Beaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25 Posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 1584 times:
I find that visit highly important and think she does the right thing!
If you have problems with a country and/or it's leaders,you have to speak with them rather than putting them into a dark corner and ban any contacts (like Mr. Chirac..)
One must not appreciate the current leaders in Damascus,but at least by sending the right signal one can achieve to de-escalate their relationship with Iran and bring them back to normal ties with the West.
Mrs. Angela Merkel who is currently visiting the region ,should have included Syria on her agenda as well-but seemingly she is still biased as to whom to speak to ;European M.E. doctrines seem to have been influenced by Jaques Chirac,who persistently denied any contacts with Syria ,over the countries role in the Killing of Mr. Hariri.
But never did he -Chirac- accept to comment on the ways Hariri amassed his fortune at the demise of the Lebanese people.That is obviously not a reason to kill him,but it put's a little perspective on the character of the man.
Good luck to Nancy - mabruk...
Yellowstone From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 3071 posts, RR: 7 Reply 1, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 1575 times:
I agree. I think one of the most dangerous moves to make in international relations is to totally shut off connections with another country. And it's such a juvenile action, really. All it is is the silent treatment scaled up to the national level.
Hydrogen is an odorless, colorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people.
Yeah, but then who would be elected in her place? She comes from the loony side of S.F. (as if there's a sane side). They'll probably force her to wear a veil over her eyes to ignore the constant blinking.
LTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 12680 posts, RR: 13 Reply 5, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 1493 times:
I think that there are several major issues that Pelosi must be very careful about in any discussions in her visit in Syria or it's leader. The biggest one is not to take Syria's side as to anything to do with Israel or anything counterdictory to the USA's absolute and total support of the government and right wing politicans of Israel. Then you have the sensitive issues of Syria's involvement in Lebanon and their government. There is the belief that the Syrian government supports terror against the USA, Israel, and elsewhere including letting terrorists to live or operate out of or via Syria. Syria may have become a major hiding place for ex-Bathists from Iraq which Syria borders.
Yellowstone From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 3071 posts, RR: 7 Reply 8, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 1451 times:
So aside from the fact that several of you don't like Speaker Pelosi, does anyone have an actual opinion about her trip? So far all we've heard is a bunch of people bashing her and not talking about the issue the OP brought up.
Hydrogen is an odorless, colorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people.
Beaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25 Reply 9, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 1446 times:
it seems amazing the many fervent supporters of Bush ( ..since they don't like Pelosi.) have forgotten in what type of situation W got the United States in Iraq. Tens of thousands of killed civilians for the sake of a badly reasoned doctrine,that by the elimination of Saddam Hussein all problems there will go away.
If there are two capitals in the near and Middle East that should receive visits of foreign secretaries ,it's Tehran and Damascus.The M.E. Problems are not resolved in Riyadh,Cairo ,Amman or Qatar but there .When there are problems with two regimes that don't comply with the west's political standards, you've got to talk with them .The idea to isolate Bashar al-Assad -like Jacques Chirac promotes - is the wrong method.
If Lebanon and the Palestinians should find some form of normality in their daily lives,an agreement over the return of the Golan heights ,a defined State of Palestine ,secured borders and recognition for Israel by all Arabs and the rights for Iran to have access to civil nuclear energy are mandatory.Anything less will ciment the continuation of the current stall.
One might not like Nancy Pelosi because she's too far "left" for many republicans-but her foreign politic cant be worse than W' s -because he hasn't any credible visions for the Middle East (neither for SouthAmerica..)
Yanksn4 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1402 posts, RR: 12 Reply 10, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 1426 times:
Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 9): it seems amazing the many fervent supporters of Bush ( ..since they don't like Pelosi.) have forgotten in what type of situation W got the United States in Iraq.
since when does it mean if you don't like Pelosi you're automatically a Bush supporter? there are thousand's of people that hate Bush and Pelosi at the same time (including me). Pelosi is a broad that has no chance of ever improving country with her insane liberal mentallity and hatred for the military.
Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 9): When there are problems with two regimes that don't comply with the west's political standards, you've got to talk with them .
but what good is talk when these two regimes have proven they can not be trusted when it comes to agreements and are even willing to die for the cause they proclaim? time and time again the west has tried to talk to Iran and Syria, but each time we get pushed back (see Iran and their nuke arms program). when these two idiots won't listen, you have to put more force and show you're not screwing around.
Beaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25 Reply 12, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 1417 times:
Quoting Yanksn4 (Reply 10): but what good is talk when these two regimes have proven they can not be trusted when it comes to agreements and are even willing to die for the cause they proclaim? time and time again the west has tried to talk to Iran and Syria, but each time we get pushed back (see Iran and their nuke arms program). when these two idiots won't listen, you have to put more force and show you're not screwing around.
