Beaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 34 Posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 914 times:
As a member of the French seed-exchange organization "Kokopelli" (they promote the produce of organic historic seed and are against so called hybrid-seeds ,that are sterile..) I have received an interesting article about the truth behind the production of "bio-fuel" or Ethanol.
In order to produce 1 kg of Ethanol,it requires 500 grams of carbon, 2400 gr of mais (corn) and a staggering 3000 liter of water,since the growth of corn needs an average of 1200 liters of water on average per Kg of corn.
If you add the energy to harvest the corn,to transport the coal ( or even worse if the distillation uses wood,the wood helps to speed up de-forrestation in Brazil..),to pump the water ,the energy balance is disastrous for the Ethanol.
It is expected that -specially in countries like Brazil ,Indonesia and Haiti -soil erosion will increase dramatically due to mono-culture of corn,cutting of wood for the distillers and wood -cutting to make space for cattle-farms,needed to feed the workers .
Rather than using the corn for feeding the population,the prices of Tortillas in Mexico have already risen sharply and generated social unrest .
The price of a bushel (25Kg ) of corn has gone up from 1,85$ to more than 4$ within 18 months in the USA!
Water ,being a more and more precious commodity, should not be wasted on a proceed with such negative energy balance!
For those who read French -the article is Here
AsstChiefMark From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 1, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 910 times:
Corn is probably the worst material to use to make ethanol. It requires too much processing to get ready for fermentation. Grasses and other green material is a better choice.
AndesSMF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 3, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 893 times:
Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 1): Corn is probably the worst material to use to make ethanol
Agreed, but as discussed before, sugarcane (Brazil) does not grow outside of the tropics. But there are better methods to obtaining ethanol.
Quoting KiwiinOz (Reply 2): Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter):
the prices of Tortillas in Mexico have already risen sharply and generated social unrest .
I think this should be the thread title.....sounds really cool
It is not cool for those in Mexico who depend on corn for food, after all, the price has more than doubled.
Beaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 34 Reply 4, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 881 times:
The article in Kokopelli also speaks about dreadful conditions in "labourcamps" in Brazil and other tropical areas,where agriculture-workers are held slave-like .Very often in remote-areas,these haziendas escape legal control due to their geographical remote-location .
I am a fervent defender of organic agriculture ,but the use of the term bio in association with Ethanol is missleading,since it opens the door for all kinds of abuse,monopoly-traffic,energy waste and water miss-use.
The use of organic waste to produce ethanol seems a more adequate process,also collection of toxic algaes is currently experienced in France.
The most envirenmently friendly process is still use of solar-and/or wind energy to produce electricity and split water in Hydrogen and Oxygen by a process called electrolyse.Wind energy can therefore be "stored "or transformed into storable energy form.
The ethanol road is the wrong road !
Springbok747 From Australia, joined Nov 2004, 4387 posts, RR: 15 Reply 5, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 873 times:
Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 1): Corn is probably the worst material to use to make ethanol.
Aren't they using corn to produce ethanol being used for the Indycars? There was a big report about this on the news here with that chick Danica Patrick supporting it...if she supports it then it must be good, who cares about the environment
Kaddyuk From Wallis and Futuna, joined Nov 2001, 4125 posts, RR: 34 Reply 6, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 857 times:
Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 4): The article in Kokopelli also speaks about dreadful conditions in "labourcamps" in Brazil and other tropical areas,where agriculture-workers are held slave-like
...Another Day, Another Dollar...!
Whoever said "laughter is the best medicine" never had Gonorrhea
AirTranTUS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 7, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 839 times:
They should put more effort into converting oil from McD's, BK, etc into fuel. American's love those places, and there is quite a bit of oil to be put to good use.
AndesSMF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 8, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 837 times:
Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 4): Wind energy can therefore be "stored "or transformed into storable energy form.
NEVER!!
Let me tell you why:
Energy storage always has consisted of batteries. Batteries create hazardous waste, and most rechargable batteries will not last more than 5 years before needing replacement. All you manage to do with battery storage is:
1. Create an eventual hazardous waste problem. Here in the US, we are not even allowed to dispose of batteries in the garbage.
2. Adequate storage batteries require a lot of space, and weight a lot, thereby creating additional building requirements for their use.
Solar and wind work in conjuction with normal electrical power generation. What you want is to add solar panels to houses, have these houses feed power back to the grid during peak use hours, and use normal generating methods during off peak hours at night.
