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US 'has To Act' On Climate Report  
User currently offlineOzGlobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2732 posts, RR: 4
Posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 3593 times:

Quote:
BBC:

"European environment leaders have said the US and Australia must alter their stance on climate change, as talks opened in Brussels on a major report.

EU Environment Commissioner Stavros Dimas said a change of the US "negative attitude" to international climate treaties was "absolutely necessary".

The report from the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) will detail projections of climate impacts.

It is expected to forecast problems with supplies of food and water."

I would have thought with the impact of Global Warming in Australia, 'level 5' water restrictions (still defining what that means as things have never been so bad as now after a 10 year drought) that the fool Howard government would smell the coffee? (Oz citizen so no need to flame me).

As for the US administration, I am on record as far back as 2002 as being for 'regime change'!


When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
146 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineHalcyon From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 3582 times:

I think that the whole thing is blown crazily out of proportion. It's a bunch of alarmism in my opinion. Treating the environment is a personal responsibility, IMO, but letting it get you so freaked out is not sound.

Edit: What exactly is our current stance on this issue? I can't really say more without knowing.

[Edited 2007-04-03 01:25:35]

User currently offlineOzGlobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2732 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 3577 times:

Quoting Halcyon (Reply 1):
I think that the whole thing is blown crazily out of proportion. It's a bunch of alarmism in my opinion. Treating the environment is a personal responsibility, IMO, but letting it get you so freaked out is not sound.

Call back when you are no longer allowed to water plants, lawn, fill your swimming pool, wash your car and they start rationing your personal showers and we'll talk. (Already happening in parts of Oz).

Quoting Halcyon (Reply 1):
What exactly is our current stance on this issue? I can't really say more without knowing.

How can you judge it alarmist when you don't even know your own country's position. It is ignorance that will be our undoing before all else.

[Edited 2007-04-03 01:58:11]


When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21521 posts, RR: 53
Reply 3, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 3573 times:

Quoting Halcyon (Reply 1):
Treating the environment is a personal responsibility, IMO, but letting it get you so freaked out is not sound.

Since you've missed the bus on the former several years ago, you're rapidly approaching the point where "freaking out" would be perfectly appropriate.

Quoting Halcyon (Reply 1):
Edit: What exactly is our current stance on this issue? I can't really say more without knowing.

The Bush administration still acts as if no meaningful action was necessary at all.

And the US Supreme Court has just now dealt a healthy slap in the administration's face, basically calling them irresponsibly complacent:

Split court rules against Bush on greenhouse gases - CNN.com


User currently offlineHalcyon From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3560 times:

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 2):
How can you judge it alarmist when you don't even know your own country's position. It is ignorance that will be our undoing before all else.

The stance is not alarmist, but getting in a tizzy when there is relatively little change is.

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 2):
Call back when you are no longer allowed to water plants, lawn, fill your swimming pool, wash your car and they start rationing your personal showers and we'll talk.

Sounds like a personal problem.  duck  My family has our own water source in MT, and here in Arizona we're doing fine. Sorry to hear about your drought.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 3):

Since you've missed the bus on the former several years ago,

My country? What should we do? What do I need to do as an individual?

Quoting Klaus (Reply 3):
meaningful action

What is meaningful action? Just curious, not "freaking out."


User currently offlineOzGlobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2732 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3554 times:

Quoting Halcyon (Reply 4):
The stance is not alarmist, but getting in a tizzy when there is relatively little change is.

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 2):
Call back when you are no longer allowed to water plants, lawn, fill your swimming pool, wash your car and they start rationing your personal showers and we'll talk.

Sounds like a personal problem. duck My family has our own water source in MT, and here in Arizona we're doing fine. Sorry to hear about your drought.

Here's the rub, Halcyon: Our problems are ( in a real sense partly) your doing.... So don't tell me you're doing fine.

You don't have your own water source, you're part of a wholly interdependent climatic system on the planet.
What is going around will most assuredly come around.

Get it?



When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
User currently offlineRJdxer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3555 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 3):
And the US Supreme Court has just now dealt a healthy slap in the administration's face, basically calling them irresponsibly complacent:

Really?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070402/...;_ylt=AqJC.wcq9CZ8bPHegoDNJsqs0NUE

The court had three questions before it.

_Do states have the right to sue the EPA to challenge its decision?

_Does the Clean Air Act give EPA the authority to regulate tailpipe emissions of greenhouse gases?

_Does EPA have the discretion not to regulate those emissions?

The court said yes to the first two questions. On the third, it ordered EPA to re-evaluate its contention it has the discretion not to regulate tailpipe emissions. The court said the agency has so far provided a "laundry list" of reasons that include foreign policy considerations.

The majority said the agency must tie its rationale more closely to the Clean Air Act.


States have always had the right to challange the federal government, that is in the Constitution. The Federal Government has the right to regulate interstate commerce, that is in the Constitution. No where in the Constitution does it say it "has to" which is why the SC deferred on a direct ruling on the third question. The term Phyric Victory comes immediately to mind.

I have yet to be more amazed at pollution than my visit to Beijing a couple of years ago. Hardly any of the vehicles in use there would pass a tailpipe test here in the states. When I see them doing something to curb their emmisions then I'll start to wonder why we are not doing something more about ours. I have not been to India but I would not be surprised to find the same conditions there.

