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Any Chance Of Turkey Joining EU?  
User currently offlineSoylentgreen From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 245 posts, RR: 2
Posted (7 years 7 months 23 hours ago) and read 3844 times:

My thoughts continue to be that without an acknowledgment of, or apology for the Armenian Holocaust, and a withdrawal of troops from Cyprus, it's not going to happen.

Most of the industrialized nations have already issued statements condemning the Armenian genocide, and as far as Turkish Cyprus, only one nation recognizes its existence-Turkey.

Not a good starting point when looking to join the EU.

Anyone else have a differing view that can be presented intelligently?

238 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLHStarAlliance From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (7 years 7 months 23 hours ago) and read 3843 times:

Quoting Soylentgreen (Thread starter):

hopefully not ... seeing what happens now in turkey ... No Chance .. and wtf do they want in Europe , most europeans don´t want them in the EU ...


User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 2, posted (7 years 7 months 22 hours ago) and read 3828 times:

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 1):
seeing what happens now in turkey

Precisely why it would be a good idea to try to encourage them to the point where they could get in. Or do you want a hostile Islamic state on the eastern borders of Europe?

Quoting Soylentgreen (Thread starter):
and as far as Turkish Cyprus, only one nation recognizes its existence-Turkey.

Yes, and if the EU hadn't been so stupid as to fail to make the referendum in the south conditional for entry, then you might have had the beginnings of a resolution to the issue by now.

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 1):
most europeans don´t want them in the EU ...

And a lot of that is blatant racism, sadly enough. The idea of the EU as some kind of Christian-only club is pretty distasteful anyway. There is a lack of strategic thinking on the part of many of the politicians, though some nations are strongly in favour of Turkish entry.



She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (7 years 7 months 22 hours ago) and read 3808 times:

No, EU don´t want a member with borders to Iraq, Iran and Syria, nor Georgia.
I think next new members are Ukraine, Moldavia and Croatia...

[Edited 2007-04-30 15:47:44]

User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (7 years 7 months 22 hours ago) and read 3797 times:

Quoting Banco (Reply 2):
Or do you want a hostile Islamic state on the eastern borders of Europe?

Might be better than a hostile islamic state INSIDE the eastern borders of Europe...


User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 5, posted (7 years 7 months 22 hours ago) and read 3797 times:

Quoting Soylentgreen (Thread starter):
Not a good starting point when looking to join the EU.

You have to look at it from a Turkish perspective.
> Short-term : a full entry NOW would A) ruin the carpet industry due to EU minimum wages
- - - - - - - and B) put the techn. industry into trouble by good emigration poss. for qualified personnel
> Long-term : Turkey, due to the Bilateral Treaties of the E.U. with Israel and most Arab countries, which are
far more wide-reaching than the old association of Turkey with the E.U., Turkey would get into severe disadvantages
-
This simply means that Turkey will have to settle things like the Armenia-Genocide matters, and most of all the Kurdish problem. In regard to Turkish Cyprus, it exactly is the heavy Turkish military presence which puts Turkish Cyprus at a political dis-advantage. The demands of the Greek Cypriots however at present are clearly beyond anything feasible. The way to settle things are by improving relations with Greece, Armenia and the Arab World, areas where the Turks have not done enough. There are quite a variety of things to get changed in Turkey in the next few years, like the exceedingly high 10% hurdle for parties to get into the parliament, etc. As Turkey in the longer term has no alternative to the E.U., the country will have to do a variety of improvements before a EU-entry can be launched for real.
-

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 1):
and wtf do they want in Europe , most europeans don´t want them in the EU ...

They already ARE in Europe, but want to join the E.U. . You say that "most Europeans" don't want" but forget the "now" etc. To say it again, Turkish business leaders are strictly AGAINST an EU-entry right NOW, but the same persons WANT to have such an entry definitely, but in the longer term. And ONE IMPORTANT reasons they want it is that it is a way to force their political institutions to modernize matters.
-


User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 6, posted (7 years 7 months 22 hours ago) and read 3787 times:

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 4):
Might be better than a hostile islamic state INSIDE the eastern borders of Europe...

But the point being that by locking them into being a democratic, secular state, you wouldn't. Leave them outside, and who knows what might happen.



She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlineKay From France, joined Mar 2002, 1884 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (7 years 7 months 22 hours ago) and read 3787 times:

Quoting Banco (Reply 2):
The idea of the EU as some kind of Christian-only club is pretty distasteful anyway. There is a lack of strategic thinking on the part of many of the politicians, though some nations are strongly in favour of Turkish entry.

Well it is a blend of many things. Some examples do indicate that this tolerance that you are showing doesn't exist in the other direction. The western way of life is simply not identical to the oriental one, and as secular as Turkey wants to be in the future, it is still an Islamic nation to some extent today. Historically, many wars have taken place between half the European countries and exactly Turkey. This was 400 years ago, granted, but the feelings remain.
The Armenian genocide denial doesn't help. The fact that some cases do indicate that Islam, in some contexts, isn't tolerant of the western way of life, doesn't help neither. Women get same/better salaries and very powerful posts, etc etc.

Many of these factors taken alone wouldn't really count, but a huge, powerful non-secular nation, characterized by becoming an enormous empire for 700 years, and characterized by making war with most European nations, and characterized by not admitting a genocide... I understand why it it is difficult.

I know that Europe needs it badly, but that's cause Europe can't sort itself out. Something drastic needs to happen to fix its enormous problems, true.

Kay (not Austrian, don't flame  Wink)


User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 8, posted (7 years 7 months 22 hours ago) and read 3780 times:

Quoting Kay (Reply 7):
Well it is a blend of many things. Some examples do indicate that this tolerance that you are showing doesn't exist in the other direction. The western way of life is simply not identical to the oriental one, and as secular as Turkey wants to be in the future, it is still an Islamic nation to some extent today. Historically, many wars have taken place between half the European countries and exactly Turkey. This was 400 years ago, granted, but the feelings remain.
The Armenian genocide denial doesn't help. The fact that some cases do indicate that Islam, in some contexts, isn't tolerant of the western way of life, doesn't help neither. Women get same/better salaries and very powerful posts, etc etc.

