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Why Do We Experience Holocaust Guilt?  
User currently offlineBlackbird From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 6 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 2224 times:

I don't get it. I wasn't, and many of you weren't alive when it happened, virtually none of us endorse such things, so why do we feel guilt over it?

Andrea Kent
Should I disappear mysteriously, have a heart-attack, die under suspicious circumstances, commit suicide, be arrested on bogus charges, or get some form of intractible cancer (not making this one up--there are chemicals that can be used to induce cancer in lab-rats-- humans also, but they're used on rats for researching cures for cancer), you know who to blame

[Edited 2007-03-20 23:02:44]

83 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRichardPrice From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (7 years 6 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 2206 times:

Quoting Blackbird (Thread starter):
I don't get it. I wasn't, and many of you weren't alive when it happened, virtually none of us endorse such things, so why do we feel guilt over it?

I dont think its that clear cut - you are *expected* to show guilt over it, but it doesnt mean you actually do feel that guilt. Its a guilt that society forces you to put forward because of the social stereotyping that is applied to you if you dont - in a lot of cases you are labelled because you dont follow the social norm that is accepting guilt for a raft of evils that you actually have nothing to do with.

Holocaust, slavery, colonial brutality, genocide of indigenous peoples - and many more.

[Edited 2007-03-20 23:10:50]

User currently offlineSKYSERVICE_330 From Canada, joined Sep 2000, 1419 posts, RR: 5
Reply 2, posted (7 years 6 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 2193 times:

Quoting Blackbird (Thread starter):
I don't get it. I wasn't, and many of you weren't alive when it happened, virtually none of us endorse such things, so why do we feel guilt over it?

I don't feel guilt. Sympathy and compassion for those who were affected by it for sure and I also think it is important to remember that it occurred and the victims of it. Obviously I wish it had never happened, but I definately don't feel guilty.

Can you elaborate a bit? Who/what makes you feel guilty about it? Could you have personally prevented it- no, then why should you feel guilty about it?

Quoting Blackbird (Thread starter):
Should I disappear mysteriously, have a heart-attack, die under suspicious circumstances, commit suicide, be arrested on bogus charges, or get some form of intractible cancer (not making this one up--there are chemicals that can be used to induce cancer in lab-rats-- humans also, but they're used on rats for researching cures for cancer), you know who to blame

WTF??!

[Edited 2007-03-20 23:17:35]

User currently onlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20640 posts, RR: 62
Reply 3, posted (7 years 6 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 2181 times:

I didn't know that people experienced holocaust guilt on a general basis. The only real experience I've had close to it was when a friend visited Hamburg about a dozen years ago, and he wore an ActUp tshirt with a pink triangle on it. So many people pointed at him on the street and said unintelligible comments in German to him, within about 5 minutes he went back to his hotel to put on a different shirt. Only later did he discover that Nazi symbols were outlawed in Germany, which probably explained the reaction he got.


International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineDisruptivehair From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2007, 598 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (7 years 6 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 2177 times:

Quoting Blackbird (Thread starter):
I don't get it. I wasn't, and many of you weren't alive when it happened, virtually none of us endorse such things, so why do we feel guilt over it?

Simple...I don't. I feel sorrow, which is a completely different emotion.


User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11655 posts, RR: 60
Reply 5, posted (7 years 6 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 2162 times:

I don't feel guilt, I only hope that we have learnt something from history in order for these things to never happen again.


...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlineRichardPrice From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (7 years 6 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 2157 times:

Quoting SKYSERVICE_330 (Reply 2):
Sympathy and compassion for those who were affected



Quoting Disruptivehair (Reply 4):
I feel sorrow, which is a completely different emotion.

I agree with both of these.


User currently offlineRJpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (7 years 6 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2131 times:

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 5):
I don't feel guilt, I only hope that we have learnt something from history in order for these things to never happen again.

 checkmark  Ditto.


