747-600X From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 2777 posts, RR: 15 Posted (13 years 2 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 1283 times:
Another MidEast rant here:
Isreal is our friend 'cause we basically put up the Isreali state. Palestinian areas have the oil. Isrealis and Palestinians are at each other's throats because they both claim the holy land as that where their respective great ones walked... why can't they just agree that indeed it is a blessed land and leave it be... who cares who owns it? I mean, if one of them owns it - so what? What does that do to the other? Canada owns Banff National Park but lets me in just the same...?
AH! They're ignorant, I see. So... this concept of kindness is beneath them. Unfortunately China and Russia rely on the oil provided by mostly Palestinian areas. Thus if we go over there and bomb them out of existence we start a war with two big bad guys one of which as a dandy Air Force about twice the size of ours. BUT Isreal has a HUGE and advanced military of it's own. So we and our allies and the Isrealis all gang up, tell Russia and China we're ending the violence by flattening the MidEast, surround the Chinese with weapons at a safe distance and label them "DEFENSE" and then blow those fighting pricks in the M.E. to hell (which it seems is where they're going anyway 'cause I don't know many religions that embrace such inhuman crusading), pick out some oil mines from the ruins, and take over oil production. Sure we'd be without for a few months, but we could survive. We offer Russia and China each 1/3 of the total oil split, tell whoever we've just murdered they better not fight with us or we'll stomp down some more land, give Russia an economy on the oil, give China what China wants, get more money for ourselves, and warn everyone within twenty miles of the area we flattened that we're coming four or five days before we get there.
Criticize the hell out of this! I'm angry at these folks and this is my vent so vent too!
"Mental health is reality at all cost." -- M. Scott Peck, 'The Road Less Traveled'
Greeneyes53787 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 844 posts, RR: 0 Reply 1, posted (13 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1165 times:
Has anyone considered the idea that Arafat is out of his comfort zone with peace?
The Quran teaches both love and hate, war and peace. However, it declares that Zioninsts must be subdoed. If Zionists are going to be subdoed before Islam rests then all Jews and Christians are at risk from Muslims. Fortunately only a small number of Muslims act this way. Unfortunately this small number is dangerous and noisy.
So what do we do? And what does Israel do?
We cannot afford to pander. We must not flinch, and we certainly cannot allow terrorism to go unchecked. Islam teaches that being killed for a "holy war" is practically the best way to exist (or not exist). So killing them is probably not the answer. But what about a religious insult--that will continue clearly until the terrorism stops. Perhaps we might let it be known that their mosques will be covered with pig blood (or something as unthinkable) every time a terrorist act occurs.
My justification is that an eye for an eye does not work with Muslims (the Palistinian ones in question) because they like to be killed, or so they say. So instead of killing them find a far greater offense to threaten then with. Perhaps destroying the mosques and pouring water on the fire (the water publicly blessed by a rabbi), or another religious blasphemy might stop the killing. Hit them where it hurts, not where we think it should hurt.
But all anyone does to stop Arafat's attacks must be coordinated with Israel.
Jsbothe From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 3, posted (13 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1151 times:
i don't really know what all this fuss is about...if you do believe in a god, bad luck, but you don't have to kill people just because they believe in a different god. i think religions like christianity that preach peace and practice war should be abolished...
Greeneyes53787 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 844 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (13 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 1139 times:
Actually Christianity doesn't teach war. The Quran does. Don't mix these up! It is true that Roman Catholics and Holy Catholics (Protestants) conflict in South America, Ireland and other places. But that is not a case of Christians waring (in Ireland) as much as factions within Ireland waring. And this is complicated by the common hatred for Brits. And this terrible conflict is probably not justifyable. However, who am I to judge them? I am Irish but my family has been out of Ireland for 200 years.
Jesus Himself said "Blessed are the peacemakers..." And in Matthew 10, I believe, He said "Do not think that I have come to bring peace upon the earth. I have not come to bring peace but a sword."