But by the same lights you could say that Germany (and Austria - no, not flaming you  Wink ) shouldn't be let anywhere near european institutions because they have such a clear record of starting world wars. And that would clearly be silly. There are plenty of so-called Christian nations (including my own) who have a far from spotless record over the centuries. No-one puts our history in the same religious context as Turkey, and Turkey is a secular nation, not an Islamic one.



She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlineEmirates029 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2007, 179 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (7 years 7 months 21 hours ago) and read 3761 times:

Dont really see why Turkey should ever join the EU. It is not a predominantly or historically European country based on Judeo-Christian values.

User currently offlineKay From France, joined Mar 2002, 1884 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (7 years 7 months 21 hours ago) and read 3754 times:

Quoting Banco (Reply 8):
Germany (and Austria - no, not flaming you ) shouldn't be let anywhere near european institutions because they have such a clear record of starting world wars

I agree, but they were already in Europe when they did that  Smile, and it is impossible to kick them out or not to include them in the CEE or the EU later as they are a big chunk of European history, since the Franks and before...

Actually they did block the Turkish invasion too..  Wink

Kay


User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 11, posted (7 years 7 months 20 hours ago) and read 3734 times:

Quoting Kay (Reply 7):
The western way of life is simply not identical to the oriental one

Does Turkey "practice" an "oriental" way of life ? the answer to at least 80% is simply NO
-

Quoting Kay (Reply 7):
powerful non-secular nation, characterized by becoming an enormous empire for 700 years, and characterized by making war with most European nations

you speak about the Turkish Empire, which in those times was also the Kaliphate. The Kaliphate has NEVER been assumed by the Republic of Turkey, and the point is that the Empire and the Republic for almost two years existed side by side. The "Empire" was not simply integrated, it was conquered and eliminated. Back to the Turkish Empire / Ottoman Empire. This Empire for a long time was very closely allied with the German Empire. Imperial Turkey did NOT have more war with European countries as other European countries.
-

Quoting Emirates029 (Reply 9):
Dont really see why Turkey should ever join the EU. It is not a predominantly or historically European country based on Judeo-Christian values.

It is both historically and predominantly a European country, with its history and culture closely embedded in Europe. It in fact is amazing that the Turks never managed to get into a more than distantly polite relationship with the Arab World. "Judeo-Christian values" is something you might define a bit more closely. Most of these values anyway are also Muslim values. AND you ought to realize that Albania has a Muslim majority and is deeply in Europe.
-

Quoting Kay (Reply 10):
they were already in Europe when they did that

when the Turks "did that" they were just a few kilometers outside Vienna, and that to my knowledge clearly IS "in Europe"  Big grin  Wink
-
to say it again, the Turks have just two long-term choices, one is to be the odd one out and the other one is to approach the EU
-


User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 12, posted (7 years 7 months 19 hours ago) and read 3705 times:

Turkey should not try to join Europe since it would basically increase the cost of living,cost of manufacture and actually decrease the quality of life for many poorer Turks.
They can target a far-reaching assocation agreement with low or no duties to be paid for Turkish goods in EEC.
Turkey will find great markets in the Arab world,Asia,Iran,Africa-their control of manufacture for house-hold goods,Electronics or even building is very good now.
I don't see major problems for Turkey not gaining full EEC membership.And reding german forums about the subject,many Turkish citizens living in Germany are very proud not to search membership at any cost.



Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlineKay From France, joined Mar 2002, 1884 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (7 years 7 months 19 hours ago) and read 3699 times:

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 11):
when the Turks "did that" they were just a few kilometers outside Vienna

Of course the battle was in Europe duh, but what I am saying is they marched all the way from south-east Europe, where they were after invading it as well. They were the invadors, not the natives, a difference!

It took a huge battle, the construction of a massive fortified wall, months of preparation, a long siege again by the Turks, months of illness and isolation, and finally another huge battle in the next century to keep the Turks out of Vienna and to rid them of the threat by the execution of Pasha by the Ottomans themselves. A strategic defeat that could be the reason for the decline of the empire afterwards.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 11):
This Empire for a long time was very closely allied with the German Empire. Imperial Turkey did NOT have more war with European countries as other European countries.

Yes it did!! the notorious "Ottoman wars" spanning all the empire's 700 years, with Hungary, Albany, Italy, Greece, Poland, Austria, Bosnia, Montenegro, Russia, just to name a few!


Kay


User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 14, posted (7 years 7 months 19 hours ago) and read 3694 times:

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 12):
Turkey should not try to join Europe since it would basically increase the cost of living,cost of manufacture and actually decrease the quality of life for many poorer Turks.

Turkey would benefit massively economically from joining the EU. "Quality of life" as a measure is a pretty nebulous comment.



She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (7 years 7 months 19 hours ago) and read 3683 times:

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 12):
Turkey should not try to join Europe since it would basically increase the cost of living,cost of manufacture and actually decrease the quality of life for many poorer Turks.
They can target a far-reaching assocation agreement with low or no duties to be paid for Turkish goods in EEC.
Turkey will find great markets in the Arab world,Asia,Iran,Africa-their control of manufacture for house-hold goods,Electronics or even building is very good now.
I don't see major problems for Turkey not gaining full EEC membership.And reding german forums about the subject,many Turkish citizens living in Germany are very proud not to search membership at any cost.

Also remain the visa-free travel for Russian citizens, hardly possible if member of EU. Russians bring in a lot of money
as tourists to Turkey.


User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 16, posted (7 years 7 months 18 hours ago) and read 3673 times:

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 12):
Turkey should not try to join Europe since it would basically increase the cost of living,cost of manufacture and actually decrease the quality of life for many poorer Turks.