..like nuke them back to stone-age ????
You tried force in Iraq and created more mess than there was before - you tried force force in Somalia with the know result,you tried force in Vietnam with a lost war and politics prevail over force, you tried force in South America and created socialist governments allover the continent supporting Castro...
Maybe it's time to re-think strategies and actually listen ,sit down and talk with your "enemies" rather than writing war-scenarios.It might sound surealistic,but even Iranians and Syrians are capable to detect an honest approach to resolving a problem. C'ause Iran is not exclusively a massive block of blindfolded Ayatollah's but there are very pragmatic individuals at the brink of power (like the major of Tehran,Bagher Ghalibaf..).if some would dare to look somewhat behind the media-trash that spills over us,they would find there is a quite big group of modern,educated and pragmatic bunch of second-rank personalities ready to take over .It's only by direct contacts and eye to eye talks that you progress in these countries.
AirTran737 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3662 posts, RR: 13 Reply 13, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 1404 times:
Please accept this token of our esteem for you. She is the pride of her land, and wants to spread California values across the entire World. Soon you will all be wearing Birkenstocks, give up most forms of bathing, chant "burn baby burn" (rather than Death to America", you will also all be using paper grocery bags, not be allowed to spank your children, and finally at least twice a week you will be mandated to go out into a field and sing "Hail the Sunshine" with a group of forty of your closest friends. Enjoy her, we don't need her back.
The other 49 States
Don't worry about the glassy eyed stoned look that she always has, it's just her being so in love with herself that she is unable to concentrate on anything else.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
Par13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 6502 posts, RR: 8 Reply 14, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 1396 times:
I have seen one side of the argument, that force does not work, how about those who support talking to enemies giving us examples of when that has actually worked?
Force started WWI and WWII after talked failed and countries were lost
Vietnam did not start when US troops started fighting, talk took place before
Iraq, talked to Kuwait, did not work, they used force
West talked to Iraq to leave Kuwait, did not work, force was used.
Iraq 2, did war start first or after talk?
North Korea, talk and agreement on nuclear weapons - first time, now into round two
Former Yugoslavia, talked for years while people were "cleansed", then force was used
Problem in my opinion, is commitment by those involved. Libya, as far as I know is the only real
successful stoy so far, where talk seems to have worked. I say that because the gap between military action
and talk was so great, unless, their talk of a nuclear program was just a bluff.
The other reality is that there is a thinking in this world that force cannot resolve any conflict, and they
are literal in that thinking, they have no concept of the term strength and commitment. The "civilized"
society that we know today was built by force, the colonial era and WWII both in our generation. Those
who are benefactors of the use of force are not in any way saying that we should give back what
force gave us.
Beaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25 Reply 15, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 1392 times:
Quoting Par13del (Reply 14): Former Yugoslavia, talked for years while people were "cleansed", then force was used
The international action in the former Yugoslav republics was not a brilliant example of ethnic cleansing prevention-
EU troops (notably the Dutch ) did not move when there were distinct signs of mass-killings.
I am not against force Per Se where it REALLY helps- like stopping ethnic cleansing -
Areas where force should have been applied, but never was ,were the Central-African genocides in Rwanda-Burundi,where an estimated 1.000.000 were killed and useless talking took place in New York ,Brussels and Paris .
There should have been massive military interventions but nobody really cares when it comes to third-rate Africans..
Military action can become useful when nothing else helps -agreed on that.
But in the particular case of Iraq,things are getting worse since the American invasion.Even oponents of Saddam admit,that conditions are much worse now than before.So where is the benefit ???
Again-I am not anti-militay ,neither anti- force.. but I am against imposed and forceful "democracy export" like in the case of Irak,because the bottom line is that the population does not get democracy but even more misery!
Tbar220 From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7011 posts, RR: 27 Reply 16, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 1356 times:
What an absurd thread. Nobody has made a single decent comment about her trip, rather just making childish attacks against her. If you want to act like a child, don't be surprised when people treat you like one...
Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 2): Will she sit on a tank with her legs spread wide open, smiling flirtatously for the Life Magazine photo-op?
Right, its ok to make sexist comments about a female politician, somebody who serves her country and her people. And yet if somebody said something like that about a male politician, or even (gasp) Lord Bush, what would your reaction be?
ANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 17, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 1344 times:
Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 16): Right, its ok to make sexist comments about a female politician,
I guess you missed the whole Hanoi Jane thing JetJack was putting across TBar . . . which is why I left that post in place. It's a comparison between Hanoi Jane the Traitor and Speaker Pelosi. . . .
