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US Evangelicals' Next Target: Laws In Europe  
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20479 posts, RR: 62
Posted (7 years 4 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3291 times:

Quoting http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0417/p01s03-woeu.htm:

For the past two months, the Busekros family has been fighting a court battle to regain custody of their 15-year-old daughter, Melissa. German police took her from her home here, and placed her in a psychiatric ward. The reason: She was being home-schooled, which violates Germany's compulsory education law.

Melissa's plight has struck a chord with US evangelicals, who often see home-schooling as a way to instill Christian values. American evangelical groups have rushed to the family's aid, providing legal counsel and lobbying the German parliament.

Many American Christians have reached out to the Busekros family, who now have two wicker baskets stuffed with hundreds of letters from supporters. "It reminds us that we are not alone, that there are people standing behind us and giving us the strength to fight," says Melissa's mother, Gudrun.

The Busekros case is emblematic of the growing effort by US Christian legal organizations to take the "culture wars" overseas. Pushing back against a perceived assault on their values by an increasingly secular society, the groups are striving to influence European law on issues ranging from home schooling to stem-cell research to gay marriage.

Interesting reasoning behind this--US courts citing foreign precedents and international standards in key cases such as the case that legalized sodomy in Texas:

"We realized that if we didn't try to mold precedents abroad, they could come back to hurt us, and that the American legal system as we know might change," says Benjamin Bull, chief counsel for the ADF.

Hang on tight, Europe. Be brave!


International Homo of Mystery
77 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBraybuddy From Ireland, joined exactly 10 years ago today! , 5678 posts, RR: 32
Reply 1, posted (7 years 4 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3279 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Thread starter):
Hang on tight, Europe. Be brave!

Whatever about providing legal aid, I don't think they'll persuade the general public. Evangelicals are at best looked on as harmless crackpots, and at worst raving lunatics, so I don't think they'll have much influence on public opinion.

Hopefully.


User currently offlineAgill From Sweden, joined Feb 2004, 1010 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (7 years 4 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3279 times:

Evangelical American organisations will probably be very successful over here... It's like the french communist party going to the states to abolish guns, or something like that.

User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20479 posts, RR: 62
Reply 3, posted (7 years 4 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3256 times:

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 1):
I don't think they'll have much influence on public opinion.

Hopefully that will be true. The depth that these groups are going is quite astonishing though, including attempting to block funding for stem-cell research at the EU level.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineGreasespot From Canada, joined Apr 2004, 3079 posts, RR: 20
Reply 4, posted (7 years 4 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3246 times:

Heck they have been sticking their noses into Canada for a while...Mainly by funding all those warm and fuzzy hate grups like Focus on the Family Canada and Institute of marriage and family.....


Thankfully we have the Charter of rights and freedoms that keeps their power in check.

GS



Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
User currently offlineCba From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 4531 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (7 years 4 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3215 times:

Hey, you guys can have them... we're sick of them here!

User currently offlineAloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8702 posts, RR: 43
Reply 6, posted (7 years 4 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3207 times:

Quoting Cba (Reply 5):
Hey, you guys can have them... we're sick of them here!

I'd rather see them relocating to Iraq to share their "Christian values" with the local populace... I still want to know why Fred Phelps' WBC didn't picket at Saddam's funeral.

typo edited

[Edited 2007-04-21 15:53:26]


Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 7, posted (7 years 4 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3182 times:

They have been all over the place like a rash on the subject of evolution. Alas, surveys show that they are NOT unsuccessful. There was a legal case in Aus where Professor Ian Plimer took some fundies to court using the trade descriptions act in relation to them claiming that some outcrops on the flanks of Mt Ararat were the remains of the ark (yes that ark!). He lost, after the judge sort of agreed that he was right, just he thought the trade descriptions act did not cover the case - inaccurately precised. If anyone is interested, a search under Ian Plimer will find the case.

User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13985 posts, RR: 62
Reply 8, posted (7 years 4 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3167 times:

The reason why we have the compulsory school attendance laws is that the children need to have a certain knowledge of things when they have grown up and live in modern society. In the old days, when the laws were intruduced first, it was usually that poorer parents wanted to let their children work for money instead of going to school.
Today, as e.g. with the Russian immigrant Babtists or Muslim fundamentalists or the supporters of those evangelical fundamentalist churches it is because the parents DON'T want their children to learn about certain things, let it be evolution in biology class, sexual education or about other religions.
The parents are free to teach their children as much as they want about the Bible, the Q'ran etc., but I remember that there was a verdict from the supreme court, which rules that the children's right to get a comprehensive education is higher than the right of the parents to limit the education of the children to certain religious subjects.