These are the reasons why Turkey is not really in a hurry, but in the long-term, it exports-wise depends too much on the West-European markets and is, not least due to more than 15 mio. Turks living in Western Europe, far too closely linked with the E.U. to go alone.
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Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 12):
They can target a far-reaching assocation agreement with low or no duties to be paid for Turkish goods in EEC.

They already HAVE such assosciation agreement with the E.U., actually have had it for more than 2 decades

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 12):
Turkey will find great markets in the Arab world,Asia,Iran,Africa-their control of manufacture for house-hold goods,Electronics or even building is very good now.

Turkey already HAS these markets, but simply needs access on the European side
-

Quoting Kay (Reply 13):
not the natives, a difference!

in what is Turkey today, a European country, they were and are the "natives"
-

Quoting Kay (Reply 13):
A strategic defeat that could be the reason for the decline of the empire afterwards.

The decline in reality had already started, but on the top. As the saying goes, the fish stinks from its head.
-

Quoting Kay (Reply 13):
with Hungary, Albany, Italy, Greece, Poland, Austria, Bosnia, Montenegro, Russia

Hungary  checkmark 
Albania --- NO, the Shkipetars (Albanians) were on the Turkish side
Italy --- Turkey HAD some differences with Italian states (Italy not existing yet), but Italian states had wars with other Italian states as well
Greece --- was NOT existing but part of the Byzantine Empire and so was "in the bag" -- it was the Greeks who in the 1800s wanted to get out
Poland --- Poles went to help the Austrians but there was no war between the Ottoman Empire and Poland
Austria ---  checkmark 
Bosnia --- no such country in history
Montenegro ---  checkmark 
Russia --- Russia was not yet existing when the Ottoman Empire expanded to the North of the Black Sea, military conflicts only came in the 18th/19th century with Russia generally the attacking side
-

Quoting Banco (Reply 14):
Turkey would benefit massively economically from joining the EU

as it will. But of course, before that, various things need to be changed. While I hope the Turks are NOT to sacrifice Turkish Cyprus on the altar of their EU-plans, and do NOT yield to the pro-Greek pressures.
-


User currently offlineWSOY From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (7 years 7 months 18 hours ago) and read 3668 times:

Turkey should definitely join the EU. It will create instability in the Union that will result in its collapse from within.

User currently offlineEmirates029 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2007, 179 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (7 years 7 months 18 hours ago) and read 3657 times:

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 11):
It is both historically and predominantly a European country, with its history and culture closely embedded in Europe. It in fact is amazing that the Turks never managed to get into a more than distantly polite relationship with the Arab World. "Judeo-Christian values" is something you might define a bit more closely. Most of these values anyway are also Muslim values. AND you ought to realize that Albania has a Muslim majority and is deeply in Europe.

To put it in a less rude way, Turkey is not 'demographically aligned' with other European countries. Although that could change in the next few decades. However, even though the likes of Australia, Canada etc are aligned, they still shouldn't be allowed into the EU. Even if I get flamed for that comment, subconsciously that is the issue most people, including those making the decisions in Brussels, have problems with.


User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 19, posted (7 years 7 months 18 hours ago) and read 3655 times:

Quoting WSOY (Reply 17):
Turkey should definitely join the EU. It will create instability in the Union that will result in its collapse from within.

Turkey in future will become the "south-eastern pillar" of the E.U. and will stabilize and strengthen the E.U. considerably.
-

Quoting Emirates029 (Reply 18):
Turkey is not 'demographically aligned' with other European countries

Neither are the British Isles !  rotfl   rotfl 


User currently offlineEmirates029 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2007, 179 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (7 years 7 months 17 hours ago) and read 3649 times:

But the UK is more so, than Turkey.

User currently offlineYellowstone From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 3071 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (7 years 7 months 16 hours ago) and read 3634 times:

Doesn't Turkey still practice the death penalty? I was under the impression that that was forbidden by the EU.


Hydrogen is an odorless, colorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people.
User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 22, posted (7 years 7 months 16 hours ago) and read 3624 times:

Has been abolished last year..


Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlineWSOY From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (7 years 7 months 14 hours ago) and read 3595 times:

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 19):
Quoting WSOY (Reply 17):
Turkey should definitely join the EU. It will create instability in the Union that will result in its collapse from within.

Turkey in future will become the "south-eastern pillar" of the E.U. and will stabilize and strengthen the E.U. considerably.

So let's all welcome Turkey in a big way! Olli Rehn, we salute you!


User currently offlinePyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 4037 posts, RR: 28
Reply 24, posted (7 years 7 months 14 hours ago) and read 3588 times:

Quoting Banco (Reply 6):

But the point being that by locking them into being a democratic, secular state, you wouldn't. Leave them outside, and who knows what might happen.

They have so far had almost 90 years to form a democratic, secular state and still the Army has to intervene to stop islamists from reaching power, as the people apparently just want to blow democracy away. I'd say they still have a long way to go.

Quoting Banco (Reply 8):
because they have such a clear record of starting world wars

What record? They only started one (WW2). I don't think any single European nation can be afforded the blaim of WW1, it was probably one of the few examples in history where all sides were in the wrong.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 11):
Albania has a Muslim majority and is deeply in Europe.

Yeah, but they have so far been able to fail miserably at being "European" by any definition.



Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
25 TurkishWings : There is no need to apologize for something that never happened, is there? I am sick and tired of discussing this with people so I will not even go t
26 Soylentgreen : Therein lies problem #1. And here is #2. Primary evidence of why EU membership will never happen.
27 Beaucaire : Recent population projections in Europe indicate a need to consider the immigration of several million immigrant workers to keep the population in cou
28 LHStarAlliance : The last I´ll ever be is racist ! It´s just that the EU with all just joined countries should first "digest" this countries and then continue with
29 Post contains images ME AVN FAN : Turkey has land-borders with other European countries, and vast parts of the peoples of Bulgaria and Albania are ethnically of Turkish origin, while
30 Pelican : What would be the benefit for the EU? The EU would gain a strategic position - nothing less nothing more. We've already several millions here and I ca
31 LH526 : WTF?
32 Pelican : The problem is not the system as such. There are many countries with minority Governments where a Government doesn't need a majority in the parliamen
33 Dsa : I think Turkey's admission would be a great thing for the EU. Not only would it encourage cultural cohesion but it would also open up trade relations
34 Pyrex : I am not doubting you. I was talking about Albania.
35 Cedars747 : I wonder why Turkey want to join EU at first place.They have different way of life and definitely different values.Turkey is a large country very well
36 Post contains images ME AVN FAN : the bridge to the Middle East, plus a rapidly growing market, for instance for German products - you mean, Italians, Turks and Arabs are no longer cl
37 Cedars747 : No doubt about your knowledge ME ,but when I visit Turkey I dont feel like I am in Europe.Everything is different from people to food and hospitality
38 Post contains images Banco : I'm not getting into that. Suffice to say, you're talking ignorant nonsense, and you didn't even understand the analogy being painted. Oh, Lord, plea
39 Pelican : I mean that they vastly overrepresented among unemployed.You're talking about cliches - they were never engaged in their homeland to clear waste bins
40 Post contains images CO7e7 : You really they'll apologize??? Read reply #25. You can be sick all you want. Your people MASACERED the Armenians.. whether you like it or not. And i
41 Banco : If you really want to debate this, fine by me. The actual spark may not have been Germany's but the Kaiser's naked territorial and political ambition
42 Pyrex : I understood the analogy being painted perfectly (Germany being allowed into Europe despite its recent past and all that) but the only reason Germany
43 Post contains images ME AVN FAN : .- "never part of the Occident", neither were Russia, the Ukraine or Greece. The Greek Orthodox Church was "East Rome" and therefore part of the Orie
44 TurkishWings : Funny, when I visited Greece, I felt like I was in Turkey.. Very little difference between the two countries... Just what do you know about Turkey..
45 Post contains links and images Pelican : And only Greece is in the EU. Whether it was part of the Occident is up for debate since it was part of the Ottoman empire for many centuries. Despit
46 YOWza : Promises will be made and borken, stall tactics will be employed. When all is said and done Turkey will gain full entry into the EU the same day that
47 Post contains links and images RobertNL070 : Let's just hope that the murder of three employees of a Protestant publishing house in Malatya on 19th April was just a very isolated incident. Howev
48 Prebennorholm : Turkey may become an EU member one day. But it will be a long time into the future, and a very different Turkey. And first of all it has to be a Turke
49 Post contains images Asturias : No, Turkey will not join the EU. Safe to say not in the next century, safe enough to say as long as the EU lasts. If Turkey would join that would not
50 ThereAndBack : I don't care what anyone has said in this thread. Wether it be predjudice, false, or well said and true I just don't. My opinion is that Turkey doesn'
51 Klaus : They shouldn't; They should just stop denying that it happened.
52 Asturias : Err.. who are you kidding here? To answer your question: yes. Tomato, tomahto. saludos Asturias
53 Post contains links Asturias : http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thre...6242&&edition=2&ttl=20070502042958 an interesting read with various and varied opinions on the influence of Isl
54 Post contains images Cedars747 : Food in turkey is far better Alex!!!
55 Virgin744 : There was no genocide or massacre of Armenians by Turkey, therefore no apology is necessary! If you don't like what you read - Tough! Turkey invaded C
56 ME AVN FAN : - NOT at this moment. Things will gradually change, and Russia will join the EU within a few decades. - Turkey wants to become a member, but not righ
57 CO7e7 : Well, i'm asuming you looked at the flag next to my name and came to the conclusion that i am an american. Well, i'm not. I'm from the middle east. S
58 Banco : It was stupid because Britain's entire defence was predicated on naval power. The army was tiny, and the navy was the only thing guaranteeing indepen
59 Post contains images Kay : ME AVN FAN, are you a history teacher? Still you were wrong: Regarding Poland, it's alliance with Austria means it was at war with the Ottoman Empire
60 ME AVN FAN : I regard that as wars to expand Russia, and so a Russian attack - They captured the Kaliphate from the Abbasides and so jumped into the command. They
61 Pelican : There is a big difference in building an own fleet and scare someone to starting a war. The most stupid thing was that the Kaiser never intended to u
62 Banco : But what it did do was to create the circumstances where war was certain. You simply cannot provoke an arms race against the world's leading power (w
63 Kay : I don't agree. In Middle Eastern countries alot of architectural governmental buildings have the Ottoman style. The cuisine has an enormous amounts o
64 Pilotaydin : bingo 75% agricultural nation will be swamped by strong EU markets and industry and raise prices in Turkey.... Your people? name me one culture that
65 JJJ : There was no 'Turkish part of Cyprus' prior to the invasion. Thousands of people were displaced because of that (on both sides).
66 ME AVN FAN : most of what is known as "the Ottoman style" in reality was the works of Greek and Arab architecs. You have to realize that the Ottoman army was comm
67 YOWza : Great post buddy. It's a shame (as you say) that most members on this forum will just blindly believe the recycled shit they hear in the media rather
68 ME AVN FAN : quite to the contrary, it is more than it has ever been. But the Turks should simply wait. At present, the "old" EECers like France, Germany, Benelux