So at first glance (the extent to which most people are courageous enough to study) it appears that Christianity teaches both. But at closer look we notice Jesus said, "For I have come to set at variance a man and his household..."
The central focus of Christianity is Jesus Christ Himself. And Jesus declared that because of the division in beliefs between family members wars and strife will continue til the end of the age.
So when looking at this present Palestinian conflict we notice a lot of name calling and brick throwing and stuff. And we also see the family resemblance between the two groups. Why? Because these two groups were once of the same household!
Abraham is the father of Isaac (by a Jewish woman, Sarah) and of Ishmael (by an Arabian woman, Haggar). And tracing this all the way until today we see that these two groups are kind of jealous of eachother. They have the same great grandfather but different great grandmothers.
They are vying for the same land.
But there is a common thread in Christianity. Christians hold firmly to the Jewish teachings contained within the Old Testament. So they naturally are friends with Israel. Further, the Bible shows where God will send protection upon those who protect Israel. It is a little more complicated than this but the idea is clear. A country that is made up of a great percentage of Christians and Jews is going to support and try to protect Israel.
Do you see that this conflict is not as simple as just religious people that talk peace and practice war?
Ps-it is easy to criticise people who are at war by finding a commonality and determining that that is the problem. "Just remove the religion and have peace." But reality and the easy answer are not closely related.
Marco From United Arab Emirates, joined Jul 2000, 4168 posts, RR: 17 Reply 5, posted (13 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 1128 times:
I thought we were supposed to repect each other's beliefs on this forum...isn't that what democracy is about? so you're not practising what you preach...and please don't judge billions of people who do belive in God because you are ONE person...and we are billions...learn how to respect people, because you don't know the first thing about Christianity...so ignorant
Marco From United Arab Emirates, joined Jul 2000, 4168 posts, RR: 17 Reply 7, posted (13 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 1129 times:
Yes you're right about what you said, no one is perfect, I'm sure lots of Christians have used their religion to do bad stuff...but thats the people not the religion, however on the other side in Islam it says that they can kill people...in Christianity it doesn't say that...but of course there have been Christians who used Christianity as an excuse to do stuff like that...it's natural...no one's perfect!
Greeneyes53787 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 844 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (13 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1119 times:
I already told you that Christianity doesn't teach people to have war with oneanother.
Christ said, "Love your enemies, bless those who persecute you," etc. Does that sound like a call to arms?
But we can, if we choose to, take those words and decide to force people to follow them. And when we do this we are not following Christ's call to all. One day, historically, someone asked Him what the greatest command of God was. And to that Jesus of Nazareth replied, "To love God with all your heart and mind and strength." And then He continued with, "And the second (most important command of God) is to love your neighbor as yourself."
So it might be said that neither Jesus Christ nor the Holy Bible teaches that people should war with eachother. So why do so called Christians (many are just misguided Christians) engage in wars for the sake of their religion?
I think this requires an understanding of human nature. People often take a part of truth and use it for their benefit. Politicians do it (not all), and salespeople do it (not all). And I think they do it because of their conversion to their product being based not on full understanding. They have a mind, a will and emotions (their souls) that are not totally coordinated toward the goal.
And until their entire soul is committed to their goal, or their God, there is a conflict of interest between what they represent and their self. And when the "self" gets in the way of truth--destruction occurs.
Now this is not the answer. It is part of the answer. If I had the entire answer I'd be a better man than I am.
I hope you take time to ponder these things. But I also hope you seek further wisdom on the subject of religion and war. Jesus tells us in the Bible that there will be wars and rumors of wars til the end of time. And I think this was said because He knew that the world would not ever be totally converted to Him.
Brissie_lions From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 9, posted (13 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1113 times:
Also, I forgot to mention to you earlier.
Can you please quote those sections of the Quran which promote and/or teach war? From what I understand of the Islamic faith, it is a more peaceful religion than either Christianity or Judaism. (Fundamentalism of all religions aside)
Superfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39456 posts, RR: 76 Reply 10, posted (13 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1110 times:
Let me set the facts straight!
