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Why Is Israel Important To The US?  
User currently offlineMbj-11 From Jamaica, joined Aug 2000, 386 posts, RR: 1
Posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 3411 times:

I've done a bit of research on the topic , but haven't really gotten a clear understanding of the relationship of both countries. Now this isn't a thread for people who are looking for someone to blast over the topic. I am genuinely curious as to the history and reasons behind Israel's importance to the US. Will those who "know" and can enlighten me please feel free to share the info. Much appreciated.


Jesus is the Christ and he alone saves
65 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSpeedbird747BA From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 3402 times:

Quoting Mbj-11 (Thread starter):
I've done a bit of research on the topic , but haven't really gotten a clear understanding of the relationship of both countries. Now this isn't a thread for people who are looking for someone to blast over the topic. I am genuinely curious as to the history and reasons behind Israel's importance to the US. Will those who "know" and can enlighten me please feel free to share the info. Much appreciated.

We have generally taken similar stances on certain key issues. Such as Israel itself.

Not that hard, really.

Cheers,
Kyle


User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 3400 times:

Quoting Mbj-11 (Thread starter):
I am genuinely curious as to the history and reasons behind Israel's importance to the US.

It's a democracy in a region of... not democracies.


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 3, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 3378 times:

The 'real-politik' is that the Jewish vote in the United States plays a big (in many states, probably decisive) part in deciding who gets into the White House and Congress:-

"According to one scenario, the Jewish vote might still be significant in determining the 2004 presidential election. Nine key states with significant Jewish populations account for 212 electoral votes or 78 percent of the total needed to secure the White House."

http://www.jcpa.org/jl/vp509.htm



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 3372 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 3):
"According to one scenario, the Jewish vote might still be significant in determining the 2004 presidential election.

The United States population is 2% Jewish.

The highest population density is in New York, at just under 10%.

By comparisson, almost 27% of the nation is Catholic.


User currently offlineATCT From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 2298 posts, RR: 38
Reply 5, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 3366 times:

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 2):
It's a democracy in a region of... not democracies.

I agree with this. This isnt a religion bashing thing, but the US was founded by "western" christians. The main basis for the country was Religous Freedom. I agree that we shouldnt support countries that are not represented by the people.

(On the other hand, I believe that people have the government they deserve).

ATCT



"The way to get started is to quit talking and begin doing." - Walt Disney
User currently offlineFlyMIA From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7185 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 3363 times:

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 2):
It's a democracy in a region of... not democracies.

That is the reason. If things get bad in the middle east it is very good to have Israel on your side. Israel is a very powerful country for its size and it a very important country for the US to try to keep the Middle East as peaceful as possible.

[Edited 2007-02-27 03:49:59]


"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineEmirates773ER From Pakistan, joined Jun 2005, 1450 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 3357 times:

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 2):
It's a democracy in a region of... not democracies.

 rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 

Seriously, that was a joke right?

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 4):

The United States population is 2% Jewish.

And how many of those people are in a position of great influence?



The Truth is Out There ---- Face It!!!!!
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 8, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 3349 times:

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 4):
The highest population density is in New York, at just under 10%

I was only quoting the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs, MDorBust. In any case, the point is that New York State counts for 31 electoral votes - a 10% swing either way would be 'decisive.'



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineRJpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 3345 times:

Quoting Mbj-11 (Thread starter):
I am genuinely curious as to the history and reasons behind Israel's importance to the US.

I'd suggest reading here for a general overview:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/.../US-Israel/roots_of_US-Israel.html

Part of the general reason for the strong United States-Israel relationship is the number of influential Americans who are pro-Israel. Just about every politician and influential decision maker in fields affecting United States-Israel relations has travelled to Israel...And travelling to Israel and seeing it firsthand leaves 99% of people being pro-Israel in some form or another...This runs the gambit from Continental Flight Attendants who fly EWR-TLV to special police units who train in Israel.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 3):
The 'real-politik' is that the Jewish vote in the United States plays a big (in many states, probably decisive) part in deciding who gets into the White House and Congress:-

Except that this theory alone can not explain the US-Israel relationship--The United States and Israel probably have the strongest or second strongest bilateral relationship of any country the US has relations with, and the "Jewish vote" alone simply can not explain that.

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 7):
Seriously, that was a joke right?

Care to name another democracy in the Middle East?

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 7):
And how many of those people are in a position of great influence?

Does that matter? Look at the Bush Administration..All of the top people (President, VP, Sec State, Sec Def, etc) are all non-Jews who are very pro-Israel.

Critics of Israel have never gotten over the fact that the US is pro-Israel for reasons other than a vast Jewish conspiracy. But of course it is easier to blame what you don't understand on some ancient stereotype.