Once the again the left has chosen to try and obtain something by judicial fiat when it has become blatantly apparent that they cannot obtain what they want at the ballot box.


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21521 posts, RR: 53
Reply 7, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3549 times:

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 6):
When I see them doing something to curb their emmisions then I'll start to wonder why we are not doing something more about ours.

That is true leadership... waiting for the last straggler to pass you by...!  crazy 

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 6):
Once the again the left has chosen to try and obtain something by judicial fiat when it has become blatantly apparent that they cannot obtain what they want at the ballot box.

Iraq has certainly shown that the US electorate is always right, hasn't it?  Yeah sure


User currently offlineOzGlobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2732 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3551 times:

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 6):

I have yet to be more amazed at pollution than my visit to Beijing a couple of years ago. Hardly any of the vehicles in use there would pass a tailpipe test here in the states. When I see them doing something to curb their emmisions then I'll start to wonder why we are not doing something more about ours. I have not been to India but I would not be surprised to find the same conditions there.

 crazy   crazy 

So London is burning, but I wont put out the fire in my street unless the other neighbourhoods do so first? I guess that's taking the moral high ground then.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 6):
Once the again the left has chosen to try and obtain something by judicial fiat when it has become blatantly apparent that they cannot obtain what they want at the ballot box.

The electorate in what passes for a democracy today do not have the information or the focus to form timely policy on all topics; Have you noticed? Therefore, occasionally, elected representatives introduce legislation to bring about necessary change. It's called 'political leadership'.

Let's talk again when London, NY and LA are under 30ft of water shall we? At least then you'll be sure the connection with human activities has been adequately substantiated.



When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17824 posts, RR: 46
Reply 9, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 3527 times:

Quoting OzGlobal (Thread starter):
European environment leaders have said the US and Australia must alter their stance on climate change, as talks opened in Brussels on a major report.

That's nice. I think the EU should lower their agricultural subsidies. I'm sure they'll consider my opinion with as much regard as I entertain theirs Silly.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineHalcyon From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 3526 times:

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 5):
Get it?

Better get you some water fast, you're getting grumpy. Here's the thing: climates change. It's happened before and it'll happen again. I suppose you would have really had a fit if you lived in the great Plains in, oh, say the 1930s.

Now if someone would answer my questions instead of telling em I'm the problem, perhaps this might get somewhere. So far all I've seen is vague gloom and doom without solutions.

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 5):
You don't have your own water source, you're part of a wholly interdependent climatic system on the planet.

As it happens, the area where I live currently is doing fairly well, and seems to be shielded from what you're experiencing. Sure, that could change eventually, but so will everything.

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 8):

Let's talk again when London, NY and LA are under 30ft of water shall we? At least then you'll be sure the connection with human activities has been adequately substantiated.

As RJdxer points out, the practices that we're using are a lot better than those in many places currently. What do you want us to do to be better? For the record, I don't think that NYC will be 30 feet underwater anytime soon.


User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 3513 times:

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 2):
Call back when you are no longer allowed to water plants, lawn, fill your swimming pool, wash your car and they start rationing your personal showers and we'll talk. (Already happening in parts of Oz).

So you are talking about every year in Texas from about March until October. Been that way as far as I can remember.


User currently offlineRJdxer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 3510 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 7):
That is true leadership...



Quoting Klaus (Reply 7):
Iraq has certainly shown that the US electorate is always right, hasn't it?

Well since we're damned if we do and damned if we don't, I guess you've rendered your opinion of us meaningless.

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 8):
I guess that's taking the moral high ground then.

We're already on the moral high ground in comparision to China, India, Russia, and a whole host of third world countries.

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 8):
Let's talk again when London, NY and LA are under 30ft of water shall we?

I have a feeling that will be in another life, unless of course a meteor strikes the Antartic or Greenland. Even then you'll have to convince me that it was actually man and not some other source that caused the change. So far all I have seen is a concentration of what man is doing to the almost total exclusion of any other source.


User currently offlineMaidensGator From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 945 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 3505 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 7):

Iraq has certainly shown that the US electorate is always right, hasn't it?

Count on you to bring up Iraq when it has absolutely no connection to the subject....

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 8):
Let's talk again when London, NY and LA are under 30ft of water shall we? At least then you'll be sure the connection with human activities has been adequately substantiated.

It's this kind of statement, bordering on hysterical, that makes you lose credibility. Post a reliable source that says NYC or London or LA will be under water in any of our lifetimes...

Quoting Halcyon (Reply 10):
For the record, I don't think that NYC will be 30 feet underwater anytime soon.

 checkmark 



The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers.
User currently offlineSpringbok747 From Australia, joined Nov 2004, 4387 posts, RR: 10
Reply 14, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 3504 times:

The Earth is screwed whether we act now or not...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v644/Springbok747/GlobalWhiningStop.jpg



אני תומך בישראל
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21521 posts, RR: 53
Reply 15, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 3495 times:

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 12):
Well since we're damned if we do and damned if we don't, I guess you've rendered your opinion of us meaningless.

There is a big difference between leading others into or out of a disaster!