Jan


User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13073 posts, RR: 12
Reply 9, posted (7 years 4 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3158 times:

I think the religious right is making a good point in that parents, with some guidence and regulation by the government, should be able to home school their children. For some, it may be for religious reasons,as they see the public/government schools as too secular. For others, they feel that school may not teach in they way they want their children to believe in certain subjects - and of course that is the root issue. That Germany won't allow home schooling probably is probably a cultural concept there that education is a government responsibility or at least to supervise or control to some extent with the child going to a religious or private school. Perhaps one fear is that home schooled children will be taught Nazi era history counterdictory to the government standard - that is encouaging pro-Nazi beliefs, especially Holacoast denial.
Germany has significant counterdictions in thier relations of religion and state. In some states of Germany, (particulary Bavaria) they require government/public school classrooms to have Christian Crufixes and has taken a hard line as to Scientology doing business there. Yet, only a tiny percentage of citizens - except for Muslims - regularly attend religious services and in much smaller percentages than the USA.
As to Europe in general, all but a few have much more restricive laws as to abortion than the USA. Most still observe Sunday as a day of rest, with few businesses open. A few countries, like Italy and Irelend still have close ties to the Roman Catholic church and Greece with the Orthodox Christian faith. The Crown head of the UK is still the head of the Church of England. Other countries, like France since the late 1800's have deemed a very strict faith/state line, including banning of religious head or body coverings in public/government schools, and issue that has ticked off the Muslim community there.
As to other laws that USA evangelicals may try to change in Europe they may find little else to do and will fizzle out quickly.


User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (7 years 4 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3157 times:

Quoting Aloges (Reply 6):
I still want to know why Fred Phelps' WBC didn't picket at Saddam's funeral.

..dude, that's some funny sh!t right there, LOL!


User currently offlineAndaman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (7 years 4 months 3 days ago) and read 3125 times:

The American Westboro Baptist Church has become famous here in the Nordic countries, lately they have been sending hate mail to the Swedish Royal Family: they think The Princess, and the rest of the nation, is living in sinful life or something... And back in year 2000 when they learnt that the new Finnish lady president has been in gay politics, the target was Finland.
The sad thing is that for some people these kind of mad noisy groups represent whole America...


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13985 posts, RR: 62
Reply 12, posted (7 years 4 months 3 days ago) and read 3120 times:

One thing I can predict is that the American evangelicals will face a tough fight. Most Europeans are either firmly settled into mainstream religions (like Judaism, Roman-Catholicism, the Anglican church, Lutheranism, Calvinism or the Greek and Serb Othodox church) or they do not care much about religion anyway. The only ones I can imagine wjho would go for fundamentalist religions are certain immigrants from Muslim countries and they definitely would not convert to evangelical Christianity.

Jan


User currently offlineCharles79 From Puerto Rico, joined Mar 2007, 1331 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (7 years 4 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3080 times:

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 9):
think the religious right is making a good point in that parents, with some guidance and regulation by the government, should be able to home school their children. For some, it may be for religious reasons,as they see the public/government schools as too secular. For others, they feel that school may not teach in they way they want their children to believe in certain subjects - and of course that is the root issue.

I have real issues with home-schooling, and I haven't met that many kids that were home-schooled that grew up to be as productive as their schooled peers. My biggest concern has to do with the social interaction that kids only get at school. I grew up in a fairly conservative Christian household and attended a regular secular school. I still kept my Christian values, and being exposed to other ideas etc only made me a more complete person.

Parents who try to shelter their kids from the reality of the world do them a disservice as those kids won't be equipped to handle the real world and interact in society. I sincerely hope that the other posters here are right and that the European governments don't pay attention to these religion groups.


User currently offlineBraybuddy From Ireland, joined exactly 10 years ago today! , 5678 posts, RR: 32
Reply 14, posted (7 years 4 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3055 times:

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 9):
Most still observe Sunday as a day of rest, with few businesses open. A few countries, like Italy and Irelend still have close ties to the Roman Catholic church

Not any more, here anyway. Shopping has replaced Mass as the family Sunday acitvity, and it's mostly the tens of thousans of Poles who are the regular church goers.