User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 8, posted (7 years 6 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2108 times:

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 5):
I only hope that we have learnt something from history in order for these things to never happen again.

That's our common hope, but unfortunately, Mankind has NOT learned from history and is still in some way continuing with genocide (e.g. Darfur, Sudan, the Ethnic Cleansing campaigns authorised by Milosevic in Bosnia-Herzegovina and Kosovo, the genocide in Rwanda, etc.). These examples I listed can never be compared to how organised and brutal the Holocaust was, but in the end, genocide is genocide.

My hope is that one day, we finally get rid of this urge for self destruction and this racism that is in our society, so we can dedicate ourselves to working together and peacefully coexisting with other people, regardless of where they come from, what the colour of their skin is, or what religion they believe in.


User currently offlineMD-90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 8507 posts, RR: 12
Reply 9, posted (7 years 6 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2091 times:

I don't.

That's probably because I support the excellent human rights group Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership (JPFO).


User currently offlineLehpron From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 7028 posts, RR: 21
Reply 10, posted (7 years 6 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2090 times:

I will show repesct for those who died in my own way, but not for a second will I act like I should take responsibility just because I am also a mortal human being.


The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21467 posts, RR: 53
Reply 11, posted (7 years 6 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2082 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 3):
I didn't know that people experienced holocaust guilt on a general basis. The only real experience I've had close to it was when a friend visited Hamburg about a dozen years ago, and he wore an ActUp tshirt with a pink triangle on it. So many people pointed at him on the street and said unintelligible comments in German to him, within about 5 minutes he went back to his hotel to put on a different shirt. Only later did he discover that Nazi symbols were outlawed in Germany, which probably explained the reaction he got.

Hard to say what the comments were about, but the pink triangle is not a banned nazi symbol. It has been adopted by the gay movement here as elsewhere as a symbol of persecution and is used here in Germany that way. As unfortunate as any hostile comments have been, they were probably homophobic rather than political.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 8):
Mankind has NOT learned from history

It would be naive to expect that humanity would "snap out of it" just like that. Every wide-ranging improvement has been a slow and gradual development with few and still limited jumps forward in some places while suffering setbacks in others.

Still, war, genocide and violence have once been the norm rather than the exception. We've already come a long way since then, especially in Europe. But there's no doubt this journey is far from over, particularly on the global scale.


User currently offlineBlackbird From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (7 years 6 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2074 times:

I just think some people really exploit the holocaust for pity. It was obviously a tragic series of events, and it should not be ever allowed to happen again, but it really just gets under my skin when a certain group of people go on and on about the holocaust more for pity than to make sure it would never happen again.

I also dislike the attitude where you're only allowed to criticize the Arabs for what happens in the middle east, but if you criticize Israel, you're anti-semitic. How is it racist to criticize a nation? Israel is supposed to be a secular country, where even some Arabic Israeli's live. It takes two to tango usually, and it really gets nothing done if you're not allowed to criticize the wrongs of both sides. Israel has done it's share of wrong-doings, yet for some reason they're off limits. There is virtually no discussion in America over Israel's misconduct, just the Arabs. Why? Because if an American criticized Israel, they'd be instantly labled anti-semitic (even though it's not racist to criticize a country), then they'd be compared to the Nazi's, and the holocaust would be brought up and everybody would be expected to fall for the "Poor Me" "Poor Me" thing-- and they do!

I don't support either group of people. I think they have both caused their share of grief, and both sides refuse to acknowledge the atrocities committed on their side, and simply blame the other side. I think until both sides can be criticized openly, and until both sides will acknowledge their own mis-deeds and take responsibility, peace in the middle-east will never happen.

Sincerely,
Andrea Kent


User currently offlineLY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (7 years 6 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2061 times:

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 12):
I also dislike the attitude where you're only allowed to criticize the Arabs for what happens in the middle east, but if you criticize Israel, you're anti-semitic.

No you're not.

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 12):
Israel is supposed to be a secular country, where even some Arabic Israeli's live. It takes two to tango usually, and it really gets nothing done if you're not allowed to criticize the wrongs of both sides.