Of course the problem is that solar and wind power are not reliable, in other words, you won't get any solar power during cloudy days, and wind is also fickle. These more environmentally friendly methods have to work with what we already have, and the normal generating capacity has to be provided anyways during those days were wind a solar are not available.
Another seldom mentioned problem is 'voltage drop'. That is, the farther your generating source is from your usage point, the more energy is lost in the transmission of the power to the user.
Beaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 34 Reply 9, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 830 times:
But there is not need to store the electric power in batteries in order to perform electrolysis...
You can feed the electric power directly into the eclectrolytical container and collect the gas after splitting O² and H individually.The gas can be stored under pressure or liquefied.
II realize there are still many items and details to be resolved,but investments into research to manage wind-energy storage are certainly no waste of funds .
Acidradio From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 1810 posts, RR: 12 Reply 10, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 824 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
I'm with you - corn, as a feedstock for fermentation, should be reserved for us WHISKEY DRINKERS ONLY!
At least in the US, especially the Midwest, corn (actually all ag products come to think of it) is very political. We have entire states of corn growing here and no politician ever wants to say anything that could be perceived as against a farm product. We only gain 1.2 units of energy for every 1 unit expended in processing corn into ethanol fuel. However, sugar cane, which is commonly used in places like Brazil offers something like 8 units of energy for every 1 expended to produce the fuel!
I hope we can find a better way to produce ethanol in the US, such as from grasses. Brazil is lucky to have the ability to produce so much sugar cane, which is a great feedstock to produce ethanol.
777236ER From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2001, 12959 posts, RR: 56 Reply 11, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 793 times:
Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 4): The most envirenmently friendly process is still use of solar-and/or wind energy to produce electricity and split water in Hydrogen and Oxygen by a process called electrolyse.Wind energy can therefore be "stored "or transformed into storable energy form.
That's all very well in the long term, but until PEM fuel cell technology matures, wind energy gains from economies of scale and there's some kind of hydrogen grid, alternatives must be looked at. The use of biomass fuels in the short to medium term can help to reduce carbon emissions, especially in sectors where the use of other technology isn't practical (aviation, for example).
BHXFAOTIPYYC From Portugal, joined Jun 2005, 1644 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 772 times:
I watched an interview with someone from Kenya a few days ago who was complaining about the West telling Africans that they must invest in solar and wind energy which are both hugely expensive and fairly unreliable. He noted that Africa has huge coal deposits and a fair amount of oil (as a continent - not talking specific countries here) which are by far the cheapest sources of energy. He was pointing out that when people are dirt poor and don't have enough to eat, "saving" the environment isn't top priority.
Breakfast in BHX, lunch in FAO, dinner in TIP, baggage in YYC.
777236ER From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2001, 12959 posts, RR: 56 Reply 13, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 771 times:
Quoting BHXFAOTIPYYC (Reply 12): I watched an interview with someone from Kenya a few days ago who was complaining about the West telling Africans that they must invest in solar and wind energy which are both hugely expensive and fairly unreliable. He noted that Africa has huge coal deposits and a fair amount of oil (as a continent - not talking specific countries here) which are by far the cheapest sources of energy. He was pointing out that when people are dirt poor and don't have enough to eat, "saving" the environment isn't top priority.
The biggest hypocrisy is the West telling poorer nations not to use dirty fuels and materials, despite the prosperity of the West directly coming from coal, gas and oil reserves and the mass deforestation of Europe and North America.
MaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 13965 posts, RR: 51 Reply 14, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 721 times:
Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 3): Agreed, but as discussed before, sugarcane (Brazil) does not grow outside of the tropics.
And our government bends over to the idiot farmers growing corn and puts up trade barriers to the cheaper and more efficient sugarcane .
Beaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 34 Reply 15, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 712 times:
Soon we will see the petrol mafia being replaced by the Ethanol-maffia...
Politicians never listen to envirenment experts but will always find "consultants" that will prove what they want to hear.
And media -specially TV- will do the rest to brainwash the great public that "Bio-Fuel" is good for the planet..
Mt99 From Bouvet Island, joined May 1999, 5454 posts, RR: 8 Reply 16, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 703 times:
Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 8): Energy storage always has consisted of batteries
Hmm.. there are other ways.. There are superconductors.. flywheels.. and Pumped Storage Hydro..
Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 8): Of course the problem is that solar and wind power are not reliable, in other words, you won't get any solar power during cloudy days, and wind is also fickle.
Actually - "fickle" wind as you call it..its not really fickle. I have seen production charts from wind farms and the generally stay within 30% of their rated capacity. Although some times it does come bite you in the behind.
Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 8): Another seldom mentioned problem is 'voltage drop'. That is, the farther your generating source is from your usage point, the more energy is lost in the transmission of the power to the user
That my friend.. is not a big of a problem as you make it sound. I can get into details if you want..
That being said. Wind Power is NOT the solution to the worlds energy crisis. Its merely a placebo for tree huggers and a way to make Utilities "look good." Its nice and all - but to point wind energy causes more problems that it is worth
Mir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 17404 posts, RR: 59 Reply 17, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 694 times:
Just out of curiosity, how well do sugar beets produce ethanol?
-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
Falstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 5091 posts, RR: 33 Reply 18, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 690 times:
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 14): And our government bends over to the idiot farmers growing corn and puts up trade barriers to the cheaper and more efficient sugarcane .
People who make their living farming would disagree. I would hardly call farmers idiots. Did you eat today?, thank a farmer.The entire point behind E-85 is that it is an alternative to foreign oil. If the US wants to end dependence on foreign oil it makes no sense to buy sugarcane from a foreign nation. E-85 is not exactly environmentally friendly, but it is an alternative fuel.
Quoting Acidradio (Reply 10): I'm with you - corn, as a feedstock for fermentation, should be reserved for us WHISKEY DRINKERS ONLY!
We beer drinkers have to have some of that action too.
Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 7): They should put more effort into converting oil from McD's, BK, etc into fuel. American's love those places, and there is quite a bit of oil to be put to good use.
We do that at the school where I teach and a teacher runs the stuff in his 1972 Mercedes 220D. We have a all kinds of stuff to make that fuel. It is a pain in the butt, you really have to love making it for it to be worth while. I have run it in my 80 300TD, but had some reliability issues I didn't care to deal with again.
Disruptivehair From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2007, 598 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 690 times:
Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 1): Corn is probably the worst material to use to make ethanol. It requires too much processing to get ready for fermentation. Grasses and other green material is a better choice.
AsstChiefMark From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 20, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 683 times:
Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 5): Aren't they using corn to produce ethanol being used for the Indycars?
Probably. It would be much more efficient to use more than the dried, mature corn kernals to make ethanol. If the corn is harvested while it's still green, the entire plant -- kernals, stalks, leaves, and husks -- could be used and with much less energy and resource consumption.
Unfortunately, farmers spit the best part of the plant out the ass end of their combines because they like to harvest corn after it's been field-dried.
PPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 7947 posts, RR: 49 Reply 21, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 673 times:
Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter): In order to produce 1 kg of Ethanol,it requires 500 grams of carbon, 2400 gr of mais (corn) and a staggering 3000 liter of water,since the growth of corn needs an average of 1200 liters of water on average per Kg of corn.
The amount of ethanol produced from 1kg of sugar cane today is much higher than it was 30 years ago, and the same can be true for corn. It's called R&D.
If it has such an energy inefficient balance, I don't see how private enterprise would have led this last rise in ethanol-fueled cars nor how it would have helped Brazil achieve energy independence.
AndesSMF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 22, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 670 times:
Quoting Mt99 (Reply 16): I can get into details if you want..
Yes, please.
Quoting Mt99 (Reply 16): I have seen production charts from wind farms and the generally stay within 30% of their rated capacity
Which means you make your production facility much bigger to keep it within a certain capacity.
Quoting Falstaff (Reply 18): The entire point behind E-85 is that it is an alternative to foreign oil.
But it should be an alternative that is better than what we currently have, and right now the way it is being done I doubt that it provides any real benefits.
PPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 7947 posts, RR: 49 Reply 24, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 665 times:
Quote: Ethanol is seen in some circles as an attack on indigenous cultures,[14] particularly in Central America, where corn is the staple crop.
