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Should A Country Be Paid Reparations For Slavery?  
User currently offlineMbj-11 From Jamaica, joined Aug 2000, 386 posts, RR: 1
Posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 1863 times:

Many "alleged" Third world countries were made so by the plundering of former colonial masters who used the gains to develop their own "first world" nations. These nations and their citizens I am sure would fight tooth and nail to refuse such a pay back as it would be a massive pay out which would no doubt make them into Third World countries.Unfortunately as one whose homeland was a victim of the horrendous system I say alas, we might as well let it go.What is your view on the topic.


Jesus is the Christ and he alone saves
35 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRichardPrice From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 1841 times:

Im against slavery, and what happened was appalling and a dreadful thing, but...

I have nothing to apologise for, I have nothing to repay anyone for, its not my fault, it has never been my fault and I dont see why I should be held in any way responsable for the actions of people a hundred years or more ago.

These countries have had a century to get it together, and they havent. Many third world countries are poor and destitute because of poor leadership, not because the events of a century or more ago have continuing and ongoing repurcussions.

Take as an example India - its taken them less than 50 years to go from a colony of the British Empire to an extremely strong, relatively rich and powerful independant country.

To all such countries - Stop whining and start taking responsability for your own problems.

[Edited 2007-03-10 23:05:24]

User currently offlineDisruptivehair From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2007, 598 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 1835 times:

No reparations. It's a slippery slope.

I think the US has paid a high enough price for its legacy of slavery. It's time to move on.


User currently offlineDeltaGator From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 6341 posts, RR: 13
Reply 3, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 1829 times:

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 1):
I have nothing to apologise for, I have nothing to repay anyone for, its not my fault, it has never been my fault and I dont see why I should be held in any way responsable for the actions of people a hundred years or more ago.

My family owned slaves in the 1800s and before and I have nothing to apologize for, nothing to repay anyone, or feel any sort of blame for what happened under such a system that was legal at the time. Even with slaves our family is no "old money" family sitting around counting the millions made on the backs of others. We worked our butts off to get where we are today and what my ancestors did more than 100 years ago has no effect on anyone today.

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 1):
To all such countries - Stop whining and start taking responsability for your own problems.

The same could be said for certain groups in the US that would rather bitch and moan versus taking control of their lives and stop blaming others for their problems when the least little thing (or hurricane) happens.



"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
User currently offlineDisruptivehair From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2007, 598 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 1823 times:

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 3):

The same could be said for certain groups in the US that would rather bitch and moan versus taking control of their lives and stop blaming others for their problems when the least little thing (or hurricane) happens.

Thank you...glad I'm not the only one who feels that way! You ought to see some people over here...they blame us for the UK's gun crime problems, drug problems, obese kids, etc. I get so sick of it.  banghead 


User currently offlineTransWorldSTL From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 568 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 1799 times:

Wasn't there recently a movement to get former slave states to apologize to black people? It's stupid.

I don't expect states to publicly apologize to me for banning gay marriage a hundred years from now, when gays are finally given the same rights as straight couples.


And I made the comparison between slavery and gay marriage, because back during the times of slavery, people just honestly believed that black people were 2nd rate humans. Eventually society outgrew those thoughts, but in present times, some people honestly believe that being gay is a choice, and we shouldn't be given the same rights as everyone else.. Eventually (I hope!) society will outgrow these thoughts as well, and the gay marriage/rights debate will be something people look back on and think "Why did anyone ever try to ban gay marriage???"


User currently offlineEWRCabincrew From United States of America, joined May 2006, 5525 posts, RR: 56
Reply 6, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 1794 times:

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 3):
The same could be said for certain groups in the US that would rather bitch and moan versus taking control of their lives and stop blaming others for their problems when the least little thing (or hurricane) happens.



Quoting Disruptivehair (Reply 4):
Thank you...glad I'm not the only one who feels that way! You ought to see some people over here...they blame us for the UK's gun crime problems, drug problems, obese kids, etc. I get so sick of it.

It's easier to blame others than it is to take blame yourself.

My ancestors weren't even in this country when slavery was here (mind you that statement in no way means I agree with it). My ancestors had their own set of problems.

As far as reparations go, an apology is a good way to start. Too much time has passed to put a dollar amount on it. What would mean more to those who were enslaved would be never to let it happen again. If we were to give reparations to countries that were directly involved in slave trade, where do we stop?

Slavery was a terrible blight on any countries history. It was not just the US (and it continues to this day in other forms (sex slaves, work slaves, child slaves) that was involved.

What matters is the fact it should not continue. Focus on that.