But every excuse for doing nothing will suffice, won't it?  Yeah sure

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 12):
We're already on the moral high ground in comparision to China, India, Russia, and a whole host of third world countries

No, you're not. China, India and most of the third world are very acutely aware of the dangers they face due to climate change - for many of them it is a matter of physical life and death - and that includes China, among others.

Their capabilities to engage in the solution are of course much smaller than those of the fully developed countries, so they have a difficult time entering into firm commitments.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 12):
I have a feeling that will be in another life, unless of course a meteor strikes the Antartic or Greenland.

Both Greenland and the Antarctic exhibit significant symptoms of climate change even now - if especially the main antarctic ice shields should reach their respective tipping points, the coastal cities would indeed be severely in trouble.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 12):
Even then you'll have to convince me that it was actually man and not some other source that caused the change. So far all I have seen is a concentration of what man is doing to the almost total exclusion of any

Because in the news tailored to gnat-like attention spans the wider background usually gets stripped off and only the "most interesting" aspects remain.

Quoting MaidensGator (Reply 13):
Count on you to bring up Iraq when it has absolutely no connection to the subject....

When the wisdom of the US electorate is being put into the witness stand, you'll have to live with such reminders for at least a few more decades.


User currently offlineVHVXB From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 5525 posts, RR: 18
Reply 16, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3484 times:

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 11):
So you are talking about every year in Texas from about March until October. Been that way as far as I can remember.

So you get constant rainfall from Nov. to Feb?? The difference between Texas and Australia is that the entire country is in drought not just a single state


User currently offlineGalapagapop From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 910 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3480 times:

This approach taken by the EU towards the top down, is not going to solve a single thing, Global warming has to start from the ground up. Go after the REAL polluters. We may have SUV's and lots and lots of factories, but they are held to a standard, this standard doesn't exist in lots of the world. I have no problem curbing engery use as a whole (not just shifting to renewable resources), but it's dumb to reliquish the market pressure currently faced on oil and coal through political means without capping the bottow end as well. It's simple economics, as the price of everything goes up from moving to newer resources, the prices of the polluting commodities goes down, and countries that haven't been tackled by the EU and others will simply feed off this basically subsidised energy and use it without even the US's lowest standards of emissions. I'm well aware of problems presented to some countries in moving to new energy sources, some countries we will be telling to not use their natural resources (oil) as a means of making some headway (or maybe just starting more trouble), but Global Warming is merely sensationalist still, all science and opinion says CO2, but what about Water Vapor? It makes up more of the greenhouse gas effect, but why aren't we chasing that? It's convient that CO2 was chosen as coal and Oil release the most CO2 when used than anything else, and as well know some just have a huge vendetta against oil companies, that 10% margin of profit is the marks of the devil you know........

User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21521 posts, RR: 53
Reply 18, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3471 times:

Quoting Galapagapop (Reply 17):
but it's dumb to reliquish the market pressure currently faced on oil and coal through political means without capping the bottow end as well. It's simple economics, as the price of everything goes up from moving to newer resources, the prices of the polluting commodities goes down, and countries that haven't been tackled by the EU and others will simply feed off this basically subsidised energy and use it without even the US's lowest standards of emissions.

What are you talking about?

Your "standards" are worth exactly nothing if they still lead to a massively higher average consumption and exhaust production.

Have you ever compared the kinds of cars being driven elsewhere? Recently checked any european gas station for "subsidized" fuel prices? You'd be in for a major shock, I'm afraid.  crazy 

Quoting Galapagapop (Reply 17):
but what about Water Vapor?

It's a factor (whose exact impact or even net direction is not yet understood with great precision), but it is not a byproduct of man-made processes nearly at the extent of CO2.


User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3470 times:

Quoting VHVXB (Reply 16):
So you get constant rainfall from Nov. to Feb??

We wish. More like two days of rain. Mind you, it's enough to fill the lakes back up to the tops.. but it all comes in about two days. Three if we get lucky.


User currently offlineRJdxer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3458 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 15):
There is a big difference between leading others into or out of a disaster!

I repeat, as you did, we are damned if we do and damned if we don't. No matter what course we choose, save abject surrender of our soveriegnty, is not going to be good enough for someone. So we should just go our own way. How about if your country tries leading for awhile? We'll support you as you have supported us. That's fair right?

Quoting Klaus (Reply 15):
Their capabilities to engage in the solution are of course much smaller than those of the fully developed countries, so they have a difficult time entering into firm commitments.

Excuses excuses yet the U.S. has none.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 15):
should, would

The key words in your statement.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 15):
Because in the news tailored

And of course anyone who would dare question the science is automatically treated to name calling and ridicule.

Quoting VHVXB (Reply 16):
The difference between Texas and Australia is that the entire country is in drought not just a single state

Isn't the majority of Australia a desert to begin with?


User currently offlineYWG From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 1147 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3455 times:

Quoting Galapagapop (Reply 17):
Go after the REAL polluters



Quoting Galapagapop (Reply 17):
We may have SUV's and lots and lots of factories, but they are held to a standard, this standard doesn't exist in lots of the world

Sadly there is no need for the same standards in third world countries who infact make these vehicles because they cannot afford to buy them.