You can criticize whoever you want.

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 12):
Israel has done it's share of wrong-doings, yet for some reason they're off limits.

No they're not.

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 12):
There is virtually no discussion in America over Israel's misconduct

Yes there is.

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 12):
Why? Because if an American criticized Israel, they'd be instantly labled anti-semitic

Then the person labeling you, err, I mean the arbitrary American, would be a moron.

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 12):
even though it's not racist to criticize a country

Sure isn't.

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 12):
then they'd be compared to the Nazi's

Again, it would take a moron to make that comparison.

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 12):
and the holocaust would be brought up and everybody would be expected to fall for the "Poor Me" "Poor Me" thing-- and they do!

Now THAT's tragic!

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 12):
I don't support either group of people. I think they have both caused their share of grief, and both sides refuse to acknowledge the atrocities committed on their side, and simply blame the other side.

That's a pretty healthy attitude. Good for you.

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 12):
I think until both sides can be criticized openly, and until both sides will acknowledge their own mis-deeds and take responsibility, peace in the middle-east will never happen.

That's lovely too.



Are you happy now? Couldn't we get to the point of the thread right off the bat, perhaps with the aid of a more appropriate title?

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 12):
I just think some people really exploit the holocaust for pity. It was obviously a tragic series of events

"Tragic series of events"... So like one day Hitler made a joke about killing Jews/Gypsies/gays, somebody took him a little too seriously, one thing led to another, and before you know it, poof! A few million people gone. Oops! Like that?  Yeah sure


LY744.



Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21467 posts, RR: 53
Reply 14, posted (7 years 6 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2050 times:

There is still plenty of racism, anti-semitism and any kind of other hatreds around, so we're far removed from being able relegate the holocaust to the history books.

Yes, there are certainly some people who try to use the holocaust to their respective advantage. But the best way to respond to that is to actively and openly confront the memory of the mass murder and persecution.

Millions of people have been murdered, orphaned or traumatized, and any attitude which doesn't acknowledge and respect that fact is ignorant, stupid and despicable, even more so for any german than for anybody else.

I've been born after the war, so I don't feel guilt, but I still can't fault any jew or any other direct or indirect victim for having mixed feelings about any german or any mention of our nationality.

Deserved or not by later generations, it's part of a shitty deal which has been made before our time and which still continues to hurt people, more so on the victim's side, but still painful on the other.

It can't be "enough" in any way, but for my part I'm glad that we as a society are at least trying to mend most of the wounds which still exist. Not an easy thing to do, but there's simply no viable alternative.


User currently offlineGQfluffy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (7 years 6 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2047 times:

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 12):
I just think some people really exploit the holocaust for pity.

You can say the same thing about the Civil War...  duck 


User currently offlineBlackbird From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (7 years 6 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2036 times:

LY,

While, I know it's obviously not anti-semitic to criticise a country, a lot of Jewish people seem to hold such a view. While you may be wise enough to realize I'm right, many do not.

Maybe discussion over Israeli wrongdoing is not *totally* off-limits, but there is a great degree of limitations as to the degree of criticism you can make. Go one step over that line and you get labled anti-semitic by some. Some will even lable you a traitor and question where you got your informatioin from, insinuating you get your information from pro-arab sources, which is simply not true. Discussion over Israeli's conduct in the US of A, is heavily restricted.

I'm a mass-debator. I debate a lot with people, and I've been accused of being anti-semitic, and there has been at least one circumstance where a person I know was compared to being a nazi.

I don't know about you, but isn't it wrong to use the holocaust-- something that happened a long long time ago to elicit a pity party? I personally believe it to be wrong to use the holocaust as grounds for a pity party-- especially when it wasn't only the Jews that suffered... lots of people suffered as a result of the holocaust, the Polish, the Gypsies, the Greeks, massive loads of Russians as well.

