 men in 10 years time. In Korea we lost 33,600 dead in three years. Although strategically the war has not gone the way it was planned, and I would remind you that Vietnam was not supposed to turn into the conflict it did, from a tactical perspective it is the lightest casualty count over the longest period of active combat we have ever seen.

As Vietnam also showed, technological superiority does not always guarantee that you will have an easy time of it. Especially when your opponents use couriers instead of radios and do not wear identifiable uniforms. It also makes the war much tougher when you are hell bent on containing civilian casualties. This is a tough war to win, but if the reporting of it were true, it would be doubtless to anyone that we are winning. The soldiers, marines, airmen, and naval personnel that are serving there see the difference, only the press does not.


User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 1676 times:

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 21):
No you don't, you've too much invested in defeat

Bullshit. I was THE FIRST ONE on here, to come out in support of President Bush's buildup in Iraq. Why? Even though I was against us going to war, it's a sight better for us to win, and make Iraq work, than lose, and set the entire region back 50 years, with another Yugoslavia-in-the-making.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 21):
You're another one that even if 20 years from now Iraq is a thriving democracy, will still say it was the wrong thing to do.

Yes, I will. Then ends do not justify the means. We went to war under false pretenses, and that is wrong, no matter what the outcome. It wasn't a war to make Iraq a democracy-that was an afterthought after "Mission Accomplished" was seen to be a sham, and we learned there were no piles of WMD ready to be used on us.

I will never change my view that this war was wrong. And I'm skeptical that Iraq will ever be a thriving democracy. It's not in the culture of that area to even want democracy. But we have a debt of honor to those people to make the best of the situation FOR THEM, not for us. We have no choice but to keep going.