As long as Isreal exist, there will never be peace in the Middle-East!
The Isrealis do not want peace!
Just reading your post just proves that the pro-Isreal probaganda in the pro-Isreal media is working here in the west. Look at Isreals pattern of provoking violence. What we here in the United States dont know is that we send about $1,000.00 per Isreali citizen of our hard earned tax dollars. Did any of this come up when the republicans took control of Congress in 1995? NO I thaught they were going to shake up Washington and reform government. Although Sesame Street and PBS got the axe.
Isreal is a small county about the size of Long Island and they have nuclear weapons made right here in the good-ol United States of America. All the Palistinians have is sticks and stones. The media only sends us footage of them throwing rocks. To there credit, it goes to show how committed they are to defending there land. Look back when President Jimmy Carter couragiously negotiated peace with Sadat and Isreal in 1979. It was Isreal that didn't want to comply!
And some of you want to bash Islam!
Give me a break, we Christians have blood on our hands too!
I say we stop aiding Isreal and let the indigenous people of that reigon determine Isreals fate.
747-600X From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 2777 posts, RR: 15 Reply 11, posted (13 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1096 times:
I meant oil in 'palestinian' areas.
Anyway - I hope the criticism of me wasn't about my opinion of religion. I feel no pride or arrogance in stating outright that a religion that favors killing people or even itself over other religions is just as closed minded as I am when I say it's a d*mn stupid idea. Anyway, I am Christian to a mild extent and don't think it any better or worse than any religion because they all seem pretty vain to me.
"Mental health is reality at all cost." -- M. Scott Peck, 'The Road Less Traveled'
TWAneedsNOhelp From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 12, posted (13 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1097 times:
Superfly, unfortunately your not supersmart.
Check this link and describe the "sticks and stones" found in the pictures.
As for Israel's nuclear weapons program. Don't worry amigo it wasn't developed here in the "good-ol United States of America". You can thank France and Russian Israeli emigrees for that one.
Peace? HA. Israel made peace with Egypt in 1976 after that country invaded Israel on its most holy day, Yom Kippur. After repelling Egyptain invading forces, and conquering the entire Sinai peninsula, Israel returned the peninsula. New leader Anwar Sadat, a martyr is anyone is, made peace with Israel, only to be assassinated.
Jordan wise up too and the two countrys are now on the road to friendship. Syria doesn't want peace but rather the strategic military highlands called Golan after its ineffective and bumbling military lost it in a war it started.
Lebanon knows peace via 2 words "Katyusha" and "kidnap."
REMEMBER THIS:I say we stop aiding Isreal and let the indigenous people of that reigon determine Isreals fate.
My friend, they have for the last 50 years. Unfortunately they have utterly failed. Israel is still around. Its GDP is higer than its 3 neighbors combined and its economy continues to expand at a rate higher than most Western European nations.
As for love of peace on the other side. Well, after Israel's creations (per UN mandate), Arabs did 3 things:
1) some stayed in Israel and became full citizens
2) some fled to neighboring countrys where they warmly embraced with putrid refugee camps, denial of basic civil rights, and death. This is called "Arab Solidarity".
3) Others stayed in the territories where they lived under Egyptian rule in Gaza untill that country (wisely) refused to administer it anymore.
Superfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39456 posts, RR: 76 Reply 13, posted (13 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1094 times:
I went to that web-site you posted. Its a pro-Isreal web site. Of course they aren't going to say anything bad about themselves.
How are Arabs treated in Isreal?
Why is it that the true Isrealis (Ethiopians) treated as second-class citizens in Isreal?
I am not trying to out smart you in this forum and I am sorry if I am offending you. I've agreed with you in other forums.
Isreal just can not admit that they are part of the problem over there.
TWAneedsNOhelp From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 14, posted (13 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 1088 times:
Quoted from you
"Of course they aren't going to say anything bad"
Supafly, they don't have to say anything, the pictures speak for themselves.