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13985 posts, RR: 62
Reply 15, posted (7 years 4 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3040 times:

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 14):
Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 9):
Most still observe Sunday as a day of rest, with few businesses open. A few countries, like Italy and Irelend still have close ties to the Roman Catholic church

Not any more, here anyway. Shopping has replaced Mass as the family Sunday acitvity, and it's mostly the tens of thousans of Poles who are the regular church goers.

Don't forget those thousands of Philippinos.
Many Irish lost their faith in the Catholic church in the 1990's when several scandals (sexual abuse, industrial schools run by sadist monks and nuns, illegitime children taken away from their mothers to grow up in very badly run orphanages run by nuns and monks, with the mothers being imprisoned in those industrial "schools" doing forced labour etc.) came to light.

Jan


User currently offlineAndaman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (7 years 4 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 3006 times:

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 14):

Not any more, here anyway. Shopping has replaced Mass as the family Sunday activity

Thats sounds like Lutherans  Smile
Catholicism is not well know in Finland, it is one the lest catholic countries in Europe, just learnt there are three times more Muslims than Catholics.


User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (7 years 4 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 2996 times:

I doubt if Herr Pope will just lollygag in his silky satin gowns and red Prada sequined pumps and let a bunch of tatty, insane, fire and brimstone Southern evangelicals from Sump Pump, Texas and Port-a-pottie, Louisiana run amock in Europe.

User currently offlineSearpqx From Netherlands, joined Jun 2000, 4344 posts, RR: 10
Reply 18, posted (7 years 4 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 2990 times:

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 17):
I doubt if Herr Pope will just lollygag in his silky satin gowns and red Prada sequined pumps and let a bunch of tatty, insane, fire and brimstone Southern evangelicals from Sump Pump, Texas and Port-a-pottie, Louisiana run amock in Europe.

:D Man, if you'd just figured out how to throw gays, femenists and Euros in there, you could have offended 99% of the planet! I love it!



"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
User currently offlineKingsford From Belgium, joined Nov 2003, 427 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (7 years 4 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 2881 times:

Well, if mom's a bigot and dad's an idiot, home-schooled kid will just be a bigotted idiot who will start shooting at people in universities cos it's too crowdy or couldn't get there in the first place.

User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4681 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (7 years 4 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 2837 times:

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 9):
In some states of Germany, (particulary Bavaria) they require government/public school classrooms to have Christian Crufixes

No, not really. You'll find them in many elementary school classrooms, but not where most of secondary education takes place.

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 9):
and has taken a hard line as to Scientology doing business there.

And I'm very glad this is the case!



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlinePyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 3978 posts, RR: 28
Reply 21, posted (7 years 4 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2824 times:

Home-schooling should be prohibited unless you live in the middle of the woods hours away from the nearest school (and even then with restrictions, e.g. what are they doing there in the first place?).

True, social interaction with other kids and being exposed to things other than the strict guidelines your parents want to impose (most of the times religiously-motivated) are very important but one very important factor that is usually neglected is the quality of teaching (not so critical in primary school but very critical in high-school).
Teaching is a very qualified and specialized job, it is not anyone that can do it. A high-school physics teacher (for instance) cannot teach literature (at least here in Portugal), as their backgrounds are very different. What qualifies ma and pa redneck to teach all the disciplines in high-school? Do they for a chance share 5-6 different college majors between them?



Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
User currently offlineKaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12427 posts, RR: 37
Reply 22, posted (7 years 4 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2821 times:

I think they would be bounced out on their backsides; remember that a lot of Europeans would see the far right religious groups as being - rightly or wrongly - in league with the Republicans and pro-Bush and that would not endear them to anyone in Europe right now. Indeed, I would go as far as to say that their support for a particular issue would be as effective anything in persuading Europeans to support the opposite side!

"Tolerance" is a key word in most European countries (even where the "Daily Mail" is read!) and the reason for that may be that the US simply does not have a history of the worst consequences of intolerance that Europe has seen; that has been a driver for many of Europe's anti-hatred, racism and discrimination laws and for US groups, which - it seems - are committed to fostering division and hatred of certain groups, that kind of intolerance would not be welcome.

Hence my first comment above: there will be a slight break in the European tradition of tolerance, specially reserved for those who want to spread intolerance. And we'll all share in the "schadenfreude" ...