You can't cure stupid
User currently offlineTeamAmerica From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 1761 posts, RR: 23
Reply 7, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 1783 times:

"Sins of the father" eh? We commonly acknowledge that laws cannot be applied retroactively, and yet this reparations nonsense keeps coming up - retroactive morality. Archeology demonstrates that empires have existed in all parts of the world and throughout history. The phenomenon is not limited to the current "first world" nations - it is in fact a product of human nature. The actions of our ancestors may be deplorable by current standards, but in those earlier times most people accepted the building of empires as lawful.

Yes, you should let it go, but not because it's a hopeless cause. You should let it go because it's a fallacy that you are owed anything. Best to make your own way in life and not ask for handouts.

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 1):
To all such countries - Stop whining and start taking responsability for your own problems.

 checkmark Agree with your entire post.

Quoting Disruptivehair (Reply 2):
I think the US has paid a high enough price for its legacy of slavery. It's time to move on.

The original post doesn't mention slavery, so I'm not sure why you responded this way. In any case, the US was not the only nation that ever had slavery...in fact slavery existed in the colonies prior the formation of the United States. In that sense, slavery was a product of imperialism that has left lasting damage to our nation. Perhaps we should demand reparations from Britain and Spain?

Quoting TransWorldSTL (Reply 5):
a hundred years from now, when gays are finally given the same rights as straight couples.

A bit tangential, don't you think? "Same rights" is closer than most gays seem to realize...what you're driving at is more like "full acceptance" and that sort of cultural change is difficult to predict.



Failure is not an option; it's an outcome.
User currently offlineDisruptivehair From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2007, 598 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 1764 times:

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 7):
The original post doesn't mention slavery, so I'm not sure why you responded this way. In any case, the US was not the only nation that ever had slavery...in fact slavery existed in the colonies prior the formation of the United States. In that sense, slavery was a product of imperialism that has left lasting damage to our nation. Perhaps we should demand reparations from Britain and Spain?

Heh; if you bring that up with the British they'll smugly remind you that they banned slavery before we did, and it didn't take a war that killed 500,000 people to do it. They fought bigger and longer wars over far more petty issues, though, and they pretty much set the slave trade in motion; so as far as I'm concerned they're just as culpable as we are...if not more so. How soon they forget their imperialist past!


User currently offlineSrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 1759 times:

No, because the countries in Africa didn't even exist in their current form at the time that the African slave trade to the Americas was at its' height. Nearly all of the countries in Africa are the result of colonial powers establishing borders (This is the root cause of some of the civil wars and genocide in Africa, but that's a subject for another thread.). In some cases, it was the tribal leaders themselves that sold their own people into slavery.

User currently offlineTransWorldSTL From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 568 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 1747 times:

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 7):
"Same rights" is closer than most gays seem to realize...what you're driving at is more like "full acceptance" and that sort of cultural change is difficult to predict.

Oh really?

Then explain to me why gay partners can't fulfill the others wishes when they're incapacitated in the hospital?
Why do gay partners have no rights over each others wishes as far as funerals/estates/etc go?
Why can my Missouri employer come up to me one day and say "You're gay. You can't work here", when they can't do the same thing to a black person?

I could go on.


User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 1745 times:

Quoting Mbj-11 (Thread starter):
Many "alleged" Third world countries were made so by the plundering of former colonial masters who used the gains to develop their own "first world" nations. These nations and their citizens I am sure would fight tooth and nail to refuse such a pay back as it would be a massive pay out which would no doubt make them into Third World countries.

When you are talking about things that happenned to people who are all long-dead, such as the slaves, there is no stopping it anymore. Should the US sue Britain for its abuses? How about Britain suing France (or at least the population of Normandy) for having invaded England in 1066 and subjecting it to a brutal repression (why do you think all those castles were built around the British countryside?).

It was a different world back then. I say leave it be and get on with your lives.

As far as the third world goes, It's all about eliminating the culture of coruption which is the trademark of the third world. Every third world leader seems to be intent on getting millions (even billions) of dollars into his own personal bank account before he is either thrown out or assassinated, and this mentality is contagious throughout the government.


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17541 posts, RR: 46
Reply 12, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 1745 times:

I have a tough time punishing someone today for sins that their distant forefathers committed. But who do you pay? Take Ghana for example. It was a major source of slaves for the Americas, but all those slaves could not have gotten to the forts that put them on the ships without the help of the natives. Moreover, the natives themselves had a history of slavery. Do you pay Ghana? Do you only pay the Ghanaians that are descendant from tribes that weren't complicit in the slave trade?