I've been doing a lot of sociological research into this issue, and recently wrote this article which puts everything in it's place.

To put it into a basic idea, humanity is slowly destroying the Earth while we use up all of its resources. Sustainability is really the key issue we must look at when investigating man kind’s current role on this planet. Our marine environments are slowly being destroyed and over fished while everyday less and less fish swim in their waters. A big concern here is how we are interrupting their food chain in a drastic way. An example is that of the Urchin and Sea Otter. The Otter was over hunted and thus went the Urchins predator and with that came an explosion in their population. Now because there are most Urchins, there is a new need for more Duck Weed to feed them and came a decline in the Duck Weed of that part of the Ocean and you can see how it just continues to affect everyone down the line. Food, fiber and timber are also another important issue to address. The amount we are consuming for our ever growing homes and extravagant meals is coming very close to hitting an ecological wall. We are eating way to high in the food chain way to often to justify our needs. The amount of grain calories in order to make one kilogram of meet is just astronomical when we could have just consumed the grain, once again you can see why we should begin to think about sustainability. Lastly we must look at the water we are using. Less than one percent of the water we use is renewable. The water we waste and have to re-purify is a huge waste of energy. As well, we tend to pollute a lot of the water that surrounds us, making it unusable. Lastly with our increased consumption, comes the fact that we must draw more water from ever shallowing water sources to grow and feed our future food. Our population is growing on what can only be described as an exponential curve of disaster. Carrying capacity is the total number of individuals a given environment can sustainably support. In this case the environment is Earth, and we have yet to hit the ceiling yet, but the main issue here is we don’t seem to be concerned. Governments really need to unite and start thinking of ways to control their populations. If nothing is done, there will come a point when our worldwide population will hit capacity and most likely overshoot it as well. With this overshoot will come a few years of dwindling resources and what we refer to as dieback. Sadly this is the point where millions begin to die due to lack of resources, primarily in the poorer nations first, until Earth levels off at her carrying capacity. It’s something that really is not being taken seriously by enough governments at this point. Take for example The Republic of China, which limits their families to only having one child. At first I thought this was a ridiculous idea, but as I researched and dove more into the topic of carrying capacity and overpopulation, it made perfect sense. We as a species are using way too much of what the Earth has to offer. The sun is indirectly the largest contributor to biomass on Earth, and humans are using well over 50% of the available biomass. With that being said, what about the millions of other species on this planet? This is a main reason why three species go extinct a day. Another way to look at the distribution of resources worldwide is to look at our ecological footprint. Simply defined, it is the amount of land (in hectares) that one person would need to live their current life off of (food, cattle, water etc). The equation I=P x A x T (where I=ecological footprint, P=Affluence, A=Consumption per capita, and T=technological level) gives us an idea of where we stand in comparison to the rest of the world. I believe that North American’s footprint is equal to 60 African’s footprints, which is just an alarming number. Not only is this highly unequal, but the only reason why it is like this is because North America is a wealthier part of the world. This is not right, and the distribution of resources should be carefully thought out and spread fairly around the world. The fact that we are using up more and more non-renewable resources by the day when in the big picture of things we’re really not doing a lot of planning for the future and alternatives is just plain out absent minded.
The idea of ecological debt can be explained best in terms of money. Take for example $1000 (“The Earth”) in a bank account earning interest (“sustainable resources”). Now if we start spending past our interest into our capital, the next interest period will be less, and if you continue on this path you eventually will end off with no money left. The same can be said about our earth and the amount of renewable resources we use every year. Say if we cut down more trees in one year than the Earth can produce to cover that number, we are cutting into the capital of the Earth. Right now our population is working on 1.2 Earths, so we’re using .2 of our capital at this point, and we’re slowly eating away at our planet. Ecological debt is the idea that we must reduce the amount of resources we use in order to get our Earth back to her original “capital” and is measured in Planet Years. There are fourth paths that are listed in the Living Planet Report of 2004. The Slow Growth path really only slows us down a bit, or what will hopefully be enough time for us to realize that we must adopt one of