User currently offlineRJpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 3340 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 8):
In any case, the point is that New York State counts for 31 electoral votes - a 10% swing either way would be 'decisive.'

Ok, I will grant you that it is very hard to be a politician in New York City and not be pro-Israel. But it still doesn't explain the fact that some of the most pro-Israel politicians are non-Jews with few Jewish constituents...People like Charlie Wilson or Tom DeLay in the past, and Trent Franks or Ileana Ros-Lehtinen today.


User currently offlineMbj-11 From Jamaica, joined Aug 2000, 386 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 3339 times:

Thanks for the link

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 9):



Jesus is the Christ and he alone saves
User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 3333 times:

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 7):
And how many of those people are in a position of great influence?

All of them.

Every single Jewish person in the United States is in a position of great power so that they might subjugate the masses and use us to their nefarious ends!

 sarcastic 

Get over it.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 8):
In any case, the point is that New York State counts for 31 electoral votes - a 10% swing either way would be 'decisive.'

So could the 38% that constitutes the Catholic vote.

After all, religions do vote in blocks right?

What does your source say about that?

Quote:
Among Jewish voters polled during the 2002 New York governor's race, 47 percent indicated they would consider supporting George W. Bush. A Luntz Research Poll in April 2003 showed that 48 percent of Jews surveyed said they would consider voting for Bush in 2004.

Oh well, there goes that block vote theory of yours.


User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 13, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 3327 times:

Quoting ATCT (Reply 5):
The main basis for the country was Religous Freedom.

Please don't fool yourself with this.

The thought that drove the creation of this country was that Europe had become too secular, and that the Puritans radical views on religion were massively out of sync with England and the rest of the "developed" world. The Puritans thought that everyone else in England had "lost their way" by being Catholic, or Protestant, or anything else, so they came here under the banner of "religious freedom" because the English didn't want people of their views around and they were under pressure by the state.

England basically exported us what were their religious zealots of the day, and that's why the United States is so far behind England, France, Germany and Spain in terms of cultural development. That's why they were called "Puritans". It was basically an extremist Christian cult. They never had any idea that we'd be overrun with Jews and Muslims and Taoists and Buddhists, which is why our Constitution and our laws are overrun with Christian lingo that give no thought to the cultural ideals of any other religions.

The actual new concept of the United States, the "main basis" which has made the US the greatest country on the planet is something we take for granted today - real estate. "Personal property" was a foreign concept to the world, and the actual thought of an everyday person owning a piece of land and being able to keep it for themselves, will it to their descendants, and sell it for a profit was unheard of.

Anyway, back to the regularly scheduled defense of Zion conversation.

NS


User currently offlineEmirates773ER From Pakistan, joined Jun 2005, 1450 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 3313 times:

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 9):

Care to name another democracy in the Middle East?

There are none, thus my point that why does the US consider all those middle east dictators as ally? Double Standards?



The Truth is Out There ---- Face It!!!!!
User currently offlineAA777 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 2544 posts, RR: 28
Reply 15, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 3311 times:

Quoting FlyMIA (Reply 6):
Israel is a very powerful country for its size and it a very important country for the US to try to keep the Middle East as peaceful as possible.

And who made them powerful?

-AA777


User currently offlineMaidensGator From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 945 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 3300 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 8):
Quoting MDorBust (Reply 4):
The highest population density is in New York, at just under 10%

I was only quoting the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs, MDorBust. In any case, the point is that New York State counts for 31 electoral votes - a 10% swing either way would be 'decisive.'

16% of the population of New York is Hispanic....
17% of the population of New York is African American....
52% of the population of New York is female....

The 10% doesn't look quite so "decisive"..... Granted it is a force to be reckoned with, but hardly dominant....



The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers.
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 17, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 3296 times:

Jews control most major American corporations, and some huge percentage of the US media.

Its not the Jews themselves voting that changes the direction.

NS


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 18, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 3277 times:

Quoting MaidensGator (Reply 16):
The 10% doesn't look quite so "decisive"..... Granted it is a force to be reckoned with, but hardly dominant....

Agree that it's open to question whether the US Jewish vote would actually swing en masse over the Israel question, MaidensGator. Personally I'm inclined to doubt that it would.

But what matters is that the politicians FEAR that it could happen. As far as I know, the Democrats are especially vulnerable, because they can currently count on about 70% of the Jewish vote - and they MUST do well in New York and California to have any chance of their candidate getting into the White House. The Reps need the 30% - more if they can get it - and the votes of the 'religious right,' which also has the (to me, regrettable) habit of taking the Bible literally.

What it boils down to is that no presidential candidate DARE profess anything less than 200% support for Israel.......just in case........