E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineAA787823 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 1721 times:

I personally dont think there should be payments. That was a long time ago, and whats done is done. You can open a can of worms and have all other types then demanding payments

[Edited 2007-03-11 03:07:44]

User currently offlineAC773 From Canada, joined Nov 2005, 1730 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 1709 times:

Quoting Mbj-11 (Thread starter):
Many "alleged" Third world countries were made so by the plundering of former colonial masters who used the gains to develop their own "first world" nations.

Well, you do have a point. Before the Spanish and British came through Jamaica, it was one of the world's leading sugar-exporting nations. Jamaica had formed a government, set up a national infrastructure, and built large ships so that all that sugar could be exported and sold to countries that wanted it. Also, the British and Spanish were both a lot of blithering, impoverished idiots who couldn't do anything to help themselves before they began the slave trade.

Oh wait, that's not how it happened. How silly of me!  Yeah sure



Better to be nouveau than never to have been riche at all.
User currently offlineMbj-11 From Jamaica, joined Aug 2000, 386 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 1699 times:

Quoting AC773 (Reply 14):
Well, you do have a point. Before the Spanish and British came through Jamaica, it was one of the world's leading sugar-exporting nations. Jamaica had formed a government, set up a national infrastructure, and built large ships so that all that sugar could be exported and sold to countries that wanted it. Also, the British and Spanish were both a lot of blithering, impoverished idiots who couldn't do anything to help themselves before they began the slave trade

ahh ... the bliss of the educated



Jesus is the Christ and he alone saves
User currently offlineMCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8677 posts, RR: 16
Reply 16, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 1693 times:

I'm against it period. I dispise of it and feel bad for those who are slaves.

MCOflyer



Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 17, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 1688 times:

Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 6):
What matters is the fact it should not continue. Focus on that.

Odd how many threads there are on sins past and so few on how to stop a current widespread and pernicious set of practices.

Would any countries claiming to be innocent of CURRENT slavery, please indicate their innocence?


User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 18, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 1653 times:

Quoting Disruptivehair (Reply 8):
and they pretty much set the slave trade in motion; so as far as I'm concerned they're just as culpable as we are...if not more so. How soon they forget their imperialist past!

Not remotely true. Britain came to the slave trade later than any other European country and then were first to abolish it. None of that makes the slightest difference in terms of the evil of slavery, but if you're going to slag us off, at least get your facts right. As for "forgetting" our imperial past, that's just nonsense. British self-flagellation over empire has gone one for years and years, and all too often people aren't aware of the other side of the coin.

Equally, though Britain is definitely culpable to a major degree for the slave trade, it is still a fact that not only did Britain abolish the slave trade first, but also imposed that abolition on everyone else, enforcing it through the Royal Navy, and stopping ships of all flags and registry (including the United States) to free them. If you're going to talk about "petty" wars, you might at least acknowledge that successive British governments told the US to take a hike when they termed British policy an act of war.

There is a great deal to be ashamed of in British history, but there are also elements to be rather proud about. Forcing the end of the slave trade upon an extremely unwilling world is one of them.



She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlineTZ757300 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 2869 posts, RR: 6
Reply 19, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 1641 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 12):
But who do you pay?

This post is about American Slavery, not other countries that had it.

We actually had a whole 2 day discussion on this issue. If you were going to pay the descendants of slaves reperations for slavery, you would have to root through at least 4 generations of a family tree to figure out who gets money. For each slave, I could imagine at least 50 or more people getting money for them. Multiply that by say, 1,000,000, and you have a very large chunk of the country getting money. Once you figure out that, how much should be paid? If you get aside 100 million dollars for reparations, each person would get $10 and that doesn't mean squat in terms of todays economy. But if you go the other way and say each person get $500, that would be 500 million dollars going to where money can be better spent.

On a personal note, I think people who ask for reparations, are really just trying to make a quick buck. Yes, it is quite unfortunate that your ancestors were slaves, but please, don't ask for money. If you really want a thing for reparation, build a African-American History Museum, and cherish what the slaves sacrificed their lives for. Remember slaves, don't make a buck off of them.

We actually paid a reparation, The Civil War, the north ended slavery in the South. How much more can we give out?

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 3):
The same could be said for certain groups in the US that would rather bitch and moan versus taking control of their lives and stop blaming others for their problems when the least little thing (or hurricane) happens.

Yes, I feel the same way too. I'm sure the reason they can't get their lives together due to a lack of money supply from the Fed's. They'll complain about the money flow, the media will complain about the money flow, but you know what, Nobody is asking for change. If they really want money that bad, scream for reforming the process, that way money will get to you. Just don't sit on your lazy ass.