25 RJdxer : No BS. Virtually every post since I've been here has shown that you want us to lose just so you can keep up your tirades about President Bush. That e
26 Aloges : You're making pretty outrageous accusations here. You're saying Falcon84 wants more US soldiers to die so the war will be lost just so he can continu
27 DavestanKSAN : Uhh not really. Read what he said again, it makes perfect sense. He said he was against the reason for this war, i.e.: "We went to war under false pr
28 Post contains links AndesSMF : Sound familiar? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tet_offensive "The Tet Offensive was a tactical defeat for the Viet Cong and North Vietnamese forces, bu
29 Post contains images Confuscius : "Nevertheless, the Offensive is widely considered a turning point of the war in Vietnam, with the NLF and PAVN winning an enormous psychological and p
30 RJdxer : Why? It's been obvious for a while that while he might some how support the troops, he doesn't support their winning in Iraq since that would somehow
31 Post contains images Klaus : Absolutely. If a strategy fails, it is not the fault of those who devised the failed strategy but the fault of those who recklessly criticized it...!
32 RJdxer : In the case of the Tet offensive, the strategy did not fail. The Viet Cong was decimated and the North Vietnamese army was routed. The setbacks exper
33 AndesSMF : Did you miss that quote above? It did not fail, it was reported as having failed. Thanks for the reminder, I forgot where I had read that before.
34 Post contains images DavestanKSAN : Uh no it's not. It's coming to terms with reality. It's knowing the fact that even though the reasons to war, manipulation of evidence (if you think
35 Post contains images Longhornmaniac : Right...all Democrats want the US to lose.... . This is the "same old right-wing speak" that Rush, Bill-O, Hannity, and others have been spouting for
36 RJdxer : The reality is that no one in the administration ever said we would have the troops home by Christmas or any other such date. The thinking was that i
37 Falcon84 : Oh, I will never let this president off the hook for the huge mistake he made in going to war in Iraq. But, unlike you, I can mark the difference bet
38 AndesSMF : Just to let you know, if you are basing this claim on Iran, Iran never selected an Islamic government. From what I have read, the revolution original
39 Baroque : There have not been too many definitions of what winning this particular war might mean. I for one do not think the winning part is as "doubtless" as
40 AGM100 : The US only needs to create the situation that is right for the Iraqi's to gain control. We are not going to defeat the insurgency , Iraqi's will. Th
41 Falcon84 : At this point, we can't even keep Baghdad at peace, so in my mind we can't give the country any stability with the status quo. That's why you either
42 Post contains links Baroque : Now there is the non-virtuous spiral of no reconstruction until there is some semblance of order, and no semblance of order until reconstruction. The
43 AGM100 : Peace and security will come when both sides have had enough of the killing. That is it , the US must assit the Iraqi people with buying time to let
44 Post contains images Confuscius : the US must assit the Iraqi people with buying time to let this play out."" Which Iraqi people? Sunni, Shia or Kurd? Remember: "The friend of my enemy
45 RJdxer : Really? Bush Still In Denial Over Iraq "Despite my opposition to this war from the beginning-hell, before it started-I have said repeatedly that last
46 Post contains images TedTAce : You know what RJ you almost had a point up to here. A) You are name calling B) You are flame baiting C) You don't appear to be man enough to admit th
47 RJdxer : So you advocate defeat.
48 Post contains images Aloges : No, he's advocating to get them out of harms way. By my definition, that would mean to enable them to dominate their theatre of operations, hand over
49 Post contains images Boeing4ever : There's no chance of a 'victory' there unless we go Waffen SS on that country's ass. And the US does not have those kind of stones no matter what tho
50 Falcon84 : Wrong. Wrong again. Unlike many on the right, I see a difference between supporting or not supporting a POLITICAL decision to take us to war, and sup
51 DavestanKSAN : What great planning it was. After THREE years finally President Bush is sending more troops into Iraq. After THREE years into the war, President Bush
52 AndesSMF : Which political leaders? The ones calling for withdrawal?
53 Aloges : How about the ones who sent them? Oh right, they already had almost four years to react to changes in Iraq.
54 DavestanKSAN : No, more like the ones who after three years finally decide a Troop surge is necessary. The ones who kept Donald Rumsfield as the SoD. Specifically P
55 AndesSMF : Hell, the US has had over 60 years to react to changes in Germany, but our troops are still there, and anti-semitism is still alive in Germany. I mea
56 DavestanKSAN : Entirely different as we aren't fighting a war in Germany right now. (Save the war over who loves David Hasslehoff more) Right, I was just answering
57 Post contains images AndesSMF : Bet you that as soon as we leave, they'll start fighting again! (it was a rhetorical about Germany, but to me it still applies to some of the complai
58 Post contains images DavestanKSAN : My mistake, I misunderstood you . Oh absolutely, but one is not mutually exclusive of the other. For example some may say (which I agree with) that t
59 Baroque : I am obviously very ignorant about why US troops stayed in Germany and Japan after the peace treaties were signed and in the case of Germany after th
60 Post contains images Aloges : They are, because: they are welcome, they are military allies and their generals want them to be here. As it is in hundreds of other countries - we a
61 AGM100 : IMO, it is because Germany / Japan have become Allies of the US. It is very important for both countries and for the US to maintain joint defence pos