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13985 posts, RR: 62
Reply 23, posted (7 years 4 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2782 times:

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 21):
Home-schooling should be prohibited unless you live in the middle of the woods hours away from the nearest school (and even then with restrictions, e.g. what are they doing there in the first place?).

When I was a boy, I knew two boys who were homeschooled for two years (on elementary school level). The reason was that the father, who was a geologist, a colleague of my father, had to work for two years on a research project in very rural Bolivia. Instead of being seperated from his family for two years, he took them with him and, together with his wife, taught them with full approval of the school authorities. This was probably only possible due to four reasons:
1) the children were still at elementary school level
2) the father was a university professor
3) there was no reasonable school available where they were going.
4) it was for a limited period of time only.

Also my father took my brother and myself on field trips when we were in elementary school. Often the field trips (of a few weeks) would happen during class period, so my parents received a copy of the curriculum for these few weeks from our teachers and taught the subjects to us during the trip.

Jan


User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (7 years 4 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2727 times:

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 17):
I doubt if Herr Pope will just lollygag in his silky satin gowns and red Prada sequined pumps and let a bunch of tatty, insane, fire and brimstone Southern evangelicals from Sump Pump, Texas and Port-a-pottie, Louisiana run amock in Europe.

...but what are you suggesting he'd do about it?