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 19, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 3268 times:

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 9):
Except that this theory alone can not explain the US-Israel relationship--The United States and Israel probably have the strongest or second strongest bilateral relationship of any country the US has relations with, and the "Jewish vote" alone simply can not explain that.

And the reasons go a long way back in US history. There was a recent program relevant to this on ABC (Oz type) but I cannot find it, instead I have a couple of links.
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/talks/8.30/relrpt/stories/s546326.htm
Wednesdays at 8.30am, repeated at 8.00pm

"Evangelicals for Israel 1 May 2002

Conservative Christian groups in the USA are showing strong sympathies toward Israel, and Israel is glad for the support - in spite of the fact that the evangelical plan for the Holy Land involves the second coming of Christ and the conversion of the Jews. "

There is a transcript of that.
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/latenightlive/stories/2005/1449546.htm
"Jesus and Jerusalem: Christian Zionists in Israel
Connections between evangelical Christians and the state of Israel have been intensifying over the last few years. As Israeli settlers were being moved out of Gaza a couple of weeks ago, American evangelicals lent their support, prayers and dollars to the cause.

Journalist Rebecca Sinderbrand has been covering the Gaza withdrawal for Newsweek. She grew up in a Jewish family who converted to evangelical Christianity. She recently wrote a series of dispatches for Slate magazine about Christians in Israel."
No transcript, it was before the days of MP3 - oh my gosh, that old, yes, 2005!!

There is a better one lurking in there, but each of about 20 different series are listed separately, and not knowing an exact title I was doing contact searches, but without luck.

The program I was after looks specifically at how more fundamentalist Christian groups in the US have found support for the Zionist movement to be attractive. But the ABC archives do not work as well as Google!!
It is somewhere in here!!
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/
That is Radio National.

If I ever find it mbj-11, I will message you. I have not given up! But the program is not that far from the ideas that Gigneil has in reply 13.

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 13):
Anyway, back to the regularly scheduled defense of Zion conversation.

There must be a very contrary person behind the search engine in the ABC because entering "US support for Zionism" tends to give hits for Anti-Zionism. Strange indeed are the ways of the world.


User currently offlineFlyMIA From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7185 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 3264 times:

Quoting AA777 (Reply 15):
And who made them powerful?

The US did, which is even more of a reason to have a such a good and important relationship with the country.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineRJpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 3257 times:

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 14):
There are none, thus my point that why does the US consider all those middle east dictators as ally? Double Standards?

The United States might have "allies" in the Middle East like Egypt and Saudi Arabia, but just about everyone realizes that this is for purely strategic reasons. Israel is the only country in the Middle East with American values and at the end of the day, any country's closest friends will be other countries that share similar values and concerns.


User currently offlineDL787932ER From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 597 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 3249 times:

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 13):

Most of that drivel doesn't merit a response, other than to point out that Puritans were almost nonexistent in a majority of the colonies and had lost most of their influence in the rest almost a century before the American Revolution. But you might want to note:

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 13):
"Personal property" was a foreign concept to the world, and the actual thought of an everyday person owning a piece of land and being able to keep it for themselves, will it to their descendants, and sell it for a profit was unheard of.

Private property in various forms, including real estate, has existed for millennia. The legal concept of real property, as in estates in land, started developing in England centuries before the revolution. And as for this:

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 17):
Jews control most major American corporations, and some huge percentage of the US media.

Did they sabotage our efforts in the Great War too? You should be ashamed of yourself.



F L Y D E L T A J E T S
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 23, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 3249 times:

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 21):
Israel is the only country in the Middle East with American values

Not ALL American values, surely? As far as I can gather it'll be a long time before Israel adopts the priniciples of the First Amendment, for a start?  Smile

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineNASCARAirforce From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3184 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 3243 times:

Quoting Baroque (Reply 19):
Conservative Christian groups in the USA are showing strong sympathies toward Israel, and Israel is glad for the support - in spite of the fact that the evangelical plan for the Holy Land involves the second coming of Christ and the conversion of the Jews. "



