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Iranian Forces Hold British Navy Sailors  
User currently offlineRichardPrice From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 4623 times:

Iranian forces have captured and are holding 15 British Navy personel after the Royal Navy carried out a routine boarding and search procedure on a ship in the Arabian Gulkf suspected of smuggling cars.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6484279.stm

242 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRichardPrice From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 4616 times:

Update -

Quote:

The Ministry of Defence said: "The group boarding party had completed a successful inspection of a merchant ship when they and their two boats were surrounded and escorted by Iranian vessels into Iranian territorial waters.

This could get ugly, the Iranians had no authority here.


User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11690 posts, RR: 60
Reply 2, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 4607 times:

Well done Iran, just when you should be seeking to ease tensions between yourselves and the West. Well I hope that it passes off peacefully, it they were indeed in Iraqi waters then the Iranians had no authority to do what they did, however time will tell as the BBC is a very biased news source.


Dan Smile



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlineDisruptivehair From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2007, 598 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 4602 times:

Oh yikes...more trouble with the Iranians.

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 2):
however time will tell as the BBC is a very biased news source.

I've noticed this too but usually it's in regards to their coverage of stories in the USA. I haven't detected a pro- or anti-Iranian bias but to be fair I haven't been looking for one either.


User currently offlineDougloid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 4577 times:

We've been telling everyone for years who'll listen that they're a bunch of loose cannons, ever since they took our embassy (still not returned) and our people. I am quite sure that this will bring out Il Duce's (oops I meant Ahmaneedashavebad) apologists. Hell, I'm sure they'll blame this on the Jews and the Americans too.

The appropriate response would be to go into their embassy, select fifteen people at random and clap them in irons.


User currently offlineDisruptivehair From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2007, 598 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 4545 times:

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 4):
We've been telling everyone for years who'll listen that they're a bunch of loose cannons, ever since they took our embassy (still not returned) and our people. I am quite sure that this will bring out Il Duce's (oops I meant Ahmaneedashavebad) apologists. Hell, I'm sure they'll blame this on the Jews and the Americans too.

I think the Iranians were mad at us in 1979 both for what we and the British did to them in the 1950s, and for allowing the Shah into the United States for medical treatment. I'm not making excuses for them; I'm just sharing what I remember.

Quote:

The appropriate response would be to go into their embassy, select fifteen people at random and clap them in irons.

That would make us worse than them.


User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11690 posts, RR: 60
Reply 6, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 4540 times:

Quoting Disruptivehair (Reply 3):
I've noticed this too but usually it's in regards to their coverage of stories in the USA. I haven't detected a pro- or anti-Iranian bias but to be fair I haven't been looking for one either.

I think it's more that they are highly bias towards the government, ala "Blair Broadcasting Centre".

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 4):
The appropriate response would be to go into their embassy, select fifteen people at random and clap them in irons

Then you would be as bad as they are; it would only serve to escalate matters and give them the justification they need for holding our own men in-definately.


Dan Smile



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlineDisruptivehair From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2007, 598 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 4522 times:

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 6):
I think it's more that they are highly bias towards the government, ala "Blair Broadcasting Centre".

It seemed like the Beeb was really toeing the line back when the David Kelly thing went down, but I haven't detected any special treatment lately.


User currently offlineRichardPrice From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 4510 times:

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 6):

I think it's more that they are highly bias towards the government, ala "Blair Broadcasting Centre".

Actually if you watch the BBCs Polticial Correspondant Nick Robinsons pieces, he is most definitely against the Blair government - its blatant and obvious in 90% of his broadcasts.


User currently offlinePyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 4039 posts, RR: 28
Reply 9, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 4510 times:

Quoting RichardPrice (Thread starter):
routine boarding and search procedure on a ship

I know that for british sailors boarding ships is a routine (goes all the way back to Francis Drake and pals  stirthepot  ) but what were they doing there in the first place? Don't they control the country, couldn't they have checked it once it arrived on port / before it left?



Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11690 posts, RR: 60
Reply 10, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 4487 times:

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 8):
Actually if you watch the BBCs Polticial Correspondant Nick Robinsons pieces, he is most definitely against the Blair government - its blatant and obvious in 90% of his broadcasts.

To be fair, I am stereotyping - I gave up watching the BBC a year ago because I got fed up with their take on the news - so since then I have only been going on the musings of family and friends who still watch it. Actually, there is a lot to be said for not having a TV anymore!  silly 


Dan Smile



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlineDisruptivehair From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2007, 598 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 4478 times:

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 10):
To be fair, I am stereotyping - I gave up watching the BBC a year ago because I got fed up with their take on the news - so since then I have only been going on the musings of family and friends who still watch it. Actually, there is a lot to be said for not having a TV anymore!

Do they still pester you for your license fees, or do you not live in the UK anymore?


User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 4463 times:

probably in 2017 unconfirmed sources will leak they were actually in Iranian waters & much more was going on at the time..

User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11690 posts, RR: 60
Reply 13, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 4460 times:

Quoting Disruptivehair (Reply 11):
Do they still pester you for your license fees, or do you not live in the UK anymore?