I felt labling the thread "Why do we let Jewish people use the holocaust as a pity party, and why do we keep falling for it over and over again" would probably be considered inflammatory, even though my intention was not to inflame, but to start meaningful discussion. Plus it probably wouldn't fit in the text-area.

I think you know what I meant in regards to a tragic series of events. I did NOT mean Hitler made some jokes and *POOF!*, six million dead.

Andrea Kent


User currently offlineKiwiinOz From New Zealand, joined Oct 2005, 2165 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (7 years 6 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 2021 times:

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 16):
I don't know about you, but isn't it wrong to use the holocaust-- something that happened a long long time ago to elicit a pity party? I personally believe it to be wrong to use the holocaust as grounds for a pity party-- especially when it wasn't only the Jews that suffered... lots of people suffered as a result of the holocaust, the Polish, the Gypsies, the Greeks, massive loads of Russians as well.

I think the reality is, there are still many people who are alive that went through the holocaust. For them, I imagine it's pretty real, and it affects them every day. Likewise, the generation below them, as they would have had to deal with the long term affects as well. Generation by generation, the impact gets less.

If you think about it from an individual point of view. If you were raped, tortured, and watched all your friends and family get killed next to you, how long do you think you would take to get over it? Would it affect you forever? Probably. Would you be pissed off if people dismissed your experience as insignificant? Probably. Would you over compensate for parts of society neglecting the gravity of your experience by screaming out for pity? Probably. Now multiply that scenario to cover a whole society. I would be making damn sure the world didn't forget what happened to me either if I was them.

In terms of the "guilt" that you asked about.....Maybe that's a case of considering ourselves human, with shared responsibility, rather than just saying, "Oh, that was the Germans.....". Even though I have no personal or family connection to the holocaust, I feel a little ashamed that my fellow humans are capable of such things


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21467 posts, RR: 53
Reply 18, posted (7 years 6 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 2014 times:

Quoting KiwiinOz (Reply 17):
If you think about it from an individual point of view. If you were raped, tortured, and watched all your friends and family get killed next to you, how long do you think you would take to get over it? Would it affect you forever? Probably. Would you be pissed off if people dismissed your experience as insignificant? Probably. Would you over compensate for parts of society neglecting the gravity of your experience by screaming out for pity? Probably. Now multiply that scenario to cover a whole society. I would be making damn sure the world didn't forget what happened to me either if I was them.

Indeed. The right of all the victims to be recognized is essential.

Quoting KiwiinOz (Reply 17):
I feel a little ashamed that my fellow humans are capable of such things

Exactly.


User currently offlineRJpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (7 years 6 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 2008 times:

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 16):
I felt labling the thread "Why do we let Jewish people use the holocaust as a pity party, and why do we keep falling for it over and over again" would probably be considered inflammatory, even though my intention was not to inflame, but to start meaningful discussion. Plus it probably wouldn't fit in the text-area.

And you wonder why some people call you an anti-semite?

From your original post, I thought it was an honest academic question that deserves a fair answer as there has been a huge increase in the field of Holocaust studies over the years. But then you turned it into an anti-Israel rant, which is unfortunate, but shows your true colors.


User currently offlineFumanchewd From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (7 years 6 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 2008 times:

I don't have any holocaust guilt. It was a moment in history that was tragic, as were thousands of other moments.

Many anti-zionists and jewish consiparacy theorists always like to blame the "power" of jews on holocaust guilt. Its seems paranoid to me.

As for the Israeli "pity party", well I don't like to use racist and religious stereotypes, the jews have always been a little "worried" and pity seems to be a parallel to that. As Richard Lewis said, "My grandmother was a Jewish juggler: she used to worry about six things at once”.


User currently offlineRJpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (7 years 6 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 1983 times:

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 20):
jews have always been a little "worried"

And for good reason. Here we are in the year 2007 and the President of Iran threatens a new Holocaust against the Jewish people while denying that the first one ever occured...