69 Kay : Where are the Ottomans today? Those who caused the massacre, which is less than a century ago? They can't have migrated, and can't have been replaced
70 Asturias : Asides from the adolescent use of capital letters, you have nothing to bring to this discussion. I doubt you will understand anything I say, but I'll
71 ME AVN FAN : The Ottoman were NOT an ethnic group, but a Turkish-dominated leadership-caste. Involved in the whole affair were all the ethnics which played a role
72 Banco : No, it doesn't. But that has historically formed part of what it has done. That applies in Spain, Portugal, Greece, and right back at the start, Germ
73 Post contains images Kay : Who were those mysterious Ottomans? A "Turkish-dominated leadership-caste" works for me. Kay
74 ME AVN FAN : it is interesting to see that the Sultans in their court spoke Greek and Arabic but NOT Turkish for centuries. The command for the storm against Cons
75 Asturias : I am going to change what you wrote, to make a point: How does this sound to you? Acceptable? Why or why not? saludos Asturias
76 Banco : Russia hasn't expressed any desire to join the EU. I'm a bit puzzled as to the point you're making. In principle, a free and democratic Russia would
77 Asturias : I am asking if Russia were seeking EU ascencion (which might well happen sometime in the future), that such a request should be seriously considered
78 ME AVN FAN : - I suppose he in a way referred to one of my posts above where I referred to Russia joining in one or two decades. To fulfil the dreams of General C
79 Post contains images Asturias : Although you are very dear to my heart, I am not always thinking about you You make a good point there, though. saludos Asturias
80 Banco : I see. Well, first we have to define what we want the EU to be, and here, I suspect we might differ. The issues of depth or integration can be left t
81 Post contains images Asturias : All right, I'm sure our definition of what we want the EU to be differs. There are however a couple of curiosities IMO that I find in the point you a
82 Banco : No, not at all. Where the EU is an excellent idea is that it has the muscle to negotiate fair and equitable free trade agreements with powerful outsi
83 JJJ : And basically by the "I'm not racist but..." crowd. If you ask me, Turks are very welcome to join in.... just not in the next 5-10 years it will take
84 Post contains images Asturias : Granted, it is lazy and I meant no offense. I was tempted to make a stab in that direction, since you are for a major expension and you are also from
85 Asturias : Occupation of an EU country and denial of Armenian genocide clustered with poor economy, poor democracy, Kurdish genocide, staunch trend to make the
86 JJJ : The Kurdish and Armenian issues could be solved with just a single gesture from the government. Withdrawing from Cyprus is a must, the Turkish govern
87 Post contains images OzGlobal : I second the motion. Apart from the intellectuals in parts of Istanbul and their bourgeois associates, Turkey, notwithstanding the 'secular' veneer,
88 Asturias : True, I agree. However, they will not reform, they will not end their illegal occupation of Cyprus etc. Let's just say that this is my prediction. I
89 Post contains images Asturias : Well said! Thanks for your posts and your wise words. You, like many many other good people have the insight to see how impossible and doomed to fail
90 Prebennorholm : Dear Pilotaydin, a Turkey becoming an EU member is a Turkey in which secularism needs no "protection". It's a Turkey in which secularism is as natura
91 Post contains links WSOY : If you remember there was a big fight over the mention of God (the monotheist God) during the preparation of the EU constitution. The constitution wa
92 ME AVN FAN : A) Cyprus in 1974 was NOT an EEC-country, and B) a country where a group of officers just had toppled President Makarios and wanted to join Greece, a
93 MD11Engineer : Don't forget that back then the Greece, with which the Greek officers in Cyprus wanted to join up was a rightwing military dictatorship, which also w
94 Post contains images L410Turbolet : Using your logic Mexico should become immediately a US state because of its huge minority. I don't see how Turkish minority in Germany or elsewhere i
95 Slz396 : Turkey is indeed not the successor to the Ottoman Empire, yet it is the nation which naturally flows from the Ottoman Empire, being situated within t
96 JJJ : Again: there was NO such 'Turkish part'. It was a mixed country in which lines were drawn following the successes and defeats of a military campaign.
97 Banco : Why not? Either you believe in free trade, or you don't. I fear you don't. Because it shouldn't be concentrating on the political side, that's why. A
98 JJJ : Greek cypriots voted mostly for the no because the reunification plan was basically keeping the statu quo under a single Cypriot flag, there was no g
99 Banco : That's true. But the point remains that had the EU made the resolution of the Cyprus issue conditional for entry, it would have forced them down the
100 L410Turbolet : Three years since the recent expansion only proved how rushed the whole process was. Admission of 10+2 countries was a headache, which the EU has and
101 Post contains images Banco : Well, that is true. But then, I'm not calling for integration, am I? Not really. It's only relatively recently that they've made serious efforts to g
102 Post contains images Pelican : Well, Germany is indeed the successor of the "Third Reich". On legal terms it is identical with the "Third Reich" limited by new borders. No one is d
103 Banco : Not quite true, actually. German ships shelled the British coast a number of times in 1914. And the blockade against international law? Yet a blockad
104 Post contains images MD11Engineer : And references to wars 400 years ago... Jan
105 JJJ : Perhaps the only thing I am with the Greek Cypriots is that a political solution can't be reached while one of the parts is holding the stick (and a
106 Banco : It's always the way, though. Someone has to make the first move. To take a seemingly appallingly intractable dispute in Northern Ireland, most of us
107 Pelican : Yep to cut a country from food supply with a sea blockade was already against international law in 1914. And yes the German navy reacted and tried to
108 JJJ : EU technocrats probably saw Turkish membership too far away at that time, and didn't want it to interfere with Cypriot membership. Part of Cyprus bei
109 Banco : Hmm. I think invading a neutral country might be ahead of that one. It's not a "you did this, we did that" scenario. Take German policy out of the eq
110 Banco : I don't think it needed to be directly about Turkish membership, it could simply have been an attempt to solve a problem. Whether Turkey joins or not
111 JJJ : I think so. If you ask me, I don't think anybody in Cyprus or Turkey is making a great deal of effort in order to _really_ solve the situation, and t