I still live in the UK, and yes they do! I have sent them three letters back, stating that I don't have a TV and therefore don't really want to pay a hundred and something quid for a license - but they just don't seem to think that people can function without a haunted fish tank to stare at. I have a radio, a computer, and an internet connection; that's all I need Big grin


Dan Smile



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 14, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 4442 times:

english.aljazeera and Khaleej Times and Le Liberation all three simply quote "UK Ministry of Defence officials" while IRNA the Iranian News Agency does NOT yet have anything.

User currently offlineDisruptivehair From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2007, 598 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 4430 times:

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 13):
I still live in the UK, and yes they do! I have sent them three letters back, stating that I don't have a TV and therefore don't really want to pay a hundred and something quid for a license - but they just don't seem to think that people can function without a haunted fish tank to stare at. I have a radio, a computer, and an internet connection; that's all I need

I thought as much; we know a couple who don't have a TV and the license fee people have been chasing them for about a decade; they've never left them alone.  banghead  I can't be all high and mighty tho; we have a big telly WITH Sky. Ace!  bigthumbsup 


User currently offlineDougloid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 4414 times:

Quoting Disruptivehair (Reply 5):
That would make us worse than them.



Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 6):
Then you would be as bad as they are; it would only serve to escalate matters and give them the justification they need for holding our own men in-definately.

How so? Do you seriously think that pussyfooting around the Iranians after they've gone and kidnaped your sailors by force of arms is doing them any justice? All you'd be doing is emboldening the bastards.

Real estate on the moral high ground can get mighty expensive.

It's also a good way to jack the price of oil if you think you're not getting paid enough.

http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2007/03/23/ap3545801.html

[Edited 2007-03-23 16:33:54]

User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 17, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 4360 times:

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 16):
pussyfooting around the Iranians

well, it possibly just is some gross misunderstanding, to be settled within a few hours  scratchchin 
and not a reason to rush decisions


User currently offlineDisruptivehair From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2007, 598 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 4354 times:

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 17):
well, it possibly just is some gross misunderstanding, to be settled within a few hours
and not a reason to rush decisions

I dunno...the Iranians seem to like saving face and I don't think they'll just say "Oh, my bad" and let them go.


User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 19, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 4340 times:

Quoting Disruptivehair (Reply 18):
seem to like saving face and I don't think they'll just say "Oh, my bad" and let them go.

BOTH possibly will "find out" that there were faulty maps, causing a misunderstanding. For instance if at least one of the maps has the "stamp" "printed in the USA" on it, the matter will be clear and settled  duck 


User currently offlineCedars747 From Norway, joined Dec 2005, 2721 posts, RR: 19
Reply 20, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 4339 times:

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 17):
well, it possibly just is some gross misunderstanding, to be settled within a few hours
and not a reason to rush decisions

You made me remember the Iran hostage crisis when Carter approved an ill-fated secret rescue mission, Operation Eagle Claw. On the night of April 24, 1980, as the first part of the operation, a number of C-130 transport airplanes met up with eight RH-53 helicopters at an airstrip in the Great Salt Desert of Eastern Iran, near Tabas. Two helicopters broke down in a sandstorm and a third one was damaged on landing. The mission was aborted, but as the aircraft took off again one helicopter clipped a C-130 and crashed, killing eight U.S. servicemen and injuring several more. In Iran, Khomeini's prestige skyrocketed as he credited divine intervention on behalf of Islam for the mission's failure


Alex!!!



Tengo una pasion por la aviacion !لدي شغف للطيران !I have a passion for aviation !
User currently offlineHalls120 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 4313 times:

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 9):
I know that for british sailors boarding ships is a routine (goes all the way back to Francis Drake and pals ) but what were they doing there in the first place? Don't they control the country, couldn't they have checked it once it arrived on port / before it left?

Under long settled international law, warships of one country can board ships of another country when those ships are in the territorial waters of a coastal state (in this case, Iraq), and the warship has been granted permission by coastal state (Iraq) to conduct the boarding.

Even if it was a case of disputed waters - which I doubt the British would have been so careless as to conduct the boarding in those waters - Iran's response was wholly outside of the norms and practice of international law.

If they have a beef with the UK boarding ships in waters they claim are their waters, the correct response would have been to file a diplomatic protest, or take the case to ITLOS. Forcibly detaining the British sailors is just more evidence of the lawless nature of the current Iranian government.


User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13241 posts, RR: 77
Reply 22, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 4255 times:

Could get nasty, then again, just maybe the Iranians striking an attitude.
If they ARE supporting insurgents in Iraq, they'll not want this to be uncovered by a search of a vessel either.

PlymSpotter, please tell us how the report linked here is biased?
And which way? You do know that the BBC got equally attacked in the 2003 Iraq war by the extreme factions on BOTH the pro and anti war opinions?
Or maybe you don't, Blair Broadcasting Centre indeed, (translation - I've no idea what I'm on about, no context or history to back up what I'm saying, in fact I see myself as so above the rest, I KNOW I'm being deliberatly lied to by some vast government conspiracy, though I've no proof of this at all).


User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 23, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 4247 times:

Quoting GDB (Reply 22):
You do know that the BBC got equally attacked in the 2003 Iraq war by the extreme factions on BOTH the pro and anti war opinions?