the following three reduction phases or how to fix this problem with science and technology. If we were to allow this path to take place, we would hit around 40 planet years around 2050 with the continuation of debt ongoing. The second reduction idea is the 50% one. Projections show that we would reduce our footprint by 2030 with a total ecological debt of only 3.5 planet years. The third reduction would be the 67% idea, which would have our footprint level off around the year 2050 with a debt of 6 planet years. Lastly, the 88% idea forecasts that we would be leveling off our footprint at around 2100 with a debt of 20 planet years. The best answer to our problem is the 50% path in the ways of the most drastic action. This is easier said then done. Reducing any of our current ways would mean drastic shifts in the global economy. For example, our desire of exotic fruits and vegetables employees’ thousands of farmers, processors, truck drivers, pilots and grocery store employees which most of the time start off on the other side of the world. If we were to reduce the amount of automobiles we purchase and use, you can already see the decline in the oil market and automobile production plants. Thousands of skilled workers would be out of jobs, and would require training to fill the new void of employment with our new look on life. You can start to see how it is almost nearly impossible to get this done with most of today’s democratic governments. If earth is to survive we must protect our remaining ecosystems so that they may flourish, lower our total world population, reduce our ecological footprint and streamline the efficiency of our goods and services sector.
The issues of population size and levels of consumption really run hand in hand in our struggle to gain control of our world. To start off, the global population is growing at a staggering exponential rate and without a doubt will hit the carrying capacity of Earth. It is a proven scientific fact that the Earth can only support a certain number of people and to continue our current growth patterns is absurd. The Voluntary Human Extinction Movement is a group of individuals who basically want the human race to simple stop reproducing and to fizzle out of the world. This in fact would save millions of species from extinction caused by our greedy ways as a dominating species. Why anyone would want to do this certainly raises the question of sanity, but scientifically it would be the most intelligent way of action. To convince the entire world about their cause would simply be impossible with all of today’s religions and followings so we must look for alternatives. I believe in order to reduce our numbers we must find a way to limit the amount of kids we have, a lot like what China did. Child credits which could be sold exchanged would definitely bring our population under control in a civilized way. We must bring ourselves to understand that the days of having 2 or 3 child families are over. We seem to be getting a grip on reducing our levels of consumption, as we have seen with the introduction of various hybrid automobiles and the exploration of alternative energy forms. Many cities now have recycling programs which save millions of hectares of ecological footprints a year. While we are on a good path to success, it is only the beginning. We have to reduce the amount of high food chain items we consume and where they come from. Water is also a huge factor in this struggle. No one leads the pack in water conservation more than the city of Las Vegas. Not only are they in the middle of a desert and use a lot of water just to stay alive but they also have one of the strictest water bi-law systems in the world. The hotels with their extravagant fountains use recycled gray water rather than fresh water that will just be wasted through evaporation under the Nevada sun. On top of that, the residence of the city must adhere to various laws, which include not watering your lawn in the middle of the day, not having private fountains in your yard and making sure none of your pipes are leaking. Yet again we see another step in the right direct of conservation. We need to get the entire world on with us though, resources don’t adhere to boundaries and thus it’s all for one and one for all. So once we get our population growth under control we have to look at ways to conserve energy and become more local rather than international. The idea of Ecocities is amazing. Ecocities with only foot and bicycle traffic eliminates the need for most automobiles and the need for oil which produces millions of tons of pollution including carbon a year. This would also free up a lot more farm land to grow things locally that surround the city which in turn wouldn’t require a lot of energy to get to our dinner tables. So really the key thing at this point in our declining world is education. We need to educate the public rather than have a few select groups lobbying the governments for change and what not. Concerning population size, we really need to have some drastic government intervention without all of this voting and process garbage that would takes years and hit many economical road blocks. Because as mentioned above, the Earth is doomed if we don’t do anything. The idea that “technology will save us” is only a dream of many politicians and something must be done within the next upcoming generation of people or else we are finished.