User currently offlineBlackbird From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (7 years 6 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 1975 times:

I understand it was horrible, and all that. And I understand why they keep bringing it up. But, when you bring it up once or twice, you're doing good. Over and over again, it becomes really irritating and begins to piss people off. It actually starts up anti-semitic sentiment.

And there are some people who will unethically use a tragedy to elicit pity, and use people's sadness and sorrow of such a tragedy to exploit for gain. Israel is a country with a horrific human rights record. However they have managed to intimidate most critics from saying it by labling them anti-semitic, accusing them of being arab sympathizers, or even likening them to Nazi's. The truth is basically this; The Israeli's have an appalling human rights record, having engaged in genocidal acts, and has engaged in land grabs, taking territory it was not entitled to, and routinely ignoring the UN and International law. They deny their atrocities, and only insist on blaming Palestinians and Arabs for the problems in the middle east.

Likewise the Arabs and the Palestinians have engaged in atrocities of their own, which are quite voluminous I might add, and will only instead blame the Israeli's for all the problems in the middle east, denying the admission of any of their misdeeds. As in most conflicts, as mankind has learned through its collective experience -- it takes two to tango; they have both done their share of misdeeds, many of them truly heinous, and yet neither side will ever admit them; and instead of doing anything productive, simply spend their time shifting blame one way or another.


Andrea Kent


User currently offlineFumanchewd From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (7 years 6 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 1958 times:

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 22):
Blackbird From United States, joined Oct 1999, 685 posts, RR: 3

The problem that I have with that belief is that it seems to be looking in the past. I understand that you are saying that jews still use the holocaust as a flag for their purpose. I think that they do at times, but to say that it gets them alot nowadays is invalid.

So let me make an assumption. If the holocaust is a reason for other people's acceptance of Israel or Zionism, is it also a reason for your contempt? In other words, you seem to be very angry over the holocaust connection and I think that this is typical of people who are considering the legitimacy of Israel all together. Many experts believe that that was the reason behind Iran's recent "holocaust convention" where they were trying to make the holocaust void. Iran is attempting to severe all connections between this "guilt" and Zionism.

But Iran doesn't realize that this is not the reason for Israel's existance anymore. Jews are in Israel and many accept the legitimacy of them having a place in Israel, holocaust or not. All atrocities and politics aside, do you?

To me it seems as though this is what you really want to talk about, not the human emotion of guilt.


User currently offlineMolykote From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 1340 posts, RR: 29
Reply 24, posted (7 years 6 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 1949 times:
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I don't feel guilt over the Holocaust but certainly recognize it as a horrible time in human history. I also agree with the general sentiment of others' comments in this thread to this point.

I did however believe this was noteworthy:

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 19):
And you wonder why some people call you an anti-semite?

From your original post, I thought it was an honest academic question that deserves a fair answer as there has been a huge increase in the field of Holocaust studies over the years. But then you turned it into an anti-Israel rant, which is unfortunate, but shows your true colors.

Based upon this comment (and perhaps I misread it), it appears possible that RJpieces holds the exact view that Blackbird believes is inhibiting productive discussion on matters relating to Israel. At the same time, I am capable of realizing why some people cannot make this distinction (i.e. the religious symbol on her national flag and terms such as "Jewish state" that are often used).

My respect or disrespect for Israel as a country has no association with the religious beliefs of any portion of her population. I support the US alliance with Israel for strategic reasons and due to the fact that she is a productive democracy in a portion of the world that I find otherwise uninspiring. Regardless of what opinion her neighbors hold on Israel's legitimacy, I would have thought that by now these neighbors would have realized some of the benefits of democracy and education by observing Israel's example.