It always does. Successive governments always complain they are being biased against, successive oppositions do the same. Americans claim it's anti-American, most of the rest of the world complains that it's too pro-American.

As for the whole David Kelly thing, bearing in mind that subsequent events bore out that the BBC was in fact entirely correct, beating them with that stick is pretty pointless.

No, it's not perfect, far from it. But it's the only broadcasting organisation that tries to be.



She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlineDc863 From Denmark, joined Jun 1999, 1558 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 4246 times:

I would demand an immediate unconditional release of the marines. As for the Rev Guards we captured well that's a different story and they won't be released.
The Royal Marines were searching a ship something they were internationally mandated to do.
The Rev Guards captured in Iraq were their to incite, and spread violence.


25 GDB : Indeed Banco, the way that Labour (old Labour, moderate socalist) PM Harold Wilson raged about the BBC, and how right wing Tory PM Margaret Thatcher d
26 Post contains images PlymSpotter : I did not specify that this exact report was bias, I was referring to it in general and more as the organisation used to be. The BBC may be autonomou
27 CaptOveur : They haven't begun to cause trouble. I doubt that. I have little doubt the Iranians are looking for a fight. They want the US and the allies to invad
28 MD11Engineer : Remember the German tourist, who strayed into Iranian waters during a fishing trip in the Gulf last year? He just got released a few weeks ago after
29 GDB : PymSpotter, just because the BBC has had links to government, does not mean it has towed any kind of line, as we know from the examples of the two ex
30 Post contains images Fumanchewd : Yeah! A post with conspiracy speculations with no ties to known facts! Or for that matter, could it be that Iran was trying to protect arms being shi
31 TheCol : Doubtful. Iran has the right to disclose any facts pertaining to an alleged illegal operation in their territory. At this point and time, Iran isn't
32 Bongodog1964 : What a sorry state we are now in. 15 sailors are captured by Iranians, whilst a 4500 ton frigate bristling with armament and its own armed helicopter
33 Halls120 : I wouldn't be so quick to condemn. Unless the Rules of Engagement allowed him to take the necessary action to resist, and he failed to do so, the fau
34 GDB : sure the Frigate and it's Lynx helicopters could charge in-though it's notable that the local US Navy commander has commented that the RN did the righ
35 Blackbird : Sounds like a Gulf of Tonkin pretext.... Andrea Kent
36 Fumanchewd : The Gulf Of Tonkin was purposely reported as attacks on US ships when the actual attack was minimal or even non-existent. On the contrary, the Britis
37 ME AVN FAN : - Something like this is to be feared. But let's hope for a swifter way-out of this situation. - Everything which has become public up to now came fr
38 Dc863 : Never underestimate the lunacy of the left. Remember they're the one's who came up with the whole 9/11 tinfoil hat theory.
39 Post contains links Fumanchewd : With all due respect, that is incorrect. Iranian officials told a local journalist that the men were being held for violating Iranian territorial wat
40 Bongodog1964 : Its unlikely that the frigate was some distance away, as the rigid raider type craft are purely used for boarding parties working from the mother shi
41 GDB : Buy some distance, I mean a mile or several, not over the horizon. The ship could, had it known for sure what was happening, engaged with it's 4.5 inc
42 Post contains links ME AVN FAN : no longer up-to-date. It was based on my last check-up on various WEBsites. The report under http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exer...DD-F79A-4CF0-8524
43 Post contains links ME AVN FAN : and here something interesting : ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
44 Blackbird : Unfortunately this could be an excuse that would allow the US to go to war with Iran. If Bush could not manage to get a war, on this avenue, I think B
45 Fumanchewd : Smart man!
46 Halls120 : This isn't anything like the GOT. Teheran's actions are indefensible under international law.
47 MDorBust : I would suspect that they are using maps or boundaries establish by the UN since that's whose mandate they are operting under in those waters.
48 Post contains images Fumanchewd : First the British would have to go to war and that's not going to happen. Yes, this makes perfect sense! They had a squad of Navy Seals inflitrate th
49 AndesSMF : To those who believe in 9/11 conspiracies, your explanation of what 'could' have happened seems easier to do in the first place.
50 Post contains links Halls120 : The UN doesn't "mandate" maritime boundaries. And Iran has asserted a number of excessive maritime claims which the US( and presumably the UK) do not
51 Pyrex : Which country hasn't? (Besides Switzerland, obviously) This (territorial disputes) is the sort of thing that happens all the time, pissing contests i
52 Halls120 : In 1985, Portugal claimed a system of straight baselines along the mainland coast and around the Azores. The United States, in a 1986 diplomatic note
53 Gkirk : Get the Tornado's, Eurofighters and Harriers loaded just in case. Iran just screwed up, big time.
54 MDorBust : The mandate I mentioned is a directive of the UN security council for the protection of Iraqi maritime oil assets in the region. One would hope that
55 Halls120 : Understand, but just because the UN might dictate a given operational area doesn't override the rules of international law that establish maritime bo
56 MDorBust : The comment was just in response to MAFs statement that the operation was likely using outdated British maps to establish boundries. Quick recap: If