112 Post contains images ME AVN FAN : IF Mexico adopts English as its national language, and MOST OF ALL adopts the US telephone system, making phone-calls there less tiring, why not ! -
113 OzGlobal : I would suggest geography is the first, necessary, but far from sufficient condition for membership of the EU or "Europe". Like it or not, the realit
114 OzGlobal : And another thing, since when has membership of a 'club' been a matter of justice? Fair trade, respect for life, diversity and assistance with materi
115 Post contains images Asturias : This isn't a free trade discussion. If it were, we wouldn't be talking about the EU, which is way more than a free trade organization. As well you kn
116 JJJ : You did not understand my post. Cypriot citizens of Turkish origin made up 18% of the total Cypriot population, this percentage rose up to a whopping
117 Post contains images Banco : The UK certainly wasn't part of that. And yet we are apparently "European". So that's just trying to fit the rules to exclude who you want. I see. We
118 OzGlobal : Parenthesis was intended as and aside, not directed specifically at you, but to avoid pages of uninformed debate which has already been rehashed on t
119 Banco : Very well. Accepted and understood. Look, I really don't want to get on to British attitudes to the EU, not because I can't, but because it will move
120 ME AVN FAN : The Turkish-Cypriots in the North had a far higher concentration, and so the percentage points were somewhat lower. It for still was enormous. But it
121 OA412 : Patently False! As others have mentioned there was no pre-1974 Turkish part of Cyprus. That was created during the 2 Turkish invasions in 1974 which,
122 ME AVN FAN : Nobody said this ! But there were Turkish-Cypriots, there were "zones/sectors" on the island, and there was the Treaty of Zurich with Turkey as one o
123 Post contains images Kay : But Sarkozy said during the French presidential debate: "Turkey is part of Minor Asia"! Kay
124 JJJ : Have a cite for that? Over 150.000 Greek-cypriots forcibly moved to the South, while the pre-war population was less than 200.000 people. Turkish Cyp
125 Pelican : Russia didn't become a British ally because they feared Germany. Russia and Prussia were long time allies (former holy alliance). The Russians didn't
126 Asturias : To clear up a few points: This is where we agree, free trade is the cornerstone of the EU and most of what it does externally has to do with trade. No
127 OA412 : You have made several allusions to this throughout the thread. Absolutely and nowhere did I or anyone else deny the existence of such. Again true. Ho
128 Post contains images ME AVN FAN : President Sarkozy on his first presidential visit to Turkey will say "I always said that Turkey is part of Europe" - Right, and the idea that they wo
129 JJJ : I'm sorry? They took over what was mostly Greek-owned property by the force of an illegal military invasion. Anyway, "what they have built up" can't
130 N229NW : Turkey has a long way to go to be ready for EU membership--and the issue of "national pride" is a major barrier there to dealing with the past and the
131 Post contains images Dougloid : It is a rare treat being able to sit on the sidelines and scroll through a 130 and counting post thread and not once hear anyone say it so let me be t
132 Post contains images L410Turbolet : Re-read Asturias' reply # 49. Calls for some sort of parallel Sharia-based legal system, polls showing that those who condoned and saw London bombing
133 Post contains images Asturias : Hehe, it is something along the lines of "if the people in question are Muslims, I side with them no matter what their side actually is" I can unders
134 Post contains links Klaus : If only! In reality, the extreme-right polish "Radio Sharia" - pardon - "Maria" promotes a violently reactionary political program allegedly based on
135 WSOY : Yet another case where people cast their votes wrong within the EU. Blinded by propaganda, as usual.
136 Asturias : So am I and therein lies the crux of the matter and a fundamental difference between Poland and Turkey. One of many. saludos Asturias
137 ME AVN FAN : It is 3 decades ago. And the Turkish Cypriots HAVE built up quite a lot, it is absolutely impressing. Also Greek-Cypriots leave the country "in drove
138 Klaus : Not really. Both in Poland and in Turkey you've got a government propped up by explicitly religiously labeled parties; An in both countries the major
139 Beaucaire : To make a long story short - with Nicolas Sarkozy in the Elysée the chances of Turkey progressing in their quest for Europe are nil.... He has been k
140 Asturias : Not really, in Turkey yes. In Poland, no. That being one - but just one - of the major issues. I don't really care at this moment that Turkey is fall
141 Post contains images Klaus : In both cases the lunatic fringe is just that, even if it is wider in Turkey (apparently). It's not far behind. The "Radio Maria" crowd is sickening
142 Post contains images Dougloid : Thank you kindly. I was beginning to feel as if people were ignoring us yanquis. You have made my day kind sir.
143 Post contains links and images ME AVN FAN : - the problem has NOT been Mr Chirac and will NOT be Nicolas Sarkozy, THE problem is and will be the Armenian matter. And this is something, Turkey H
144 Post contains images Klaus : While we apparently agree on the other points, we disagree on that one!
145 Beaucaire : Gûl has abandoned his plans to become the next president after this morning's vote was again not validated to to oposition members not attending the
146 BA : I don't think Turkey is ready to join the EU. They have a lot of domestic issues to deal with and international issues as well such as the issue of Cy
147 LOT767-300ER : Yea they were a few km from Vienna, then they got their asses handed to them..by Sobieski. I would never want Turkey in the EU or nowhere near it. RO
148 JJJ : First, Cyprus (Greek part) has a positive migration rate and very low unemployment rate (around 5%), economically is on track to join the eurozone ne
149 ME AVN FAN : Turkey IS "near it". In other words, Turkey has an association-agreement with the E.U., which has been in force for decades, Turkey is member of the
150 JJJ : So the issue is solved then, that probably explains the overwhelming majority of the yes in the 2004 referendum. Oh, wait....
151 Post contains links and images Asturias : What I so hate when replying to you is that I must constantly waste my time correcting your fantasies! Why is this that you cannot discuss things wit
152 Post contains links ME AVN FAN : Here the members of the Council of Europe (CoE) : The Council of Europe's Member States 46 MEMBER STATES Albania (13.07.1995) Andorra (10.11.1994) Ar
153 ME AVN FAN : - *************************************************************************************************** - - Turkey has been a European Union (then the
154 Post contains links ME AVN FAN : People may give a look into these links : - www.bilaterals.org/IMG/pdf/EU-MA_FTA-2.pdf - www.bilaterals.org/IMG/pdf/EU-DZ_FTA.pdf - www.bilaterals.org