25 Emirates773ER : Lets get this straight, the US is allies with all those countries INCLUDING Israel for purely strategic reasons, and because the religious conservati
26 Post contains images LAXspotter : Israel is important is the region because it represents the only nation that is stable (other than Egypt or Jordan) key allies of the US. It is an imp
27 Post contains images Baroque : Ta, had not seen that one. A picture beats a thousand words!
28 HAWK21M : Democracy in The Middle East. regds MEL
29 LAXspotter : youre kidding right?
30 AndesSMF : I was going to say the same thing about what you wrote on this reply:
31 BigOrange : I think Emirates was trying to say that the idea that Israel is a democracy was a joke, something I tend to agree with
32 Post contains images Agill : Pff you must remember that : OMG TEH JOOOS RUNZ T3H WORLD BY USING CHEMTRAILS!!111
33 AGM100 : Democracy Freedom of religion Great education and advancments in science Flourishing arts and diverse lifestyles Please explain ,,, or do you not witn
34 Baroque : Just a guess, but the suggestion that Israel might not justify the term democracy is that a part of its population might not have the same rights and
35 RJpieces : Surely you are not familiar with Israeli-Arabs then.
36 Post contains links NAV20 : There is extensive discrimination against Israeli Arabs (indeed, all non-Jews) in Israel:- http://www.arabhra.org/factsheets/factsheet1.htm "The Zion
37 Post contains links Cairo : 1. Jews in America through their group that lobbies the US government: www.aipac.com 2. neocons, right-wing militarists, etc... who want to use the "
38 LAXspotter : Have to agree with one each and every one of your points.
39 Post contains images Baroque : Thanks Nav and Cairo, much better than I could have said those points.
40 HAWK21M : Is the Jewish Lobby in the US thgat powerfull. regds MEL
41 Post contains links Baroque : Try http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/mear01_.html For The Israel Lobby by John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt in London Book Review. For a disputation of t
42 AGM100 : Excuse for lack of forward thinking leaders. Another words why dont Arabs have lobbies if that is what it takes ... You guys need leaders that have a
43 Oly720man : Would there have been an Israel had there not been a WW2 and the genocide therein? Or was it always on the cards, but the way the Jews were treated by
44 RJpieces : Of course there is discrimination against Israeli Arabs, but need I remind you how Arabs/Muslims are treated in Europe or Australia???????? Have you
45 Baroque : Perhaps you do need to remind us about Australia and Arabs/Muslims here. You probably need to give us a rundown of the allegiances of the main Jewish
46 Post contains links RJpieces : http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4522326.stm As far as I know, most of them fought for the British. Moshe Dayan, later the famous Israeli defe
47 NAV20 : Would you kindly provide some historical evidence of that, AGM100? And I don't mean a few fragments of dubious folklore from the Old Testament. All t
48 Post contains links Oly720man : While the British were fighting the Nazis. Haganah with during the war, against after it Irgun, seemingly against apart from truce '40 to '43 Lehi/St
49 Post contains links NAV20 : And this is how, in 1946, they thanked the British Army for keeping Rommel out of Palestine and liberating the concentration camps. http://www.britain
50 RJpieces : Bullsh*t. Israel withdrew from Gaza expecting peace, and what did they get? Daily rocket fire and kidnapped soldiers. Ehud Olmert was elected on a pl
51 AGM100 : NAV20 , I do not have all the proof of this ... and I am not sure anyone does. But the UN did percieve and rule on the estabishment of the state. Tha
52 Post contains links Baroque : And the Cronulla riots have what to do with the legal rights of Muslims and Arabs? Not a thing. The do have a bit to do with social customs. Just tel
53 QR332 : Eh? If you want to talk about stable US allies, then you should remember Qatar, the UAE, Kuwait, Bahrain and Oman - all of which are friendly to the
54 Cairo : Because I believe that my own personal opinion as well as the whole middle eastern policy of my country should conform to the wishes of Jewish people
55 AndesSMF : Here is my question. Does this not apply to many countries? I mean, you can certainly say that about the US and most, if not all, of the entire conti
56 QR332 : I don't agree with that line of thinking at all - its like telling a rape victim that its happened to other women and that she should just deal with
57 AndesSMF : Interesting reply, left me thinking for a while... Correct me if I am wrong, but I get the feeling that many parties would NOT like the Palestinian i
58 AGM100 : 100% Correct , these are very well managed forward thinking countries who IMO understand the past and hold some traditions but also see the future. N
59 Post contains images Yellowstone : Slightly off topic, but the Native Americans in the US are hardly "living just fine." They still have much higher rates of unemployment, poverty, alc
60 Post contains links NAV20 : Not so, AGM100. UN Resolution 181 set up an Economic Union comprising Jewish and Arab states and a separate 'Special International Regime' covering J
61 AGM100 : Nav20 , This is the true and only road to peace anyways . I just happen to believe that the Jews could pull this of before the Muslims. Of course I a
62 Post contains images NAV20 : Couldn't agree more, AGM100. But, like you, I can't see how any such reconciliation can be achieved. Not least because the setting up of the State of
63 Baroque : And neither would your children.
64 HAWK21M : The Original plan has the Jewish Areas and Arab areas distributed in parts.This will never be practical to administer...Remember East & West Pakistan
65 QR332 : I think that is thrown around way too much - I have read countless time on this forum that Arab countries use the Palestinian issue as a smokescreen
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