25 Post contains images MD11Engineer : Wasn't the current Pope in his former position the head of what used to be known as the Holy Inquisition? Bring out the pliers, the rack and the stak
26 ConcordeBoy : So basically Ratzi becomes some sorta queer-hunting van Helsing?
27 Halls120 : Look on the bright side. They will most likely be ineffectual in Europe, and for every dollar they spend trying to influence EU laws, that is a dolla
28 Gunsontheroof : Except for the fact that the French Communist Party stands absolutely no chance of abolishing guns in the United States. Frankly, I can't think of a
29 Zak : very true, i dont see them gaining any ground for reasons mentioned before. i do think that these bible people do not really understand the vast diff
30 N1120A : Hey, we have the Constitution and that doesn't stop them from having entirely too much influence in this country. Not particularly. Germany's constit
31 Greasespot : Yes but has a whole bunch of more grey areas.... Plus the collective rights in many cases trump the individual rights....In the USA everything is tie
32 Jaysit : Look, if there's one thing the loony-bin Southern Evangelicals from the US hate more than queers, feminists, secular liberals, Muslims, and anyone who
33 Mrniji : They are also very, very aggressive in India and trying to upset the concept of religious freedom, tolera,ce, acceptance and coexistence there True i
34 MD11Engineer : This does not only apply to the christian churches, but is also carried out for the Central Council of Jewish Communities (and AFAFIK, as soon as the
35 Post contains images Mrniji : Interesting, I did not know that. Thanks for showing me that anet is still a place where you can learn something
36 Daedaeg : Well according to the article, it looks as though the christian groups are having some success. IMHO they provide balance in an increasingly secular a
37 Mrniji : Since when does secular mean godless? Secularism can also mean pluralism and does not have to be the French version automatically. Religion is great,
38 Zak : a) for a working democracy, the citizen should be aware and tought about unbiased, proven scientifical approaches and a broad array of horizons on ma
39 Post contains images Klaus : And neo-nazis probably "provide balance" as well, don't they?
40 Pyrex : "Traditional" is not the opposite of "secular"... Why not? I know you Germans are very keen at the moment on imposing your anti-nazi laws in the rest
41 Acheron : Maybe because the extreme-right has caused more damage to Wester Europe than the communist(except a part of germany, of course) and maybe because com
42 Klaus : Because hatred and murder are not part of anything I'd call "balance"? Not really. But the primary issue is that the nazis consistently aim at destro
43 Jaysit : Lets try this: I think that Herr Pope would rather allow a bunch of lesbian feminists be cardinals and Eurotrash DJs sing in the boy's choir, than lo
44 JGPH1A : SO last season ! Doesn't he know that purple is the new scarlet ?
45 Jaysit : Yeah, but you can't tap your heels and shuttle straight to the Vatican with purple pumps. Only ruby-red (scarlet) works, and Herr Pope knows it.
46 Jafa39 : European Govts tend not to be swayed by anybody, least of all their own voters! I think it highly unlikely that US Fundies will influence Euro-Politi
47 TheCol : I believe there are two reasons for that. 1. Europe has seen the ill effects of the extreme right, more than once, and won't lean in that direction e
48 Pyrex : If you hear someone in Germany or Spain vandalizing a busy high-street during a political convention and throwing molotov cocktails at the police who
49 Acheron : Any group is prone to vandalize, be it tree huggers, anarchists, extreme-right, extreme-left, British Hooligans. Only(or mostly, at least) far-right
50 Klaus : Rubbish. It's an oft-repeated propaganda claim primarily from the europhobes, but in actual fact european countries have seen a major deregulation wa
51 Pyrex : The Portuguese Communist Party has in the first lines of their chapter a statemement that says their objective is to implement a Marxist-Leninist rul
52 Acheron : Law doesn't work with suppositions of that kind(I think). Just because you think they want to "end the democracy" because they are communist, it does
53 Pyrex : Well, it does work on supposition on the other end - the courts just assume that because they are nationalist they are off to kill all blacks/jews/ga
54 ME AVN FAN : US American evangelists and Muslim fundamentalists can once upon a time succeed in influencing a particular affair, but overall, those dimwits rather
55 L410Turbolet : In today's EU there is definitely a huge difference in perception of nazis and communists. While the entire Europe had direct experience with nazis,
56 Mrniji : Very very true. There is another big difference, why the state action against the Baader-Mienhoff group for instance was always tougher than against
57 Klaus : Not relevant here. Formerly communist countries are free to put a ban on the denial of victims of their own earlier regimes. Unfortunately Russia und
58 Post contains images TheCol : The effects of communism on Europe doesn't even begin to compare with the atrocities of fascism. Not usually. Most right-wing extremest groups, both
59 Blackbird : I just hope Germans don't start throwing people in loony-bins because they are religious. Their 15-year old daughter was hospitalized! Also, while sta
60 Mrniji : I am strictly against that. The state should provide the citizens with (a minimum level of) education and prevent that teens are indoctrinated (f.i.
61 ME AVN FAN : Such a thing should be the exception, for instance in case of circus artists/employees. But definitely not a general thing.
62 Blackbird : Well, there is another reason to be against elimination of home-schooling. What if the government adopted some kind of totalitarian bent and used the
63 Post contains images Mrniji : True - in that case i would probably shift countries for the sake of my kids and for the reason that I do not want to live in a totalitarian country
64 Post contains images Klaus : True for most countries, but Stalin's rule actually exceeded Hitler's atrocities substantially; Stalin "just" protected his regime with nuclear weapo
65 ME AVN FAN : in most of Western Europe, "home-schooling" canNOT be eliminated as it does NOT exist as a system, but just as exception to people in special jobs. -
66 L410Turbolet : I dont see a reason for that. If some communists wants to deny their own party's atrocities, concentration camps and terror, so be it; i don't see wh
67 NoUFO : That was of course not the reason for bringing her into a child psychiatry.
68 Connies4ever : The no home-schooling law in Germany dates from the Nazi era, IIRC. During that time the government wanted total control over children to mould them
69 NoUFO : Yes, but other than in the 30s, we have some 2,800 private schools in Germany by now, and this number increases by 6-7% every year. This is a little
70 ME AVN FAN : the following info shows that it goes back into pre-1918 times : Gesetzliche Bestimmungen zur Schulpflicht wurden zuerst im seinerzeitigen Norddeutsc
71 Post contains images Pelican : Where did you get that information? pelican
72 ME AVN FAN : This here is the law in the Canton of Zurich (education is the concern of the Cantons and not of the Union) : - Schulpflicht Jedes Kind, das bis zum 3
73 Blackbird : That's what I worry about when people want to ban homeschooling. Of course I want them to meet the same standards as the public schools if not more s
74 NoUFO : From the little I know, authorities said the decision to place Melissa in a psychiatric clinic was motivated by concern for the girl's welfare and wa
75 Connies4ever : The colleague of mine who home schooled his kids was born & raised in Germany. And his wife. But, as pointed out by ME AVN FAN, the law goes further
76 MD11Engineer : No, to almost 100 years BEFORE the Kaiser (in Germany we only had a Kaiser from 1871 until 1918, not counting the medieval Holy roman Empire of Germa
77 Post contains images ME AVN FAN : "home-schooling" is ok in exceptional cases like circus-artists and thelike, who would like to have their family together. It also is ok if school is
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