Speedtape - The asprin of aviation!
25 Post contains images RJpieces : Blackbird could have started a thread being critical of Israel or posted in any of the tons that are in Non-Av. Instead she chose to attack the memor
26 Fumanchewd : I agree that this was her intention and that she is trying to dance around the premesis of this thread, that she is not a zionist. Fine, but why drag
27 RJpieces : Good question. Blackbird? Most critics of Israel, like Blackbird, constantly ramble about how being critical of Israel will get them reminders of the
28 Blackbird : Well, I didn't say I didn't believe the holocaust happen, I didn't intend to attack the memory of the holocaust. I just find it appalling that some pe
29 HAWK21M : Lets term it Disapointed rather than Guilt.There are many Events in history that evoke similiar feelings.It depends how closely affected or involved a
30 AndesSMF : Hate to say this, but the simple fact of HOW you sign your name essentially indicates to me that your line of thinking on many things is not quite up
31 Baroque : So you will be asking Howard to put the agreement with Japan on hold until it apologises to Indonesia for the 4 million dead Indonesian civilians in
32 KiwiinOz : A trade agreement being dependant on other qualifiers, such as human rights abuse etc is not unique. Consider the imposing of sanctions on Iraq or So
33 Baroque : Only by reason of being declared to be so. As a percentage, possibly the Romany people suffered at least as badly. Leftist Germans probably worse. (C
34 Disruptivehair : You're right about that...to a point. I have been accused of being an anti-Semite, not always by Jewish people, for criticizing anything Israel has d
35 LY744 : And "some" people would call you lots of things, and assume all kinds of shit about you for little to no reason at all. So what? C'est la vie. If I t
36 Post contains images Aaron747 : You probably grew up with my cousins - my uncle is on the board of the JCC there these days I personally believe it's wrong to start threads about th
37 Greasespot : The guilt comes because it was people like you and me, the everyday people, who let it happen and then kept silent when they found out it was happenin
38 Baroque : Did anyone ever mention what happened if you tried to go against the flow in Hitler's Germany? Check out the fate of Admiral Canaris, and he was head
39 Post contains images AGM100 : Are you actually suggesting that the Jewish community / Israel has sat back and done nothing productive ? I hope not. Their have and will be many sim
40 Blackbird : I keep forgetting many of you are not American. And that's not necessarily a bad thing! You're right, the Europeans are far more critical of Israel. I
41 Post contains links AndesSMF : Quick search of the NY times archives up to current shows significant criticism of Israel. http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/i...dterritories/israel
42 UALPHLCS : Agreed. I don't feel any guilt over things I have no control over. Like others have mentioned, Slavery, The Holocaust, these things were not of our m
43 Greasespot : That is why there was guilt. They new it was wrong and did nothing. Are you telling me that if you knew of the holocaust that you would not stand up
44 Post contains images Blackbird : AndesSMF: If you read more carefully you would have noticed there was a link on that page, leading to an article titled "Talking About Israel' written
45 AndesSMF : I did notice that, but your qoute was: And I was pointing out that it was easy to find those types of articles in a mainstream newspaper.
46 Baroque : I wonder if you really know that? What I do know is that if you had you would not have been around to tell us of your brave and futile stand. Almost
47 Post contains images Disruptivehair : It's entirely possible. I went to Hillcrest, a.k.a. "Hebrew High". I agree with that, and that's why Holocaust survivors are keen to talk about it in
48 Flyingbabydoc : Guilt can be felt in general, for we are all human beings and it is our responsibility never to let such a thing happen - with any people, anytime. I
49 ME AVN FAN : - He, I mean the brother of Andrea Kent, in a somehow exaggerated way referred to the not so clear end of several people involved in US-Iraqi relatio
50 Baroque : How is Mordechai Vanunu doing then? Better human rights but hardly perfect. Don't over egg it, that causes problems, just ask Blair and Bush.
51 Rlwynn : There are alot of people that should feel guilty, but I am not one of them. For I was not alive at the time. I was at Buchenwald and can say that had