62 RJdxer : Short of defeat the quickest way is to send the troops, take back the neighborhoods, and get the Iraqi security forces, you know the one that get kil
63 Falcon84 : If, by "fair weather citizens", you mean those that won't march goose-step with this Administration, guilty as charged. If you mean that I don't supp
64 Post contains links AndesSMF : He protested Korea, IIRC, and was dismissed by Truman as a result: "On November 19, 1950, with the DPRK forces largely destroyed, Chinese military fo
65 Falcon84 : If you're comparing it to the here and now, and Congress' attempts to keep more troops from Iraq, you're mistaken. The Congress is not subservient to
66 AndesSMF : There are differences as they are similarities. While we all concentrate on one side of the other, all I have and will attempt to communicate the sim
67 Post contains images Boeing4ever : WW2 was also a completely different animal from Iraq. The thing is these Generals were listened to, to an extent. The ones that knew we were going in
68 AndesSMF : I would be more curious to find out how people would have reacted to the fighting styles of Patton and MacArthur today, after all: These past heroes
69 Falcon84 : If you look back at MacArthur, he was a blowhard, more a showman than anything. He was more a nut than a hero, in my opinion. Patton was just the kin
70 DavestanKSAN : Well on one hand President Bush has made countless mistakes. Donald Rumsfield screwed up everything. President Bush failed to change strategies. Pres
71 RJdxer : The majority of people in this country have said they do not want funds cut from the troops. They also don't believe a troop surge will work so they
72 Post contains images Klaus : Germany was a dictatorship. No, it wasn't. The Weimar Republic was systematically terrorized, its democracy held in contempt and the population drive
73 Post contains images RJdxer : OK, I stand corrected, for the majority of the 1930's Germany was a dictatorship. Is that better?
74 Post contains images Boeing4ever : Very well...but here's the deal, the Pentagon was probably right about fighting WW2...we won after all, Klaus drinks beer and is plump and jolly in h
75 Post contains links Baroque : Inchon might have been brilliant, but check out some of his other efforts. Start with PNG in 1942. He was appalling. As was the Aus General Blamey. h
76 RJdxer : Some generals guessed correctly, but then again, many did not. I have never said that mistakes in strategy or tactics have not and are not being made
77 Post contains images Boeing4ever : First you say some generals 'guessed' correctly (I'd say did a proper situation assessment) and then you say that noone forsaw what had happened afte
78 Baroque : Not much genius showing in 1942 says he between gritted teeth. It is true that in looking at the problems with the NG campaign, it is at times diffic
79 Post contains images Klaus : It would be Lederhosen and no, I'm not bavarian, nor do I like beer very much. Nor goose-stepping, for that matter. Are you, really...? Some of your
80 Post contains images Boeing4ever : 1. I stand corrected on the spelling. 2. I bet you wish you were. 3. What human doesn't like beer!? 4. Didn't I say you weren't goose stepping? It wa
81 Klaus : Indeed. Why would I? Who says I'm human? There's a hasty retreat for you...! Germany wasn't a different case only or even primarily because of a diff
82 Post contains images Boeing4ever : The differences by themselves are what dictated American strategy. However, some common sense lessons can be cleaned from any past war...namely the A
83 Post contains images Klaus : Too bad that some people are apparently deaf to the dictates of the situation... Indeed. That is an oversimplification. There are strong forces (basi
84 RJdxer : Those are the fortunes of war. General Custer did not have a proper situation assessment otherwise known as a wag, and paid dearly for it. General Pa
85 Post contains images Klaus : It was foreseen and warned against as a likely outcome by pretty much every independent expert on the region, many of them of course in "old Europe".
86 RJdxer : Link As I stated, damned if you do damned if you don't, on both sides.
87 Post contains links Klaus : You'll find a selection of quotes here, among others: Media Matters - 'Civil war' and the real press scandal Think Progress » Bush Ignored Warnings
88 Post contains images Boeing4ever : Less than two years to go... I should clarify...those with influence are more interested in killing for destabilisation and then grabbing power. Inde
89 RJdxer : Nice selection but not what I asked for... Everyone had a different idea as to what a post Saddam Iraq would look like. The majority of those quotes
90 Post contains links Baroque : http://politics.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,9115,1342003,00.html Not old Europe, but if I did not have my connections shaped I am sure I could fin
91 Post contains images Klaus : Never have two years looked more like an eternity...! Indeed, with the ordinary citizens desperately fighting for their very lives in between the fro
92 Post contains images Boeing4ever : I'm just lucky I'm in the insular world of college engineering...too much else going on. Sometimes it's just better not to focus on it. The biggest d
93 Klaus : The key might be in giving General Petraeus the means and the support to change the strategy and the tactics in a realistic way; And that would mean
94 RJdxer : A consensus that contains the words could, maybe, and what if is stable. Stable in that it is a guess as good as anyone elses. I ask again, what woul
95 Post contains links Baroque : For a run-down of the US record in wars, there is a book just out on unintended consequences. The authors were interviewed and an MP3 is available at
96 Post contains images Klaus : And the competence or incompetence of the leadership become apparent in how well they adapt to the changing realities in the field. You're desperatel
97 Post contains images Boeing4ever : The stubbornness of the administration and Rumsfeld's Pentagon at work. Usually discussions about where the troops are to go lead to the conclusion t
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