57 Halls120 : Sorry, but any navigator worth his or her salt is never going to rely on a UN operational designation as to what are international waters and what ar
58 TheCol : So are your denying that Iran actually took the Brits? Or are you saying that the Brits deliberately entered into Iranian territory?
59 FlyDeltaJets87 : So um yea, this is right up there with the looniest things I've read on airliners.net, myspace, et al. Won't be surprised if it comes to this. I mean
60 Cedars747 : To the contrary ,it seems that the chaotic internal problems Israel is experiencing after the war encourage Iran to act like that Alex!!!
61 Keesje : TEHRAN (Reuters) - Iran's Foreign Ministry condemned what called the illegal entry of British naval personnel into Iranian waters as a "suspicious act
62 Rlwynn : What, like 911? What a loon.
63 Banco : The idea that the sailors and marines should have resisted is insane. They were completely outgunned and outnumbered, and any act of resistance would
64 Fumanchewd : You don't know that and are making, as usual, unsubsantiated implications.
65 Fumanchewd : And what country wouldn't do that? As for suggesting that the British government has been quiet, you are right, but only in the realm of demands. Ira
66 Beaucaire : Fact is that the Chatt al Arab has no clearly defind borders between Iraq and Iran. Iraq claims this,Iran says no-it's our's - so in this context it i
67 Post contains images ME AVN FAN : Maybe. Far worse is that they are simply idiotic ! - - and WHO delivered the maps ? Fairly easy. The international community, Europe, and the Arab Le
68 Post contains links Beaucaire : ...the latest update.. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...?xml=/news/2007/03/24/wiran524.xml
69 ME AVN FAN : - that THIS is a bad and dangerous development is fairly obvious. But what is the idea of those in charge in Tehran ?
70 Beaucaire : Its a show of Iranian sovereignty and a clear signal that they do not accept the Schatt al Arab borders as defined by the British. Far from excusing t
71 Post contains images Checkraiser : I would imagine they're trying to provoke a war with the West. Indeed.
72 ME AVN FAN : - a play with the fire in every way. If we start to question the hundreds of borderlines drawn by Britain and France unilaterally and bilaterally (Om
73 Post contains links and images Jacobin777 : Dougloid, while I respect your knowledge on aviation and MD-planes (certainly the latter), I think you should get some facts first before you go off
74 David L : Are you saying the Iraqi government considers the patrols illegal? That's not just a case of apples and oranges, it's more like a case of apples and
75 Beaucaire : The scale of relationship between Belgium and France has nothing to do with the strained relations betwwen the Iran and some western countries.France
76 Dougloid : With all due respect to you too, this is an incident of international piracy and ought to be treated as such. It's quite simple. Iran's decided they'
77 Post contains images Halls120 : There is no justification for the Iranian response to this so called incursion.
78 ME AVN FAN : no, it is not. As it in the Iranian perspective is a matter of violation of national borders committed by the Royal Navy. - Here again, I suppose you
79 Dougloid : Withg all due respect sir, I do not think you are well informed or know what the Iranian perspective is. As I stated the appropriate response was and
80 Post contains images ME AVN FAN : A completely exotic idea ! such simple things are impossible in the Middle East !! - the response to a border incursion in that world region is to ca
81 GDB : Had it been HMS Cornwall intercepting an Iranian Navy vessel straying into Iraqi waters, by design or accident, they would have hailed it, pointing ou
82 CasInterest : This is a total piss contest by the Iranians, and proves their inferiority in world affairs. They are going to nitpick something as close to their ter
83 Disruptivehair : Hahahaha....zing! I dunno....5-6 years ago I'd have agreed with you but I think the BBC has let its standards slip, particularly on their morning new
84 Fumanchewd : A. I never said that it wasn't in Iranian waters, just pointed out to all that there was no evidence at the time. Many on here were letting politics
85 Post contains links Pyrex : But then again, it wouldn't be the first time the British Marines invaded a country by mistake... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1827554.stm To be
86 Post contains images Halls120 : Neither the US or the UK would have responded to an incursion by the warship of another nation into its national waters by capturing the individuals
87 L-188 : The timing of the alleged "incursion" is too convient. I suspect this incident was created by the Iranians in order to deflect internal news away from
88 Post contains links Beaucaire : To my recollection Iranians recently never attacked any Americans or British other than taking some of them hostage -which led to the unhappy events
89 L-188 : Yes...the Iranians are stuck in a 16th century mindset that is completely incompatible with the modern world. Bull, Iran has the bad habit of using f
90 Post contains images Dougloid : Isn't this entire site about speculation? You have your view, I've got mine. MAF, I like you personally and I know we can always correspond on matter
91 Post contains images Dougloid : For which we paid compensation to the families. We're still waiting to get paid for our embassy.
92 Banco : The thing which I find rather troubling is the immediate reaction of some people here. You have British naval personnel basically being kidnapped, and
93 Post contains images Boeing4ever : You sir, have spoken an immense truth. Spot on! B4e-Forever New Frontiers
94 Post contains images Cedars747 : Most people in power in the Middle East are made in the USA ! Alex!!!