52 ME AVN FAN : and ? I mean do you mean that average inhabitants had much chance to say whatever about it ? THIS is one of the problems. Many people knew something
53 Disruptivehair : There's evidence to suggest that the US and UK governments knew about them too. They didn't do anything either. What would you suggest we could have
54 Dougloid : You hit the nail right on the head brother.
55 Post contains links Baroque : When they knew and they could, they did. Hence two precision raids on Gestapo establishments, one in France, one in Denmark. The assassination of Hey
56 Disruptivehair : Guess it's true that you learn something new every day; I didn't know that.
57 UALPHLCS : I've read about this too. But from what I gathered the decision was made that the best way to help was to end the war as quickly as possible. Bombing
58 Rlwynn : I thought this thread was about feeling guilty. There was nothing the people in weimar could have really done, but the amount of help they gave in ke
59 Disruptivehair : I think it's fair for the Nazis to take 99.99% of the blame here, though. I used to have a friend whose father was a Nazi soldier during WWII and acc
60 Joni : I don't want to appear as an apologist for Ahmadinejad, but as far as I know he hasn't said either of those things. 1) regarding the "wipe off the ma
61 AeroWesty : Pink triangles.
62 ME AVN FAN : - You pack two statements into one sentence. Most people in that city did "give help" in keeping their city smoothly running, but how many people of
63 Blackbird : To FlyingBabyDoc Yeah! Tell me about it! To who said: I would agree completely on that. That's not the issue. If you periodically remind people once,
64 Fumanchewd : Andrea, I have to wonder who these people are that you say... The main factors currently dictating policy in the Middle East are politics, religion, g
65 Dougloid : So find something else to do. Change the damned channel Andrea, unless what you want to do is piss and moan here. Calling it a 'pity party' tells me
66 Post contains links AeroWesty : I don't know what to say in response. Perhaps I could suggest some reading on the subject: http://www.history.ucsb.edu/faculty/...s/homo/TaraPinkTria
67 A380US : honostly im a jew and im really not scared about that. because well i dont want to get through a war of religion but hes no the first person to want
68 ME AVN FAN : well, of course, also the US-ambassador to Iraq of the late 1980ies, several Saudi VIPs with doubtful contacts and knowledge and similar persons eith
69 AeroWesty : Is the flag of the state of Israel yellow? No. Don't be ridiculous just to be ridiculous.
70 Post contains links ME AVN FAN : A) NO, it is NOT, but I meant the star B) the point simply is that neither the David Star nor the Pink Triangle are prohibited in Germany as they are
71 Disruptivehair : The Nazis made homosexuals wear pink triangles...so yeah, they do have a little something to do with it. I grew up in a Jewish neighborhood with actu
72 AeroWesty : That they are not prohibited was already clarified by Klaus some 60 posts ago, however the pink triangle is still representative of the Nazi era, and
73 ME AVN FAN : - ask older people of London, Coventry and Plymouth about Nazi-Germany. "They" had a little to do with quite many things for sure. You canNOT declare
74 Disruptivehair : I think some of the others made the point better than I did, and that is that the pink triangle...for some...is a Nazi symbol and they find its use o
75 ME AVN FAN : for "some" it may be a Nazi symbol, for most there it for sure was a GAY symbol. Frankly spoken, I do NOT care about either of the two groups. And ev
76 Disruptivehair : Neither has anything you've said.
77 AeroWesty : Good god man, the gay community in Germany during the 1930's didn't all of a sudden wake up one morning and decide to sew pink triangles on their clo
78 ME AVN FAN : the gay community, whenever in a tragic situation then, was of minor importance in comparison to the Jews. AND, a gay does NOT have a Jewish family n
79 KiwiinOz : When do we talk about sodomy?
80 AeroWesty : I will not continue this discussion with you.
81 ME AVN FAN : ok for me, as the topic on here is about the holocaust, and that is basically the persecution and organised mass-murder of Jews in Europe, and in con
82 Fumanchewd : Thank you for proving my point. The only ones who notice this are the ones who are looking to criticize the jews. How does this seriously affect anyo
83 Klaus : It's become a symbol of persecution even after the war and of the resistance against it. It is not a nazi symbol in any sense close or comparable to
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