155 Post contains images Asturias : You just do not understand.. do you? I don't like to repeat myself, BUT you are NOT getting one SIMPLE thing. You were utterly and completely WRONG.
156 Post contains images ME AVN FAN : simply a wrong translation. I apologize, as I definitely meant the "Council of Europe" - quite to the contrary, I confirmed that the Europarat is NOT
157 Post contains links Asturias : Apology accepted, sir. This is not the first time though: Israel In The EU? (by RootsAir Sep 29 2005 in Non Aviation) (reply no. 45) Weeeelll not exa
158 ME AVN FAN : THAT would be a MERGER in the future, but NOT Arab countries joining the E.U. ! a difference ! as I said, it would then become the European-Arab Unio
159 Post contains images Asturias : Yes, how can I forget There are only two directions for the EU at the moment. Consolidation or destruction. The former means, among other things, no
160 N229NW : I'm glad to see this thread has degenerated into a contest to see who can put more words in capitals! It's sad that there is so much xenophobic garbag
161 Asturias : I love the smell of misplaced sarcasm in the evening! I love the smell of political correctness in the evening! I love the smell of historical revisi
162 LOT767-300ER : Historically rival empires, millenia year old feelings is something Im afraid you wont understand as an American, much less a politically correct one
163 Cedars747 : Hehe! it would be the perfect idea to exchange EAU with PETROL ! Alex!!!
164 Asturias : Basically, yes! You are completely on the money. Key word being Christian *values*. A nation with Christian values does not illegally occupy, does no
165 Post contains links N229NW : What cute one-liners! Utter and complete bullsh*t though. Here's a place to start: At the end of the 15th century, a large number of Sephardic Jews f
166 Asturias : You must be sarcasm impaired. I can only assume. However, I can't expect you to understand why I would succumb to use capitals when replying to ME AV
167 N229NW : Umm...I'll try to spell this out the way you have been for ME AVN FAN here, with plenty of capitals: it's relevant because 1.) It was relevant in the
168 Post contains images Asturias : So you were just posting to criticize Europe? LOT767-300ER was putting the relationship between Europe and Turkey into historical context, which he d
169 LOT767-300ER : What hatred? I have no hatred for anyone here or any country. I only said that Turkey does not belong in the EU and never will....and I dont want the
170 Post contains images Kay : Eventhough I agree that he is playing nice-boy since a few weeks completely, and probably for a bit of time to come, still he is one to always come b
171 ME AVN FAN : - If for instance, countries like Ukraine, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia, are up to join the E.U., I think the E.U. should take them with open arms. N
172 Asturias : Yes, they do carry many of the problems identical with Turkey. But it is irrelevant, none of them are economically ready to join the EU, so it is a m
173 ME AVN FAN : The three Caucasian republics will be economically ready in a few years time, with the Ukraine it is uncertain. To regard something, possibly just 5
174 Asturias : No, not really. History tells us differently and you can't see the future. Your comment is as worthless as when Cheney saying 'the insurgency is in i
175 ME AVN FAN : - even if being boring, Turkey in the end will be admitted. - - one of their wishes is to have their country being accepted as just another European
176 Asturias : No, they won't, if only because there will be no more expansion of the EU. That era has ended. Well, you can't have your cake and eat it too. Which d
177 ME AVN FAN : compared with Bulgaria, Greece, Spain, Portugal . - Algeria has become democratic, Morocco has a democratically elected parliament, as has Jordan, an
178 Post contains images Asturias : Indeed, that must explain why the GDP of Turkey is so high? A little over $9000 per capita, while all the countries you mentioned have significantly
179 LOT767-300ER : Where do you get the idea that the population of Central and Eastern Europe would give a freaking rats behind if it was 1 or 1 million Muslims acting
180 N229NW : Holy crap. Way to show your true colors. The suggest deletion button is for wimps. I hope to God that no one with weak nerves suggests delete on your
181 N229NW : And one other thing: Mistaken assumption number 1. I think the EU is a pretty great thing overall, if bureaucratically problematic at times. You're ri
182 Kyril : I think LOT767-300ER is representing what, sadly, is a part (I hope not the majority) of Eastern Europe newcomers population. Especially Poland who's
183 Post contains images L410Turbolet : Milan Baros could tell stories...
184 Post contains images Asturias : I wrote 'Europe' not 'EU', there is some difference. So I assume that you were just posting to criticize Europe.. if not, well then what was the poin
185 Post contains images N229NW : I have to go now; I don't have time to respond to your more valid arguments, so I'll start with the ones that are hopeless (isn't that the easy way ou
186 LOT767-300ER : Lovely tolerant people? Great, I am not a Nazi German circa 1940s. BS 100%. Go cry to your mom, I am neither racist, xenophobic or provoke hate. I am
187 LOT767-300ER : I didnt make any of those claims....except that they were a muslim hord/empire in 1680s which they were. Sadly, the French government and people have
188 Asturias : I'm not defending his point, rather questioning your motivations for criticizing Europe as a whole. The reason being, of course, to discern how you d
189 Post contains images Boeing4ever : Hilarious and utterly stupid. Apples and Oranges Klaus...sorry but the comparison doesn't fly. As bad as the Spuds are, there isn't much danger at al
190 Post contains images LOT767-300ER : Hopefully.... Sikorsky is already buying up shop everywhere! If your wife wants Turkish membership in the EU she is in the small minority, her right
191 Post contains images Boeing4ever : Indeed I can. Chicago is a truly World Class city with hundreds of backgrounds coming together in one urban area. A whole seperate debate...the unfor
192 Canuckpaxguy : Turkey needs unanimous agreement from EU member states. Based on some of the above reasons alone, (of which I admit to only reading a few), it may nev
193 Post contains images ME AVN FAN : - your farts are irrelevant - a word about "les emotions fortes" : my post above originally was much longer and included a harsh emotional remark, whi
194 Kyril : Normally every "evident" religious sign should not pass the fence of a school, high school etc. Veils are forbidden, kippas are forbidden too. Jewelr
195 Asturias : Hehe, granted it was long, but then I write my own texts, instead of copy/pasting vomits of "information". That would be your department "ME AVN FAN"