95 Post contains images Halls120 : I'll add a to the above.
96 TheCol : Doubtful. I think we have to look at this from Iran's opportunistic point of view. I think this whole situation goes beyond "border disputes". Exactl
97 Cedars747 : You can discount it from the money stolen from the Iraqi oil or the Shah money ! Alex!!![Edited 2007-03-25 00:00:49]
98 Dougloid : WTF are you talking about? I assume you are in possession of specific facts that would prove what you're saying? Or are you as full of crap as the re
99 Dougloid : Alex!!! What's up with you today!!! Maybe you'd like to tell that to Ahmadinejad!!! or the leaders of the Gulf States!!! or the ruling family of Saud
100 MaidensGator : He has no idea.... Example:
101 Post contains images Cedars747 : Yes sure ! Farah Diba is my mom Alex!!!
102 Pyrex : If I was a betting man, my bet would be this: an over-zealous Iranian naval officer taking advantage of a border violation (whether real or imagined,
103 Cedars747 : Look my dear Dougloid,what I think is that we deffinitly belong to two different worlds.What I know from my experience in the Middle East is that the
104 Post contains images Fumanchewd : Which countries? Iraq, Afghanistan, and which others????? This is most likely the case, I just hope they don't hold onto the sailors for a long time
105 Fumanchewd : ...according to the Iranians. But then again there is a dispute on whose waters are whose. This proves nothing. As usual, you selectively quote to ar
106 Post contains links Fumanchewd : Just read on yahoo... http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070325/...;_ylt=AiIoesPsvoNVKTDvGn9.wVXMWM0F Iranian hard-liners have already called for the 15 Bri
107 Dc863 : I seriously hope Britain tells the Iranian gov't to go to hell before allowing a repeat of that utter nonsense.
108 Halcyon : And they're being put on trial for espionage. What utter BS! A country like that and people think that they should have nukes. Bloody looney-bins!
109 Baroque : True (good grief, agreement, Halls!!). The Shatt al Arab waterway is a disputed zone and has been for a while. What attempts have been made since 200
110 Fumanchewd : How are British confessions coerced by the Iranian governement relevant to Islamic confessions coerced by the US government? And how do you suppose t
111 Banco : The rapid movement of the servicemen to Tehran has heightened suspicions that this was planned from the start, certainly. Three years ago, relations
112 Post contains links Banco : Here's the Q & A he did: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6491581.stm For those with a decent memory, then Commander Alan West was the captain of HMS Ar
113 ME AVN FAN : sorry, but you are victim to a COMPLETE misunderstanding. Those British drawn borders I referred to in the meantime have been accepted and taken over
114 Banco : The Q & A with Admiral West points out that the standard advice to personnel in such a situation is for them to admit anything they are told to if it
115 Fumanchewd : This seems to be something that has been orchestrated from Tehran. I think the incident in 2004, one can't be sure of it, but I think that was someth
116 Banco : Admiralty charts were freely given to the world. They formed the basis of all navigation for all sailors prior to the invention of GPS. Don't give th
117 Checkraiser : The whole issue of who considers where the border is is really a moot point. Even if we give Iran the benefit of the doubt they are wrong to respond t
118 Post contains images Cedars747 : Thanks ME AVN FAN.You are a good source of info about almost everything Alex!!!
119 Post contains images Fumanchewd : I agree! Very knowledgeable! Unfortunately, because of my timidity and sometimes lunacy, I always want to clober him or hug him!
120 Baroque : I am not sure what is left after deletions. However: 1. I don't like what the Iranians are probably doing to the RN personnel as we write. 2. It is ju
121 Beaucaire : The situation could be de-fused quite rapidly,would the US release the captured Hassan Abbasi,taken out of the Iranian Consulate (?) in Irbil with fou
122 ME AVN FAN : Hitler of course AFTER 1933 - But they in case of doubt DO reflect the government policy. British charts for decades have shown a good part of the Ru
123 HAWK21M : Its difficult to point out Terrorital waters eaisly. Personally I feel it could be the Iranians are trying pressure tactics. regds MEL
124 ME AVN FAN : THIS in fact is what we all are waiting to see. What the Iranians are to make out of it. Those in charge in London apparently are acting most careful
125 QR332 : Well... this is interesting. But what did everybody expect? The West has been up Iran's ass for God knows how long now, so it is only natural that Ira
126 Baroque : According to one BBC map, there are two nearby oil platforms, presumably Iraqi, and presumably there is some agreement as to where they are!!
127 Post contains links and images ME AVN FAN : I suppose that you refer to this : - and this here is from the CIA textbook : Iraq's lack of a maritime boundary with Iran prompts jurisdiction dispu
128 Baroque : Yes, that was the map. I tried finding the platforms on Google, but I began to suspect that the Google images of that area are a long way out of date
129 GDB : The more details that leak out, the more this looks orchestrated. HMS Cornwall, along with US and RAN ships, have been patrolling this area enforcing
130 11Bravo : That would be a very serious mistake. The immediate release of the RN personnel should be a pre-condition to any future discussions or agreements. Th
131 QR332 : Please spare me! The West plays all sorts of similar games, do I need to remind you of the "interrogations" the CIA give where they torture the detai
132 Dc863 : Bullsh*t. Iran has murdered , taken hostages, threatened states, sown violence since 1979. If anything it is WE that now hold plenty against the mull