I'm not offended at all, because I know the truth. Its a shame more don't.
"Isreal just can not admit that they are part of the problem over there"
What does that mean? Of course they can't becasue its the Israeli's (and many Palestinians also) who are praying for peace. The region can't grow and acheive prosperity through violence, rioting, mayhem, and terrorism. So long as Arafat continues to send young children to the firing line (to be martyrs), so long as he continues to call for "death to the jews" so long as Hizbullah continues to kidnap Israelis the problem will most certainly continue. Supafly, it makes you think, "who really wants peace?"
Jsbothe From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 15, posted (13 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 1087 times:
if you had really read my post before posting yours, you would have noticed that i said "reiligions that preach peace and practice war"... i never denied that christianity is in fact quite pacifistic, but unfortunately many christians feel like making war because of their religion.
i know that removing the religions would not end all these wars on this planet, but at least all these guys starting wars would have to make up other excuses for their wars based on economical reasons...and they would not find so many supporters so easily...
and please do not try to make me believe in god (whatever god you like), you will fail.
Superfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39456 posts, RR: 76 Reply 16, posted (13 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 1084 times:
Its easy to hide behind religion to promote ones cause. Many hypocrits do.
Pat Robertson, Arafat, Barak you name it.
RE: TWAneedsNOhelp. My user name is 'Superfly', not 'Supafly'. I spelled your username right. Grant me the same respect please. Also you did not answer my question about the treatment of Arabs in Isreal.
Greeneyes53787 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 844 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (13 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1070 times:
I am sorry for my obvious mistake. I do not have a good excuse for it. Today I read your post again and found out for myself that I responded to no one. And now that I have read your latest post to me I must admit that you seem to be a very likeable person.
We probably both feel that "holy wars" serve little purpose. And I want to see the end of all wars. But I am willing to go to war to protect my interests. So I think that war makes more sense than peace at times. If a father's little girl is taken from him he will go to extremes to save her, even to go to war. And to him I would applaud.
There are those of us that believe in God but think He is not logical. And there are those of us that just don't believe in God at all. I read a story about the former. This is a story of a man sitting under a tree that had nuts in it. He looked up into the tree and mockingly said to God, "Somehow I do not think you are very smart. You have made a huge tree to hold small nuts and a small plant to hold big watermelons. Big tree, small nuts; small plant, big watermelons. Your sense of proportion does not seem to have much meaning." Just then a small nut fell from the tree and hit him on his head. He paused and muttered, "Thank God that was not a watermelon!"
Sometimes our wisdom needs tempering. Often a notion such as the wisdom of God or the existence of God (for anyone including me) resides in the illusion of the omniscience of the individual. We seem to think we have all knowledge and truth--and I am probably one of these individuals too. But for me (just me, now) I found a place for knowing and hearing God. Then there was a moment of surrender, of personal surrender. My commitment to God has sufficient objective truth so that the truth claims can be verified. I realise after hard study that the Bible is not a fanciful book of spiritual speculation conjured up by dreamers. There are historical, geographical and philosophical assertions that can be measured and confirmed by the historian, the archeologist and the philosopher, respectively.
I feel that many of my associates and friends wax on about things, and about many of them they have good understanding. But about God they are rich in allusions to what others have said but rather impoverished in their own personal knowledge of God. Many barely see God as the necessary being of creation but rather distant. While I experience God in a presence in my affliction. God hasn't abandoned me but is with me personally.
Historically the man named Job had lost everything. Even his health was bad. He walked on sores on his feet. Yet with all this he cried, "I know my Redeemer lives...How my heart yearns within me! (Job 19)" And today people with good minds and bad situations tell similar stories of personal knowledge of the presence of God in their lives.
Well, that's my understanding of God. Notice, I am not selling anything here. I am just telling my conscience. As for you? I believe that if there is a God this being will reveal a personal message to you. And if not, then there is no God.