. . . . . . . . .
As for her trip, fine - let her go. But she needs to remember she is NOT the elected President of this Country and she does NOT speak for this country. She better mind her place. I'm afraid she fails to realize this and it gets worse (between she and Sen. Reid) every day.
Maybe she'll find the WMDs Saddam hid in Syria way back when . . . .
Maybe there'll be some good to come of this trip. What good I can't exactly fathom at the moment. Syria is dangerous. As dangerous as Saudi Arabia. More so in some respects.
Tbar220 From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7011 posts, RR: 27 Reply 20, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 1330 times:
Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 17): I guess you missed the whole Hanoi Jane thing JetJack was putting across TBar . . . which is why I left that post in place. It's a comparison between Hanoi Jane the Traitor and Speaker Pelosi. . . .
I did miss the comparison. However, is it still acceptable to be calling Pelosi a "traitor"? Maybe not directly but through comparison at least...
Par13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 6502 posts, RR: 8 Reply 22, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 1312 times:
To adress the trip, the issue at hand right now is that the US Govt. and the Syrian Govt. are at odds with each other, if the Speaker of The House - a political body within the US electorate - is making a trip to Syria in her official capacity it would only help if she were going as a representative of the President. No need for the Syrians to practice the "divide and conquer" rule, the US is doing it themselves. The democrats may be the opposition, but the Speaker is now more than just an opponent of the President, this is no private citizen like Jane Fonda, the implications and impact among others are not the same, at times you have to look beyond what you might think of something, but how others think about it, as in the long run, its their actions which are the main of concern.
Beaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25 Reply 23, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 1285 times:
The most recent trip of Angela Merkel to the region has brought some fresh air into a stalled situation.
Israel seems to be welcomming a peace-conference with "moderate" arab states including Saudi Arabia,who might agree -that's better than the usual outcome of state visits by Condaleeza..
So any initiative bringing Syria into that round would be highly constructive-and if Pelosi can help to stress to Bashir the perspective of normal bi-latteral relations between Damascus and the rest of the world,it will take away pressure from Lebanon and increase pressure on Iran.It is precisely Pelosi's position as political oponent to Bush that makes her the more attractive to Damascus.
Itsjustme From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 2765 posts, RR: 10 Reply 24, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 1277 times:
I have mixed feelings about Speaker Pelosi talking with Syrian officials. No, I am not a big fan of the current SotH and I think any talks of this nature, regardless of your political affiliation, should be with done with the support of the President. However, given the hatred Syria has for our current CiC, perhaps someone with Ms. Pelosi's status, and one who quite publicly doesn't see eye-to-eye with President Bush and his foreign policies, might be just the person to make some headway with Syria.
25 Falcon84: Address the subject. If you can't stay out. That's because the hard-core righties have no ammo on this one, as I'll show you in a minute. How is she
26 ANCFlyer: I didn't call her a traitor. All I did was clear up TBar's oversight . . . . First . . . Then . . . I never made any remarks regarding Congresswoman
27 Aaron747: Granted, they're not. But someone oughta do the talking when there's nothing but silence emanating from the White House. This elected leader doesn't
28 Beaucaire: Bashir al Assad is still surrounded by a relatively old league of advisers that still think in cold-war theories. He himself is -although not really a
29 Falcon84: Where? In Nome? Personally, to be quite honest, I've been more than mildly surprised iwth Condi as SecState. I don't think she's done a half bad job,
30 Tbar220: When will you realize that after four years of war and no WMD's, that they don't exist? When will you realize that over a decade of sanctions severel
31 ANCFlyer: We haven't check Syria to thoroughly yet . . . .
32 Falcon84: 1. They aren't there. 2. You proposing ANOTHER war? Pep, you're smarter than that. You're not a zelaot of the right. Get with the program. They ARE N
33 Thorben: I think she does the right thing. She shows the Syrians that there are other Americans than Bush and his gang, and she is actually willing to talk to
34 Beaucaire: Israeli politicians are most likely more open to speak to the Syrians than the French, Americans or British.A lot of time has been wasted with the den
35 Thorben: Yes, she is actually trying to build bridges, instead of tearing them down, like Bush does. He claimed she was undermining his foreign policy. I can
36 AeroWesty: From the reports of the trip I've read so far, it looks like Speaker Pelosi's trip has been worthwhile. She's delivered a message from Israel to Syria
37 Thorben: Funny, I had the same thought. Might be worth a try, she can go and maybe things get a little more peaceful over there.