YWG



The Living Planet Report 2004
http://assets.panda.org/downloads/lpr2004.pdf



Contact Winnipeg center now on 134.4, good day.
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8976 posts, RR: 39
Reply 22, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3457 times:

http://www.junkscience.com/Greenhouse/irradiance.gif

Why doesn't this get the same press that the graph showing CO2 following temperature change does?

[Edited 2007-04-03 04:40:29]


"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineHalcyon From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 3446 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 22):

Why doesn't this get the same press that the CO2 graph following temperature change does?

Because you can't make taxes on travel due to the sun? Because you can't get elected that way? I don't know. Mainly because it's not what's currently acceptable, I think. People like to follow the crowds.


User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 3440 times:

Quoting YWG (Reply 21):
I believe that North American's footprint is equal to 60 African's footprints, which is just an alarming number. Not only is this highly unequal, but the only reason why it is like this is because North America is a wealthier part of the world. This is not right, and the distribution of resources should be carefully thought out and spread fairly around the world.

If you stare long enough at the word flood you eventually find the socialist drivel underpinnings.


25 Galapagapop : European gas is far from subsidized, but the US has benefited from your taxing on your fuels, due to EU having lower consumption levels the US receiv
26 VHVXB : Yes but people on live in coastal areas are affected as well well its better than what we get which is nothing at all weeks on end
27 Post contains links OzGlobal : We are constantly told by the US about its leadership role in the world. For various historical reasons, at this point, the US does have the potentia
28 Disruptivehair : Rubbish. I grew up in Texas and cannot recall any water restrictions that were that draconian. Even with last year's drought the people I know back h
29 OzGlobal : How much time have you spent in Australia. Have you any idea how silly this sounds? An American living last six years in UK/EU. Yes, would be tough.
30 Disruptivehair : Why don't you just answer the question? After six years of hearing the above, it's hard not to. What *I* think never means a damn thing to Europeans.
31 OzGlobal : OK. i) Whilst a large percentage of Oz is arid or semi arid, areas the size of Western Europe or the eastern states of the US are quite fertile and i
32 Disruptivehair : No, I won't recall that; in fact I've never heard the freestyle referred to as the 'Australian Crawl.' Perhaps I'm not old enough. From what I've rea
33 UAXDXer : And what exactly is Germany doing to stop global warming? I sure hope you can save us here in the states too!
34 OzGlobal : Because in the current gist of your post, it would make you guilty of the behaviour you are condemning. i) How did you classify me as "left of centre
35 Disruptivehair : No, it wouldn't; I don't have and never have had a swimming pool. Your remarks. Yes, I'm an American expat and I know many other American expats. I u
36 Disruptivehair : So am I. I came here with high hopes.
37 DeltaGator : As someone who spent over a month in Oz this year and dealt with tons of rain the entire time I was there in Brisbane and Sydney I just have to ask o
38 VHVXB : I do remember you saying this and it did rain a lot but nothing over the catchment area. So the dry and green side is completely irrelevant in this s
39 767Lover : I'm glad the EPA will be setting new standards for car emissions. I envision that what will happen in the short term is driving restrictions. We will
40 Disruptivehair : Three Mile Island still sticks in peoples' minds, along with Chernobyl. I think it's short-sighted myself; the French are close to achieving energy i
41 DeltaGator : Their placement is not irrelevant. Common sense would dictate that you put the reservoirs somewhere that they can catch rainfall. If you put them in
42 BHXFAOTIPYYC : So is Oz building desalination plants or what are they doing about it? About 3 summers ago, we were nearly out of water down here in the Algarve (sout
43 VHVXB : yes this well setup in rural/regional areas but there is no rain. Like I said before there was no rain over the catchment area
44 Post contains images RJdxer : If you live in the U.S. for any length of time you learn that everybody wants a handout and everyone is looking to take this country down a peg or tw
45 Post contains images Disruptivehair : I'm told the Spanish do; I haven't heard what the Portuguese think. We don't get a lot of them up here in the UK.
46 767Lover : Ok. Thanks for clarifying.
47 OzGlobal : i) Lived in the US for several years. Where have you lived outside the US? ii) I don't recall my recent countries of residence/origin asking for or g
48 Post contains links CastleIsland : That is correct, but the NY Times article (registration required): http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/03/washington/03scotus.html?th&emc=th states: "The
49 RJdxer : Don't have to have lived anywhere outside the U.S. to understand that some countries want to do nothing more than try and take advantage of us to the
50 767Lover : Oil companies are all for it. Big revenue generating opportunity, better shareholder value, etc. and bragging rights. Problem is that consumers won't
51 767Lover : Let me clarify that when I say they are all for it I am referring to the development of fuel alternatives, not tighter regulation.
52 Post contains links and images PPVRA : http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6505127.stm According to the article above, even running out of Oil would ruin the environment. So guys, don
53 David L : No, the real science has been butchered by people with political and financial agendas. I agree with your point but, strictly speaking, it's those wh
54 Post contains images David L : Oops, sorry, Halcyon, I meant to include your reply to PPVRA in my post above. The "Bingo" was directed at both of your comments.
55 Post contains images Halcyon : Professor Syun-Ichi Akasofu, the Director of the IARC, says that this is not true. And he's an expert in his field. Thank you, and that post was exce
56 OzGlobal : And a hundred other experts say that it is in the intergovernmental study. You will always find some diversity of scientific opinion on any given top
57 Post contains images Halcyon : I knew it off the top of my head. How many times have you been open to different opinions? How many of these scientists are actually experts in their
58 CastleIsland : Understood, and editorializing or not, given the current make-up of Congress, EPA action on this sort of thing appears likely. Trust me, as our large
59 MaidensGator : But how long do they say it will take? I asked you before to post any reliable source that states this will happen in any of our lifetime...
60 RJdxer : Whether this suit had had any success a democrat in the WH in 2008 means more money will flow from the individual to the coffers of the U.S. Treasuar