Ps-William Cowper wrote, "Blind unbelief is sure to err, and scan His works in vain; God is His own interpreter, and He will make it plain.
SOUTHPACIFIC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 19, posted (13 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 1060 times:
Enough of all the fighting, guys. Fighting over religions and what they prech or who is right or wrong will neither get you ar anyone else anywhere. Look back, all the fights anyone's ever had over religion never got them anywhere, so save your breath, guys, the fighting will never end because there is no solution. People will always believe what they want to believe and will die to protect their beliefs. The vast majority of the world is not open-minded and open-hearted, so quit fighting, you will get nowhere.
OK, let's bend the subject a little. As the opic says, we can survive without Palestine's oil. Well I don't really think so. Have any of you noticed that in the gulf war crisis our gas priced skyrocketed and our economy fell out?
Well if we get involved in the middle east, namely Israel, here's a possible scenario:
World War Three.
Why? Well unless whoever in the White House is very good with words and very, very SMART, it's nearly unavoidable if we get involved.
First off, the Arab Brothers of Israel seem to be backing the Palestinians. Also, France backs the Palestinians. Now, we back Isreal and send missiles to bomb the shit out of the Palestinians. Well this pisses of Iraq and Iran, and they start attacking US, as well as Irael. Then the rest of Ireals backers, and us, attack Iran and Iraq. Then the other Arab nations have to get incolved and it's one whole bloody war. Soon the superpowers are involved, with Russia and China massing against us. Of course we have our defenders, such as the British, and they go in after the Russians and Chinese. then their allies get incolved etc, etc. And it's one big bloody World War three.
Now don't get me wrong, this is a worst-case scenario. I'm not a paranoid freak, I just know what it COULD come to in the worst case. Just bear with me! 9-P
Now you have to understand that a world war, with the current technology, technically could bring about an end to the human race, the proverbial Armageddon of your Bible. Why? Well you must understand that we're talking GLOBAL THERMONUCLEAR WAR, not only that, we've also got tons of advanced bilogical weapons all over the world that could reak havoc.
So worst case scenario?
Nuclear winter, advanced human deformities as a result of biological weapons fallout, radiation poisoning, weather upheaval, toxic fumes throughout the world, etc. It'd be hell and quite possibly the end of the human race, but again, that's the WORST CASE SCENARIO! The very same thing could have happened at the Persian Gulf War, but it didn't by some luck chance.
Now, we face the same impending problem. All I can say is Gore r Bush, whoever gets into office, better make DAMN sure they DON'T get involved.
I'm pretty well convinced though that whether it be now or three hundred years from now, the next world war will begin in the middle east. Just my opinion.
anyone agree that we DON'T get involved? Remember, I'm not saying that all this shit WILL happen, I'm saying there's a possibility that it COULD happen.
Tbar220 From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7011 posts, RR: 27 Reply 20, posted (13 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1053 times:
I will answer your question about Arab treatment in Israel.
Eighteen percent of the Israeli population is Arab.
Five percent of the Israeli Army is Arab (Druze).
The Arab's who stayed in Israel after 1948 were granted rights as citizens after the war and became Israeli Citizens, living and working in the nation. They have the right to vote, equal rights in government and the workplace. The only rights they are denied is travel to Israel's belligerent nations, including Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and Iraq. All Israeli Citizens and residents are denied travel to or from those countries in and out of Israel.
Ten percent of the Israeli Parliament, ten out of 120 members, are Arab's, representing Arab political parties in the nation. Politically, this is the same as the position women and blacks and other minorities hold in the United States, but I don't see you complaining about that.
When surveyed, 96% percent of Arab's living in Israel said they were proud to be Israeli Arab's, and want to live peacefully and coexist peacefully with Israeli's, showing that the 4% minority can indeed be very powerful.
Arab's and Israeli's have been living peacefully side by side for decades in Tel Aviv, Jaffo, The Galilee, and many other areas.
