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The US,Syrian And Israel-a Complex Relation?  
User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 1429 times:

In an articel published in the New York Times in January 2007,Israeli Historian MICHAEL B. OREN suggested a somewhat more complex approach to the Israeli-Syrian relation.
I quote :

"The potentially disparate positions of Israel and the United States on the question of peace with Syria could trigger a significant crisis between the two countries — the first of Mr. Bush’s expressly pro-Israel presidency. And yet, facing opposition from a peace-minded Democratic Congress and from members of his own party who have advocated a more robust American role in Middle East mediation, Mr. Bush would have difficulty in withholding approval from a comprehensive Syrian-Israeli agreement. "
The whole article is under :

here

Would that mean that inofficilally the Israelis are somewhat more pragmatic the the Bush-admin????


Please respect animals - don't eat them...
11 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21353 posts, RR: 54
Reply 1, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 1422 times:

Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter):
Would that mean that inofficilally the Israelis are somewhat more pragmatic the the Bush-admin????

With wide-ranging criminal and corruption scandals ravaging the israeli leadership, they better come up with a policy which actually improves something for a change, and be it just to save what's left of their own hides.

People can become very pragmatic when their own interests are at stake...!  mischievous 


User currently offlineConnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 2, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 1418 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 1):
With wide-ranging criminal and corruption scandals ravaging the israeli leadership, they better come up with a policy which actually improves something for a change, and be it just to save what's left of their own hides.

People can become very pragmatic when their own interests are at stake...! mischievous

 checkmark  Not many appear to have much integrity left -- this is also likely true of at least several non-Israeli leaders, to be sure.

Interesting to me that, although the US lists Syria on its' "Axis of Evil", it sub-contracts torture to Syria for 'persons of interest' in the all-encompassing GWOT. The more the GWOT continues, and the more self-contradictory actions of the West become, the more I get the impression that I'm living inside the novel "1984". Ironically, my father wanted to name me 'Winston'. I'm glad my mother over-ruled him.

Syria as a direct threat to Israel is a mere shell of what it was 25-30 yeards ago. The economy is a mess, I think it fair to say the majority of Syrians are p*ssed at the current regime. Wait a minute, that sounds like Israel, too. Yes, Syrian asistance still goes to Hezbollah, but then Israel has a bit to answer for regarding their actions in Lebanon, starting in the 1970s. Sabra-Shatila camp massacres, the South Lebanon Army, etc.

I think the chances of an Israeli-Syrian agreement are 50-50 and a little nudge from the US could help seal the deal. Would that it were so, and then some kind of rapprochement regarding Iran.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlineLY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 10
Reply 3, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1389 times:

Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 2):
Syria as a direct threat to Israel is a mere shell of what it was 25-30 yeards ago.

Israel is a mere shell of what it was 25-30 years ago. Syria on its own may not be an existential threat, but it's bad enough.

Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 2):
The economy is a mess, I think it fair to say the majority of Syrians are p*ssed at the current regime. Wait a minute, that sounds like Israel, too

Especially the word "regime", huh?  Yeah sure

Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 2):
Yes, Syrian asistance still goes to Hezbollah,

Yeah just a tiny little bit here and there, eh? But who's counting. It's nothing really. Boys will be boys!

Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 2):
but then Israel has a bit to answer for regarding their actions in Lebanon, starting in the 1970s.

And the Palestinians/Syrians/Iranians don't have some explaining to do about the shit that went on in Lebanon in the past 35 years?

Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 2):
I think the chances of an Israeli-Syrian agreement are 50-50

Maybe after another war.

Speaking of which, the Syrians seem to be pretty pleased with their part in what has been going on in Lebanon recently. So much so that as we speak they are busy building up a version of the Hezbollah on their own border with Israel. But I'm sure that if the Syrbollah kills/kidnaps some Israeli reservists guarding the border this coming summer, it will all still be Israel's fault. When Syrian artillery units (by then promptly stripped of Syrian markings/uniforms and renamed into the "Al-whatever Golan Martyrs Brigade") begin shelling norhtern Israel, it will also be Israel's fault for retaliating.