LETS GO MOUNTAINEERS!
User currently offlineTeamAmerica From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 1761 posts, RR: 23
Reply 20, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 1586 times:

Quoting TransWorldSTL (Reply 10):
Oh really?

Yes, really. Depends a whole lot on where you live. The country as a whole is certainly moving to a more live-and-let-live attitude.

Quoting TransWorldSTL (Reply 10):
Then explain to me why gay partners can't fulfill the others wishes when they're incapacitated in the hospital?
Why do gay partners have no rights over each others wishes as far as funerals/estates/etc go?
Why can my Missouri employer come up to me one day and say "You're gay. You can't work here", when they can't do the same thing to a black person?

As I said, these things depends very much on where you are. Legal rights specific to gays (civil unions etc.) vary widely in our country. Employer policies vary widely too. Many companies would protect you from such treatment, and many states have laws that include gays as a "protected class".

I've never lived in Missouri and can't speak to the environment there. If you don't like how you're treated, vote with your feet!



Failure is not an option; it's an outcome.
User currently offlineTransWorldSTL From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 568 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 1574 times:

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 20):
As I said, these things depends very much on where you are. Legal rights specific to gays (civil unions etc.) vary widely in our country. Employer policies vary widely too. Many companies would protect you from such treatment, and many states have laws that include gays as a "protected class".

I've never lived in Missouri and can't speak to the environment there. If you don't like how you're treated, vote with your feet!

The things I mentioned should be national rights.. I shouldn't have to weigh my decision on what state to live in by whether I could get fired for being gay, or whether I have the right to get my partner's medical wishes fulfilled.

I don't live in Missouri either, so I can't vote for rights over there. I live in Illinois, where luckily, I'm protected from employer discrimination.. I pay both IL and MO income taxes, and I deal with over 2 million people every year (most being from Missouri), so it was a real kick in the pants when Missouri voted to ban gay marriage, knowing the people that I help make happy every day are the same people who voted to keep gays from being happy.


User currently offlineAerorobNZ From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7209 posts, RR: 13
Reply 22, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 1561 times:

No. Just like they shouldn't pay reparations to indigenous cultures (in NZs case the Maori) . It was culturally acceptable to do many things at the time, but that are now abhorrent to modern culture. Most cultures used to burn witches/gays,kill those who didn't agree with those in power etc etc but we don't pay out descendants of people were executed by the draconian laws of the day and later pardoned.

User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 1559 times:

Would African nation have to pay reparations to themselves for the slave trade? It's not like the slave trade consisted of Europeans walking around in Africa randomly grabbing people and putting them on boats. It's convenient to forget that different ethnic groups were selling each other to the Europeans.

User currently offlinePelican From Germany, joined Apr 2004, 2531 posts, RR: 8
Reply 24, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 1557 times:

Quoting Banco (Reply 18):
Britain came to the slave trade later than any other European country and then were first to abolish it.

Well, that is quite an interesting claim  Wink

pelican


25 MKEdude : As the recent revelation about the relationship between Strom Thurmond and Al Sharpton reveal, slavery is not ancient history. Here in the United Stat
26 MaverickM11 : But how do you isolate American slavery when it was part of a major triangle trade route involving major players in Europe, Africa, and the Americas?
27 DeltaGator : Very true. In simple terms, race warlords like Sharpton, Jackson, and assorted others like them will never allow something like that to happen. To th
28 TZ757300 : Well, I have no knowledge on African or European slavery so I didn't talk about it. I was just talking about the effect of reparations in the US, no
29 Baroque : You can talk about it as if it only affected the US, but that is not the case and the thread starter did not request that either. MaverickM11 is corr
30 TZ757300 : You are putting words in my mouth. All I was referring to is the US. I have not denied there is/was slavery across the world. Slavery in the US was i
31 Post contains images Baroque : Indeed, but it did not preclude it either. Past slavery is still a problem, but the current version is even more of a problem. It seems unfortunate i
32 Disruptivehair : As far as I'm concerned all that is is evening the score; the British imposed so much misery upon people all over the planet that 'stopping the slave
33 Tz757300 : And I don't know why you are feeling that way. I can say that slavery has been non-existant in this country for plentt of years now. If that's not tr
34 Post contains links Baroque : Take your pick from http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/world/slavery/default.stm but http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4521921.stm Will do for start
35 Jafa39 : If you do that then the people who live in Cornwall will also have to claim reparations from Denmark for the Danelaw. African people will have to clai
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