133 MDorBust : WTF? Way to edit a quote to change it's meaning.
134 11Bravo : What a load of nonsense. The UK does not capture ships on the high seas and imprison the crews. To suggest that "The West plays all sorts of similar
135 Post contains links Beaucaire : The US have started an illegitimate war in Iraq based on wrong intelligence and statements. So far that has caused the death of more than 60,000 peop
136 Dougloid : Chances are it'll be dropped in your neighborhood. You ought to be concerned if the mullahs get the bomb. Simply stated, it's a real problem, and it'
137 Dougloid : That seems to be at odds to your tagline about the greatest threat to knowledge being the illusion of knowledge. All of what you say may or may not b
138 Dc863 : Iranian terrorism has nothing to do with the Iraq conflict. Iran has stepped over the line so many times since 1979 and sooner or later it will pay t
139 Post contains images Halls120 : The only gross misunderstanding here is yours. Have you ever been a navigator on a warship? I have. On my ship we had several British Admiralty chart
140 ME AVN FAN : I don't know what you are wondering about - - you still misunderstand ! I use British maps in private and in the office and have done so for decades.
141 Halls120 : Sailors don't use maps. They use charts. Every navigation chart I've ever seen has the delineation between the territorial sea and high seas clearly
142 ME AVN FAN : - just a minor detail - - maybe, and what ? - whether it gives them whatever rights or not was NOT what I referred to. I referred to their basic posi
143 Halls120 : A minor detail to people who don't understand how ships are operated. Meaning that I'm pretty sure the RN sailors knew where they were, and had the r
144 Dougloid : Regardless of your position on these events, it promises, like a newly discovered case of the shingles, to get worse before it gets better.
145 ME AVN FAN : how ships are operated is irrelevant in this case, totally irrelevant - Sure they certainly had that opinion the question rather is what they WILL BE
146 ME AVN FAN : it looks not very good, but I still hope that the British diplomacy will find a way out of the matter
147 Halls120 : Really? In your post #19, you suggested that the RN was using "faulty" maps, so how the ship was being operated in this case is very relevant. So tel
148 ME AVN FAN : NO ! absolutely NOT ! to suggest that the Royal Navy used faulty maps would NEVER come to my mind - - I did NOT suggest that either side used faulty
149 Halls120 : Really? Then how do you explain your post # 43? And the Iranian position is simply wrong.
150 ME AVN FAN : - to say it again, Britain and France in the colonial age drew the boundaries of much of Africa and Asia. Many of those boundaries lead to trouble si
151 Halls120 : Even if Iran has a legitimate gripe as to where their borders were drawn by western imperialists, the charts used by the RN reflect the current state
152 ME AVN FAN : - exactly THIS has been what I mentioned before in post 72 : - - a play with the fire in every way. If we start to question the hundreds of borderlin
153 TheCol : So are you saying their actions were justified? What do you think the Brits should do?
154 Post contains images BMIFlyer : God Damn! I get home from a great vacation and this is what I hear on the radio? 15 of my fellow countrymen held hostage by the Iranians? Well done Ir
155 ME AVN FAN : well, your PrimeMinister tries it with Theodore Roosevelt, to speak softly (but firmly) and carrying a big stick, ..... and tries NOT to rush things.
156 Post contains links Dougloid : On further study, the answer to this question is by no means as clear cut as it could be, although Iran's response was, as usual, proof positive that
157 HAWK21M : wern't there many Disputes over border issues still pending between Iran & Iraq. regds MEL
158 Post contains links Sprout5199 : Did you forget the USS Samuel B. Roberts FFG-58? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Samuel_B._Roberts_%28FFG-58%29 Or the Iran Ajr? http://en.wikipedia
159 Post contains links Dougloid : Maybe so, but the exact boundary is not at all clear, particularly because we do not know when, if ever, the thalweg of the Shatt al Arab was ever su
160 ME AVN FAN : thanks for the nice link. Very nice photos, also those from Iran, Turkey and Bulgaria
161 Baroque : Sure are disputes. However, the platforms are significant as the folk that built them will definitely know where they are!!! AND more importantly, th
162 QR332 : Did you intentionally ignore the short bit of history I wrote out for you? The most the Iranians have done to the Americans is the embassy incident,
163 Halls120 : You are completely wrong on this point. The Royal Navy and USN don't react in this manner to simple boundary line incursions. If it was our standard
164 Sprout5199 : And did you read my post about the Roberts? and what about the Iran Ajr? And the battles with the gun boats? And a govt letting students take over an
165 Cedars747 : Couldn't agree more .By the way Iran is not the only case ! Alex!!!
166 Post contains images ME AVN FAN : I suppose you mean THIS incident : ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Iran Air Flight 655 (IR655) was a c
167 Post contains links Sprout5199 : No, I mean this incident: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Ajr I was in the gulf on board the USS Flatley(FFG-21) when it was captured and sunk while
168 HAWK21M : Are there any Statements released today. regds MEL
169 Oli80 : Well according the UK intelligence the Iranian ships were in Iraqi waters and were not fired upon and not escorted to Iraqi ports or anything for tha
170 Beaucaire : It would be sheer madnes to try to rescue those sailors out of Revolutionary- guard custody should they be in Tehran. Even if intelligence finds ou th