61 David L : That IPCC report includes non-scientists, such as reviewers and administrators, in its list of "2500 scientists who agree". It also includes scientis
62 Mham001 : I'm not understanding why China, expected to become the world's largest producer of CO2 this year, is held exempt from any concerns? They are producin
63 Post contains links BarfBag : All 4-wheeler passenger transport in India must comply with a minimum of Bharat II emission standard (equivalent to Euro II). In the 10-15 major citi
64 Post contains images David L : It was very late last night so I just got the main points out in my last post and didn't thank you. Believe me, it was hardly any effort at all - thi
65 767Lover : It's like "fighting crime" or "improving education" as a political platform...the whole global warming issue has become an opportunity for politician
66 Post contains images David L : And the problem is even worse now as all political parties jump on the bandwagon. They have to "outgreen" each other with more and more extreme, and
67 767Lover : Oh. I would disagree. The more people, the more housing/food/goods needed, the more electricity burned, the more cars, bigger cars to haul bigger fam
68 David L : Not at anything like the current population level. There will be local pollution where a factory's speweing out fumes or pouring waste into a river.
69 BarfBag : I don't recall mentioning global warming in my previous post in the first place. I dealt exclusively with the question of pollution, and answered a q
70 Post contains links and images RJdxer : I'll wait for the day I see these held to some sort of pollution standard. But you'll excuse me if I don't hold my breathe waiting for it to happen.
71 BarfBag : RXdjer: I have no intention of getting into a torn shirt open fly argument with you. The assertion is that India pollutes and will continue to pollute
72 L.1011 : I must say that most of the Americans in this thread are not reflecting well upon our country to the world. At this point, questioning global warming
73 OzGlobal : L.1011, Welcome to my respected users list....
74 RJdxer : Spoken as a child. Science exists to question science, so that statement has no validity. Which do you think there are more of in the world, those ve
75 Pbottenb : " target=_blank>http://assets.panda.org/downloads/lp...4.pdf This must have been the longest post in the history of a.net. Do you really think that yo
76 Post contains images MaidensGator : In all fairness, it was only 1,945 words, and he did split it into two paragraphs to make it read easier.... Very true. Similar to the warning of imm
77 Post contains images L.1011 : Ewww, a French respected user list? Just kidding. Way to dodge the issue... Of course it does. Where exactly is the questioning science? Just as no o
78 Post contains links RJdxer : As stated above, if it falls outside of a very narrow line, that being it's all mans fault, it's suppressed and ridiculed. William F Buckley JR had i
79 767Lover : Yes, it is: Hmmm.
80 Post contains images David L : I was just just pre-empting others from making the accusation. No, at this point the manmade global warming propaganda is like questioning evolution
81 RJdxer : David L has been added to your repsected user list.
82 Post contains images David L : Thank you so much - Halcyon, too. However, I'm doing this for me because I'm getting really peed off by it. I've been a member here since 1999 and bu
83 767Lover : Ah. Okay. I see your point -- I was thinking "environmental impact" not specifically "climate" (even though that's what the thread title states -- my
84 Post contains images David L : I've just watched The Great Global Warming Swindle again and it occurred to me that I may have been putting too much effort into detailing the scienti
85 L.1011 : I think we'd all like to see this alleged science. From real scientists, not the Competitive Enterprise Institute or William F. Buckley Jr. No one is
86 RJdxer : I'd like to see the science too. But when I read that the latest warning contains the signatures of: Then to me it seems as if they are just inflatin
87 L.1011 : Agreed. Science that isn't conducted to the highest standards shouldn't be considered science. But it's not as though this is the only scientific rep
88 RJdxer : Unfortunately the Sun and those planets distances from it contradict your assumption. And just think, man has never visited Venus. By today's standar
89 Post contains images David L : L.1011 - find The Great Global Warming Swindle on YouTube and address the fundamental flaws. It contains views from scientists with the highest credib
90 Post contains links and images Allstarflyer : Dude, you're good. Yeah, you fight the good fight . Are you sure you sat out long enough? With electricity? From this (just one, I know) link http://
91 767Lover : Yes, I saw your whole quote. It was: My earlier comment stands. As for leadership, it is not as simple as all that. Example: Leaders enacted Clean Ai
92 Post contains links DLPMMM : Just as a final note, scientists recently announced a significant global warming trend...... ON MARS! http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...s/2007/0
93 Post contains links PPVRA : It's no longer available on YouTube.com because of a copyright claim. Watch it on google video: http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...eat+globa%3B+wa
94 David L : " target=_blank>http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...hl=en Thanks for that. As far as I'm concerned, watching that and considering the scientific is
95 Post contains links L.1011 : Arriving at modern scientific standards is not a process characterized by gradual, cumulative change. The scientific method was essentially developed
96 Post contains links and images PPVRA : When warmed, oceans produce more CO2. Wrong. Higher CO2 concentrations DO NOT yield higher temperatures. Look at the graph. Temperature peaks first,
97 767Lover : I read the three links you posted but I didn't see any "shenanigans" on the part of the U.S. One article implied that the US delegation sort of "refe
98 Post contains images David L : Proof positive that you haven't even looked at the science. " target=_blank>http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepu....html It's more of the same and I
99 Post contains links RJdxer : I'm quite sure that they said that back in middle ages as well. And they were used as examples of that. What you aren't taking into account are evolu
100 L.1011 : Agreed. Kyoto is a very bad excecution of a very good idea. I know plenty about the War of 1812, doesn't mean I remember it. I think your signature s
101 Allstarflyer : You're right, you did say that. But you also said this before that. So, how do you get off saying this . . . . . . when you mention wanting a Suburba
102 Post contains images David L : That's It? That's your scientific assessment of the issue? Perhaps my signature should read: "Stop fumbling in the dark and telling lies and look at
103 Post contains images Lehpron : Maybe if Oil companies bit a bullet a researched more of their own investment such that consumers won't have to pay so much...it is possible just pus
104 PPVRA : Thing is, they haven't even looked at the animal. They are doomed to starve out of fear. I am all for protecting the environment. But there is no evi