196 N229NW : No? But you're happy without any comment to let him say the most offensive possible things about Muslims, Jews, Gypsies, Vietnamese, etc, while you a
197 L410Turbolet : Then why don't stay where you are!?
198 Asturias : The topic is: 'Any chance of Turkey joining the EU'. General discussion on racism isn't relative to this topic of discussion. Perhaps a new thread on
199 N229NW : Asturias, your whole post is misdirected here. Not only have you once again chosen to misunderstand half of many simple arguments--including feeling t
200 TuRbUleNc3 : I have mixed feelings about turkey joining the EU. What will be will be though.
201 Asturias : No, I wrote that Turkey will have to face it's past regardless. EU membership or no. At least it will never become a first world country if it doesn'
202 N229NW : Agreed (see we agree on some things), at least they should have been the real topic of conversation here. The fact that they weren't was because othe
203 Kyril : Some say that many EU countries prefered the Armenian genocide issue as main requirements over any other of the so called laundry list for a twisted
204 Post contains images Asturias : Hehe, cute idea. I myself, have great reservations for the idea that the EU countries would trust solely on supposed Turkish nationalism to absolve t
205 Post contains images Boeing4ever : The key difference though is that the "radical" Catholic prelates have not preached death and violence...or if they have, such statements fall on dea
206 LOT767-300ER : No, but Polskie Zaklady Lotnicze does. Yes, deported all of them because the majority of them built up shantytowns and started selling stuff out of p
207 Post contains images LOT767-300ER : Maybe you, as a true Czech citizen with roots can offer us your views on Turkey...and as a matter of fact...gypsies too.
208 Post contains images Boeing4ever : Tomato, Tomahto. As long as Sikorsky doesn't trash the product line and replace it with nothing but H-60s, then this will be a positive investment. B
209 Post contains images LOT767-300ER : True
210 L410Turbolet : Everything what I wanted to say has been said already. My views in 80% correspond with those expressed by Asturias I would but don't want to take the
211 ME AVN FAN : Is the USA a Catholic country with a history of a violent oppression of the Protestants, driving them out of the country ? Is the USA a country where
212 Kyril : I think creationism theories, virgin stuff or preaching lessons are unacceptable religious beliefs that have no place in public schools, and in some
213 Post contains links LOT767-300ER : Who cares what the concentration is, hell the USA has 1-2 million more muslims than France to begin with. I challange you to drive around parts of De
214 Kyril : You misunderstood me as I might have been not clear enough or faulty in my english, as I was refering to "non-public with subsidies" when I said non-
215 Post contains links and images Boeing4ever : No, it's a Protestant country with a violent history of oppression of Blacks, Catholics, Jews, Asians, Hispanics, etc. Poland is pretty damn tolerant
216 ME AVN FAN : Drive around or walk around certain areas north of the Gare du Nord in Paris, or in the Quartier Montmartre, or just north-northwest of the old harbo
217 Post contains images Boeing4ever : So if this quote is read correctly, they were (both have passed) real Catholics like the hypocrite who betrayed his country!? Hopefully for your sake
218 ME AVN FAN : - By "real" I mean the positive side ! People trying to practice their ideals and their idea of decency. Quite unlike that hypocrite. If you are look
219 Post contains images Boeing4ever : Good that that's been cleared up then. B4e-Forever New Frontiers
220 N229NW : OK: I was really going to let this thread die, since it has gone sooo far off topic, but it refuses to die anyway (now we’re onto the French sc
221 LOT767-300ER : I agree with that. Same as Detroit. Again, so you have to enact laws because the minority is a bigger one? An American with Jewish background and a w
222 N229NW : Reading comprehension. Try again. You misread both parts. That one's my bad. I didn't clarify, I meant in America. Same point. Well, I'll give you th
223 LOT767-300ER : Hardly. I cant think of many gypsies ive interacted with in stores, since everyone is pale white in Poland you can pretty much tell a non-Slavic pers
224 ME AVN FAN : - Because the minority is a far bigger one, and because France by constitution is VERY secularist out of principle, it IS necessary. Another aspect i
225 Asturias : That is the same misunderstanding that causes so much discontent with many Muslims in Europe in general and France in particular. France has, namely,
226 ME AVN FAN : you in a way MIsunderstand something. France in a way is NOT following, it in a way is leading the pack. The IMA is one of the most prestigeous Arab
227 Post contains images LOT767-300ER : You are one of the few...and maybe they thought you were on of their own since your not a pale Slav   Hardly, The sentiment of Jews in Poland was no
228 Post contains images ThereAndBack : Since they are the same muslims who reside in Turkey today... So with this logic all Jewish people should have harsh feelings towards all Germans. No
229 Post contains images Boeing4ever : Actually, looking at how this discussion has matured, I do tend to agree that Turkey shouldn't bother with EU membership. Clearly, between the "under
230 ME AVN FAN : Sorry, I am definitely NOT able to give any judgments about how it was in Poland, I referred to how it was in countries like Germany (whatever is mea
231 Allstarflyer : From what I read here, the northern part of Cyprus seems to be a picture of Turkish colonialism. I've wondered what it's like on the northern side, a
232 MD11Engineer : And 1920s Italian penal code... I think that in Atatuerk's time, just after WW1, a strong nationalism in Turkey was necessary (after Turkey had shed
233 ME AVN FAN : Well, the two nationalities BEFORE 1974 lived partially "mixed" and partially in "sectors" and since then separated. Fact is that the Turkish-Cypriot
234 Asturias : And yet you choose to live in a wealthy European country, in stead of this nigh paradise on Earth, occupied north Cyprus. Or even chosen the fantasti
235 Asturias : Don't get too hung up on political correctness. It doesn't apply to me. I can feel what I like and it can affect my opinions. And my opionions on thi
236 ThereAndBack : I don't care that you have your opinion but it's the way you say things in the rudest way possible bothers me. You think your opinion matters? No...
237 Asturias : I am honest and to the point. You're confusing being polite and being politically correct. In fact my opinion matters in this case, because my vote c
238 ME AVN FAN : I did not and do NOT spread any false information - you of course have the democratic right to try to incite your national government into vetoing an
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