171 Sprout5199 : I agree. Now is the time for talking. If it takes the UK to say "our bad" to get them released then they should do it BUT nothing more. Iran will not
172 Dougloid : I don't recall ever saying anything about the Iranian situation or past history other than we haven't been paid for our embassy yet. Then you went bo
173 TheCol : Alex, do you have anything to say at all about this issue? Or are you going to troll around, as usual, and recite events in history, that you've prev
174 Vertigo : My suspicion is that this incident is an unfortunate combination of quarreling factions, posturing and face saving in the Iranian government. However,
175 Rlwynn : You have made this point a number of times in this thread. I ask if can name any country that existed with borders in the Sahara or the Arabian world
176 Vertigo : Discussing the unfortunate history of Western involvement in this part of the globe is completely pointless! Those who care about a positive outcome f
177 Post contains links ME AVN FAN : Maybe. BUT you mentioned IRAN AIR, and the IRAN AIR CREW did NOT make a mistake and was NOT wrong. THIS is the point I mentioned. - - well, THIS soun
178 Oli80 : Apologies, it appears I was thinking about Camp Snoopy.
179 Post contains links Banco : Latest update. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6498611.stm I wonder what he does mean by "different phase"? Presumably it would involve releasing eviden
180 Sprout5199 : I did not mention Iran Air, I mentioned IRAN A-J-R . The ship that was laying mines in international waters in the Persian Gulf in 1987. One of which
181 Cedars747 : My dear TheCol ! off course I have many things to say because simply I am half Western and half Eastern,and I know the real truth about many events b
182 Post contains images ME AVN FAN : ooooops ! sorry, THAT in fact is a difference most military forces in the world laying mines are doing so outside their own territories, so that they
183 Post contains images Baroque : You might want to rewrite that a bit, as posted, the USS Flatley was captured and sunk while laying mines in Int waters. ??That might not be what you
184 Post contains links and images Sprout5199 : Sarcasm Actually, most navies would mine the harbors of the enemy, not shipping routes as this is a waste of time and efforts.Plus you start to invol
185 Sprout5199 : DAMN, MY mistake. So much for English as my only language. Miss a comma and look what happens. As a proud crewmember of the Flatley, I want to revise
186 Post contains images BMIFlyer : Ur kidding me right? Iran - Peace loving?? Lee
187 GDB : The problem that the government face, is it that the Waffen SS....opps, Red Guards, opps again, I mean Revolutionary Guards, are somewhat a law unto t
188 Vertigo : My use of the word unfortunate was merely an acknowledgment of the predominately detrimental influence my country and others have had on western Asia
189 QR332 : Dealing with the Soviets and the Iranians is two very different things, I think we all know how fragile the situation was during the Cold War, and th
190 Post contains images L410Turbolet : ... along with the rest of the Middle East, right?
191 Post contains links Cedars747 : Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 190): ... along with the rest of the Middle East, right? EXACTLYand what a coincidence that the main responsible for the M
192 Post contains images ME AVN FAN : it indeed does not give a shadow of a haze, and the Iranians are not exactly helpful towards an "elegant" resolution of the matter. I just hope that
193 ME AVN FAN : - not so much of a coincidence was that a commander of that German U.N. fleet off the Lebanese coastline on Sunday explained to a journalist of a Swi
194 Sprout5199 : Is what the US did in the 50's wrong? I don't know, I wasn't around then. BUT if you are going to think that way, why does Israel have relations with
195 Halls120 : No, you are wrong. The overarching principle is the same, whether we are talking about the soviets or the Iranians. It is the law of the sea, one of
196 ME AVN FAN : attention please. Let's NOT generalize ! > what the USA + the U.K. did in IraN indeed WAS wrong > what President Eisenhower did in the Suez-Crisis of
197 Post contains images Baroque : I hoped that was what you meant! We probably do have a way of knowing, but not until the Brits tell us exactly where they were.[Edited 2007-03-27 19:
198 Post contains images ME AVN FAN : "oldest" ? what do you mean by that ? exactly this is just another shallow. I do NOT want to get into details, but the history of "shipping" in the M
199 Halls120 : I am not saying that the sea was civilized long before the land. What I'm saying is that when compared to other branches of modern international law,
200 Post contains links Sprout5199 : Sorry for the "rant". When someone says things are done for revenge, but the same country now wants "peaceful" nuclear power, I have to say something
201 GDB : Whilst what the US and UK did in the 50's was very wrong, some need to get a grip here. What were the Allies in WW2, enjoy and have done so for 60 yea
202 DL021 : OK...so does anyone think Iran is justified here? I'm not talking about ancient history, I'm talking right now. If not, then what it is the proper res
203 Dougloid : IAgain and again you characterize me based on your own preconceived notions. All that was said was, I repeat, that the embassy has not yet been paid
204 TheCol : Which brings me back to this: Sure we do! If Iran's claims are true, that they have physical evidence to support "the crime", then they should have n
205 Cedars747 : A good response to you would be the signature of my dear friend RootsAir Braulio A man without the knowledge of his past history,culture and origins
206 Post contains images ME AVN FAN : well, ........................................... well, .................................... I was on visit in London and Dublin in 1971 and then the