105 Joni : This is certainly not true, as the overwhelming balance of evidence suggests the opposite - as you must know. You're defining the "real science" in a
106 Post contains links and images Halcyon : Several have, and have been fired. I'm sure if you read the whole thread you'll find links to the articles and even videos. However, Joni, a lot of r
107 Post contains images David L : Here we go again. For the benefit of those who haven't seen Joni's tactics before... neither is he yet he feels he is somehow qualified to comment on
108 PPVRA : This is what I wrote on another thread: You can suggest that CO2 will affect earth climate in the future, but you can't support that with evidence fr
109 Post contains links RJdxer : Hope this guy has his flame suit on because the globe will definitely start to get warm for him. Big Al doesn't like it when you question him. http://
110 David L : No doubt that will be dismissed as someone betraying a lifetime of experience just to get a dig at someone for personal reasons. The big problem is t
111 Post contains links Joni : So where is this evidence, and why hasn't it convinced the majority of scientists? The "sceptics" seem to think there's some kind of conspiracy to cr
112 Post contains images Halcyon : Whoo! 10,000 USD and some other benefits! That's be out the window in a second...or four transoceanic flights later. What's better, 10,000 or your jo
113 Galapagapop : Wow that was conviently explained, wait we've proven the first 800 years weren't caused by CO2, but conviently we know the next 4200 years were drive
114 RJdxer : Perhaps because "dramatically lower emissions" mean they still sell gas and can make even more money by buying into the agri end of the business as w
115 Post contains images PPVRA : And Joni, what's with the dramatically conservative approach to the subject? " target=_blank>http://www.realclimate.org/index.php?p=13 Again, looking
116 Post contains links and images Galapagapop : Remember it's gotta look like this before anyone will want to notice:
117 Post contains images David L : So do I - big deal. Who mentioned scientists? I was talking about "climate experts", such as environmental journalists, politicians, UN/IPCC officers
118 Joni : Perhaps that's because the comment I was responding to didn't contain any information. Again, what's your point? This is perhaps the way you respond
119 Post contains images Halcyon : Now you seem to be very dismissive, and it's because you didn't like what you saw. You have shown that you're not open minded at all really, so it's
120 Galapagapop : Of coarse a person who actually believes in such drivel would quote me out of complete context, next time I'll just put ect or ..... seeing as your o
121 Post contains links and images PPVRA : http://www.climatecrisiscoalition.org/images/CO2_and_Temp2.gif The first graph shows how current temperature levels have not propotionaly followed CO
122 Post contains images David L : Oops - OK, I misread. I do have a BSc in Physics, however. Strathclyde University, 1990. My masters was in another field. If I say I doubt you even p
123 RJdxer : Yes it did but you obviously have no logical answer to why scientist that present an opposing view of the lefts are somehow instantly branded schill
124 PPVRA : whoops. . . no it doesn't. The 1800AD is CO2. have been looking at too many graphs today. I'll look for another one. . .[Edited 2007-04-09 04:35:48]
125 Post contains links Joni : I admit I'm a bit dismissive here, but it's simply because I've heard these points many times before and today they don't contain much new material.
126 Post contains images Allstarflyer : Like said previously. Difficult to recognize the reports of the IPCC when several members - scientists - of that panel refused to recognize the final
127 RJdxer : There are a tremendous amount of "ifs" "coulds" in that report. Again they cite years on record, which equals about 130 years out of how many million
128 Joni : Some scientists were indeed frustrated by attempts from the oil-producing countries (and the US) to water down the summaries-for-policymakers. AFAIK
129 Allstarflyer : Nice slant, Joni. And my brother, from whom I received the information concerning the faulty IPCC reports, has a doctorate in mathematics and teaches
130 Post contains images David L : Now I know you're just yanking everyone's chain. You keep saying there is no scientific objection! Many even question the existence of such oppositio
131 Joni : Perhaps I should exchange these messages with him then? Again, is your source for this the TV program you're advertising here? If you're willing to b
132 Post contains links and images Allstarflyer : Some of the arguments for global warming are just blantantly ridiculous. This article keeps harping on the fact that the Amazon rain forest can handle
133 Allstarflyer : With your inability and/or unwillingness to listen here, his efforts would go even farther over your head. -R
134 Allstarflyer : I'm willing to believe that the "science academies" are conflicted with themselves, and your unwillingness to address that undermines the foundation
135 Post contains images David L : Ah yes, the old "saviour" technique. There were some Mormons at the door the other day - they told me the same thing. Who asked for your "help"? You
136 Post contains links Joni : I'm not quite sure what you mean by this, but judging by the way you place science academies in quotation marks you may not know yourself. Good to he
137 Travelin man : Whenever people begin going on about global warming, I always wonder: What caused global warming (and cooling) before humans arrived on scene? After a
138 Post contains links and images Allstarflyer : Had you been more attentive, you would have realized that the quotation marks were simply referencing your remarks from reply 131. Aside from our bit
139 Post contains links PPVRA : Oh, and let's not forget the SKY experiment. The cosmic rays and cloud formation connection, which had been blindly dismissed by man-made GW believers
140 Post contains images David L : ... doomed to wander as lost souls for all eternity. And yet dissenters are having to put a lot of effort into simply proving that the debate is not
141 Post contains links and images Joni : Cosmic rays are not blindly dismissed, on the contrary their contribution to the climate's development is known. According to the Danish site you've
142 Mham001 : Paul Harvey today reported that in the last 4 years, the US had reduced co2 emissions by 7% compared to Europes 4%. Of course, he provided no source a
143 Post contains links Mham001 : As a followup, here is some of what we've been up to for some time. For more information, go to http://www.lbl.gov/Tech-Transfer/techs/index.html. Eac
144 Allstarflyer : That would be generous of you, assuming I misquoted it. Yet the mass media (and perhaps you as well) would have us to accept that the "facts" of glob
145 Post contains images Galapagapop :
146 Boeing7E7 : They've had 100 year droughts before. What's your point? Look. I know France wants to sell nuke plants and trains now that the airplane business isn'
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