Also, the energy returned on energy invested EROEI for ethanol is close to 1, which means that it takes nearly as much energy (through natural gas based fertilizers, farm equipment, transformation from corn or other materials, and transportation) to create ethanol as the ethanol itself produces when put to work. Lynn Ellen Doxon flatly rejects these claims because the EROEI models fail to include the energy reducing byproducts of ethanol production. For instance, EROEI assumes the distilation process would require petroleum products. The heat needed for distilation can easily be produced by burning the corn stalks. Similarly, Doxon points out the EROEI report does not account for the beneficial waste products produced from corn based ethanol. Cogeneration units produce electricity from corn stalks and use waste heat in the distilation process, waste mash is used as a high protein animal feed, and ash and animal waste from the entire agricultural process eliminates the need for petroleum based fertilizers. [Alcohol Fuel Handbook].
Oil has historically had a much higher EROEI, especially on land in self-pressurized areas, but also under the sea, which only offshore drilling rigs can get to. Besides this, the amount of ethanol needed to run the Unites States, for example, is greater than its own farmland could produce, even if fields used for food were converted into cornfields. It is for these reasons that many people thinking about Peak Oil do not believe that ethanol is a real solution. However, others disagree pointing out that ethanol production does not have to be grown in the fields. Liquid Fuels of Ohio for instance produces ethanol from expired groceries.
Consumer Reports from October 2006, questions the fuel economy of a flex fuel vehicle [5]. Specifically the report notes that fuel economy drops when an automobile uses E-85. The report assumed that ethanol and e-85 contains the same amount of energy as gasoline per gallon. Yet ethanol supporters, like Lynn Ellen Doxon carefully point out that internal combustion engines designed to run on gasoline will need more alcohol than gasoline to drive a similar distance, but she also claims that automobiles designed to run on ethanol burn the ethanol more efficiently and they have achieved fuel efficiency ratings of 100 mpg [The Alcohol Fuel Handbook].
Generally it is known that range is lower, but the lower costs per liter make it still an economic advantage.
[Edited 2007-03-27 18:08:39]
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
25 Mt99: Voltage drop occurs due to the resitance of the conductor. And according to my good friend Mr.Ohm it is also a factor of the current through it. So a
26 PPVRA: As with most things in the third world, legal control suffers with lack of proper funding. But they do exist. A few days ago (week maybe two), there
27 AndesSMF: Yes, and there you see the reason for high voltage transmission. However, the calculation will show that voltage drops with distance, therefore you d
28 Mt99: Yea.. i cant argue with that - But then you get into NIMBY issues..
29 AndesSMF: Bingo! You see, you then HAVE to build these plants far away, which then necessitates larger generating capacities to offset the losses from long dis
30 Mt99: Transmsssion losses in the US are what somewhat low.. God i wish i remember off the top of my head.. but i want to say its less than 3%.. ill double
31 AeroWesty: I remember when McDonald's came out with a burger that had fresh tomatoes on it. Tomato prices tripled in the markets as a result of their soaking up
32 Beaucaire: Actually there are more vegetarians out there than you think.. 90 % of the Indian polulation is vegetarian - and in Europe an ever increaing amount o
33 AeroWesty: I know how many vegetarians there are. What I was asking was were you going to become a vegetarian simply because of how much water it takes to produ
34 Beaucaire: my reasons for becoming a vegetarian are rather more ethical nature..see my previous post about animals rights and my compliance with the ideas that w
35 AeroWesty: My question still wasn't answered, but oh well, I've other things to do today.
36 Beaucaire: To answer your question -the amount of water used to produce 1 Kg of poultry or beef is relevant to me-but my main-reasons are simply I don't like ani
37 MaverickM11: I thank him by paying taxes so I can buy more expensive produce No kidding...I also think teachers unions are the scourge of the planet but I'm sure
38 STLGph: incorrect. there are new developments that work like this -- wind energy farms will produce energy that is transferred to a grid system over a series
39 AndesSMF: My whole issue is simply using batteries as storage systems, as those bring other issues to the forefront, but what you wrote and explain about sound
40 Mt99: Actually what STL described is perfectly plausible. Its a combination of wind energy and pumped storage hydro. They will basically use the wind power
41 STLGph: if this first one is a go, i look for many others to pop out in the middle of 2010's or so.
42 STLGph: bio boom continues. http://desmoinesregister.com/apps/pb...SINESS01/70327019/1001/NEWS&lead=1
43 AndesSMF: I am not disagreeing with the assessment as well. All I said was that storage thru batteries is not recommended. Even our local electrical utility do
44 STLGph: i hear you loud and clear. another engineer on one of these projects is looking at acquifer development below landfills in order to get more bang for
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