207 Baroque : No reading The Holy Qu'ran is not neglected, although you will find plenty of (Islamic) clerics who do worry about the emphasis on one book to the ex
208 FlyingColours : Can somone please tell me why we are all sat back and talking to Iran here? Just tell them to hand our men & women back to us safley or we will come i
209 Baroque : And which order would that be FC? Go where, do what? And oh by the way avoid about 65 million hostiles.
210 FlyingColours : Oh come on, as soon as we know exactly where they are being held they would do thier usual and come in through the windows, wether they are dropped r
211 Post contains images ME AVN FAN : - There in such a case are two possibilities. A) the SAS unit sent out will be caught / killed by the Iranian armed forces B) the SAS unit sent out w
212 Banco : Quite. They're high quality soldiers, not superheroes. Still, it now seems the British government are becoming seriously concerned, describing the si
213 ME AVN FAN : - I suppose Tehran does NOT leave any choice than to do this. And your government has to make it clear that the soldiers were on the correct side by
214 Post contains links Oli80 : Well, this article from the BBC would seem to confirm that Iran has either got their coordinates wrong, are not recognising international borders or
215 ME AVN FAN : They do NOT recognize "international borders" just as Turkey which already in Saddam's time "moved" the border south by some kilometers, or Libya whi
216 Banco : I'm not. Because if they do, it means that they've got precisely nowhere with negotiations for their release, and are changing from a conciliatory ap
217 Oli80 : What do you hope to gain by looking at the photos?
218 Post contains links Banco : Interesting, if somewhat gloomy article. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6501459.stm
219 QR332 : You think history stops at the point the Iranian government was overthrown, and that nothing happened in the 50 years afterwards? Up until the 1970s,
220 Baroque : Few problems there. First how to find exactly where they are, probably by now all 16 different places. Then how to get there, and after the dramatic
221 Banco : Yes, they would. To get the 15 back unharmed, they'd certainly announce a "mistake" for their retrieval. The fact that they haven't means they are ab
222 Halls120 : Actually, there is a way to confirm the location of the incident. If either the UK or Iranian ships were using GPS and had their recorders on, which
223 Banco : That's what they've now released.
224 Post contains links Oli80 : Well they have before so I don't know why they wouldn't this time, especially if they felt they could get the 15 out. See this article; http://news.b
225 Banco : More likely it's the diplomatic way of allowing an exit from an impasse, irrespective of the rights and wrongs. The difference now is that relations
226 Post contains links David L : I don't see that as any justification for their actions. They must be fully aware of where the "internationally recognised" border is, even if they d
227 ME AVN FAN : No, it is very bad, absolutely bad. But possibly the only way open for Mr Blair. - NOTHING -- and I do NOT like it at all - THIS is the outcome to be
228 Baroque : That could move the thalweg, but you would need to be a better hydrologist than I to figure out which way. But in any event, it would be possible for
229 Baroque : Name: Baroque Date: 2007-03-28 18:06:22 Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 227): and that is the swamps of the Shatt-el-Arab which was drained and dried by Sad
230 Baroque : Name: Baroque Date: 2007-03-28 18:06:22 Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 227): and that is the swamps of the Shatt-el-Arab which was drained and dried by Sad
231 Post contains links and images BMIFlyer : News from Iran.... Female hostage to be released "this week". http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6503657.stm It's a start, but not really good enough, is i
232 HAWK21M : How long before the UK decides to use force.How much time will be given for Diplomatic workings. regds MEL
233 GDB : So, prima facia proof has been revealed. Trouble is, do the Rev Guards give a toss? Do whatever faction in Iran controlling them think the same? The U
234 Post contains links BMIFlyer : Iran TV shows female navy captive Iranian state television has broadcast an interview with captured British female sailor Faye Turney and footage of 1
235 ME AVN FAN : you canNOT see it as justification because it is NOT meant as a justification, and canNOT be a justification -
236 GDB : The footage was not unexpected, note they focussed on the female sailor, maybe reacting to news coverage here, as well as the mindset of the medieval
237 Dc863 : Hmmmm interesting how you left out Iran's involvement in the 1983 Marine Barracks suicide bombing in Beirut. Also TWA 847, taking hostages in Beirut
238 Post contains links Fumanchewd : She made the apology to the Iranian govenment and allowed herself to blame the sailors. The Iranian government will parade it to the media. She will
239 GDB : Quite so Dc863, this bunch of fanatics are the worst regime in the Mid East. I actually doubt the sanity of those like Arma-fantic or whatever his nam
240 Post contains images Halcyon : So for our Britons on here, is this going to happen soon or not? What is your government like in this respect? I'd like to see them home, but the agg
241 GDB : Hard to say, the UK government is very firm that no apology is needed, we have proof of no incursion, Iran has been caught out lying in this respect,
242 Post contains links ANCFlyer : Continue in Part 2, please. Iranian Forces Hold British Navy Sailors, II (by ANCFlyer Mar 29 2007 in Non Aviation) Any posts hitting after I lock this
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