There may be a small minority of Arab's and Jew's who have a hatred for eachother, but the majority of people don't want fighting, neither side wants to see it's own soldiers horribly slaughtered by a bloodthirsty mob, neither side wants to see its children killed by stray bullets, neither side truly wants to see this many deaths.
It remains unclear to me as to why you think Arab's are treated poorly in Israel. Look at how the Israeli's treat the Palestinians! Over 1,000,000 Palestinians come to work in Israel's cities everyday. Israel provides 90% or the West Bank's and Gaza's water and electricity supplies. The Palestinians were welcomed with refugee camps in Jordan and Egypt, and when Israel offered to give back the West Bank, Jordan wouldn't take it because of the Palestinians. When Israel offered back Sinai, Egypt took that but allowed Israel to keep Gaza, because of the Palestinians! Israel has been the only nation that has been open to the Palestinians and this is despite years upon years of terrorist acts by Arafat's PLO. So why is it seen that Israel is the bad guy here? I just don't understand.
For SOUTHPACIFIC, look at the example of Iraq. Did Iraq's Arab Brothers come to their aid? No, because they knew that the United States would just go in and kick their sorry little armies butts. Did anybody come to Iraq's aid? No. So if the Arab nations attack Israel, and U.S.A. comes to Israel's aid, don't expect any outside nations to come to the Arab countries aid because the U.S. and Israel would be fighting in defense. It didn't happen in the Yom Kippur War, and it wouldn't happen now.
TWAneedsNOhelp From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 21, posted (13 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 1034 times:
Well said, Tzvika, Israel in reality behind all the press B.S. has treated the Palestinians significantly better than any of its Arab neighbors. It was President Hafez el Asad who committed masacre against Palestinians 20 (?) years ago when he destroyed an entire town that had proested against him. And like I said, the Lebanese are no better. Palestinians are confined to refugee camps and denied EVEN THE MOST BASIC CIVIL LIBERTYS INCLUING JOBS.
Also, everytime this happens, all the Arab nations say "oh Israel this...and Israel that....." but NEVER DO ANYTHING. Its funny to hear the Sultanate of Oman declare that it no longer recognizes Israel, because every time this happens small countrys, Oman, Qatar, UAE, all declare this, yet do nothing. Arab solidarity? ha
Arabs, you want to learn solidarity? Look to Israel. When Ethiopian Jews were in danger of persecution during their countrys vicious civil war. On Friday, May 24 1991, and continuing non-stop for 24 hours with famine and revolution at the doorstep of Ethiopia's capital, the Israel Air Force airlifted nearly 15,000 men, women, and children in 41 sorties. Less than 24 hoours separated the first takeoff from the last.. Thats solidarity.
747-451 From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 2417 posts, RR: 6 Reply 22, posted (13 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 1034 times:
I have read this thread with great interest. All of the participants here have displayed different points of view, in a civilised, if sometimes heated forum. Now if only the UN and others could do this too.
Back to the oil question....
In the US, I think we will have a hard time if oil prices go up or have an embargo. I am old enough to remember the gas lines. But we have come full circle. The lessons learned from that have all been forgotten. Big SUV's, old inefficient power plants etc. Emptying strategic oil reserves is not the answer ( we will have to replenish them at some point at a higher cost). We haven't really done anything dramatic to improve the situation in the 26 years since the first pinch. We never learn. ( It seems that airlines and manufacturer's did. Old ineeficent planes were supplemented and supplanted by the A300 and 747 which were really the first of the "new wave" of high capacity and efficient aircraft...)
My only fear is that violence will once again be exported out of the region in to acts of terrorism.
Tbar220 From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7011 posts, RR: 27 Reply 23, posted (13 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 1033 times:
Good point TWA. The Ethiopians were "rescued" by the Israeli's from the ensuing events that unfolded. The Israeli's went out of their way to help the Ethiopians from what would happen in the region, so you say that Ethiopians are treated as second class citizens? I think not. This is no situation of the Ethiopians being unwanted immigrants, or looked down upon as are many minorities in the good ol' United States of America.