LY744.



Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 4, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 1380 times:

Quoting LY744 (Reply 3):
When Syrian artillery units (by then promptly stripped of Syrian markings/uniforms and renamed into the "Al-whatever Golan Martyrs Brigade") begin shelling norhtern Israel, it will also be Israel's fault for retaliating.

Come back to reality - Syria has no intention or reason to shell Israel in a moment where secret talks are held to normalize relationships. Media don't always look deep enough into matters and basiaclly sell news that are expected by 90% of their readers/watchers/listeners...
Damascus want's the Golan back and knows damm well it's not gonna happen by means of an armed conflict.
The Syrian army is in such a bad condition that half of their vehicles or aircraft are not usable.While it is true that Syria can be considered a supplier of logistics to Hezbollah,it is in no way a direct military threat to Israel.

[Edited 2007-03-04 22:56:20]


Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlineConnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 5, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 1362 times:

Quoting LY744 (Reply 3):
Yeah just a tiny little bit here and there, eh? But who's counting. It's nothing really. Boys will be boys!

The greatest by far amount of outside aid that goes to Hezbollah comes from Iran, let's be clear. Mr B Assad's regime in Damascus doesn't have the resources to meet the needs, basically.

Quoting LY744 (Reply 3):
Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 2):
but then Israel has a bit to answer for regarding their actions in Lebanon, starting in the 1970s.

And the Palestinians/Syrians/Iranians don't have some explaining to do about the shit that went on in Lebanon in the past 35 years?

Everyone has sh*t on their hands in this protracted affair. Israel cannot ever put itself forth as the assaulted virgin. Estimated 20K Lebanese dead as a result of Israeli activity over last 25 years (from current edition of "Harper's").

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 4):
Come back to reality - Syria has no intention or reason to shell Israel in a moment where secret talks are held to normalize relationships. Media don't always look deep enough into matters and basiaclly sell news that are expected by 90% of their readers/watchers/listeners...

 checkmark 



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlineLY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 10
Reply 6, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1350 times:

Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 5):
The greatest by far amount of outside aid that goes to Hezbollah comes from Iran, let's be clear. Mr B Assad's regime in Damascus doesn't have the resources to meet the needs, basically.

Look at a map and tell me how you think the Iranian goodies are making it into Lebanon. For bonus points, you can try to guess where Lebanese Hezbollah recruits board planes that take them to Iran.

Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 5):
Estimated 20K Lebanese dead as a result of Israeli activity over last 25 years (from current edition of "Harper's").

You realize how ridiculously vague that statement is, right?


LY744.



Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 7, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 1335 times:

Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 2):
Interesting to me that, although the US lists Syria on its' "Axis of Evil", it sub-contracts torture to Syria for 'persons of interest' in the all-encompassing GWOT.

You must be practicing for irony of the month Connies, and you may have won first shot!

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 4):
Come back to reality - Syria has no intention or reason to shell Israel in a moment where secret talks are held to normalize relationships.

Please Beaucaire, you dont need either intention or especially reason, you just go ahead and do that sort of thing - it is all the rage (pun intended). But most of all, what you need to do is suspect all and sundry of going to do that, which in turn allows you to do it as a defensive move. Most important to be defensive, so first set up all the prerequisites that allow you to do anything as a defence.

Quoting LY744 (Reply 6):
You realize how ridiculously vague that statement is, right?

"Dead" seems like a fairly concrete concept to me? No?


User currently offlineCairo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 1333 times:

Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter):
Would that mean that inofficilally the Israelis are somewhat more pragmatic the the Bush-admin????

When pragmatic is defined in terms of world politics, the first example is Israel. Whether you agree with them or not, the Israelis are without argument extraordinary at forwarding their pragmatic objectives....values, friendships and promises be damned, as long as the pragmatic goal is achieved.

Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 2):
Syria as a direct threat to Israel is a mere shell of what it was 25-30 yeards ago.

Syria, from my point of view, is basically a waystation for Iranian objectives. Syria is to Iran what Atlanta is to Delta: meaning it is theoretically the perfect transfer point, but not without its problems. Syria itself is incapable of forwarding a robust anti-Israeili lifestyle without the extreme Iranian oil wealth funding Hezbollah, (among other anti-Israeli groups.)

Syria does have some oil income, but it's nothing special. Syria with no Iranian petrodollars is no more dangerous than Egypt.

Quoting LY744 (Reply 3):
an existential threat

Existential? In the sense of Nietzsche and Kierkegaard? THAT is an interesting idea I'll have to think about for a few days.

Quoting LY744 (Reply 3):
Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 2):
Yes, Syrian asistance still goes to Hezbollah,

Yeah just a tiny little bit here and there,

I'm very sure the use of Syrian territory and logistical help is invovled, and probably some Syrian money, but as I say above, without Iran, I doubt if the Syrians are huge players in the anti-Israeli game, any more.

Quoting LY744 (Reply 6):
Look at a map and tell me how you think the Iranian goodies are making it into Lebanon.

Of course the Syrians are involved. Now, just for kicks and giggles, look at history and tell us which country made it possible for American weaponry to end up in the hands of the Iranians....when pragmatic 1980s era goals made this desirable. (hint: follow Michael Ledeen and his arms selling career)

Cairo


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21353 posts, RR: 54
Reply 9, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 1307 times:

Quoting Cairo (Reply 8):
When pragmatic is defined in terms of world politics, the first example is Israel. Whether you agree with them or not, the Israelis are without argument extraordinary at forwarding their pragmatic objectives....values, friendships and promises be damned, as long as the pragmatic goal is achieved.

Unfortunately many of their goals are being set by religious fanatics before the pragmatism kicks in to realize them... Sad


User currently offlineLY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 10
Reply 10, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1289 times:

Quoting Baroque (Reply 7):
"Dead" seems like a fairly concrete concept to me? No?

But "Israeli activity" sure the hell isn't.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 8):
Existential?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/existential

Quoting Cairo (Reply 8):
In the sense of Nietzsche and Kierkegaard? THAT is an interesting idea I'll have to think about for a few days.

Knock yourself out.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 8):
I'm very sure the use of Syrian territory and logistical help is invovled, and probably some Syrian money, but as I say above, without Iran, I doubt if the Syrians are huge players in the anti-Israeli game, any more.

The Syrians do what they can. Their help may be more logistical than that of Iran, but even then, the AT-13s didn't come from Iran.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 8):
look at history and tell us which country made it possible for American weaponry to end up in the hands of the Iranians

Two part answer:

a) America
b) Iran


LY744.



Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
User currently offlineLY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 10
Reply 11, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 1260 times:

Quoting LY744 (Reply 3):
Speaking of which, the Syrians seem to be pretty pleased with their part in what has been going on in Lebanon recently. So much so that as we speak they are busy building up a version of the Hezbollah on their own border with Israel. But I'm sure that if the Syrbollah kills/kidnaps some Israeli reservists guarding the border this coming summer, it will all still be Israel's fault. When Syrian artillery units (by then promptly stripped of Syrian markings/uniforms and renamed into the "Al-whatever Golan Martyrs Brigade") begin shelling norhtern Israel, it will also be Israel's fault for retaliating.


A little update on the budding Syrian freedom fighters. They started their career recently by claiming responsibility for abducting an Israeli soldier that has gone missing a decade ago.

Then last week, someone apparently picked up some Israeli landmines and tossed them over the fence on to the patrol road used by the Israeli military to observe the border. The Syrbollah has claimed responsibility for that too. Hopefully this is true, because if they keep mounting such "attacks" this problem will essentially solve itself, Darwin award style.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070304/...p_on_re_mi_ea/israel_syria_mines_1


LY744.



Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
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